ChrisJericho

So apparently I need this thing called "training" in order to be proficient with firearms. This whole time I thought leisurely shooting at paper targets would be enough to make me a uber tactical guru.

So I did some research and this place called Insights Training center is near me. I know most of you are on the east coast and they teach some classes out there, so I was wondering if you have heard anything good or bad about them.

Here's the site: InSights Training Center - Gun and Combat Training

Right now I am just considering the General Defensive Handgun course.

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Plan9

Do it. They smell credible. Just don't reload your handgun magazine like the weirdo on the General Defensive Handgun course page *.

Honestly, the only way to tell if training is any good is if you walk away better for it and if the next training you do is better or worse.

* Unless you have to because they have lame range safety rules against pointing your muzzle up. If so, just follow their instructions and keep an open mind.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ChrisJericho

Well I signed up. I will consider it "good training" if I finish the course without having shot myself in the foot/thigh

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Plan9

Or, ya know, the instructor.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cimarron29414

Yeah, they won't let you come back if you shoot an instructor.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

ChrisJericho

He's just performing a tactical prostate check on the gun

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Jinn

This guy?



Call me an idiot, but what's wrong with doing it that way? Aside from his apparent passionate interest in the mag itself? As long as it's downrange, I didn't think it was a no-no. And he's even got it slightly cocked away from his shooting buddies. I thought pointing it at your toes was The Wrong Way.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

KirStang

Oooh. I think I see a shiney ninja logo on the guy's head.

But. Practice reloading enough you should be able to do it without looking down. Like the whole reholstering your side arm thing. You can see who's had *some* experience by who looks down when they reholster vs. not.

There's also another method where you bring the pistol's magwell in to your peripheral vision and bang a fresh mag in while keeping your eyes downrange. But. What do I know. The guy in the picture is apparently a ninja.

*ETA:* Always remember too, that the instructors, experienced as they are, are only teaching *A* way, not *the* way. What works for one, may not work for another. Keep that in mind.

Walt

Thats pretty much how I perform my reloads for three reasons:

1. Bringing the weapon up to your face like that allows you to focus on the weapon without tunnel vision kicking in and causing you to lose sight of the bad guy.
   
2. It also lets you focus on the task at hand and smoothly complete the mag change. I watch/guide the empty mag out and watch/guide the new mag go in. I see the slide return to battery. I do it right the first time. Relying on the fine motor skills is a no-go (for me, at least) as the fine motor skills are the first to go under stress.
   
3. Keeping the weapon angled like that allows you to make sure the slide goes in to battery.

I'm conscious of the source, but the little girl's reload in the movie Kick Ass is an awesome example.

YouTube - Hit Girl Rescue Scene - Kick Ass


The no-look mag drop/insertion is faster (when done correctly the first time) but I think that method allows a greater chance of fucking things up and then causing you to fumble and lose focus while you try to unfuck yourself and make up lost time. Do it right the first time and get back in the fight. I'm sure you've heard the old adage "Fast is slow. Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast."

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

Yeah, I'm nitpicking. Arguing "down range" indoor safety vs. What We'd Do In Real Life here. I probably reload a pistol the exact same way you do.

I just don't like doing it extended away from my body and I like to point the pistol up at a 11 o'clock or so in my "workspace."

Keep in mind that I'm a complete dumbass and have no idea how to do anything. That was in the extra tiny * disclaimer.

...

I have no idea what KirStang is talking about with this "no look" thing because we've both attended similar training schools.

...

Another fun gun debate topic (pick-your-school variety) is the "fine motor skills lost under stress" one.

So... if you lose your fine motor skills under stress, how do you carefully squeeze a ~5 lbs. pistol trigger?

I still use the slide lock to reload. I've been told I'll fuck it up eventually, but that's what training is for.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

I'm not jumping in your shit or anything. I'm just throwing out what I do and why.

There's no real manipulation involved. You have to move your finger an inch in one direction. It's just a straight-up muscle contraction on a stationary object. It's not going to be as smooth as if you were plugging paper at the range and shooting for minute-of-angle, but assuming that your hold on the weapon and your sight picture were correct, a less than perfect trigger pull is still going to put rounds on target at minute-of-dude.

With a no-look mag change, you have to insert a moving object in to a small hole on another moving object. Any adjustments that need to be made are small adjustments, requiring a shit load of fine motor skills. Also, there is only one form of sensory input as the reload/adjustments are being done feel.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

Well, yeah. My shit is so narrow you couldn't jump into it without a funnel, bro. I know nutzing. I'm completely inept.

But I concur with everything you've said. I just like to play with the concepts I've been brainwashed with over the years.

When somebody tells me I can't hit the ext. slide release on a Glock 34 when I'm pumped up, I get pseudo-pumped and try it.

That and KirStang may have just had a 'tard moment.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Clue.

As you see, this guy isn't totally preoccupied with his blaster.

Plan9

Damnit, I can't watch YouTubes. How is this video any different than how we roll at classes?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

Shit. I'm late to the party.

In my training I was taught not to look at the gun with drawing, reloads and most manipulations. As long as you're doing it properly (e.g. getting a proper finger index on the magazine and consistent grip) you'll develop the muscle memory. Later you can do it faster and faster. It's not that hard to learn but it does take some technique and a little bit of discipline.

I keep my eyes focused downrange on the subject. Mentally I'm with my environment while my weapon manipulations are almost "automatic."

If I had to look at my gearshift knob every time I had to change gears I'd end up in a crash.




Personally I think it's basic and essential to do your manipulations without looking ... I would be a little wary if a defensive/tactical handgun course didn't teach it to you.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

Mmm, there is "not looking" and then there is "not looking directly, gun up in your face (aka "workspace") so you can see it in your peripheral vision as you manipulate it." I don't look at the mag well when I'm reloading, but it's hanging out in the bottom third of my vision, blurry but clear enough to notice problems. I mean, the human eye moves faster than the human hand, so if you keep the gun up at eye level, focused down range, you should be keep one or the other in your peripheral vision and can switch quickly if needed. It's the best of both worlds, IMRO. That and manipulating your gun while at extension is way fuckin' awkward and tends to cause "oops, I dropped it" incidents.

Whatever works for the individual shooter, though. I'm sure plenty of guys can absolutely smoke me on a IDPA run by reloading with their exposed left nut.

...

Regarding your addition:

Of course you're not looking at the gear shift when you shift but (depending on the car) you'd know if it suddenly turned purple and started spinning, right?

And then there's the age old tough guy argument: If you fuck up _whatever_, you might end up _inconvenienced_. If you fuck up _GI Joe task_, you might end up dead.

There's a pretty illuminating post at the M4C board about how a US Marine ended up in a wheel chair over this exact topic. It could have been any of us. Thanks, military.

...

Also:

My perspective on what to have in my peripheral vision when manipulating a weapon is based on the chance that something will fuck up. I obviously don't workspace a gun when I'm rotating the selector lever from safe to semi. As an example of a fuck-up with magazines, there is a chance the top round could have slid out a bit (requiring a lead edge swipe inside the magwell to pop the wayward round), etc. It's hardly arguable that the magazine is the single most important part of any mag-fed fighting weapon and yet simultaneously the weakest link (designed to be cheap, relatively fragile, a consumable item). As such, it should be treated with extra scrutiny. Disclaimer: I'm retarded.

...

Uh... eh... I feel it totally necessary to state that I also make sure to properly index my penis on labia when entering a vagina. Slow is smooth, and smooth is OH YEAH.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

In the end whatever works for you works for you.

Willie Hoppe, the famous billiards player (who was the consultant for "The Hustler" with Paul Newman.) has a very bizarre pool stance that breaks all the rules of proper form. His shooting forearm arm was almost horizontal which, by all standards, gives no power or consistency. But he was one of the greats.


It's OK to be retarded ... just don't go FULL retard.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

< I am Full Retard. Just ask anybody that's spent twenty minutes around me. Or shot with me.

...

I'm interested to see what kind of AAR we get from ChrisJericho. Hopefully he has all the usual holes.

IIRC, KirStang is at a shooting class right this moment (1330 EST). May his mag changes not fumble.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Went empty during a break contact drill, next thing you know, my side-arm's out, and I'm yelling "MOVE!" Sidearm ran dry, put a new mag in it, got it up, holstered it, reloaded primary, and got back up. Did this surprisingly fast.

Also did a tac reload really fast without even thinking about it. I like this whole training thing.

ChrisJericho

I don't know what the "holes" stuff means.

I googled "AAR" so now I know what it means and I will now proceed with my "AAR."

I think for most members of this forum the class would be quite elementary, but for me it was very useful. It was a mix of class time and range time, usually we would go to the class for an hour and then go to the range and shoot for an hour or so. This was a good mix because after an hour of shooting drills us non-tactical types tend to become fatigued and really can't do anything productive.

The class size was 16 people. I would say I was one of the least experienced people there. There was quite a bit of people in there (maybe 5 or 6) would had already done IDPA/IPSC, and it seemed like most of the stuff we did in class they already knew. The was a fair amount of hunters as well (maybe 4 or so) and then there were people like me who basically have just shot in a booth. A couple people showed up woefully underprepared, wearing dress clothes like dockers with blazers, one person didn't even bring a holster. Oddly these people also had the most expensive guns and also the least accurate shooting.

The first day we started out by doing safety stuff, getting the arm positions memorized while drawing from the holsters and dry firing (this was prolonged by people who brought 1911's and M9's who continuously forgot to manipulate/decock their safeties). I had brought my glock 19. We eventually started drawing from the holster and firing. We also learned how to do tactical reloads and speed reloads. Towards the end of the day we did malfunction drills with snap caps. There were portions of the day when I thought things were starting to go too fast such as when we started stacking things on top of each other in the same drill, like doing various types of reloads while doing malfunction drills. However this ended up being quite positive because we had to just start doing things automatically via muscle memory without being able to think about them.

In between doing these drills we spent time in the classroom going over safety, when it's legal to use deadly force, how to deal with the police/witnesses and other topics.

On day 2 things got more complex as we added concealment garments. So we practiced how to draw from these and fire. We also added multiple targets. We were using the paper targets that have 5 circles, two on top, one in the middle, and two on bottom. So the instructor would randomly call out the numbers of the targets we had to shoot. We would also have to do reloading during these exercises. Towards the end of the day we added verbal commands to the suspect such as "drop the weapon!" "call the police!" etc. However the instructors stressed that in our state it is not necessary to issue verbal commands, however they may help you in court when the witnesses testify that you gave these commands. Also we added the "+1" rule where you assume there's always one more bad guy, so at the end of each drill you were supposed to look around from side to side behind you 360 degrees without moving your feet.

Altogether, for me it was a very useful class. I am going to integrate many of these exercises when I go to the range in the future, such as the different types of reloading and always making sure to check behind me. I will also practice the malfunction drills at home (tap, rack, bang and lock, rip, work for double feeds) with snap caps.

To be honest though, the class cost $350 which is quite a bit of money. However it was two full days from 8 am to 6 pm, with a 1 hour break for lunch. For me, I think the price was worth it, however I could see how some people would balk at the price and not be interested. I invited a cousin of mine to take the class with me and we talked about it a bit, but after awhile his interest faded and I believe it was due to the cost. Right now I'm an unmarried adult male so I have some disposable income, but I could see how someone with a family wouldn't be able to afford it. They do have additional higher skill pistol classes, however the cost for these is $600, albeit they are 3 day classes. I am going to consider these classes, they aren't until spring though so I have to time to think about it.

Miscellaneous:
-When we first walked up to the shooting line, somehow all the younger guys like me congregated to the left side of the line, while most of the older people lined up on the right side. Most of us on the left were running glocks while the people on the right were running very expensive 1911's and m9's. Pretty much all of the "issues" came from the right side of the line. Jams with the 1911's, the previously mention issue with the M9 not being put on safe/decocked at the proper times etc.

-The people with the biggest guns (full size 1911's glock 34's etc), didn't CCW when we left to go to lunch. I found this baffling as to why they were training with a gun they wouldn't CCW. I CCW'ed my glock 19 whenever I left the building. Before this class I carried a usp compact in 9mm in a cocked and locked condition. However I wanted to use the training to become comfortable enough carry a glock with a round in the chamber. It went well and once I get my glock 19 IWB holster I will likely switch to glock.

-The little Caleb guy from the show Top Shot was there taking pictures/video of the class for a possible magazine article. He made sure everyone was ok being seen in a publication or the internet. I was in a few of the pictures and videos so they might pop up eventually.

I'm sure there's more but that's all I can remember right now, and I'm hungry.

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

longbough

$350 is a reasonable price for a 2 day course.
Looks like you've covered a lot of the essentials very well.
What's going to happen is that you'll go home and work on your drills then, after you've established some muscle memory, you'll be aching to take the 3 day course.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

Definitely. In my experience, training is a minimum of $200 a day for a reputable instructor / school. Ammo, food and hotel rooms not included.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."