The Problems with the Open Carry Movement - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Plan9 · 10-09-2010, 01:12 AM

...according to my new favorite outspoken hoplopolitical genius.

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I live in a state where unloaded open carry (meaning a gun is visible, not concealed) is legal. This is a good thing, as there are times and places where it's appropriate and can come in handy. Even my mom carries her .38 Special with a few rounds of snakeshot in it when she goes hiking out in the California wilderness, but examples of rational open carry like that aren't the kind of thing you are going to see on the evening news. We don't live in a rational world, so the tug of war begins. An extremist from the anti-gun lobby wants to remove the right to OC, then an extremist from the pro-gunners starts an uproar. Now that there is a controversy it's shoved down the throats of everyone through news outlets and the internet, only the most vocal and extreme outlooks are shown (since the middle ground is boring and uninteresting) and what was once the 95% of the population that didn't mind one way or the other begins to split apart. This kind of thing happens on most hot-button issues, and the most unfortunate part is it's nearly always a small minority of each side that is ruining it for majority of the people in the middle. No matter what happens though everyone is likely to lose in the end, as the extremists cause a divide that isn't going to be fixed.

As it stands now, people in my state retain the right to OC. But as the Open Carry Movement seems to think, "A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost." Groups in urban areas in many OC-legal states have started this movement, which involves groups of them carrying their weapons in high profile, high traffic public areas. Under their header on the website there are 2 quotes: "There's even an organization whose raison d'etre is promotion of open carry . . . OpenCarry.org. These are the shock troops of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away." Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009, and "The anti-gun rights lobby's furor over the presence of guns near the president . . . is an attempt to somehow reverse the normalization of guns." Professor Brandon Denning, Cumberland School of Law (Birmingham, AL), Christian Science Monitor, August 8, 2009 . Their apparent message? We are going to proudly open carry and there is nothing you can do about it.

So what exactly are they accomplishing? When I ask people who participate in these meets I get mixed messages. One thing I have heard a few times is comparison to marches of various civil rights group. The difference here is the public already has the right to open carry, and in fact the Black Panther's march on the state capital with loaded weapons, as the video said, actually ended up losing us the right to carry a loaded weapon as the law was changed to unloaded only. You also hear "An armed society is a polite society" and the thought that if more people were openly carrying crimes would be prevented. In that video the OC'ers were meeting in Cupertino California, let's look at the crime statistics from that city:

[STATS GRAPHIC SHOWING ZERO CRIME]

With 0 murders and rapes in 2006 (the most recent year I could find) and less than 1 murder every three years Cupertino probably isn't the greatest proving ground for the magic crime prevention of the sight of an unloaded weapon. Why are these groups meeting in Cupertino Starbucks and not East Oakland or Richmond, 2 of the 10 most violent cities in the US, which are only minutes away? The man in the video's stance kind of falls apart into the same rhetoric that is often said yet never explained, and then into "people are more likely to respect you."

[Plan9 Note: It'd be different if these guys went to these locations and touted open carry.]

So what's really happening here? Groups of men are meeting in low crime areas, in coffee shops and book stores where there are likely to be people that will be shocked by the sight of a gun. Despite what the extremists will have you believe, very few people on the left are rabid gun grabbers, the vast majority doesn't care too much one way or the other. So what good does carrying your gun into a Starbucks do? You are forcing an issue on people who originally want no part in it. You see in the news the cops are called, people are scared of it, even entire blocks have been evacuated. Is this an irrational fear of guns? Of course. But this kind of thing happening isn't going to make people appreciate the right to open carry. The average suburban mom getting her latte doesn't want to see a gun, and these meets are turning people who may have been indifferent into people who may want to take away the right so they don't have to look at guns in their quaint suburbia.

When you look around online and on forums on both sides of the issue it goes from dumb to downright embarrassing. The notion that "Real gun owners carry" is the most offensive, and just gives more fodder to the liberals for the stereotype of the unintelligent, unstable gun nut. Both sides have countless, sourceless stories of an open carrier either stopping a bank robbery simply by being there or someone negligently discharging their weapon and nearly killing someone, and every story always leads back to a non-verified source that clearly has an agenda. The most unfortunate thing is the "either you are with us or against us" mentality on both sides of the spectrum. Again, extremists are always the most vocal and only seem to understand absolutes, which needlessly widens the divide even though most people don't agree with them.

Will California and other OC states keep their right to do so? Probably for a while, but not forever. What can you do as a gun owner? Don't fall in to propaganda and extremes. Show that you are smart and level-headed, and understand that there are always people that won't like guns. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion to other gun enthusiasts even if you know they aren't likely to agree. That whole system is exactly what lumps all gun owners into that stereotypical hard-headed gun nut seen by the other side. If you really want to retain your rights do and say what YOU think is the best route. And if you want your kids and theirs to be able to open carry, don't go to Peet's Coffee with an AK on your back - if you have to protest, at least don't protest a right that you already have.

Update:

It's been a few months since I first wrote about the Open Carry Movement and it's idiocy, you may be wondering how the crusade to make the already legal still legal is going for them. Amazingly enough, it's not going well. A bill by the name of AB1934 has already passed through the California assembly and only needs approval from the Senate before it comes enacted. So did this bill spawn out of the outrage of people open carrying in black bear/mountain lion frequented hiking trails of Northern California? Of course it didn't, this is 100% the fault of the suburban Starbucks/public park/etc. meets that got that attention they so desperately needed. The bill may expire before the Senate has a chance to enact it, but it's really only a matter of time. You would hope the Open Carry Movement would take a hint and realize their strategy of garnering bad attention in an attempt to preserve a right they already have is not working, but of course they will likely go with "Now we must open carry, now more than ever! You are either with us or against us! Also please send money and you can get a cool name on your forum avatar!

- Only-amusing-because-he's-articulate Blogger-author that calls himself "Heartbreaker"

...

The only reason I've posted this stuff is because I think it is well-written (and he hates fat people), not because I necessarily agree with the points he makes. That being said, I've had major problems with what amounted to perfectly legal open carry in my state and I've had friends that were disarmed and arrested for legal open carry. It's a great way to make yourself a target. We've surely beaten that horse to death in other threads but seeing that I have nothing of value to add to TFP except firearm-related drivel, I'll keep to my forte and continue to bludgeon equestrian corpses.

I open carry at work so it's annoying for me to alter my entire wardrobe, movements and level of awareness so I can properly conceal a handgun when I'm off duty. I would open carry if it was socially acceptable but only because I carry a gun most of the time anyway, I have proper training in how to shoot AND when to shoot, and I'm not some dumbass that is going to attempt to stop a bank robbery or defuse an arguing couple with my Glock in hand. As my good buddy R once said in regards to what he'd do with his concealed carry piece, "This gun is for me to fix myself, get your own."

But, yeah, open carry is stupid from a practical standpoint and only serves to piss people off when you're doing it in an area where it's not even close to the norm (and largely unnecessary). In states with concealed carry permits, what is your excuse? You're being a showboat. You might feel like you're exercising your right but you're not a whole lot different than some dumbass protesting for segregation outside city hall in the eyes of 95% of America. I'm not a genius; I don't know how to fix the problem or how to make firearms more socially acceptable to the 95% apathetics, but this ain't it.

I could just be a passive, gun-owning pussy, though.

...

Obvious Disclaimer: This argument only applies to areas where open carry is not the norm such as suburban shopping malls outside DC. I open carry while backpacking (where legal) and while wandering around on my property or the property of someone who is okay with me doing such.

dksuddeth · 10-09-2010, 09:07 AM

where open carry is not only legal, but is a guaranteed constitutional right, if you're stopped and harassed or arrested by police for disorderly conduct, who broke the law?

this is the major issue I have with people who frown upon open carry and would prefer people carry concealed. why should I have to pay around 250 dollars to be able to exercise a guaranteed constitutional right? why should I have to pay 250 dollars so that when I exercise my guaranteed right I don't offend or scare idiots?

silent_jay · 10-09-2010, 10:03 AM

dksuddeth · 10-09-2010, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Calling people who disagree with you 'idiots' isn't the best way to make your point. I'm sure you wouldn't be very receptive to someone making a post here claiming that 'people who want to open carry, are nothing more than gun toting morons who've probably fucked a family member in the past'.

and yet it doesn't stop alot of people.....

Walt · 10-09-2010, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

this is the major issue I have with people who frown upon open carry and would prefer people carry concealed. why should I have to pay around 250 dollars to be able to exercise a guaranteed constitutional right?

I whole-heartedly agree, though I think your argument may be a bit off topic.

--------
More or less a drunken re-cap of my past statements on the subject:

Open carry, like all things, has its time and place. I open carry when I'm humping around in the woods because there is nobody to piss off and because its just more comfortable than having a G20 rubbing my kidney raw.

I can get where a lot of folks see the open carry thing as obnoxious where concealed carry is an option. Why not carry concealed? You have the means to give yourself a fighting chance and the folks around you who aren't necessarily comfortable with guns get a warm fuzzy due to the "if I dont see it, its not there" mentality.

Open carry in metropolitan areas (where concealed carry is an option) is a lot like the over-the-top Gay Pride parades wherein a bunch of dudes in leather thongs are having a dildo dance fight in the streets of San Francisco. It's not so much about exercising innate rights as it is about saying "Yeah, I'm allowed to do this. Fuck you if you don't like it". Long story, short; it doesn't really do much to further your cause. Instead you look like a dick and alienate the other folks.

So why open carry? Whats the desired objective? IMO, there is no tangible advantage to open carry in Chilli's and the Pottery Barn. If I'm hell-bent on robbing a Chilli's, its a certainty that I am going to shoot your dumb ass first with my concealed weapon. You never had a chance and now I have two guns.

Daka · 10-11-2010, 03:57 AM

Interesting points on "open carry".
In an urban setting, I don't quite understand the open carry reasoning.
Hunting in the woods is a different story..
I have been carrying concealed for many many years, there is NO way I would wear a gun exposed on my person, that alone is asking for trouble...(one way or another)
In my years of carrying I have NEVER had to un holster my weapon NEVER...
I certainly would not try to stop a robbery, (unless it was to me)
I carry to protect myself and my family from random violence...

Plan9 · 10-11-2010, 04:23 AM

DK, I'm disappointed at the quality of your recent posts. Are you not feeling well? I realize times are tough for True Patriots, but you gotta man up and continue to spew forth your rhetoric with the manic fervor that once captivated the dozen or so people here at the TFP who need you for balance.

dksuddeth · 10-11-2010, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

DK, I'm disappointed at the quality of your recent posts. Are you not feeling well? I realize times are tough for True Patriots, but you gotta man up and continue to spew forth your rhetoric with the manic fervor that once captivated the dozen or so people here at the TFP who need you for balance.

i've not had the energy and motivation to go on my usual DK-esque type postings lately. Too many important issues in the real life home front i've had to deal with. hopefully I can pick it back up soon though.

Plan9 · 10-11-2010, 09:52 AM

Hey, if we're going to be in this together... I need you to make a commitment.

dksuddeth · 10-11-2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Hey, if we're going to be in this together... I need you to make a commitment.

as soon as I find the wife another cardiologist, you got it.

Plan9 · 10-11-2010, 09:18 PM

You don't need a wife. You just need an AK47 and rich people to oppress you.

Slims · 10-12-2010, 05:32 PM

*Ahem*

If you feel just 1 AK-47 is sufficient then you are missing entirely what the gun-nut community is all about.

It's not the practical preparation for a world catastrophe/revolution/social unrest/etc.

It's the desire to fantasize about being the hero who saves the day in all of the above while spending your entire paycheck on the latest bizarre rifle that is absolutely awesome due to it's rarity despite the fact you could never find ammunition/parts for it if any of the aforementioned disasters came to fruition.

Plan9 · 10-12-2010, 08:57 PM

Wait, you mean my Winchester Ranger .30-30 isn't enough rifle for 90% of all survival situations?

Tell me... tell me where can I buy a KAC SR-47.

/aghast

KirStang · 10-14-2010, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slims

...while spending your entire paycheck on the latest bizarre rifle that is absolutely awesome due to it's rarity despite the fact you could never find ammunition/parts for it if any of the aforementioned disasters came to fruition.

....But the SCAR-H is so pretty...

10-09-2010, 09:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	where open carry is not only legal, but is a guaranteed constitutional right, if you're stopped and harassed or arrested by police for disorderly conduct, who broke the law? this is the major issue I have with people who frown upon open carry and would prefer people carry concealed. why should I have to pay around 250 dollars to be able to exercise a guaranteed constitutional right? why should I have to pay 250 dollars so that when I exercise my guaranteed right I don't offend or scare idiots? __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

10-09-2010, 10:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	... Last edited by silent_jay; 02-13-2011 at 10:45 AM..

10-11-2010, 04:23 AM	#7 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	DK, I'm disappointed at the quality of your recent posts. Are you not feeling well? I realize times are tough for True Patriots, but you gotta man up and continue to spew forth your rhetoric with the manic fervor that once captivated the dozen or so people here at the TFP who need you for balance. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

10-11-2010, 09:52 AM	#9 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hey, if we're going to be in this together... I need you to make a commitment. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

10-11-2010, 09:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	You don't need a wife. You just need an AK47 and rich people to oppress you. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

10-11-2010, 03:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
Daka Tilted Location: Fort Lauderdale	Interesting points on "open carry". In an urban setting, I don't quite understand the open carry reasoning. Hunting in the woods is a different story.. I have been carrying concealed for many many years, there is NO way I would wear a gun exposed on my person, that alone is asking for trouble...(one way or another) In my years of carrying I have NEVER had to un holster my weapon NEVER... I certainly would not try to stop a robbery, (unless it was to me) I carry to protect myself and my family from random violence...

10-12-2010, 05:32 PM	#12 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Ahem If you feel just 1 AK-47 is sufficient then you are missing entirely what the gun-nut community is all about. It's not the practical preparation for a world catastrophe/revolution/social unrest/etc. It's the desire to fantasize about being the hero who saves the day in all of the above while spending your entire paycheck on the latest bizarre rifle that is absolutely awesome due to it's rarity despite the fact you could never find ammunition/parts for it if any of the aforementioned disasters came to fruition. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

10-12-2010, 08:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Wait, you mean my Winchester Ranger .30-30 isn't enough rifle for 90% of all survival situations? Tell me... tell me where can I buy a KAC SR-47. /aghast __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."