![]() |
So I really want to better arm myself
What's the cheapest way to get a gun(atm I'm thinking .45 acp) ? I live in AZ with gun shows every couple of months. I take it that's the cheapest? Or would random internet listings be cheaper?
|
What will you be using the pistol for? Nighstand? Carry? Target? Competition? You sure .45ACP is the right caliber for you?
I find the internet is the best place to pick up deals (Got Plan9 a sweet deal on a G19), and there are usually a lot of good deals floating around. |
Best place to shop for bargains right now is GunBroker.com. Look for the auctions listed as "No Reserve." An N/R auction sells for the highest bid no matter what, even if the item sells for a penny (which I have seen happen).
Gun-shows are not usually a good deal in my experience, unless you find -just- the right person. A lot of gun-show sellers (FFL and Private) have a very bad case of "Book On The Brain" and will get extremely upset if you suggest that their shot-out Llama .45 might be worth slightly less than the $700.00 (or equally insane figure) they're convinced it'll sell for. They see the "100% Condition New/Retail" price in the Blue Book, immediately decide that since their gun still fires and still has one grip-panel that it -is- 100%, and get very angry when informed otherwise. Check the shows out, because you never know, but don't bet on finding any deals. |
Really, the .45 has a lot of great options available these days, glock, xd, ruger, and plain old yankee fist 1911 to name a few- research any weapon you want to buy- and if possible shoot a friends or try it out at a rental range- if you live in a gun friendly state, gun shows can, sometimes, provide you with a great deal every now and then, but be wary and informed- check prices on gun broker and auction arms, of COMPLETED auctions, and get an idea of what you are looking at- likewise check out online and forum discussions on your chosen weapon to see if there are any hidden problems or known defects..... on that theme, I personally never buy the first run of any weapon, as they tend to have bugs still to work out on them at the early release stage- you might get lucky, but I prefer to let others find all the flaws for me, before I commit my money...
|
I found some good deals on this site: www.ammoengine.com
They crawl the web at night (I think) and post what they found. Yeah you pay for shipping, but it's often less than with tax at a local store. Not sure.45 is the best choice. Expensive rounds :( |
Big important thing: when you're price-checking guns, look at what they've actually sold for, look at what people have actually -paid- for the things. What Dealer Sweatsox -wants- for the gun is irrelevant. What matters is what the market will actually support. Again, checking out the "No Reserve" auctions on GB is a great way to do this because it gives you real-time feedback on what the market will pay for a given item. I just recently had to bust a guy's chops because he kept insisting that his used M1A was worth the full MSRP of $2300.00, despite the fact that they're actually -selling- for around half of that.
"But they're listed on GunBroker for $2300!" >>"Yeah, but are any of them actually -selling- at that price? Is anybody actually -paying- that?" "No, but..." >>"What's the most they -are- paying?" "....$1500." >>"Exactly. So why would I pay $2300 for a gun that I'll only be able to sell for $1500?" "But Springfield Armory says!...." You can see how this turned out. |
Thanks for the info.
I don't know, there's just something that I like and feels right about a .45. Its for concealed carry, combined with home defense. Yes I know, not the best thing for home defense, but I'm on a budget. Also, I know its not quite the same, but I have a cheaper gun I use to target practice with. |
You could find a dozen guns better suited to CCW than a 45...
I love my 45, and I'm a big guy anyway so I have the mass to hide it but even a small frame 45 is a decent sized weapon, and not the best choice for everybody's carry. It's definitely going to stop whoever you shoot with it, but it may well "stop" a neighbor if you miss the bad guy. That said, if it "feels right" for you you can find 9mm (much cheaper rounds) in a full sized 1911 style frame. |
Discount Guns for Sale - Buds Gun Shop that's where I like to shop. If you want basic weapons for a decent price get a Glock and an 870. I wouldn't carry a 45, but that's your choice.
|
Why all the .45 hate? Because its expensive and big? I already said I won't be shooting it much. I've been hunting and shooting guns since I was eight years old. I have pretty good accuracy already (tho yes, each gun shoots a bit different, but it'd only take me a few times at the range a year to keep it honed).
Keep in mind, I can already conceal sidearms, when I say CC I mean, carry it, but not overtly, not as in, perfectly in secret. So I don't mind if it bulges a bit. Plus, what about a snub nose revolver? That shouldn't be too hard to conceal last I checked. But its been awhile since I've shot a .45. |
I've purchased several guns from Bud's Gunshop. Generally they'll beat most local dealers on new gun prices. Even after paying for ffl transfer, I've still payed less. Good luck!
|
I don't own a .45 (opted for a 44 mag) but when I go to the range, the guys shooting the .45's seem to have a lot of jamming problems.
Is this a known issue with the 45? I don't have anything against the 45. I would like one, a nice 1911 model, but then I have yet another caliber to buy and stockpile for the end of days. I've tried to keep my semi-auto pistols and rifles to .40 so I can just grab a box and know it's the right round. But then again, if you have a 9 and a 45...I suspect you'll know the difference when you grab a round ;) |
Quote:
If price is a concern, you can definitely get into a .45 caliber for cheaper than a snub nose .357. Look on backpage.com, there are constantly local firearms listed for private sale, and I saw a couple compact frame 1911's on there the other day. Your best deal is going to be the arizonashooting.com classifieds, but you can't get access to those without a minimum post count, and if you were already active there, you'd already know that. |
Quote:
|
Huh, that's weird I could have sworn I've held and shot a 45 revolver. Well its not like I know ammo by sight. It was my sister's boyfriend's gun. He told me it was a 45, guess he was wrong.
|
There are two kinds of common .45.
.45 ACP: Most commonly used in semi-auto pistols and a few carbines/subguns. There are .45ACP revolvers: the Smith & Wesson and Colt "Victory" Model 1917 and Smith Mdl 25 are the best known. .45ACP requires half-moon or full-moon clips to work in most revolvers. .45ACP revolvers can also use the special .45 Auto Rim (which is nothing but a .45ACP cartridge with an old-fashioned rim for use in revolvers). .45 Long Colt: 130+ years old and still kicking. The first of the true Big Bore American revolver rounds to achieve any commercial success. Still popular with Cowboy Action shooters, and used in various double-action Taurus and Smtih & Wesson revolvers still. Can be loaded to slightly exceed the .44 Remington Magnum, but these uber-hot loads should only be used with Ruger revolvers or very heavily-built lever-action rifles. And that's not counting .45 Schofield, .455 Webley, .45 Win Mag or all the other oddball/obsolete .45 loadings out there. |
Quote:
Also, there is not an easily concealable snub nose that I am aware of that is chambered in any .45 revolver caliber. I suppose the "Judge" might qualify as a snub nose, but I think you could conceal a full sized 1911 considerably easier. |
Actually...
S&W makes some really nice revolvers chambered in .45 ACP. You can have your cake and eat it too, apparently. The .45 is ideally suited for use with half moon or full moon clips for rapid reloads while traditional rimmed revolver cartridges don't work with the clips. For this reason .45 and some other 'auto' calibers are becoming very popular among competitive revolver shooters. |
Quote:
Do you believe that having the 'bulge' showing would be a deterrent? As in: If some bad guy who wants to do me harm sees the obvious 'gun bulge silhouette' they'd be less likely to mess with me? |
Quote:
First, derailing the home intruder thread, now, inferring an intent to show off from carrying a pistol? ================================= OP: Why the .45ACP hate? I don't hate it, but the round tends to be big and fat, so for *most* .45ACP pistols are larger, or, have less magazine capacity. (unless you're talking snubnose revolvers--which I am unfamiliar with). I love the .45, but I don't think it should be your first choice as a general purpose pistol. |
? I wasn't inferring what you say.
I used to know a few people who did prefer to have it obvious they were carrying. It made them feel safer. I was wondering if he felt the same way. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Dunedan is THE resident authority at finding the best deals on firearms. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
I heartily agree with Walt's statement:
"Shooting is a perishable skill. If you won't be practicing regularly, you have no business carrying a gun." "I don't understand. When you say you can already conceal a handgun, do you mean that you already have a concealed carry permit or that the law doesn't require one where you live? Walt, I was going to ask this ^^^ question also. Looking over Zeraph's previous posts on other threads, I recall him saying he didn't have a CCW, back in April/Mayish of '09. Perhaps that has changed since then. ? |
Quote:
|
Rock Island Armory makes a great, inexpensive, 1911. The fullsize GI goes for $380 or so, and a compact for $390. Personally, I carry a RIA Tactical that ran me $420 delivered, then I put Wilson parts in it, not that it was at all necessary, it was mostly cosmetic. Stock it shot one inch three-round groups offhand at fifteen yards with cheap reloads. Slide to frame fit is better than my Springfield and Colts, but no so tight that it causes stoppages. The only functional change I've made is to increase the stock spring from 16lb to 18.5lb to more reliably feed JHP and reduce peening between slide, buffer, and frame with +P defense ammo.
Centerfire Systems sell them generally for the best price online The only downside is it's heavy, steel frame instead of alloy, but mechanically excellent. The frame is cast instead of forged like other 1911s, but with modern forgings that should not at all present issue. |
...and $30-$80 more will get you a plastic .45 that holds twice as many rounds and doesn't feature a completely unnecessary grip safety (unless you're an XD guy) or require the addition of Fancy Brand Name tuner parts. The 1911 is a fine hobby gun but given Zeraph's level of experience with firearms (minimal), his stated desire to practice (rarely), and requirements for use (a .45 handgun for self-defense) he'd be better served with a dummy-proof polymer-framed automatic like a Glock 21 or S&W M&P 45. Don't buy the commuter an old project muscle car to restore... get him a damn commuter car.
|
I love and carry a 1911, but I second Plan9.
I can't advise someone who isn't going to really put time into tweaking their weapon to get a 1911. It is a great gun, but for pure simple reliability and firepower you can't beat the mainstream-manufacturer's polymer pistols. |
I didn't read it all, but yes, in my state everyone can CCW.
edit: im surprised you all remembered that, heh |
The RIA 1911, as well as most all others, work great out of the box. They do not require additional parts. I agree that the grip safety is unnecessary but it is in no way a demerit to the platform. The only malfunction you'll find with a poorly fitted grip safety is that it fails to disconnect the action, and not fail in a manner that makes the gun nonfunctional. The only complication between the 1911 and a Glock is a manual safety. If you can't get your head around that I'm not entirely sure you should be within reach of lethal force.
Length is easy to conceal, thickness isn't, which is the primary reason I pack a 1911 with slim grip panels on it. If I wasn't going to carry the 1911 it'd probably be my USP .45, which can also be carried in condition one. |
Quote:
I maintain my position that you have absolutely no business carrying a gun for self-defense because you will not be practicing with it regularly. That being said, I'm suggesting the 9mm because you're not going to listen to me and will carry a pistol anyways. The 45 ACP (and the 1911 platform) takes quite a bit of regular practice to shoot it proficiently. The 9mm is adequate for what you need and is much more user-friendly and forgiving than a .45 ACP. |
You really assume much. Some people are just better shots than others. but thanks for the advice
|
Quote:
You said that you only plan on practicing a couple of times a year. I don't care who you are or how much natural talent you have. A couple of times a year is not going to cut it. |
Quote:
The heavier, longer pull of a Glock trigger generally makes people shoot low and to one side if they're inexperienced shooters because of jerking the trigger or tightening their grip while they bring back that heavier trigger. Furthermore, the grip angle between a third generation Glock and a 1911 is only a difference of four degrees, so one doesn't point more intuitively than another. A Glock 19 magazine is 15 rounds, all modern 1911 magazines are 8 rounds. Though it's considerably more, not quite twice the capacity. My wife learned to shoot on a 1911, she's of small stature and recoil shy, but grouped 3" at 15 yards with only the slightest of instruction. You should probably have higher expectations of Zeraph's abilities. On another note, the Glock 19 is very affordable and it's a lot cheaper to practice with, as well as appreciably lighter than a 1911, and there are quite a few holster options for it at very reasonable prices. The finish on it will also hold up better than stock parkerized finishes of the budget 1911s, especially when exposed to a lot of drawing from a kydex holster. |
I second the G19. It's a much better all around platform.
I dislike the 1911 for carry (although I love the platform) because of its weight and magazine capacity. The whole cocked & locked w/ a light trigger thing makes me feel uncomfortable too (YMMV). I started out as a 1911 type of guy, but gravitated towards the polymer wonders, and now carry a G19. Ammunition's cheaper, you have more mag capacity, and polymer guns are generally more idiot proof than your average 1911. As a new shooter, the grip safety on the 1911 has caused me a few 'HERP-DERP' moments in matches where I drew the pistol and couldn't fire because of a less-than-perfect grip (so something you have to make sure you train around if you carry). I also find it easier to conceal my G19, although, other individuals find the slim 1911 easier to conceal. The 1911 is also *heavy* so you'll always know it's there, whereas w/ the G19, it's light enough that I can forget that it's there. If you MUST MUST go .45ACP, try to compare shooting guns like the FN45, M&P45, and HK45 alongside the 1911 before you decide. Sometimes choosing a carry gun isn't about shooting 1" groups at 25 yards--according to statistics, a defensive shootout will take place within less than 15 feet--so factors like ease of carry and familiarity will likely matter more than accuracy. Finally, a heart is about fist sized, so, speed and accuracy within a fist sized group is what I shoot for. (:D Gets ready to get schooled by people who actually shoot for a living). ETA: 3/5 1911s I've shot required some form of gunsmithing to run 100%, so keep that in mind, too (although that may be attributable to cheap WWB with a slightly longer OAL and weaker load than Blazer .45ACP loads). |
Quote:
You don't know dick. And it's okay. Fix it. You might want to consider investing in formal pistol training. There are plenty of places in Arizona to get such training and it is more than worth your money to learn how to do various drills with your pistol under stress while an experienced instructor observes. It'll cost ~$200 and should leave you wanting more. At the end of the day shooting becomes less about the gun and more about you. |
point taken Plan9. I'll look into it.
although if everyone had to go through that just to own a gun, we'd only have like 1% of the population or less owning them. |
Did you completely miss the point?
EDIT: The Point I did all of those things and it didn't make me good with guns. Taking classes with guns made me good with guns. It's that simple. |
Quote:
Yeah I get the point. Although it surprises me the military isn't more profficient. Oh wait, not really heh. |
You way misquoted. Please don't do that.
He was just saying you need to practice more than twice a year. Plan 9's trying to help you here. You live in a state where you don't even have to take a basic test to carry concealed. (& those tests are blargh way not enough training anyhows, different topic.) A good gun class will train & help you understand how to function when your fight/flight adrenaline is pumping during a variety of scenarios, whether it's in bed at night, or on the street. Daylight vs. Night, etc, and also how to handle & become familiar with your gun blindfolded. It's worth the investment. It truly is. I'm not military trained. I don't know the pros & cons of the basic training methods. Yeah, sure, I've read what other military folk have posted here & I hear that the training isn't as thorough as it should be. So, I'm going to quote Plan 9 again: "Taking classes with guns made me good with guns. It's that simple." Yep. |
Just FYI I have taken a gun safety class and been around a lot of well informed gun nuts. No the class was not as thorough as those referenced above, but just thought I'd put that out there. Its not like I'm completely opposed to gun classes or anything. Its just in MY particular case I'm not sure if I want to take the time and money. I've already had training in functioning with major adrenaline pumping while trying not to get hit hard with a bokken (which hurts).
Yes it'd be better if I did practice more and take lots of classes. But it'd also be better if I trained every single day, spent some time in the military, etc. Gotta draw the line somewhere. Luckily its up to me and not random joe's opinions. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
But seriously, this is getting me into the mood to do some training when I've got the money for it. Don't get me wrong, I'd jump at the opportunity to train. I'm just shit broke (which means I aint buying the gun anytime soon, so sooth to your worries). Also, totally forgot about this, but what do you guys think of that one revolver that fires .410 buckshot? I heard from an old man who used to teach courses that was a nice one for CC self defense. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I wouldn't be getting it for mixed rounds. I was just thinking the .410 (buckshot/defensive shot or whatever the best is called) shotgun shells would be good ballistics for self defense, no? Does anyone know what they compare to? What caliber is closest I mean in doing damage? PS also dunedan (sp?) makes good points. It sounds like many people dislike it more out of snobbery. Even if it is marketed toward the "mall ninjas" that doesn't automatically make it a bad gun. |
I'm actually curious as to how .410 buck performs on gelatin.
|
I think the Dunedan is a small arms genius, but I'll disagree with his analysis of the Taurus Judge until the day I stop posting on TFP.
|
Quote:
If there's something I'm missing please explain. |
Lemme break this down for you Barney style since the other thread apparently failed to maintain your TL;DR attention span:
- Two generic-rare and largely antiquated calibers: .45 Long Colt and .410 shotgun (harder to find, more expensive than 9/40/45) - Monstrous handgun twice as bulky as a G34 while holding less than a third of the ammo (not suited for concealed carry) - Double action revolver pull means you're either fighting a heavy trigger every time or having to cock the hammer (do those under stress) - Revolver offers increased reliability (in theory) over an automatic but at the cost of being slower/more awkward to reload under stress - Doesn't do anything that a G19 can't do better, faster and cheaper (scripture states that Jesus Christ himself carries a Glock 19) - May suffer from mechanical problems, Taurus is an iffy brand at best (hence "Lifetime Warranty" printed on everything they wave) I hope this Cliff's Notes version helps. If that doesn't clear it up, check out AR15.com, M4Carbine.net, etc. for reviews on this fugly beast. The Bubba Cannon is a junk gun cash cow fad and a whimsical toy, not something you use to defend yourself or your family. Do yourself a favor and buy a compact 9mm service pistol first. If you want something fun later, go for the Judge. It'll be fun for however long you shoot it before it becomes a safe queen / conversation piece. |
Yes, that helped. Thank you. Although I do hope dune weighs in as well.
edit: it was sort of an attention span thing....ive got a doctors appointment soon...my first prostate exam *shudder* |
Dunedan doesn't need to come in here and beat me up again with his side of the debate.
As retarded as I am, my palm still isn't big enough to cover my entire face. I wish it was. |
If you are stuck on the .45, the best I can recommend, within your price range, without going Glock, is a RIA/Armscor 1911. I have one in the compact model, and I have no complaints, other than the cost of ammunition...and the factory grips are absolutely fucking horrid. Besides that...go for it. That...Being...Said... and I'm fully aware that I'm beating a dead horse here, but...
Get some training. I know, you're a pretty good shot, and you're used to having some experience with dealing with stressful situations, potential home invasions, etc. etc. etc. yeah I get it...we all get it. Get some training. Plan9 has already said it better than anyone else can. |
Quote:
|
So I got my first bit of, no technically second bit of official training. Besides basics we worked on double tap. Really easy with a .22....not so much on the .45 or 12 gauge (that semi auto was really fun, he called it his zombie gun hehe).
Any advice for the guns that have more of a kick? |
Todd Jarrett does a good job of going over a few fundamentals. I watched this four years ago and it really helped. There's a lot more that goes in to fast accurate pistol shooting, but this video's a good start. |
Quote:
|
BTW I forgot to mention, it was super cool trying all his guns. There was this one, .50 another guy had that let us shoot it. He even had tracer rounds. Was frickin awesome.
|
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:39 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project