Zeraph

I woke up about 3am. I am very sensitive to my surroundings. I heard someone jump the fence and start walking around my house, likely searching for unlocked windows.

I immediately retrieved my sidearm, left all the lights off (I can navigate my house in the dark without running into anything, doubt he could), took a central position with cover, and waited. I can hear extremely well. He went around the house and checked everything I think, then took off. All I ever saw was a shadowy figure for a brief instant through the sliding glass door.

I didn't bother calling the cops, as he'd be long gone. I decided not to, ahem, track him outside and take him out because, well that might go badly with the cops.

How do you think I behaved? Did I do well? Should I have gone outside to confront him? Should I have called the cops?

PS my frickin dog slept through all of it. Stupid dog. heh.

KirStang

No one died, you aren't in jail. Are you even missing anything?

I don't know, but I wouldn't say this was a 'bad' result.

But I would probably look in to an alarm system?

Zeraph

Good points. I'm pretty much my own alarm system though. Honestly its almost like I have a 6th sense for danger. I've avoided so much conflict throughout my life (high school had gang wars...)

Still, there's a small part of me that wanted to take care of that burglar so he wouldn't be able to hurt anyone else. I'm sure he would have just ran though and I don't think I could shoot him in the back. But my question is should I have? Would it have been for the greater good? What if that was a murder/rapist that I let go? That's on me now.

KirStang

Well,

From the cases I read regarding self-defense and justified shootings, the Castle doctrine becomes null when you shoot an intruder in the back (depends on state and case law, I suppose). You do remember Tennessee vs. Garner, right? The police officer who shot the escaping child & burglar who stole like, $10 of goods?

Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but, as a responsible gun owner I'm sure you know, you [ideally] don't shoot until you have a clear target ID. What if this was the neighbors kid? I wouldn't push something to confrontation, unless I had to, especially in a society with a hair trigger for litigation.

RogueGypsy

Sounds like you did just as you should have. No one hurt, everything still intact. Might be good just to call and report the incident. The more reports the police get, the more patrols you get. Doing that, may save someone from whoever it was in the future.

Maybe some snares around the yard would make his life interesting if he comes back. Just a little 'Hello, I'm watching you'. To let him know he's not welcome.

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Zeraph

Roguegypsy- I think traps are illegal.

Ya you guys are probably right, there's just this part of me that's like "what if" what if that was some serial killer I could have stopped? I always feel so guilty for not being perfect

RogueGypsy

Maybe you were right in letting him continue on his way. Maybe it was one of your neighbors doing the same thing your thinking you should have done. Tracking someone they saw around their home. You just never know.

I tend to go with the 'feel' of the situation. If it feels like I should pursue and detain, I do. Otherwise I just let it go. Granted, in my neighborhood, letting a prowler go is not always the humane way to go. One neighbor has a fondness for blasting Coyotes at 3 in the morning with his .50 cal muzzle loader. A prowler mistaken for a Coyote would be having a very bad day. I live on a dead end road and all of my neighbors are armed. We don't get may unwelcome visitors.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------

Most live traps are legal, but checking local laws is always a good idea.

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Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

The_Dunedan

Booby-trapping is illegal in all 50 States so far as I know. Bigtime illegal. Guy-dies-and-you-get-Murder-2 illegal.

So is shooting The Bad Guy in the back: ask Bernie Goetz.

It sounds like you handled the situation in the best possible way. Dumbass didn't get his head blown off, and you didn't have to blow any dumbass's head off. You lived, and so did he: hopefully long enough to reflect upon to error of his ways. Good work.

Next time, however, if Dumbass comes through the door, paint the walls with his brains.

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"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

SirLance

One recommendation, you probably should have called the cops as soon as you realized someone was trespassing on your property. "In progress" always gets a quick response.

In addition, they would step up patrols. If he checked you, he'll check the neighbors.

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woohog1

I realize I may be overstepping my bounds here,as I havent posted something in a while, but I saw this thread and decided to chime in. Please forgive me if it comes across that way.
The way I see it is this. There is nothing I own in my home that money cannot replace. My t.v, my stereo, my computer, nothing! The only reason I would ever have for taking a life, was if my life, or the life of my family was in immediate danger.
Money can replace it, its just stuff, but death is forever.
As to your question about what if.... We can what if forever, and that to me at least seems like you are beating yourself up over something for nothing.
I say you did what any responsible citizen would do, however like others have said before, I would at least report it, so that patrols can be stepped up for a while.
I would also talk to my neighbors and see if they know anything, and let them know what happened also. Knowledge is power, and if they know you were "robbed" they will step up thier guard as well.

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Grancey

You should report this. Even now it is not too late. The police need to know that there was a prowler in your neighborhood. They will step up patrols.
If you shoot a prowler inside or outside of your home, you must convince the police officers that you believed that your life was in danger. I would never recommend going outside of your home to confront someone. They could have a bigger gun than you do. If someone should break through your window or door, I would think your life was in danger and have at it.
You cannot set traps in your yard or around your house. Highly illegal.
I would suggest getting a dog that is a lighter sleeper.
Glad you were not hurt.

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Fire

in most states, with castle doctrine laws, you generally have to have them enter your home to justify shooting them- and without a clear physical threat, hell, without a proper target ID, you would have been in the wrong just shooting the prowler in question- I would have turned a light on or something- yes, it gives away the advantage of surprise, but it also marks your dwelling as a hard target, and will generally cause the perp to seek easier pickings.... I used to live in the not so great part of a city of 100000, and had this kind of thing all the time- and a lot of criminals running from the cops through my yard too.... some defensive landscaping might be in order, rose bushes or similar can deter people around your windows- there are a lot of other spiky plants to choose from, based on your location, and they can really help turn a potential hiding place or weak point into a strong defense.....

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dlish

this might sound stupid coming from someone who knows next to nothing about guns or gun ettiquite. But what about a warning shot in the air just after he left. He's surely hear it, and he's know that you were aware of his presence.

it'd at least be a deterrent for him to come back, and itd wake up your lazy dog.

or is this bad practice? i dunno.. 2c worth.

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eribrav

This was my first thought as well.
Carry the cordless phone and dial 911 as you are following/engaging the intruder.

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

It sounds like he lives in a populated area and that makes this a really bad idea.
And in general you always want to know what's along the trajectory of your shot before pulling the trigger.

The_Dunedan

Warning shots are a very, -very- bad idea.

1: What goes up -will- come down. It might kill or injure someone, or damage their property, when it does so. When I was in High School, a dumbass negligently discharged an SKS into the air, and the bullet killed a young girl standing in line at an amusement-park more than four miles away. I'm sure our colleagues who've lived or served in less-developed parts of the Arab World and Central Asia have loads of similar stories involving weddings, funerals, and political demonstrations.

2: It's an "intentional miss." You never want to get into the habit of missing.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Zeraph

Yeah, also firing my gun ("warning shot") and having no proof that there was a prowler (he would be gone) would be illegal and I might be the one ending up in jail. Life is screwed up like that.

Hotmnkyluv

No such thing as a warning shot.
If you point a gun at a person, you need to be prepared to pull the trigger.
If you pull the trigger, you need to be prepared to kill another human being.

ring

These excerpts cause me great concern:

"I decided not to, ahem, track him outside and take him out because, well that might go badly with the cops."

"Still, there's a small part of me that wanted to take care of that burglar so he wouldn't be able to hurt anyone else. I'm sure he would have just ran though.
But my question is should I have? Would it have been for the greater good? What if that was a murder/rapist that I let go?"

You have no proof that this shadowy fence jumping figure was a burglar.
You claimed he was checking out the house..."you think."
Your willingness to shoot & take out this 'alleged burglar, possible rapist & serial killer'
that you fabricated in your head,
leads me to the conclusion that you should not possess a firearm of any sort.

hunnychile

Once in east Dallas during the day...I saw a dude monkeying with the lock on our gate - just outside the patio. We lived in a bad area. And it was holiday time...anyhow, I ran and got my hub's huge Mazburg hunting rifle and opened the curtains in the sliding doors right across from this gate. I made sure he could see me centering in on his position. All I saw was a huge white flipped out eyeball & he definitely saw the big ass rifle in my hands pointing right at his face, and he ran away.

I was a quite freaked out & called the cops who said they couldn't "do anything" unless he walked into the patio & accosted me. He didn't, (thank God) but I would have blasted his head off it he had. The best part of this is that the rifle was unloaded, as I always expect it to be. And yet, we never had anyone dick with our patio gate after that. Go figure.

Luckily, I know how to load that hunting gun and I'd use it if I had to. (the few times I've shot it - it was almost knocked me to the ground.) But I know how to use it!

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KirStang

Well, honestly, if someone broke in to your home in the middle of the night, that's plenty justification right there to neutralize the threat.

Burglary, as a felony with a high risk of serious bodily harm, should not require additional justification to 'shoot and take out' the burglar.

Also, this borders on politics and the right to bear arms. Please don't drag tilted politics in here.

ring

Kirstang, no one broke into his home.
He is not even sure it was a burglar.
I was also responding to this statement that you neglected to quote in my post:
"I decided not to track him outside and take him out"
I found that statement to be irresponsible & dangerous. & that's I why mentioned he should not possess a firearm.
As a safety issue.

How you came to the conclusion that it borders on politics & the right to bear arms,
I dunno. That was not my intention.

Walt

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to holster and conceal your weapon, and then step outside to confront he guy.

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ASU2003

In some states that is fine, if he is in a fenced in backyard it is fine, but it might end up badly too. His friends and him might come back later as well with more weapons.

Then again, I had a roommate in college that climbed over a fence and walked into some strangers house and fell asleep on their couch when he was drunk.

Zeraph

Ring- are you serious? It was 3am and we have a high fence around our yard. He was checking windows to see if they were open. I'm not sure what I said above (too lazy to check) but I meant, I'm not sure if he's a burglar, rapist, serial killer, etc. There was no question he was breaking the law and trying to enter my home.

Where I live, trespassing is usually enough to open fire. Especially in the middle of the night when I have loved ones to protect.

PS those were just *thoughts* I obviously didn't follow through. You can't be punished for thoughts. Shit...if you could I'd be in prison for life probably. I'm sure many people have some sort of hero complex, it doesn't mean they actually go out and fight bad guys though.

Walt

Dude, I don't care what state you're in. Your backyard or front porch are not suddenly off limits because someone has decided to occupy them. It's your property and you go where you want. If it ends up badly; so be it. A grown-ass man should never be cowed in to submission in his own home because some trespassing cock may or may not have bad intentions and/or armed friends with bad intentions.

Obviously you shouldn't go out there, guns blazing or even showing but you should go out there and confront the guy. Maybe he is drunk, a lost retard who has escaped his wranglers or maybe he just was in a car accident and needs someone to call 911. If that's the case then this is your chance to be a hero.

Or maybe he is a legit bad guy and is going to attack you. If thats the case, then I'm you're in a fight. Deal with it. If he wants to escalate the situation and produce a weapon. Produce yours.

Just MHO.

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ring

Zeraph, all I/we have to go on is the words that you originally wrote down.

"I decided not to, ahem, track him outside and take him out because, well that might go badly with the cops."

I don't know if you were kind of joking with this statement or not.
Was it just the idea of getting in trouble with the cops that stopped you?

"Still, there's a small part of me that wanted to take care of that burglar so he wouldn't be able to hurt anyone else. I'm sure he would have just ran though and I don't think I could shoot him in the back. But my question is should I have? Would it have been for the greater good? What if that was a murder/rapist that I let go?"

^ The section of the above statement that concerned me is:
"But my question is should I have? Would it have been for the greater good?"

That, to me, seemed more than just an abstract what if type thought.
& that's what I reacted to.

So, you weren't seriously asking if it was 'okay' to take out this dude for the greater good?

I hope that's the case. I'm glad nothing worse happened & you weren't hurt.
My apologies for any misunderstandings.

StanT

I'd be having a long talk with my dog. "You know that free room and board thing you got going here? Not one f'ing woof?".

I don't own anything worth shooting someone over. Threaten my wife or daughters and I'd have no problem with it. Threaten me, I'll probably call the dog or find another option.

SirLance

Not a matter of etiquette, a matter of safety. What goes up must come down, and you don't want it coming down through somebody's skull....

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dlish

ok, i get the picture. at what speed does it fall?

9.8m/sec/sec? (gravity)

ive always wondered about this question

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SirLance

Good question, it depends on the muzzle velocity, you will lose some energy to the air (and the 2nd law) but it will be close to the velocity at which it left the barrel.

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Walt

It depends on the angle at which it was fired.

MythBusters Episode 50: Bullets Fired Up

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Calmer than you are...

Martian

I dunno, I think I'm with Ring on this one. I mean, someone walks through your back yard and you're questioning whether or not you should have run out and shot him?

Even if we take it as granted that he was looking to rob your place, he didn't actually make any attempt to break in. The only thing this guy actually did was trespass in your back yard. Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart pinko librul, but that doesn't seem like a capital offence to me.

dlish: 9.8 m/s^2 would assume a perfect up/down trajectory, which isn't really possible under real world conditions. Further, even if it did go straight up and come straight down, the final velocity is going to depend on a few factors (the final height, the mass vs. surface area which will determine the terminal velocity, etc). Take all of that, add in the X axis to calculate the actual velocity of the bullet on impact and you will find that you get a final product of "fucking dangerous."

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I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

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LordEden

Why is this in Tilted Weaponry? This seems like a GD or politics thread.

*****

He was trying to break in, if he would have found a easy way in, he would have gotten into the house. What part of that was missed? Do we just say, "Well he was just a lazy thief, I guess it was ok. I mean, he was only TRYing to break in. No Harm, No Foul."

You try and break into my house, you will be met with a loaded gun and a statement of intent. I will call the cops, but I'm not going to hide until they get here. I'm going to let you know I'm in the house with a loaded weapon and you need to leave, NOW.

Trying to break into my house is the same thing as breaking into my house (in my book). No one should be made to cower in their homes hoping/praying that "The big bad burglar will not rape/murder/kidnap them just steal all their shit". Screw that.

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Martian

Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't be prepared. I mean, personally if I were cofronted with that situation my probable response would be to just get out of the way and let the Bad Guy have my shit, rather than assume I can shoot faster/aim better than him. But that's just me, you do what you think is right.

Where I draw a distinction is in the thread question. The answer to 'should I have gone out and confronted him' is in my books a very emphatic no. There's a big difference between shooting someone who has actually broken into your home (or is actually attempting to do so by physically manhandling a door/window) and shooting someone who's just chilling in your yard.

Then again, I don't even own a gun. I guess maybe I should just say that I'm glad I don't live anywhere near Zeraph and leave it at that.

Also, going by the description in the OP it doesn't sound like 'trying to break in' is as forgone a conclusion as you think it is. We go from

and
and
to
Where did this suddern certainty come from?

High fence or no, if someone is in my backyard late at night my first thought is more likely to be "drunk/lost/taking a shortcut" rather than "OMG RAPIST!"

But again, that's just me.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

ASU2003

Has the NRA ever done a study on this? I know people like to think of what they would do, or would like to do, and the law and police may have another stance on it. But from a homeowners safety position, what would the correct response be? (If they are in your house, that is something different, and I would eliminate the threat if it is real.)

Would you call the police? Wait until they break a window or pry a door open? Turn on a light? Go outside and point the gun at them, make a citizen's arrest? Shoot them for trespassing in your fenced in backyard?

dlish

maybe zeraph should do an antoine dodson on him and make a video

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I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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mixedmedia

well, the consensus is pretty much : don't go outside and shoot someone who is in your yard.

Yes? fine.

Personally, I don't think it should be legal to shoot someone who is not threatening you with bodily harm. I had this conversation a long time ago at another place with someone who thought it was perfectly reasonable to shoot someone in the back who was stealing your tv. That's just stupid, in my opinion. It's a tv...or jewelry or money or computer, etc., etc. Why the hell is that worth shooting someone over? I understand that opinions vary, though.

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Cimarron29414

Sorry, Lance, but this is not true. It is a giant "it depends." If the round is carrying a ballistic trajectory and does not lose its rifling spin, then it is extremely dangerous. However, a round that goes straight up will lose it's ballistic trajectory and tumble to the ground. It will reach terminal velocity and plunk you in the head. I believe it's terminal velocity will be the equivalent of the speed as if you dropped it from around 30 feet or so. In short, it will leave a lump, but won't kill an adult. HOWEVER, a round can maintain a ballistic trajectory even at very high angles of fire, those puppies kill people all the time.

Shooting into the air is TV cowboy shit. Don't do it. You are responsible for every round leaving your weapon.

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Walt

Some folks place more value on their possessions than others because of what it cost those folks to acquire them. Let's say that the owner of the car, television, etc is a soldier. He earned the money to lawfully acquire those possessions by risking his life every day on an 18 month deployment. I wouldn't blame the soldier, then, were he to take the life of a substandard human being in order to protect his investment.

---

On a personal note, I wouldn't shoot someone over a TV. I would beat the person within an inch of their life. "What's mine is mine."

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