ChrisJericho

Saw this story on the local news, it doesn't specify where the dog was shot with the .45, but the shotgun definitely put an end to the conflict...


"SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) - Spokane County sheriff's deputies used a stun gun on an attacking pit bull dog. It didn't stop, so they shot it with a .45-caliber handgun, and it still kept coming. They finally killed it with a blast from a 12-gauge shotgun.

The sheriff's office says the dog was killed early Wednesday as deputies responded to a domestic violence incident at a home.

Deputies arrested a 32-year-old man who had been drinking and threatened his family. Two daughters, ages 2 and 3, who were inside the house were unharmed and slept through the dog's shooting."

Spokane deputies kill relentless pit bull | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

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rahl

I'm not suprised it wasn't taken down with just a .45. Animals(pitt bulls especially) react very strongly when they are pumped full of adrenaline. If you've ever hunted before you may know what I'm talking about. I've seen animals whose hearts and or lungs have been completely disintegrated yet the animal will run several hundred yards full speed ahead just from the adrenaline in it's system.

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Fire

had a buddy who's drunk, cracked up neighbors decided it would be funny to sick their pit bulls (2) on him when he returned home from work- a large maglight effectively killed the first with about three swings, but the light now has a bit if a bend to it (still works) the second took two shots from a .45 - The dogs had both been de-barked, and he was taking tools out of the back of his truck (camper shell) so the first warning he had was the clicking noise of the dogs nails on the concrete of his driveway- however, this was why he had the maglight in hand, which he credited with himself not suffering injury.... police were called, and the neighbors were cited for some misdemeanor.... 2 weeks later they got raided for the whole crack dealing thing....... friend said he was not sorry to see them go... Incidentally, he has no problem with pit bulls, but rather blames the owners for making them into angry little biting machines...... ( should be noted that the little is in comparison to the rather massive dogs this guy tends to favor )

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Zeraph

I just wanted to say, humans can do the same thing. It's a psychological thing to fall over when we get shot. Which is why drugs can affect such; its not that animals have a better adrenaline system. (I'm pretty sure.) As with anything unless youre taking out a major portion of the CNS (central nervous system) the human or animal will be able to act until enough blood flow or oxygen is depleted from the brain. Even with a major wound that can take up to a minute.

raptor9k

Doesn't surprise me. I've seen deer run 100+ yards with their lungs hanging outside their body.

Willravel

highthief

Heard the same thing happen with a Rottweiler a few years back. The bullet - a 9mm - bounced off the dogs head! Again, a shotgun came to the rescue.

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Strange Famous

The best way to kill a pitbull (or any viscious dog apparently) is to get behind it and rip its two back legs apart as hard as you can.

Ive never tried it myself, biggest thing Ive ever killed is a bunny rabbit (that was all fucked up and myxy...I killed it to put it out its pain)

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Walt

Attempting to jerk the dog off while singing "Relax" by Frankie Goes to Hollywood would probably be more effective than that.

Out of curiosity, where do you get your information/training concerning subjects such as these?

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P-Naughty

Notice how the report doesn't say where the dog was hit with the round from the .45? Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

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Plan9

My god... my spleen. Oh, the pain.

Strange Famous

My dad told me. Like I said, I never tried it myself - but its supposed to break its back. You are also supposed to be able to rips its jaws right apart - but I figured the dog might bite your fingers while trying that. Ive heard that some breeds of dogs have very thick skulls, so clubbing them over the head might not be effective. I guess if the dog is right in front of you poking him in the eyes would also work pretty well.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

Your dad's an idiot. That or he's trying to get you killed or castrated, take your pick.

1: You don't break an animal's back by making it do a split: splits affect the hips. Totally different part of the body, dontcha know.
2: If you -seriously- think that an aggressive dog is going to let you get your hands on it's hind legs, you've got another thing coming. That dog is vastly faster, stronger, and more determined than you can imagine, and if it's pissed it's meaner than shit. Try that move and say goodbye to your ballocks. Have you ever seen how quickly and flexibly dogs move in a fight?

Seriously, what made you think this was even vaguely a workable idea?

You do realize, don't you, that even an ordinary bird-dog can generate several hundred pounds of bite force? And that a pittbull or anything even remotely similar can top out at nearly a THOUSAND pounds? So unless you're capable of curling 500+lbs per hand, in -opposite- directions, while those 500lbs are pressing down on sharpened plates of tooth enamel, it a'int gonna happen. For a quick visualization imagine trying to hold up a 500lb weight, with one hand, and the weight has the blade from a pair of pinking shears attached to the underside.

Assuming the dog doesn't just snap your fingers right off (you -have- seen how fast dogs can snap, right? Or have they banned dogs in England too, along with guns and pointy knives?) this is probably the most sensible idea you've ever posited in Tilted Weaponry. Congratulations.

Strange Famous

Pitbulls are illegal in the UK yes, along with Rotweilers and other dogs banned by the Dangerous Dogs Act. But some people still have them.

At the end of the day, a fully grown man is bigger, heavier, stronger than any dog... as well as far more agile and skilled in combat. Dogs are cowardly predators that normally only will attack a grown man when his back is turned. I am not saying that I would enjoy fighting a pitbull, or that it might not wound me - but if it came to it - it is far far more likely that the dog would die rather than me.

Oh, and if someone twice my weight violently forced me to do the splits, I dont doubt I'd be laid up and not feel like fighting anyone anymore.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

rahl

QFT!

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The_Dunedan

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

I take it all back. Please, PLEASE try this on a dog. PLEASE try to fight a pittbull, a Staffordshire Terrier, or an Akita with this mindset.

A dog can run at 40+ miles per hour. Can you? Can you even do 10mph? Bear in mind that Usain Bolt made it to what, 15-17mph in the Olympics?
A dog can bite at 400-1,000lbs/inch. Can you even -lift- 400lbs?
A dog can turn inside his own body length and lick his own asshole. Can you?

Think about that, then think about this. It takes approx 5lbs/inch of force to disrupt soft tissue, and about twice that to break bone. And you expect us, or anyone else, to believe that you can outrun an animal that's faster than an Olympic sprinter, out-turn an animal that can suck his own dick while walking around in a circle, out-tough an animal bred for killing lions, bears, wild boars, or Aurochs, -AND- win!? When this animal is more than capable, physically, of running you down like a rabbit and taking your hand off at the wrist? Have you SEEN what packs of wolves and wild dogs can do? Have you seen what ordinary house-dogs do to people every single year?

What's your plan; bleed on the thing, like the Black Knight? Sit on its' head and wait for morning, like the Leopard and Ethiopian?

Hey Walt; who's your money on? Schultz (125lb former Polizei K9) or our friend here?

rahl

Short of being bitten in the throat(jugular sp?) if a dog has you by the forearm, any average sized male will be able to fight it off. I don't think he ever said anything about outrunning the animal, simply fighting it off. I don't know about you, but I can easily lift an 80lb dog and smash it to the ground. So unless it has me by the throat, I am going to win. If it is a police dog I would be charged with feloneous assault, but I'm walking away from the fight...not the dog.

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The_Dunedan

No, he said he would -kill- it, which is a simply ludicrous claim. SF's also claimed in the past that a 5.56mm full-auto rifle was the perfect thing to carry for bears, that the Israeli army issues weapons they don't even inventory, and that female MMA fighters are somehow being "forced" to compete.

And no, unless you can wrench your arm loose in the doing, being able to lift an 80lb dog is not relevant. Remember; that animal is biting hard enough to crush bone and shred soft tissues. As you're lifting it (with your sliced-up arm) it's pulling, squirming and wrenching its' head from side to side with all of its' -very- considerable strength. It's a'int dead-weight, it's -fighting- weight. It's kicking, biting, tearing at you. If you use a two-handed grip it's liable to go after the other hand as well, and if you hug it close to get leverage or control you've just brought your eyes, throat, jugular and carotids within striking range. That's not even counting the pain and loss of blood involved when an 80-120lb carnivore starts knawing on your forearm. Tendons, muscles, blood...these things are important, and a dog's jaws make very short work thereof.

Sorry, no. If what you suggest were true, a lot more people would escape Police K-9s and a lot fewer people would be mauled/killed in dog attacks every year.

Put another way, in reference to the OP: if a .45 pistol round -and- a stungun failed to stop this animal, what makes you think your unarmed self has a chance? This critter took a 12-bore to stop, mate. Your bodyslam would just make it angrier.

ring

This thread needs some videos of dog attacks.

I used to have some, but right now I am surfing the web without virus protection.

Attack dogs can easily kill a person who far outweighs them.
Their strength & agility, pound for pound against a human, is well documented.

The neck is not the only place a person can bleed out from.
One good chomp to your femoral or brachial artery, is enough.

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, everything I've heard/read about aggressive dogs generally state a lot of information about avoidance/evasion. I think it's generally considered a dire situation if it comes down to a melee against a dog of generally any large breed. However, when you look at the security class of dogs, no matter what, it ain't going to be pretty.

But a pitbull?

Just...no.

Oh, and there is one aspect of dogs that also differs from humans quite a bit that hasn't been mentioned yet: prey drive.

When you set off a dog's prey drive, it can be difficult to "talk them down," especially if you're the target.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Plan9

I find the Lockheed / Loral Predator system to be an effective weapon against dogs of all sizes.

It's inexpensive, easy to use, lightweight, compact, and features a high capacity magazine.

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PonyPotato

The veterinary clinic I worked at briefly had a pit bull come in that had been shot in the head by a US Marshal. While it took the dog down, it did not kill it. I believe the animal was euthanized later by the vet because the owners did not authorize any surgery in time to save the dog.

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The_Dunedan

The scary part, PP, is that what you describe is actually pretty common, especially with fighting/hunting dogs like Pitbulls, Staffordshire Terriers, Catahoulas, Presa Canarios, etc. Their skulls are very thick with sloping foreheads; the forehead of a Pitbull looks like the glacis plate of a tank, and works about the same way. I've had reports from my Law Enforcement clients of everything up to and including heavy pistol rounds (.460 Rowland, .45 Super, etc) skipping off the foreheads of these animals: the impact will frequently stun them, but the actual -damage- won't be anything more than a nasty gash. One unconfirmed report from a Co. Sherriff's Deputy has such a skip-off taking place with a .44 Special.

PonyPotato

In this case, the bullet did enter the skull and caused some major damage, but it was possible the dog could have recovered with immediate surgery and a lot of physical therapy. Most dogs aren't worth that to their owners, though, with their short lifespans.

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

The_Dunedan

Wow. It penetrated the brain-case?! DAMN.

OK folks, dogs are even tougher than -I- though! Wow.

Plan9

Can we get this thread into the Hall of Fame? It's got it all... guns, science, comedy, and the kind of angry persistence seen only in an enraged dog.

That and, thanks to this thread, this song totally has a whole new significance:

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Strange Famous

I think I have already stated that these dogs have very thick skulls, which is why a handgun might not penetrate if it was shot at the top of the head. If the dog was shot in the heart or throat it would certainly die instantly, but when it is attacking someone it is probably not easy to get a clean shot.

If the dog came at me most likely in a fight it would bite my forearm. Certainly it would be able to make my arm bleed and it would hurt - but its not like it has the strength to actually bite my arm of. While I forced it down with MY 300 lbs of weight against its 120 lbs, I would have a free hand to strike it in the eye or throat or ribs, to choke it, to hoist it up and drive it repeatedly into the floor or a wall, etc etc

A dog can only hurt you with its teeth, a human has multiple striking options, and is twice as big and twice as strong and twice as heavy in some cases (certainly in my case).

Like I said, I wouldnt fight a pitbull for fun, and I am sure it would hurt, but unless it can get at my throat or face, or I just lie there and let it eat me... it is not going to be able to strike a killing blow. If I tried to club him on the top of the head I might not do much but hurt and anger him... but I have the human intelligence to strike right into the throat, or throttle it, or gouge his eyes, or drive his face into the floor and break his teeth, or whatever else - which is another difference between a dog and a man.

If you look up stories of fatal dog attacks, you see the victims are nearly always children.

Dogs dont have the courage to attack adult humans unless it is a cowardly bite in the arse or back, or they are wild and desperate. They dont have the strength to kill adults in any normal circumstances

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

telekinetic

What makes you think you can keep a 120lbs pitbull from biting your face? Something like 77% of all dog bite injuries requiring medical attention are facial.

You are right in that, statistically it is the very young and very old that get killed by dogs. However, every year, there are a handful of healthy 20-50 year olds that also get killed by dogs. Most of these, though, is by multiple dogs, as they are pack hunting animals, and I don't even think YOU would make an argument that you could take out a pair of pitbulls.

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twisted no more

The_Dunedan

That's then point we're making: YES IT DOES. Your arm is composed of muscle, tendons, and bone. Muscle and tendon can be cut/disrupted with as little as 5 (five) pounds per square inch of bite force. Bone crushes at 9 (nine) pounds per square inch. Dogs bite with HUNDREDS OF POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH. Notice the difference: at less than TEN pounds per square inch the animal can break bone. What do you think FIVE HUNDRED POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH is going to do?

So yes, the wrong dog can take your arm off. The wrong dog can take your -leg- off at the hip.

While it's trying to remove your other arm. Right.

Which are very sharp, very strong, and driven by a bite force of several HUNDRED pounds per square inch.

None of which work very well against a pissed-off large dog.

HAH! You're funny.

You -do- realise, don't you, that you can exanguinate (bleed to death) in less than 90 seconds from a cut/punctured femoral artery, right? That's the big one in your thigh. The main pipes on your arms might let you last as long as three minutes. Ask one of our combat vets here (got plenty) how long it takes somebody to bleed out with a shredded wrist.

Intelligence, maybe. You do not have the strength to strangle a pissed-off Pitbull. Nevermind the fact that, as you're strangling it, it's still chewing on you.

Good thing all the Police Departments went to Siamese Attack Cats, then, isn't it?

Pure, unmitigated, unmistakable nonsense. Dogs kill adults all the time, several dozen times per year in the US.

Have you ever had a large dog, SF? Have you ever even playfully wrestled with one? Because you're showing about as much knowledge about dogs as you've shown in the past about guns, bears, and women.

Plan9

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Borla

That's the thing, it WOULD be able to get at your throat and/or face in barely the time it'd take you to blink an eye.

No offense, but your entire line of reasoning in this thread (if you are actually serious and not just being sarcastic for the fun of arguing) is rediculous and shows a huge lack of real knowledge or interaction with larger aggressive breeds of dogs.

The best thing pit bulls have going for them is that they are actually very rarely human aggressive. Their true instinct is to be animal aggressive.

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Shadowex3

Anyone else starting to think SF might have one of those skulls too?

Just remember something else: The locking-jaws thing is a myth. There's no biological means for that to occur except sheer determination, and even then it's more likely that they would bite, thrash, and then rebite. Your arm's going to be shredded to ribbons inside of 20 seconds.

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LordEden

Yeah, troll'd. My bad.

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The_Jazz

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Strange Famous

1 - I cant run at 40 MPH. Thats fine for me. I dont think I can outrun a dog, and if he runs off I wont chase him, It doesnt matter if he survives as long as he leaves me alone - Ive no desire to "finish him"

2 - Lifting at bite pressure are rather different things. I have no idea if I can lift 400 lbs, but I probably could with my whole body I guess. But a dog weighs 120 lbs, and I am pretty sure I can lift 120 lbs. I weigh 300 lbs, I am pretty sure a dog cant lift me. So in fact while I am strong enough to man handle a dog, to shove it about, to pick it up over my head and throw it into a wall,etc The dog can bite me and thats the only offensive weapon he has.

3 - No, I cant lick my own arse. Nor do I have any wish to. If the essence of the dogs tactical strength is some genetic memory of hunting a big breed of cow thats been extinct 4000 years, and the ability to lick its own arse - compare that the human beings capacity for violence and destruction.

Mankind who can make guns, missiles, tanks, etc vs a dog who is by nature subserviant, who's only "fighting intelligence" is based on rudimentary training to bite people, or a genetic memory of pack hunting.

__

The stuff about bite pressure is also misleading, The dog wouldnt be biting me on a 1 square inch point. He would be biting on my entire arm - which would likely be being rammed into his throat at the time. Yes he could break my skin, bruise me - but I think it is very unlikely he has the strength to bite through my arm or break a bone. It would take him 3 hours to chew one of the bones in my arm in half

_

I really dont get how any can argue that if two creatures fight - it is likely that the smaller, weaker, less intelligent, less aggressive creature will win. A pack of dogs might take down a man if they are desperate and starving. A single dog has very little chance.

And on top of everything else, consider my ability to use weapons which the dog does not have.

Whether its the car keys jammed into the eyeball, a club, a knife, a belt made into a makeshift noose, a sharp stone - there are 1000's of potential weapons I could make use of in a real environment.

In fact - I would say that my superiority (and I am an average man, heavier than most, but not especially strong or skilled in combat) that it is unlikely that I would even need to kill the dog. I would probably only need to administer a sound thrashing and the dog would retreat.

In the scenario someone mentioned of two pitbulls attacking it might be more dangerous, and it probably would be necessary to kill at least one dog - because if you allowed them to gang up on you would would be at risk.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

I think the last thing you'd be able to do to an attacking dog is pick it up over your head. We're talking about an aggressive animal with the musculature to run 40 mph and the flexibility to lick its own ass after all.

I think the most you'd be able to do is fend it off until it decides it's not going to win. At best, in most situations, this might include punching and kicking and hoping you won't need too many stitches when you're done. In the worst-case scenario, stitches would be a blessing.

Sometimes, intelligence only gets you so far in the animal world.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ring

Dear Strange,

Where did you learn that dogs, 'by nature' are subserviant?
Dogs by nature are predators. (and scavengers)

Domesticated dogs are not that far removed from their 'nature.'

Try fighting an agile venomous snake, and see who wins.

Size is not on your side this time, Strange. Not to mention speed/reaction time
& agility.

Please do some reading. Even a small dog can cause serious injuries. Sheesh this is frustrating.

Shadowex3

look if he's so convinced he can take down a dog I say we let him try. It's a win-win situation.

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Strange Famous

A "win win situation" is a pretty funny way to look at it

Why would you see it as a "win" for some dumb animal to be beaten and maybe killed? I wouldnt fight a dog unless it was in defence of myself or another human. And there is nothing special about me, I couldnt handle a pitbull any different to an average grown man who is relatively strong and fit.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

inBOIL

So how does the dog's jaw (which is made of bone) withstand those hundreds of pounds of pressure it's exerting? How do the dog's teeth withstand over two orders of magnitude more pressure than bone? Not that I agree with SF's assessment, but I think your numbers are a bit exaggerated.

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