Zeraph

What's the cheapest way to get a gun(atm I'm thinking .45 acp) ? I live in AZ with gun shows every couple of months. I take it that's the cheapest? Or would random internet listings be cheaper?

KirStang

What will you be using the pistol for? Nighstand? Carry? Target? Competition? You sure .45ACP is the right caliber for you?

I find the internet is the best place to pick up deals (Got Plan9 a sweet deal on a G19), and there are usually a lot of good deals floating around.

The_Dunedan

Best place to shop for bargains right now is GunBroker.com. Look for the auctions listed as "No Reserve." An N/R auction sells for the highest bid no matter what, even if the item sells for a penny (which I have seen happen).

Gun-shows are not usually a good deal in my experience, unless you find -just- the right person. A lot of gun-show sellers (FFL and Private) have a very bad case of "Book On The Brain" and will get extremely upset if you suggest that their shot-out Llama .45 might be worth slightly less than the $700.00 (or equally insane figure) they're convinced it'll sell for. They see the "100% Condition New/Retail" price in the Blue Book, immediately decide that since their gun still fires and still has one grip-panel that it -is- 100%, and get very angry when informed otherwise. Check the shows out, because you never know, but don't bet on finding any deals.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Fire

Really, the .45 has a lot of great options available these days, glock, xd, ruger, and plain old yankee fist 1911 to name a few- research any weapon you want to buy- and if possible shoot a friends or try it out at a rental range- if you live in a gun friendly state, gun shows can, sometimes, provide you with a great deal every now and then, but be wary and informed- check prices on gun broker and auction arms, of COMPLETED auctions, and get an idea of what you are looking at- likewise check out online and forum discussions on your chosen weapon to see if there are any hidden problems or known defects..... on that theme, I personally never buy the first run of any weapon, as they tend to have bugs still to work out on them at the early release stage- you might get lucky, but I prefer to let others find all the flaws for me, before I commit my money...

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Mood the more as our might lessens

Latex Ren

I found some good deals on this site: www.ammoengine.com

They crawl the web at night (I think) and post what they found. Yeah you pay for shipping, but it's often less than with tax at a local store.

Not sure.45 is the best choice. Expensive rounds

The_Dunedan

Big important thing: when you're price-checking guns, look at what they've actually sold for, look at what people have actually -paid- for the things. What Dealer Sweatsox -wants- for the gun is irrelevant. What matters is what the market will actually support. Again, checking out the "No Reserve" auctions on GB is a great way to do this because it gives you real-time feedback on what the market will pay for a given item. I just recently had to bust a guy's chops because he kept insisting that his used M1A was worth the full MSRP of $2300.00, despite the fact that they're actually -selling- for around half of that.

"But they're listed on GunBroker for $2300!"

>>"Yeah, but are any of them actually -selling- at that price? Is anybody actually -paying- that?"

"No, but..."

>>"What's the most they -are- paying?"

"....$1500."

>>"Exactly. So why would I pay $2300 for a gun that I'll only be able to sell for $1500?"

"But Springfield Armory says!...."

You can see how this turned out.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Zeraph

Thanks for the info.

I don't know, there's just something that I like and feels right about a .45.

Its for concealed carry, combined with home defense. Yes I know, not the best thing for home defense, but I'm on a budget.

Also, I know its not quite the same, but I have a cheaper gun I use to target practice with.

Hotmnkyluv

You could find a dozen guns better suited to CCW than a 45...
I love my 45, and I'm a big guy anyway so I have the mass to hide it but even a small frame 45 is a decent sized weapon, and not the best choice for everybody's carry.

It's definitely going to stop whoever you shoot with it, but it may well "stop" a neighbor if you miss the bad guy.

That said, if it "feels right" for you you can find 9mm (much cheaper rounds) in a full sized 1911 style frame.

wraithhibn

Discount Guns for Sale - Buds Gun Shop that's where I like to shop. If you want basic weapons for a decent price get a Glock and an 870. I wouldn't carry a 45, but that's your choice.

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Zeraph

Why all the .45 hate? Because its expensive and big? I already said I won't be shooting it much. I've been hunting and shooting guns since I was eight years old. I have pretty good accuracy already (tho yes, each gun shoots a bit different, but it'd only take me a few times at the range a year to keep it honed).

Keep in mind, I can already conceal sidearms, when I say CC I mean, carry it, but not overtly, not as in, perfectly in secret. So I don't mind if it bulges a bit. Plus, what about a snub nose revolver? That shouldn't be too hard to conceal last I checked. But its been awhile since I've shot a .45.

sandbagger40

I've purchased several guns from Bud's Gunshop. Generally they'll beat most local dealers on new gun prices. Even after paying for ffl transfer, I've still payed less. Good luck!

Latex Ren

I don't own a .45 (opted for a 44 mag) but when I go to the range, the guys shooting the .45's seem to have a lot of jamming problems.

Is this a known issue with the 45?

I don't have anything against the 45. I would like one, a nice 1911 model, but then I have yet another caliber to buy and stockpile for the end of days. I've tried to keep my semi-auto pistols and rifles to .40 so I can just grab a box and know it's the right round.

But then again, if you have a 9 and a 45...I suspect you'll know the difference when you grab a round

telekinetic

.45 is a semiauto caliber, not a revolver caliber, so I'm not sure how the 'snub nose revolver' comes into play. Snub nose revolvers are typically either .38 special or .357--the latter is the closer equivalent in terms of power, .38 is more like 9mm.

If price is a concern, you can definitely get into a .45 caliber for cheaper than a snub nose .357. Look on backpage.com, there are constantly local firearms listed for private sale, and I saw a couple compact frame 1911's on there the other day.

Your best deal is going to be the arizonashooting.com classifieds, but you can't get access to those without a minimum post count, and if you were already active there, you'd already know that.

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twisted no more

Jinn

Might depend on cleaning. I've got a 1911 with at least 1000 rounds through it, no jams, no misfeeds.

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Zeraph

Huh, that's weird I could have sworn I've held and shot a 45 revolver. Well its not like I know ammo by sight. It was my sister's boyfriend's gun. He told me it was a 45, guess he was wrong.

The_Dunedan

There are two kinds of common .45.

.45 ACP: Most commonly used in semi-auto pistols and a few carbines/subguns. There are .45ACP revolvers: the Smith & Wesson and Colt "Victory" Model 1917 and Smith Mdl 25 are the best known. .45ACP requires half-moon or full-moon clips to work in most revolvers. .45ACP revolvers can also use the special .45 Auto Rim (which is nothing but a .45ACP cartridge with an old-fashioned rim for use in revolvers).

.45 Long Colt: 130+ years old and still kicking. The first of the true Big Bore American revolver rounds to achieve any commercial success. Still popular with Cowboy Action shooters, and used in various double-action Taurus and Smtih & Wesson revolvers still. Can be loaded to slightly exceed the .44 Remington Magnum, but these uber-hot loads should only be used with Ruger revolvers or very heavily-built lever-action rifles.

And that's not counting .45 Schofield, .455 Webley, .45 Win Mag or all the other oddball/obsolete .45 loadings out there.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

telekinetic

OK Correction, as T-D has pointed out, .45 ACP is not a revolver caliber. There are other calibers which could be called .45 (.45 magnum, most prominently), so you may have shot one of those.

Also, there is not an easily concealable snub nose that I am aware of that is chambered in any .45 revolver caliber. I suppose the "Judge" might qualify as a snub nose, but I think you could conceal a full sized 1911 considerably easier.

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twisted no more

Slims

Actually...

S&W makes some really nice revolvers chambered in .45 ACP.

You can have your cake and eat it too, apparently.

The .45 is ideally suited for use with half moon or full moon clips for rapid reloads while traditional rimmed revolver cartridges don't work with the clips. For this reason .45 and some other 'auto' calibers are becoming very popular among competitive revolver shooters.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

ring

It kinda sounds like you want to carry with the bulge showing.
Do you believe that having the 'bulge' showing would be a
deterrent? As in: If some bad guy who wants to do me harm sees the obvious 'gun bulge silhouette' they'd be less likely to mess with me?

KirStang

?????????

First, derailing the home intruder thread, now, inferring an intent to show off from carrying a pistol?

=================================

OP: Why the .45ACP hate?

I don't hate it, but the round tends to be big and fat, so for *most* .45ACP pistols are larger, or, have less magazine capacity. (unless you're talking snubnose revolvers--which I am unfamiliar with). I love the .45, but I don't think it should be your first choice as a general purpose pistol.

ring

? I wasn't inferring what you say.
I used to know a few people who did prefer to have it obvious they were carrying.
It made them feel safer. I was wondering if he felt the same way.

KirStang

Apologies. Thought you were condemning his desire to carry.

Walt

+1

Dunedan is THE resident authority at finding the best deals on firearms.

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Calmer than you are...

Zeraph

Not in particular. Ethically I like the idea. But in practice it freaks people out so I'd rather not have it seen. I was just stating size isn't super important.

Walt

Shooting is a perishable skill. If you won't be practicing regularly, you have no business carrying a gun.

I don't understand. When you say you can already conceal a handgun, do you mean that you already have a concealed carry permit or that the law doesn't require one where you live?

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Calmer than you are...

ring

I heartily agree with Walt's statement:
"Shooting is a perishable skill. If you won't be practicing regularly, you have no business carrying a gun."


"I don't understand. When you say you can already conceal a handgun, do you mean that you already have a concealed carry permit or that the law doesn't require one where you live?

Walt, I was going to ask this ^^^ question also.
Looking over Zeraph's previous posts on other threads, I recall him saying he didn't have a CCW,
back in April/Mayish of '09. Perhaps that has changed since then. ?

Plan9

So... does this mean you wanna buy my 625?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

mkillebrew

Rock Island Armory makes a great, inexpensive, 1911. The fullsize GI goes for $380 or so, and a compact for $390. Personally, I carry a RIA Tactical that ran me $420 delivered, then I put Wilson parts in it, not that it was at all necessary, it was mostly cosmetic. Stock it shot one inch three-round groups offhand at fifteen yards with cheap reloads. Slide to frame fit is better than my Springfield and Colts, but no so tight that it causes stoppages. The only functional change I've made is to increase the stock spring from 16lb to 18.5lb to more reliably feed JHP and reduce peening between slide, buffer, and frame with +P defense ammo.

Centerfire Systems sell them generally for the best price online

The only downside is it's heavy, steel frame instead of alloy, but mechanically excellent. The frame is cast instead of forged like other 1911s, but with modern forgings that should not at all present issue.

Plan9

...and $30-$80 more will get you a plastic .45 that holds twice as many rounds and doesn't feature a completely unnecessary grip safety (unless you're an XD guy) or require the addition of Fancy Brand Name tuner parts. The 1911 is a fine hobby gun but given Zeraph's level of experience with firearms (minimal), his stated desire to practice (rarely), and requirements for use (a .45 handgun for self-defense) he'd be better served with a dummy-proof polymer-framed automatic like a Glock 21 or S&W M&P 45. Don't buy the commuter an old project muscle car to restore... get him a damn commuter car.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Slims

I love and carry a 1911, but I second Plan9.

I can't advise someone who isn't going to really put time into tweaking their weapon to get a 1911.

It is a great gun, but for pure simple reliability and firepower you can't beat the mainstream-manufacturer's polymer pistols.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Zeraph

I didn't read it all, but yes, in my state everyone can CCW.

edit: im surprised you all remembered that, heh

mkillebrew

The RIA 1911, as well as most all others, work great out of the box. They do not require additional parts. I agree that the grip safety is unnecessary but it is in no way a demerit to the platform. The only malfunction you'll find with a poorly fitted grip safety is that it fails to disconnect the action, and not fail in a manner that makes the gun nonfunctional. The only complication between the 1911 and a Glock is a manual safety. If you can't get your head around that I'm not entirely sure you should be within reach of lethal force.

Length is easy to conceal, thickness isn't, which is the primary reason I pack a 1911 with slim grip panels on it. If I wasn't going to carry the 1911 it'd probably be my USP .45, which can also be carried in condition one.

Walt

I am going to recommend going on Gunbroker and finding yourself a beat-to-shit 3rd gen Glock 19. You shouldn't have to spend any more than $400. It may not look pretty, but it is idiot-proof, light weight, low maintenance, more durable/reliable than any comparably priced 1911, will be just as accurate in your hands, and will hold more than twice as many rounds a 1911.

I maintain my position that you have absolutely no business carrying a gun for self-defense because you will not be practicing with it regularly. That being said, I'm suggesting the 9mm because you're not going to listen to me and will carry a pistol anyways. The 45 ACP (and the 1911 platform) takes quite a bit of regular practice to shoot it proficiently. The 9mm is adequate for what you need and is much more user-friendly and forgiving than a .45 ACP.

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Calmer than you are...

Zeraph

You really assume much. Some people are just better shots than others. but thanks for the advice

Walt

I'm not trying to jump in your shit or preach, but I disagree with your lackadaisical approach to training. I'm sure that you know your way around a handgun and can bang out tight little groups at the range. That being said, standing still and taking your time to shoot small groups on a stationary target is worlds away from drawing from different positions, reloading, clearing a malfunction, shooting while moving/behind cover and generally engaging a target as quickly and accurately as possible with multiple rounds - all of them on target. You can't just learn these skills once and be done with it. It takes a long time to be able to develop those skills and constant practice (once a month, at the very minimum) to maintain them. If you are going to carry a gun, then you owe it to yourself and, more importantly, those around you, to be as proficient as possible with it.

You said that you only plan on practicing a couple of times a year. I don't care who you are or how much natural talent you have. A couple of times a year is not going to cut it.

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Calmer than you are...

mkillebrew

The heavier, longer pull of a Glock trigger generally makes people shoot low and to one side if they're inexperienced shooters because of jerking the trigger or tightening their grip while they bring back that heavier trigger. Furthermore, the grip angle between a third generation Glock and a 1911 is only a difference of four degrees, so one doesn't point more intuitively than another. A Glock 19 magazine is 15 rounds, all modern 1911 magazines are 8 rounds. Though it's considerably more, not quite twice the capacity.

My wife learned to shoot on a 1911, she's of small stature and recoil shy, but grouped 3" at 15 yards with only the slightest of instruction. You should probably have higher expectations of Zeraph's abilities.

On another note, the Glock 19 is very affordable and it's a lot cheaper to practice with, as well as appreciably lighter than a 1911, and there are quite a few holster options for it at very reasonable prices. The finish on it will also hold up better than stock parkerized finishes of the budget 1911s, especially when exposed to a lot of drawing from a kydex holster.

KirStang

I second the G19. It's a much better all around platform.

I dislike the 1911 for carry (although I love the platform) because of its weight and magazine capacity. The whole cocked & locked w/ a light trigger thing makes me feel uncomfortable too (YMMV).

I started out as a 1911 type of guy, but gravitated towards the polymer wonders, and now carry a G19. Ammunition's cheaper, you have more mag capacity, and polymer guns are generally more idiot proof than your average 1911. As a new shooter, the grip safety on the 1911 has caused me a few 'HERP-DERP' moments in matches where I drew the pistol and couldn't fire because of a less-than-perfect grip (so something you have to make sure you train around if you carry).

I also find it easier to conceal my G19, although, other individuals find the slim 1911 easier to conceal. The 1911 is also *heavy* so you'll always know it's there, whereas w/ the G19, it's light enough that I can forget that it's there.

If you MUST MUST go .45ACP, try to compare shooting guns like the FN45, M&P45, and HK45 alongside the 1911 before you decide. Sometimes choosing a carry gun isn't about shooting 1" groups at 25 yards--according to statistics, a defensive shootout will take place within less than 15 feet--so factors like ease of carry and familiarity will likely matter more than accuracy.

Finally, a heart is about fist sized, so, speed and accuracy within a fist sized group is what I shoot for.

( Gets ready to get schooled by people who actually shoot for a living).

ETA: 3/5 1911s I've shot required some form of gunsmithing to run 100%, so keep that in mind, too (although that may be attributable to cheap WWB with a slightly longer OAL and weaker load than Blazer .45ACP loads).

Plan9

Let me offer some more unsolicited advice that you'll most likely toss in your mental round file:

You don't know dick. And it's okay. Fix it. You might want to consider investing in formal pistol training. There are plenty of places in Arizona to get such training and it is more than worth your money to learn how to do various drills with your pistol under stress while an experienced instructor observes. It'll cost ~$200 and should leave you wanting more. At the end of the day shooting becomes less about the gun and more about you.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Zeraph

point taken Plan9. I'll look into it.

although if everyone had to go through that just to own a gun, we'd only have like 1% of the population or less owning them.

Plan9

Did you completely miss the point?

EDIT: The Point

I did all of those things and it didn't make me good with guns. Taking classes with guns made me good with guns. It's that simple.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."