Plan9

Yeah, the numbers seem a little wonky.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Jinn

I can't believe I missed another thread where SF told us how easy it would be to do something he's got no idea about.. wasn't the last one bears?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

LordEden

I saw a special on the discovery channel once that alligators put out 500 pounds per square inch of biting power with their jaws. Even if it's half of that, a dog's bite would be powerful enough to rip your leg/arm apart. I think it's less of how much pressure it is and how the teeth work to rip your skin/muscles apart.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Shadowex3

Because it was a bad estimate, you can find some actual numbers here.

Consider though that humans are quite easily capable of biting sizeable chunks out of each other with a mere 120lbs of force, even a mere 2-3x that with teeth designed for killing and eating animals in the wild will be... bad.... to say the least.

__________________

Jinn

There was also this study: Measurement of bite force in dogs: a pilot study. [J Vet Dent. 1995] - PubMed result

"A force transducer was developed to measure bite force in dogs. A total of 101 readings was obtained from 22 pet dogs ranging in size from 7 to 55 kg. Bite forces ranged from 13 to 1394 Newtons with a mean for all dogs of 256 Newtons and a median of 163 Newtons. Most measurements fell within the low end of the range, with 55% of the biting episodes less than 200 Newtons and 77% less than 400 Newtons."

1394 Nm is 313.38 pounds, at the top end (in this study).

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Walt

SF,

I am 99% sure you are trolling, but I will play along.

Until fairly recently, I made my living as an Army working dog handler. I have trained dogs to bite, released them on people and have been bitten myself. I don't like it when people play the "credentials" game, though I feel that sharing mine would help to validate what most everyone else has said.


The only guaranteed instant kill shots require a direct hit to the CNS. Good luck with that.

The dog will most likely bite whatever is closest and most readily available to get its prey immobilized or at least knocked to the ground. They then usually release the bite and go for the face/neck. It's a hunting tactic that has worked for them in the wild since the Pleistocene.

You are correct that a dog could not bite your arm off in a single go, though it is more than capable of tearing tendons, ripping flesh from bone, breaking your arm and dislocating your shoulder. I know its anecdotal, but I have personally witnessed all of these things happen from dog bites.

Good luck with that. Watch a dog bite and you will see it lower its ass (center of gravity) and pull with its legs, pop its hips and make violent twisting motions with its neck to both cause immense physical damage and pull you off balance. If you are still standing after the initial hit, you won't be for long.

You may have the "intelligence" to go for the throat (just like a dog) but you have to remember that dogs are a product of millions of years of combat. Their necks are the strongest muscles on their body so a short punch or kick wont do shit. Their bones are both flexible and strong so you will not be able to twist it (even if they held still long enough for you to try). Going for the eyes is largely ineffective. They are small, moving targets. On the off chance that you manage to poke one, or even gouge one out, the dog will continue to fight. They do not feel pain like you and I do; they will keep fighting @ 100% until they are physically broken or dead.

[citation needed]

Dunedan may have exaggerated a little bit, though a dog bite is no joke. Dogs can exert tremendous levels of pressure (several hundred pounds) b/c their bones and teeth are exceptionally dense due to millions of years of evolution...not unlike a shark is able to exert thousands of pounds of force with cartilage and teeth.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Below is a good representation of the ways different dogs attack. Feel free to point out exactly when/where the decoy (the guy in the bite suit) has the opportunity to grab and split the dogs hind legs.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

The_Dunedan

Thanks awfully, boy do I feel embarrassed! Sorry for the incorrect info, folks.

When an animal's jaw closes around a bone, the force is distributed from a large surface area (the teeth and jaws) down to a smaller surface area on the cutting edges of the teeth. This has the effect of spreading the bite force out over the architecture of the jaw in the biting animal, while in the -bitten- animal all that force is instead focused onto the receiving surface via the cutting edges of the biter's teeth. It's all about sectional density; the same way you don't have to push very hard to apply a few dozen pounds per square inch, a dog doesn't have to push very hard to produce two hundred. Pointed or edged teeth translate that few pounds of force (applied to the tooth by the several square inches of your jaw) into multiples of that number of pounds of force applied to the target object by the much smaller-in-area contact surfaces of the teeth, the number depending upon how sharp the cutting edges are. Remember, even with less and a third of the average bite strength of a dog, we humans still tear our way through lots of meat. And we're made of meat too.

telekinetic

I'm sure the trainer would call him off before he killed you












....too far? Come one, he left himself wide open!

__________________
twisted no more

ring

I was wondering who would take that tasty bait.

Strange has a good sense of humor. I don't think he'll be offended.

Strange Famous

All these people carry on like dogs won the evolutionary battle, not humans.

Imagine the biggest, strongest dog you can on a leash... pulling against a normal man he will go nowhere, and be led by the man.

A fully grown man is stronger than a dog, that is undeniable.

A normal man is more intelligent than a dog, that is undeniable. A dog does not have the intelligence to use a weapon, a man does.

_

In a real life situation - without police with guns to back the dog up - if a police dog was set lose on its own against the average criminal, the dog would be killed.

_

Like I said, I dont want to fight a pitbull for fun, and I have no doubt a pitbull could hurt me.... but if it came to it, the dog would die, not me. The simple mechanics that I weigh over twice as much, am physically stronger, am capable of greater depths of aggression and more intelligent methods of combat will doom the dog. Just as I would be if I tried to attack a 600 lbs Polar bear in a straight physical fight. I am not arrogant enough to think I can man handle a creature twice as strong as me, yet some people seem to imagine these dogs are arrogant enough to want to attack me and think they would win.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

Strange,

We won the "evolutionary battle" over alligators, crocodiles, tigers, lions, and bears...

...but they'd still fuck us up one-on-one.

...

As I write this, I've got a pitbull sitting next to me. He's cuddly. If he was pissed at me... I'd be afraid for my life.

He might not kill me, but he'd certainly give me a run for my evolutionary money.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Dunedan

Fanciful, uninformed, ignorant bullshit. Try that with a German Shepherd or Czechoslovakian Vlcak sometime, all 300 pounds of you. Once the road-rash heals, come back and report.

It is deniable, and it -has been- denied, a few posts back, by a person who until recently made his living working with dogs. Walt is very nearly your weight (all muscle and hair), and was paid by the US Army to train and use German Shepherds. -He- is the one in this conversation who knows what he's talking about, so I'd listen to him before spouting this nonsense.

Interesting. Got any proof this has ever happened? Anywhere? Anything to back up your assertion other than uninformed opinion? C'mon, gimme one: a Police dog turned loose against an "average" or even a decidedly "above average" crim and killed. If you can find me five instances at all, I'll be amazed. If you can find one where a criminal killed the K9 without the use of a firearm, next time I transit to Prague through England your next trip to Stringfellows is on me; drinks and everything.

Then I'm sure you can find lots of instances of people killing Pitbulls when attacked. Please do. Please post them here.

No debate here. Bullshit. Bullshit. Debatable. Bullshit.

Dogs are not arrogant. They are highly-evolved, indeed artificially-evolved with the help of human's superior intelligence, superpredators. Pound-for-pound they are among the strongest animals on the planet. Let's see you and four friends of similar size pull a sled that weighs as much as the five of you together at 15mph. Let's see y'all pull that sled -at all-. Now consider the Iditarod, and the fact that Inuit and other First Nations folks have been using dogs about the size of a Pittbull to haul walrusses and hunks of whale around for a few thousand years.

Again, if your points were in any way valid, you'd be able to come up with some examples to support them. You apparently cannot. If you -can- find such an example, please present it for consideration. Otherwise, your arguments remain the uninformed opinion of a person with no professional training or education of any kind in the field under discussion.

Baraka_Guru

Evolution isn't even a battle; it's an outcome of traits based on environmental/situational pressures. Dogs just happen to be well-suited to fighting without the use of tools. Humans? Not so much. We're rather tender and blunt around the edges.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

nomcat

This Irish wolfhound begs to differ.

__________________
There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.

Baraka_Guru

Do not underestimate....

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

I could post video's of strong man contests with guys pulling trucks...

In a tug of war, a man will beat a dog every time.

Dogs cant pull HGV's can they?

__

On fight skill, the ability for a human to use a weapon places it above a dog without any further debate

__

On aggression, surely you could not claim that any beast can match the human beings capacity for violence? A dog may attack when provoked or when triggered by instinct. A man can run away, get a gun, and come and shoot the dog when he is peacefully resting, he might see the dog a year later and shoot it. Nothing comes close to man in terms of capacity for aggressive and violent action.

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

oh, and btw - a quick search on google showed me several links estimating that approx 9 million dogs are killed each year in the USA alone.

Furthermore it is estimated 145 humans have been killed by pitbulls in the last 10 years, and 200 pitbulls are killed by humans every day in Los Angeles alone...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

And those men are anomalies, "outliers" in statistical jargon. They do not represent the average. We are dealing with average representatives of each species. The average dog is -much- stronger than the average human, period. Please refer again to the large gentleman with the professional career handling these creatures.

Bullshit. Citation needed, or this is simply bullshit. I'd -love- to see you win (or even seriously contest) a tug-of-war with a dog even half your weight.

They can and do. Have you ever seen how sled-dogs train in the off-season? By pulling automobiles and loaded farm wagons.

Bullshit. If this was the case, no military in the world would use dogs, and armed men never would have been killed by them, which has happened repeatedly in history. Look up Hernando deSoto's Iberian War Dogs (and the carnage they inflicted in the New World) sometime. Likewise the Roman army's use of attack dogs in the Gallic Wars, etc.

Killed for livestock predation or euthanized by Animal shelters. NOT killed in the course of attacking people.

The people killed by Pitbulls were killed by attacking dogs (uncontrolled environment). The 200/day are killed in animal shelters (controlled environment). There is a significant difference.

Strange Famous

Yes, the difference between a dumb animal the apex predator of the earth!

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

There's no way you can possibly be serious. If you truly cannot grasp the difference between an unrestrained dog killing a human with its' teeth in a fight (analagous to combat), and a group of humans killing a restrained dog in a controlled setting through the use of poisonous chemicals (analagous to an execution), you are simply beyond help, and should demand a refund of all the money spent on your education, as it has simply been wasted.

Strange Famous

I dont deny there is a difference. And that difference is why humanity wins, and wild animals lose. Everything is on our side, because all nature exists in the society of our creation and control.

A dog can attack me with his teeth, and even if he was to beat me and kill me (which we already have stated is highly unlikely) he would be hunted down, and my fellow humans would avenge me, catch the dog and leave him locked in a cage, and poisoned until dead.

__

But we cannot but come back to the central points

This whole thread started with a claim that some breeds of dog can survive a gunshot from a handgun to the top of their head, as they have thick skulls.

I accepted this, but have pointed out that in any case, while dogs may attack children, women, and elderly men in a very cowardly way - they will not attack grown men in their natural state. The only dog that will attack a fully grown man is one who is desperate with starvation, or who has been trained to do so by other men who have perverted the dogs natural instincts (that of a pack predator who will not take on a stronger creature one on one)

The dog is in fact naturally inclined to be subserviant to a stronger member of the pack. If a dog attacked me, and due to my superior weight and strength I was able to throw the dog about and subdue him with heavy blows - the dog would be cowed and become timid. If the dog was in fact insane and continued to attack it would probably be killed.

A dog can only kill me by biting me - one attack method from one angle - which would only be fatal if he ripped my throat out or was able to cause significant wounds that caused me to lose too much blood. If I am actively resisting - the dog will not have that chance.

I can kill a dog in literally a million ways. Almost any object could be a weapon. I understand trickery, tactics, use of weapons.

I am twice the size of the dog, and in terms of sheer brute force twice as strong.

(these video's of dogs pulling 1 tonne of weight are not impressive when the weight is on wheels! I easily can push a car, which ways 3 tonnes - this is also on wheels.)

_

This isnt about boasting or macho behaviour, just simple common sense. I dont claim I have an special powers. I just am stating that a fully grown man is stronger than a dog. The numbers of people killed in dog attacks is under 100 a year in the US I am sure. Far more dogs are killed by humans, not in dog pounds or puppy mills, but with brute violence.

I could pull that 1 tonne trolley on well lubricated wheels with my cock in fact.

Dogs may be faster than people, but they arent stronger. Amundsen used dogs to pull him to the South Pole and back, but most of the dogs didnt survive. Now, Captain Scott isnt a good example, but now many people have in fact man hauled to the South Pole and back without dying - and with far fewer humans pulling those weights than a dog team.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

Your entire contribution to this thread has been nothing -but- boasting and machismo. That's why everybody's so annoyed; this endless chest-pounding by a person who obviously and stubbornly has no idea what he's talking about. The "Common sense" herein has been contributed by numerous people, one of whom makes his living working with dogs, refuting your boastful, unsupported, macho bullshit. "I can kill a Pitbull by ripping it's jaws apart or breaking its' back by attacking a totally different part of its' body." Macho bullshit.

You've claimed the power to kill a Pitbull in a hand-to-hand fight. That's a pretty Goddamned special power.

And you are, here's the important part, WRONG.

Unless by "brute violence" you are referring to;
1: At extended range, with a firearm, or
2: Puppies or small dogs beaten/kicked to death,
...neither of which is within the scope of this discussion, you are simply wrong. Incorrect. Full of BS. Our discussing revolves around combat between humans and medium-large dogs and I assure you, very -VERY- few of those types of animals are ever beaten to death by humans, and certainly not in the context of that human being attacked by the dog in question. I challenge and defy you to provide even -one- case of this happening, anywhere in the world, in the past 5 years.

Please do, you'll do the species a favour.

Because the dogs starved to death or died of exposure! Strength had nothing to do with it!

And those humans were pulling less weight (lighter modern kit, better en-route resupply, freeze-dried food) over shorter distances. Apples and oranges. Seriously, learn how to make meaningful comparisons. Comparing the strength needed to pull a 1500-3,000lb dogsled to the strength needed to pull a 500-700lb ski-sled is just not viable. This isn't even apples and oranges; it's apples and bowling balls.

Strange Famous

Matt England Beat His Pitbull to Death After it Ran Away, Say Witnesses - True Crime Report

You only have to search google and you can find many stories

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

telekinetic

Beating *A* pitbull to death and beating *your* pitbull to death are two totally different things.

__________________
twisted no more

The_Dunedan

And you had only to search Google to find a single source after all these requests. You made the claims, proving them is/was your job.

I hereby acknowledge that you have found one story to back up your claim. However;

1: We do not know, and the article does not state, the age of the dogs. I am inclined to believe these were puppies, but am open to the facts being otherwise.
2: This is a single instance. Useful for proof of concept (that a human can potentially beat a Pitbull to death) but irrelevant beyond that, since it represents only a single datum.
3: Due to (2), this does not support your claims regarding the ease and universal possibility/likelihood of such an event.

Strange Famous

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | Man kills attack dog with knife

A vicious dog cowardly attacks a woman. A man goes into his house, gets two knives, and stabs dog to death.

and another similar story

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...aughter-two.do

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

From your first link (my commentary in bold):

So far, this link does nothing to bolster your claims. Three men were unable to win a tug-of-war with one dog, thus disproving your claim that a grown man is always stronger than a dog. Three grown men were weaker than this dog. Furthermore, the dog in question had to be dispatched with the use of two large knives, which a person -being attacked- will probably not be able to access. Furthermore, this is a far cry from your claim of being able to kill a dog with your bare hands, and especially far from the farcical ideas of killing it by ripping the jaws apart or forcing it into a split. Sources only help your case if they actually prove your points.

Strange Famous

I didnt recomend the jaw move, I recomended ripping the hind legs apart. If I was on the scene when that lady was attacked I could have done that dog over like that and maybe she wouldnt have had to go to hospital...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

Bullshit.

Utter, rank, stinking macho bullshit.

Look, Strange, go turn on Animal Planet or whatever the BBC equivalent is. Use YouTube if you must. Look up one of the numerous programmes they show under various iterations of "Animal Cops" or the like. Now think: if the sorts of things you've been saying and suggesting -actually- work, why are the trained Policemen, Animal Control officers, and Shelter workers having to struggle so hard with these creatures? Why does it sometimes take two strong men with a catch-pole to get control of a Pitbull bitch, nevermind a Rottweiler, German Shepherd, Pyrenees, etc? Why don't they just grab her up somehow? After all, they're grown men and she's just a little 60lb bitch, right?

Here's a video of a 55lb Pitbull bitch attacking an experienced Animal Control officer after having mauled a grown man and his young daughter, coming within an inch of killing the father. Bear in mind that the injuries suffered by the Animal Control officer (who had a catchpole in hand when the dog attacked) more than corroborate the ability of this particular 55lb female to have killed the father (a grown man) had she simply bitten his neck in a slightly different place.


Instance of a Pitbull mauling a person nearly to death and causing the loss of an arm after sever injuries to all extremeties. Bear in mind this is the second instance in which a dog has been reported as biting chunks out of people in the course of an attack. Do you seriously think you're going to be able to even attempt the kinds of things you propose while an animal such as this is crushing your hand, puncturing and cutting your pecs, and physically ripping chunks out of you?


Just do yourself a favour and look at what the professionals, people who deal with these critters on a daily basis, do. Take a good long watch, and observe how they control these animals, and how difficult it can be. Then ask yourself why they don't do what you suggest. Granted, they're not trying to kill the animals; but if killing them with all our alleged superiority is so easy, why is -catching- them not similarly simple? After all, we're HUMANS; shouldn't we be able to just take them under our arms like geese, or hold them down and inject a tranquiliser or something? Why all the violence, why all the struggle, whence all the difficulty? They're just dogs, after all. Cowards at heart, naturally subservient, physically weaker and intellectually inferior, right? I mean, these are the -pros-! If -anybody- should be making this look like a piece of cake, it should be these folks, right? Specially trained, lots of experience, frequently large burly men or simply packs of Officers with catchpoles and nets and sometimes firearms drawn. Should be easy, right? That Policeman in Vid #2 was an experienced combat veteran, a powerfully built man, and before doing anything "the decision was made to destroy the animal" which means he shot the dog, probably several times to make sure, in the head and from the far side of the fence. If he had half a brain (which he would have needed to survive combat) he put another round in the head to make sure when he got close enough to pick which eye-socket he wanted. Why all the fuss?

Edited to add:

Here's another fun one: what appears to be a Staffordshire Terrier having a go at the bumper of a Police car. Let's see you (or virtually anyone else here or anywhere; I know I certainly couldn't do it and I cut firewood all year) do this kind of damage, this quickly, with your allegedly ever so much more powerful hands and arms. This should give you some idea of the strength of a dog's neck and jaws. I guess you could say that this is what happens when a dog who chases cars finally catches one sleeping.

Strange Famous

I could post video's of human beings killing pitbulls - but as you already stated ancedotes arent the same as evidence. Neither video loaded very well for me, just kept buffering p but the second one seems to just be some people talking about a dog attack on a WOMAN, and the first video the victim also appears to be female.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

The sex of the victims is irrelevant. What matters is that;

1: In Vid #1, the victim was an experienced Animal Control officer, trained and equipped to deal with viscous animals, and she was still savaged by the dog in question. Likewise, the same dog had also mauled a grown man and his daughter immediately prior to the attack on the Animal Control officer, which is why Animal Control was called in the first place. The sex of the Animal Control officer is irrelevant; what matters is that her training and equipment should have, according to your line of reasoning, rendered the task of apprehending and controlling a mere 55lb dog simple. After all; she (the Officer) is a human, no? She's not as strong as a man, but surely she'd be strong enough, smart enough, superior enough, to handle a 55lb-er, right? Or is she by default a totally incompetent weakling because of her sex?

2: Vids #2 and #3 are in direct refutation of your assertions regarding the amount of damage these animals can do. Man or woman, human flesh is human flesh, and the dog in question literally -did- take someones arm off, and -did- take chunks out of them, two things which you insisted repeatedly were impossible. Vid #2 also shows that even trained combat veterans, in this case a powerfully-built Policeman armed with a firearm, nightstick, and probably a Tazer-gun, take great precautions with these animals. This forces me to wonder why, if killing one of these animals is so simple and capturing them probably equally so, didn't this big, strong Policeman use your methods and line of reasoning? Why the worry, why the fuss, why the gunfire? After all, he's HUMAN, and a grown MANLY MAN at that! He's stronger, smarter, more agile and more ferocious than the dog, right? And the dog's just a dumb, slow, weak, naturally-subservient coward, right? And then, of course, there's the simple sight of watching a dog literally rip chunks out of a car. Funny thing; that dog doesn't seem terribly cowardly or subservient as he's ripping that bumper off, just pissed.

Strange Famous

As I understand she lost her arm due to injuries caused, the dog didnt bite it off, it had to be amputated I guess.

And again, one off examples dont prove a case. If some people are intimidated by the dogs aggression and dont fight back likely they will be hurt.

I guarantee you, if I was armed with a stout wooden pole, a 55 lbs dog wouldnt get the better of me.

As for the fact a dog can destroy a car, so can I or any human being. I am sure I would do it in a much more measured and efficient way. All the dogs did was bit the front bumper. All the cop had to do was put his foot down and accelerate and the dogs wouldnt be a problem anymore.

I reset my connection and watched the attack video - in fact what happens is:

when the man strikes the dog with a stick it runs off, comes back to have another go when the owner encourages it, is struck again in the back and runs off again... the black woman who is attacked is clearly is impeded from defending herself by the intervention of the owner. If the fat woman had NOT been there to block the man with the bat the dog would have been beaten to death very easily.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

You know what? I don't even know why I'm having this discussion. You've been presented with multiple evidences of your error. You've been told, by a person who specializes in the area upon which you're pontificating, of your error, in some detail. You've been asked multiple times why, if your suggestions and appreciation of such situations is accurate, professionals in the field don't adopt it: you have been unable to answer. We have a professional here for you to consult, in fact, on this question: before you do, however, I'd review his earlier contribution (including video). You've also been asked if you have any experience living or working with large dogs; another question you've declined to answer. You've been presented with every opportunity to replace your ignorance with knowledge, and have simply refused to do so. If I found out I was wrong about some point of shooting, and had the chance to consult Rob Leatham or a Marine Scout Sniper or an SAS paratrooper in order to receive expert correction, I'd bloody well take it. You, on the other hand, in dealing with something that can be just as dangerous as a firearm, have not only refused but have been hostile to the expertise of someone who is highly trained in its' use. If you can't be bothered to listen to people who make their livings working with the thing you insist upon going on about, you deserve whatever happens when you try this crap for real. I just hope to God that your ridiculous ideas don't get someone else killed.

Strange Famous

Sorry, can we just actually go back to the three video's you posted

1 - a dog biting a woman and then running away after being hit twice in the back with a bat

2 - someone talking about a dog attack where we cant see what happens

3 - a pair of dogs taking about a minute to dismantle a bumper. You are quite right that neither you or me would be able to bite the bumper off a police car. That isnt the point. As human beings either you or me could kick the thing and then lever it off in 20 seconds - and thats the point

If you compare humans to dogs on the criteria of what a dog does (like how fast it can run, how hard it can bite) - no surprise a dog is better at being a dog than a human

If you base your comments on reality and common sense - you know a dog, while they can hurt people, while they can kill young or vulnerable humans, a human being is stronger than a dog and would beat a dog in a fight.

Just look at the video with the woman who is bitten. As the dog charges she moves backwards, almost cowers. She should have launched a hefty kick into the dogs face and it would have run straight off. Because of her job maybe she didnt want to hurt the dog, but if it had been a no limits fight she would have done so.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

No, we can't. Those videos were posted as corollary to two specific questions which you have refused to answer. Please answer them directly, or I am finished with this discussion, since you refuse to discuss this issue in an intellectually-honest manner.

Question 1: If your understanding of these issues reflects reality, why do professionals (Animal Control officers, Police, Trainers, etc), the people who deal with dangerous dogs on a daily and ongoing basis, not adopt it? If your assertions are correct, why do those people most properly trained and equipped to adopt and implement them not do so?

Question 2: Do you have any personal experience handling large dogs? Do you have any personal experience with hunting, working, or attack/security dogs?
Question 2a: If not, what is the source of your information regarding dog behavior and strength? If you do not have personal experience, please provide some relevant sources supporting your position.

Strange Famous

1 - because they dont want to kill the dogs, by definition of their jobs they are not supposed to or allowed to use maximum violence against the beats

2 - not especially
2a - common sense and the observation of reality. I dont need to be an astronaut to know that the moon goes round the earth. I dont need to be a dog handler to know that a 200 lbs human being is stronger than a 100 lbs dog.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

Final attempt. For clarification:

Question 1; Restated: If, as you contend, humans are so vastly superior in every way to dogs, why is it not equally simple to capture them? If your understanding is correct, why does it not render the capture of such an animal a simple matter? You contend that dogs are by nature cowardly and subservient; why does this not make their capture easy? You contend that humans are so vastly superior that killing a dog built and bred for combat is a simple matter easily attempted even by a person who admits to having no experience with such. Why is capturing them not an equally negligible proposition? And if -anyone- could/should be trained to exploit such disparities, it would be the professionals: why then do they not bear out your positions?

Yes or no? I'll take this as a "no."

However, you refuse to listen when an actual dog handler, a Military Policeman with extensive experience working with these animals, tells you that a 100lb dog is stronger than a 300lb man. He has experience working with these animals in a professional capacity; you have no personal or professional experience in this regard (per above). This refusal calls your common sense and observational abilities seriously into question. This suggests rather strongly that the reason the pros haven't adopted your understanding is that your understanding is nonsense.

Now, please provide some sources for your assertions that don't revolve around insisting that we place your unsupported layman's opinion over the supported opinion of a professional.

Walt

You keep making reference to your 300 lbs as if sheer mass is somehow the determining factor. This is what 75 lbs of functional muscle looks like:



This is what 300 lbs of Strange Famous looks like:




And a bag of Doritos, apparently: ----------------------------------------------------------------

Video of what SF armed with a stout wooden pole may look like:

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Strange Famous

If the best you can do in countering my arguments is making fun of my weight, I think its a pretty good sign youve already lost the argument.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Walt

You, staying true to form, made an outlandish claim that was no doubt formed from playing Call of Duty and reading your mail-order super secret SAS hand-to-hand fighting manual. When the error of your statement was pointed out, you chose to ignore the experienced professionals and continued to spew nonsensical macho bullshit (again, staying true to form). You habitually speak with authority on things you know nothing about. While that may impress the 12 year old neighborhood kids, it doesn't fly here. There was never any argument to lose.

Your considerable weight and general level of physical fitness became fair game when you made repeated references to them in an attempt to support your "argument" and chest thumping. While you may think that sheer mass is somehow going to win the day, my professional opinion as a military working dog handler is that your obesity and general lack of aerobic/anaerobic fitness might not help as much as you seem to think they would.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Strange Famous

And a video of a camp fat man playing at being a star wars character is supposed to illustrate your point is it?

I think the opinion of anyone who see's your comment is that is cheap, pointless, nasty, and the fallback of someone who has nothing sensible or rational to add.

The fact I couldnt run a mile in under 8 minutes (which is what the thread you quote was about) might make me unfit, and I could hardly deny I am fat - but I would judge I have an at least average ability to fight.

In fact in several posts I stated quite clearly I did not claim to be especially strong or skilled - that I was judging myself and my abilities in line with an average man.

You claim that your experience in working with dogs gives your words more gravitas than mine - which in itself strikes me as quite arrogant. But its a shame that with all the knowledge you apparently have on the subject you can do no better than childish insults such as those above.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas