Plan9

Here's my top two guns that I wish would just fucking go away. There are a myriad of reasons as to why I wish they would all be sucked into a black hole... some being technical such as materials or finish, some simply design flaws, and some based on the attitudes of shooters.

The Springfield XD
The "Bubba Glock" is perhaps the most annoying pistol in the universe as of its release under the Springfield Armory stamp (despite originating in Croatia). I figure that any product that occupies 17 separate advertisement pages in an issue of American Rifleman has to be a total turd if for no other reason than its being pushed so hard. Also, there are almost as many models and variations of the XD as there are of H&K, S&W, and Glock combined. Now, there is nothing particularly bad about the XD design (looks are a matter of taste)... in fact, its a perfectly acceptable pistol with many modern features and is probably perfect for someone who only wants to buy one handgun and use it for target practice and self defense, but if their advertising campaign wasn't close to being subliminal it would really help their image. It's unclear how the XD developed its comical Bubba image, as similar products are produced by H&K, S&W, and Glock. Aside from the old school M1A series (SOCOM II RULES!!! *gag*), Springfield hasn't come up with anything particular good (or original) in a long, long time.

The Taurus Judge
Take two of the most generic-rare and largely antiquated calibers you can find, .45 Long Colt and .410 shotgun, and combine them into one monstrous abortion of a double action revolver that nobody can take seriously... and profit off idiots who would also purchased a Swiss Army Knife with a Fleshlight attachment. Needless to say, the Judge is often purchased by people that own the Springfield XD. It even comes in four flavors: regular, tactical (rail ZOMG), magnum, and snubnose. I find it hilarious that they made one designed for concealed carry... they bob the hammer and give it a barrel less than half the length of the cylinder. What makes this gun even more atrocious is that holster companies are in on this train wreck. Taurus has a hard time building credibility amongst serious shooters and producing miracle products like this 5-shot failcannon isn't helping.

...

Fellow TFP gun nuts, what say you about guns that need to be This-Is-Sparta'd?

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Jinn

There are only two types people who own these guns. Douchebags who want to look like badasses, and actual badasses (apparently) trying to look like douchebags. Unfortunately its about 99 of the former to every 1 of the latter.

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The_Dunedan

I prefer the XD to any other pistol in its' class, and have one for my carry gun. It is:
1: More comfortable than the Glock
2: Easier to disassemble and clean than the Glock.
3: Possessed of a -far- superior trigger to the Glock.
4: Possessed of a much better control suite than a Glock: I like being able to reach/feel/use my controls, as opposed to needing GPS just to find the fuckers.

I've also found it to be supremely reliable, with all ammo and under all conditions, dirty or clean. It puts the rounds right where I tell it to, has never malfunctioned on me, and comes with safety features which make it extremely attractive to families.

I do have to take serious issue with this. In my extensive experience (we've carried, sold, owned and used the Judge since it came out) the Judge offers more capability in one place than any other product on the market. With the heavyweight .45LC ammo it can approach or even exceed the ballistics of the .44 Remington Magnum, making it suitable even for large bears. The .410 capability makes it far superior to anything else out there for small pests, snakes, etc, and with .410 Buckshot (especially Federal's new 1200fps high-performance loads, or the even uglier Winchester PDX-1) it is a more-than-workable close-range defensive weapon. It's especially well-suited to use from a car, or for home-defense in built-up areas where overpenetration is a significant concern. As a "Woods gun" it's literally unbeatable IMO. Load the first two chambers with birdshot (for snakes), third chamber with .410 000 Buckshot (rabid small critters) and the last two chambers with .45LC: right there you have one weapon, with one loadout, that's literally capable of taking any animal which walks, crawls, slithers or swims on the North American continent. No other handgun offers that kind of versatility. And if you -do- have to draw down on a Bad Guy or a bear, so what? About the time he/it gets the memo that it might oughta get mad 'cause you just blasted it in the face with birdshot, those .45's are on the way and he's got -much- bigger problems!

Is it a target weapon? IDPA match gun? Skeet shotgun? No, and of course you'll be disappointed if you try to use it like that. It's a close-range defensive arm: a perfectly legal 5-shot revolving sawn-off shotgun. Until and unless they bring back the Ithaca Auto & Burgaler (and ditch the NFA) IMO it's probably the best close-range arm available right now for someone who hasn't the time or interest in becoming truly proficient, or who needs to potentially throw down a lot of lead in a short period of time with minimal overpenetration concerns and/or aiming time (carjacking).

Edited To Add: I also haven't seen this "problem with serious shooters" you mention. Most of my more serious customers (competitive shooters, 1911 freaks, one old Bounty Hunter) have nothing but good to say about Taurus: Their M-9 knockoff is 1/2 the price with no frame cracking problems, their PT-1911 has $1600 worth of name-brand extras on a $650.00 out-of-the-box race/target gun (and Kimber/Wilson/Les Baer have been forced to unsuccessfully compete), the PT-24/7 has probably the best ergonomics I've seen on a full-sized handgun in a -long- time, and their revolvers are licensed copies of S&W designs for half the money or less. Sure the action will need a little work, but with all the money they save on the buying end you can afford a few minutes with an emory cloth or a coupla hundred bucks at Cylinder & Slide.

As for guns I wish would go away? That's easy.

I want that damned-fool AA-12 thing to just dry up and blow away. The design has been around since 1964. Chuck Atchisson couldn't make it work. Nobody else has been able to either. But every week, I get some numbnut either asking me when we'll have one he can buy (with the $5.00 he hasn't spent on meth or comic-books yet), or bragging about how he used his personal AA-12 to mow down a dozen Hajjis in Sadr City, Afghanistan. It doesn't work reliably, it probably never will, Civvies will never be able to own one in any case, and the Saiga does everything the AA does except break down (for a tenth of the price and a twentieth of the mechanical headache). When the Spetznaz wanted a full-auto shotgun, they took a proven 104% reliable design, chambered it in 12ga, and went back to killing Chechens. When the Green Berets wanted a full-auto shotgun, we took 40 years to cobble together a hybrid of 3 different designs that has never worked properly and made it look like a lunch-box.

Shadowex3

You both forgot that the Judge can also fire flares. So in 5 shots you can hit someone with bird shot, buck shot, roundball, hollowpoint, and then set them on fire. Personally I can't think of a better way of being simultaneously over and underprepared for every possible situation, including RPing against mooks with batshit immunities.

It's like a store-brand wine tasting of ways to fuck someone up, all you need to do is find some way to integrate a tazer and you can call "BINGO!".

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Baraka_Guru

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-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+- The tangential discussion about the Desert Eagle has been moved here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...agle-suck.html Please do not carry on that same discussion in this thread. Thank you.

telekinetic

I'm going to go with the H&K SL8. Not because of any particular malice against its design, but for the legislative bullshit that required them to so aggressively bastardize the G36's appearance, design, and functionality for the civilian market.

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twisted no more

Shadowex3

As a real content post I'll go out on a limb and suggest the Stoner family rifles. While they aren't nearly as terrible as they used to be (to the point a lot of the hate is operating on inertia alone) between them being so amazingly overused and overhyped and the Evil Black Rifle thing I just can't stand seeing them anymore without thinking "Great, ANOTHER one".

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raptor9k

deleted

Plan9

Whoa. Gonna take me a million years to respond to this thread.

Well, some people find the gargantuan grip on a Para double stack to be comfy, too. Comfort is crazy subjective.

How easy does it need to be to disassemble? Like an M9? I have no problems popping the slide off a Glock after clearing, depressing the trigger and pulling down slightly on the disassembly nubbins while pulling the slide to the rear from underneath. Proper technique helps.

The ~3.8# trigger on a Glock 34 isn't bad. And the XD isn't as nice as the SA pull on a H&K. Triggers are also a personal flavor... how shitty was the trigger on my work M4? Real shitty. And it was a Colt made for the US Gov't to go play GI Joe overseas.

Hmm... the controls on a Glock are the slide lock and mag release, right? The slide lock is a rack 'n go type and the mag release is a twist-the-grip type that requires immediate replacement. I concur on both of these and this is the reason why I run a G34... said model fixes both of those problems.

What safety features are you referring to? Firearm safety is all about the operator, not the firearm... unless you're shooting something made by Vector.

...

This sounds a little like the shooter is maybe Jerry Miculek. I can't spin a DA revolver cylinder that fast and hit anything, bro. Especially not a smaller .45 LC. This "Swiss Army Gun" setup might work better if you have less options and more immediate control of the loads (like a SxS coach gun w/ double triggers, for example). It seems the 21 foot rule plus this gun equals a total mess. And I don't believe in mixing ammo in guns, counting rounds, etc. That's for TeeVee and people who want to accidentally put a 12g slug through their wall when they were expecting birdshot. I got to thinking about that when I was considering my home defense setup for my 12g and this last pricey tactical carbine course only reinforced it: nobody counts rounds when they're stressed and if you can have something, like ammo, be consistent, then you should. The last thing I'd want is to pull the trigger on my self defense gun during a carjacking and get something other than the most powerful round in the gun... nor would I want to be in a situation where my follow-up shot was something that only pissed the guy off after I botched my first shot, etc, et al.

If someone doesn't have the time or interest in becoming proficient with a firearm, they shouldn't own one. This doesn't mean they have to take tactical pistol classes and shoot a smoking IDPA score, but it does mean they should understand how to manipulate the weapon under stress and the importance of putting rounds in the black.

If I have to spend "a coupla hundred bucks" at Cylinder and Slide on a $350 revolver, I'm just going to spend the $450 on a S&W that doesn't require such. Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with Taurus products (despite not owning any) but if I have to do significant work to a piece outta the box, I'm going to go somewhere else. Would you buy a new car that requires a brake job before it leaves the lot? Now, I say that as the owner of a Keltec and the guy who owns failtacular firearms that essentially pin him with a douchebag badge. Yes, yes, I admit it... I helped a guy rebuild a Leinad M11.

This is an excellent candidate for the scrap pile and I completely concur. The AA12 is almost as craptacular as the infamous Pancor Mk III "Jackhammer". The US Army would have been better served by the friggin' Protecta.

Also: Everybody knows you're a total Saiga fanboy, Dunedan.

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Whatever you can carry.

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KirStang

Holy shit.

The 'Taurus *TACTICAL* *OPERATOR*' (I think they forgot a couple more references to SEALs and BLACKOPS in there).



Taurus Tactical Operator Gun Nuts Media

Plan9

Gnarly! Yeah, I just saw that on Reddit. It's a joke picture, in case anybody else was wondering. I love the comments, though.

"Don't let Taurus see this over-the-top spoof! They'll call your bluff and make one. They'll offer it in .470 Nitro Express!"

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

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KirStang

Ok,

So I've heard the M249 works up to a point, then everything starts to fail and it goes to shit. I've also heard the M9 has a short ass service life.

Never heard anything about the M203 sucking though.

Please do tell, me, as a future service member, what joys I will encounter with these weapon systems.

Walt

Just my two cents. I'm sure lots of people feel differently.

I've never had any issues with the SAW that couldn't be fixed with tape and zip ties. But it's heavy and doesn't do anything that a full-auto M4 can't do aside from keep more rounds on tap. If I am going to carry something heavy, I would prefer that it bring more ass than my M4.

Lots of folks disagree with me on the M9, but I've never had one that worked worth a damn. I don't like the exposed barrel. The overly complicated locking block always makes me want to smash things. It's oversized and weighs elevendy billion pounds. They should all be replaced by G19's and then get melted down to make more 240s.

The 203 doesn't really suck until you attach it to your rifle and you have to move around a little bit. Then it fucks up the balance and makes the whole system awkward. Especially in tight spaces like when you have to stick your rifle out the window of your truck or clear a building. Sometimes a 40mm grenade is needed....but not often enough to justify messing with your primary weapon. I would be all for bringing back a shortened version of the M79 and letting it hang out in my assault pack until needed.

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longbough

+1 on the m9 and the deagle

Ruger p95 or any p series pistol

HK USP in 9mm ... if you're going to have a large frame why have it in a puny 9mm?

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

genuinegirly

I hope I'm not derailing the thread too much, but I only really know abut sci-fi weapons. Maybe I should start a thread about those...
Still, I never understood the excitement of these:

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Walt

Dude, really? Its a frickin' LASER. Death ray qualities aside, it has a "stun" setting which is by far the coolest thing ever. In my minds eye, getting hit with a phaser set to stun is like having your body covered in testicles and then falling down a flight of stairs. The best part is that no actual damage is inflicted so you can cap your buddies all day long without feeling like a jerk.

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longbough

Are you kidding? The future lawyers will be all over that stun setting saying they induce heart attacks, neuropathies etc. - just like the taser.

Jackass 3000 - Johnny Knoxville XII gets stunned in the nutsack ... OK that would be pretty cool.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

fiatguy85

I don't see why you hate the XD so much. It's pretty much a glock with a different grip angle and a grip safety. And maybe I'm just not familiar with all of the advertising, if that's what really bothers you. I like my XD and I've had no problems with it.

I don't consider myself a redneck, nor do I plan on buying a Taurus Judge, which I agree with you on it being fairly ridiculous.

Plan9

I totally dig it when threads like this get derailed by someone like GenuineGirly. Seriously. This is why TFP is the best forum on Earth.

/attempting to hide his innocent-Mormon-plus-scifi-nerdgirl fetish

...

What did they do to you at OSUT? Jesus Christ.

...

I don't really wanna get into a technical discussion because it's super boring and nobody here really gives a shit... so...

Yeah, I just don't like it. It's nothing amazing in a world of nothing amazing pistols. It may be a good gun for some but I rate it up there with clunky Ruger (gag) and FN (meh) and *cough* Taurus *cough* and other "service pistols" that don't really bring anything new to the table except parts/accessories that you can't get as easily as a Glock or Sig or S&W. If you have a boring 9mm pistol, at least have the one that you can holster / fix easily.

It's another boring (and questionable) Honda Civic in a world of boring (but tested) Honda Civics.

I speak as a dumbass who uses guns at work, so my perspective is a little skewed to that side.

Back at home in the safe I have numerous services pistols from Glock, S&W, Sig, Beretta, Colt, etc.

I've shot them all extensively and have come to the conclusion that they all do the same goddamn thing.

Glocks don't amaze me because they work so well, other guns amaze me because they don't.

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omega48038

Just about anything made in Southern California.

fiatguy85

Fair enough.

Plan9

Yeah, I disagree. The SAW is a fire team maneuver support weapon and, if I recall correctly, is one of the more successful weapons (based on body count) in the GWoT. I think it's a good thing that the SAW weighs three times as much as the M4. It helps when you're spraying those 5 round bursts from the rice paddy prone. The M4A1 (full auto) doesn't have a quick-change barrel and its light weight and small magazine capacity make it absolutely useless as a fire team maneuver support weapon. I really like the Ares Shrike concept (belt fed M4), but I'd have to see how it handles recoil on burst. The M4 is a point weapon, the SAW is an area / volume (keep heads down) weapon. I like it. Like the M240B, it sucks to carry (awkward ergonomics and horrible sling attachment points)... but it tends to be a joy to shoot. It isn't perfect, but I'll take it over a "M4A1/M240B ONLY" if that was my situation.

Don't get me wrong, I think the SAW needs several major exterior improvements. The US Army should switch to the Mk 46 or an updated equiv. Get rid of the useless/dangerous magwell, beef up the bipod, put a good sliding stock on it (fuck the POS folding stocks), beef up sling hooks, change the takedown pins so they don't get loose / fall out (coat hanger WECSOG, anyone?), go to a safety with a rotating paddle instead of a crossbolt, etc.

15 pounds isn't good but it isn't bad. The Thompson M1 weighed over ten pounds empty and Tom Hanks killed a frickin' metric tonne of Nazis with it. The M1 Garand weighed how much? And I take it you think something like the Mk 48 (18 lbs, 7.62) would be a better 1-in-4 weapon for infantry squads.

Until we can get an updated intermediate cartridge (6.8'd!), the 5.56 carbine/SAW remains a solid, logistically sound combo for today's video-game-trained-grunts-vs.-dirtbags-in-mandresses "war." I think the biggest problem with the military is that everybody wants more-power-more-rounds when we went from more-power-less-rounds (7.62 M14) to less-power-more-rounds (5.56 M16) during the last 50 years. Part of the power problem is being addressed with the new generation of military-only super-headsplatter 5.56 ammo that you probably know way more about than I do.

This. Times elevendy billion.

I generally agree with this as well. I was actually thinking about spending some BAH on a KAC M203 stand alone collapsible stock for mine the last time out (Gearqueer'd!). Then I wised up and decided that my uniform-over-mission 1SG would throw a E9-grade shitfit over the fact that my never-to-be-fired 40mm grenade launcher wasn't mounted to my carbine and secured with 19 miles of lacing wire. I see kids walking around today with the M320s (funny nomenclature for the 203's replacement) on their M4s and I can't help but think that it is another case of "too much technology for no reason." I like that the M320 can do stand-alone mode, though. It should go, as you said, in a scabbard on the grenadier's assault pack. The M203, however, was excellent at storing Fig Newtons during patrols. I think the future of grenade launchers is something like the AICW Metal Storm stacked "Roman Candle" 40mm.

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Shadowex3

Speaking on a relatively minor gripe with it I'll second the m9 mainly because I think it is one of the ugliest pistols I've ever seen and it's use in the military has made it start cropping up in games so much that I'm really getting sick of seeing it.

Actually I'm going to defend the concept at least compared to the m203 since it's mainly just fixing some of the m203's stupid design mistakes and only weights .3 of a pound more.

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Plan9

Ounces are pounds in the case of something that doesn't get used a helluva lot and takes away from your primary gun.

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Whatever you can carry.

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skinnymofo

i have an xdm
I shot lots of different glocks before i decided on the XD. Didnt like how the glocks felt or shot in my hand. at all. However the original xd fit my hand right so i got one. Then sold it and moved on to the XDm which feels even better, doesnt weigh too much and holds a ton of 9mm.
That said, i dont read gun magazines much so it was all based on my personal experiences with the guns. Also everyone i know who had a glock is switching to XD's after having shot mine... Personal preference i guess.

As for the Judge, i bought one for my brother for christmas a couple of years back. I agree its a rediculous gun but it doesnt make it not fun to shoot. When your hand needs a break from the 44mag you can take one step lower and do the judge.

As far as guns that need to go away? I completely dislike all the "tactical" looking civilian shotguns. I got my brother (on a different year) a nice remington 870 and he proceeded to turn it into this stupid looking mossberg clone.
bleh.
Also i dont care much for the old ruger LCP's. have not tried the new ones but the old you were better off just throwing at the person

mkillebrew

Glock, XD, Walther P99/S&W 99, anything labeled "desert eagle" that's prefixed with a "micro" or "baby" or in 1911 form with that same eagle naming convention, Steyr M9/40, and about every other striker fired plastic pistol. It's not because I'm a 1911 fanatic that I detest plastic striker-fired guns, although I am a 1911 fanatic, it's that they have a mushy trigger that's as heavy as it is long, you can't swap out grip panels (backstrap only doesn't count), they're single-action with no restrike capability without cycling the action, the trigger safety is a novelty that only appeals to marketing, and I can't leave out the fact that they're ugly enough to make a freight train take a dirt road. Then there's the kel-tecs, don't get me started on those.

Walt

...for the life of me, I cannot imagine why you would need "restrike" capability.

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Plan9

Because ammunition costs so much that jacking one out and going to the next is a huge deal, even when defending your life.

/guy picking up 9mm rounds in the gravel after transition/reload drills at various gun classes because he's a cheapskate

/sarcasm

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Shadowex3

What's wrong with Kel-Tec? There's a place for plastic cereal-box yoga guns in this world.

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Slims

I agree

Unless you are shooting a revolver, immediate action does not include pulling the trigger again...even on pistols which allow you to do so, such as the M9.

Many, many things can go wrong and keep an automatic pistol from firing. Most of those can be solved by simply re-seating the magazine and cycling the action, including a light primer strike....The odds of a second pull of the trigger fixing a problem are so low you should assume a more general failure rather than wasting time on a low percentage fix.

I used to think like mkillebrew, but since then I have fired many tens of thousands of rounds in my career and have had many, many malfunctions, including failure to fire and it really opened my eyes. Most of the time it was because I either 1: forgot to chamber a round (embarrassing, but it has happenned); 2: the round was not picked up and chambered when the action cycled (stuck in magazine due to sand, defective mag, mag not fully seated, etc); 3: light primer strike because the weapon did not *quite* return fully into battery which would not be fixed by a second trigger pull (probably dirt, worn out weapon, etc.); 4: defective primer just doesn't fire. 5: some other problem that isn't noticed until the shooter attempts to fire the weapon (failure to return to battery comes to mind, stovepipe, out of ammunition, etc) and lastly: light primer strikes for seemingly no reason, round fires when re-inserted and fired.

All of these will most likely be fixed by slapping the magazine to ensure it is fully seated and to 'jar' any sluggish rounds loose, racking the action and then continuing to shoot. If you evaluate your weapon while you are doing this you will know whether the problem warrants remedial action or some specific corrective procedure (hand-rake to clear a stove-pipe for instance). Unless you have a bad magazine or some catastrophic failure this is the most reliable and fasted way, on average, to get your weapon back up.

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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

mkillebrew

hard primers, inertial firing pin doesn't weigh enough, grime in the firing pin channel, deformed firing pin from peening after a lot of use, and so on can cause light strikes. At the range it's not an issue, in a self defense scenario it could be game ending. If you're being shot at you may not have use of your offhand anymore, or no hard point to snag the slide on to cycle it, or it just costs you valuable time to slingshot the slide. With a hammer fired plastic pistol like an HK, FNP, or that horrid SIG P250, a second pull of the trigger would obviate the malfunction drill you'd otherwise perform.

Is it entirely likely that I'll have a light primer strike in a self defense scenario? not at all. I doubt I'll ever have to draw mine in my life, but it is a possibility and an opinion I'll hold firmly to regarding striker-fired guns.

Walt

1. There are drills for that.
2. It costs more time to re-cock the pistol and then chamber a new round when the first one fails to fire again. Skip the middle step and just chamber a new round.

I am going to echo Slims: if I get a click and no bang, it would be foolish of me to cock the hammer and try it again.

1. If the round didn't fire the first time, there is likely something wrong with it. Maybe it got wet. Who knows. But if the primer is jacked, then the powder could be, too. I am not going to risk a game-ending squib load when I could just as easily move on to the next round in the magazine.
2. If the round doesn't go bang, it has lost my trust. The general rule of thumb is if you can see/shoot at a bad guy, he can see and shoot at you. I don't want to expose myself with a "maybe" round. The risk is not worth the gain.

I challenge you to show me a single serious shooting school that teaches the "recock the hammer" method over "tap, rack, bang".

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mkillebrew

I was thinking more along the lines of a double-action pistol where it just requires a second pull of the trigger. The 1911 has its own set of flaws.

Now that I think about it, to depart from my combat tupperware bashing, the hi-power. I'm not much of a Browning hater at all, but a magazine safety? really? And the transfer bar in the slide, while a novel way to span the magazine well without adding girth, also just makes the trigger pull worse. Sure it was the first production staggered magazine pistol and did away with the swinging link to simplify operation and manufacture, but those ideas were much better implemented in other guns.

And to be clear I'm not just parroting the opinions of others, I do own both a Glock and a hi-power.

ssg

The SKS.

Plan9

...and why.

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ssg

Cause it sucks and rednecks love it lol.

Shadowex3

I'm half redneck, must be why I want to know what you think sucks about it so much.

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Seer666

I'm going to have to vote for the Mac 10. Never shot the gun myself, but the sheer number of douche bags I've seen in the fan base are enough to make me never want to touch it.

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mkillebrew

I wouldn't at all say it sucks, it's like a shortened SVT-40 really. It is, however, quite often the target of bubbas and vandalized into cocked hat in realtree.