JStrider

I've been running with a running club and pretty often we run through very shady parts of town. I'm looking for a small pistol to carry while running. I usually wear shorts and tshirt.

the biggest thing that concerns me is that we do occasionally swim or wade across rivers, bayous, etc... i'll be able to clean it that evening, or the next day at the latest. but it needs to still be able to function after a swim.

so gun experts, any suggestions?

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-=JStrider=-

~Clatto Verata Nicto

Plan9

Well...

Inside the Waistband holsters (IWBs) are okay for running but the require a stable platform (belt) and I hate running with a belt. Fannypacks are floppy, obvious, and a major fashion faux pas. I've heard of some guys run with CCW pieces in their hand, disguised in some kind of Walkman or phone case (bad idea). Fuck an ankle holster. I think the best option for this type of activity is a holster T-shirt.

Revolvers are extremely reliable in murky conditions and easy to clean. A S&W 37 Airweight J-frame in .38 Special with Federal HydraShoks is my personal choice for hot-hot bipedal adventure action. 5.11 T-shirt holster I did a review on a while back has proven to be extremely useful for running as long as it isn't overwhelmingly hot outside (thing is a sweater on your pits). You can carry the gun under your left arm and a speedstrip or two and a light under your right. 15 shots and it doesn't bounce. I'm thinking about getting my two hemmed above the navel (fabulous, I know) because it always seems to ride up to that level anyway when running. I always wear an overshirt, usually a baggy long-sleeve Soffe sweat-wicking shirt, over the holster shirt.

Granted, any modern defensive firearm should hold up fine to being dunked provided your holster prevents it from getting mud/rock/a delicious bass in the bangtube. Some members may suggest a mini-Glock or a Keltec PF9 or the like. I'd avoid something heavy or expensive. You don't need a full house sidearm with three spare mags, a mounted gun light, etc... you just a Bitch Be Cool piece. I'd get a used snubnose and a holster T-shirt.

The guy at SurvivalSheath.com is an absentminded moron, but I like his products. He's got some custom Kydex chest rigs designed for runners.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

JStrider

I could probably do a lightweight nylon belt... the shorts I wear have belt loops.

a friend was suggesting a keltec p32 or P3AT with a belt clip just clipped in the pants... would probably conceal pretty well...but I'm not sure I'd be comfy with no safety and not having the trigger covered.

just how warm does that shirt get? it gets hot and really humid here in houston... I could probably deal if its not too bad.

with a revolver, are the parts that rotate the cylinder likely to gum up after a submersion? and are they easy to get to to clean? I dont have much experience with revolvers...

__________________
-=JStrider=-

~Clatto Verata Nicto

Ilow

As much as i love guns and support people's 2nd amendment rights and rights to defend themselves, I feel compelled to ask why it wouldn't be a simpler and more prudent choice to simply avoid running in the "shady" parts of town. It's one thing to be prepared if trouble finds you, it's another to court trouble by making dangerous choices.

That being said, the revolver idea isn't a bad one, and those airweights are really nice, and there are also some nice alloy frames (scandium or whatever) out there too. I wouldn't think that a moderately expensive gun like a Springfield XD subcompact 9mm or a Glock should be too prohibitively pricey or heavy (probably both in the $500s). If I was going with a Glock, might as well get the 36, a slimlline subcompact .45, only drawback is the limited number of rounds, but still more than a revolver and with that bullet you should only need one. Couldn't argue with the durability when submerged etc. FWIW I don't think that I'd really recommend a .380 caliber gun even though there are tons of really compact ones out there. I just don't trust the stopping power, but then again it is quite a bit better than nothing.

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"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

Willravel

Are you carrying money or something?

Plan9

Revolvers are incredibly easy to clear of gunk. You can open the cylinder on a revolver and clear it in a hot second.

...

I would refrain from the P32. I own one, but I wouldn't ever use it as a primary after spending time with it on the range.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

samcol

I'm a motorcycle rider that carries a snub nose revolver. There's been several times where I've got absolutely poured on and everything on me was soaked (including gun). I just unloaded the gun and wiped it down with CLP and it shot fine every time at the range.

I think your ideal choice would be a kel-tec p32. It's slimmer and the belt clip is perfect for jogging. The only additional thing I would do after getting it wet would be to break down the magazine and make sure all the water is out of it.

The limiting factor is the ammo with any choice you make when it comes to getting a gun wet.

When it comes to caliber, does it really matter if you're packing a .22 lr pistol or a .45? Either way it presents a huge threat if you happen to pull it.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Plan9

This from the guy that supposedly got shot in the leg by a stray 9mm. You should know better, dude.

Oh really? Sure it matters. How about common sense and confidence in your equipment? Hell, I could pull a fucking Airsoft gun if all I wanted to do is feel like a badass in a sticky situation. But mature armed citizens don't "plasti-bluff", they only pull guns when absolutely necessary: if there is actually a chance they will have to shoot someone to defend themselves. Brandishing is not allowed. It's not only legally shaky, it's stupid if the guy you're attempting to scare calls your bluff. Turns out life isn't an action movie where I can ward off evildoers by showing them the ends of my twin Colt SAAs.

So... does the gun matter? Hell yes. The gun matters if I want to actually shoot, hit, and neutralize an attacker. I want a gun that I feel confident I can do that with under pressure. A threat (any gun) is not the answer anymore than a dinky little Derringer (too little gun) or a S&W 500 (too much gun).

Practicality to the application is king here.

...

OP: You need something that is lightweight, fills your hand, and has as few parts to worry about as possible. A revolver or plastic auto fits the bill.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

samcol

I guess my point is what is a realistic caliber while jogging? If you can carry a .22 lr 100% of time comfortably or a larger caliber only a fraction of that time, then what is the better choice?

Getting hit with a smaller caliber round is still going to ruin someone's day, and if it's easier to carry then why not?

I don't think anyone is suggesting a derringer, however it's better than nothing. There is too much debate about calibers imo. Take the biggest round you can comfortably shoot and carry AND have on your person the most often. If it's too uncomfortable to carry for what you're doing then what's the point?

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Plan9

I'm not debating calibers, I'm suggesting that the size of the weapon is important and that he shouldn't carry a threat, he should carry a firearm that he intends on shooting and hitting his attacker with should the need arise. If he wants to carry a Walther P22 with Triton/CCI Quikshoks, go for it.

I could live with that.

...

The priorities are like this...

4: Carry a gun you can shoot with that will neutralize an attacker.
3: Carry a gun that will neutralize an attacker.
2: Carry a gun you can shoot.
1: Carry a gun.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

Being armed wouldn't have prevented that.

Plan9

Aaah, I was hinting at how random the old Violent World is...

He doesn't have to look like he's carrying money to be a target.

Women get attacked because they have tits 'n ass.

Men get attacked because they simply made eye contact.

Potential attackers don't need a whole lotta college-level motivation.

To ask a man why he might need a gun is to ask an engineer why the bridge needs to support so much more weight than it'll ever rationally load:

Just in case.

/soapbox

...

Who's in charge of your personal safety?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

Most instances of crime involve rational actors. Jstrider doesn't have a nice pair of breasts (no offense), so I figured it'd likely be financial. I don't carry money when I run because the wallet bounces around in my running shorts, and I was wondering if JS did, which would explain why he felt he needed protection.

Plan9

Maybe they take plastic.

Oh, man... crime theories. My favorite. Don't get me started. I'll General Strain and Social Bond your ear off. Cognitive landscapes'd!

...

J-Strider could purchase a Taser and use that. Or OC Pepperspray. But us cromags like to beat off to gun fantasies here.

*fap* *fap* *fap*

...

As I get older, I'm developing a certain distaste for concealed carry and personal defense in general. It isn't that I would have any issues with using it, but that I live in a violent country where people go through their entire lives thinking someone else will save them when they really need it.

It's like the quote Baraka used to have in his sig: Mankind cannot bear too much reality.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

kinsaj

Do we really have to turn every gun post into a willravel / crompsin (now plan9) pissing match? Will, if you want to argue that kinda stuff take it to politics. The guy is looking for advice on what to carry not where to run and if he should carry. Plan9, I respect that you defend our rights and such but if nobody bothered to respond to him he might just shut up on his own.

<back to lurking>

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boom

Plan9

But I like our discourse. Feel free to contribute. The only real crime on a mature forum like TFP is to say nothing at all.

...

The Weaponry area at TFP is the one place I actually get to open my mouth and not be an idiot 98% of the time. I value any company.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

JStrider

I do usually carry 10-20 bucks, but Its not about feeling that I'm a target any more then any other white guy running in the ghetto... I run barefoot, I dont wear nice running clothes... if anything I'm probably less of a target then other runners in the group.

its more wanting to be prepared just in case.


looking and reading, I think I'm liking the snubnose revolver suggestion, need to find a friend/gunstore that has some I can checkout.

any comments on the exposed/shrouded/enclosed hammer options?

__________________
-=JStrider=-

~Clatto Verata Nicto

Slims

FWIW, I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT often while running by myself. I keep it in a little zip-up bag and hold it in my hand. It is not particularly sneaky, but I really don't care whether someone makes me.

There are other options. For instance, I can carry the pistol in a clip-on IWB holster...the draw-string on my running shorts is more than adequate to support it due to it's extremely small size. However, the rubbing of the pistol bouncing up and down chafes.


As for what to carry: It is largely personal preference. But I suggest you at least consider this line of pistols: Kel-Tec makes the P3AT which is a very inexpensive, small, lightweight pistol which is chambered for .380 giving it a reasonable amount of ass should you need to use it. The better (and more expensive) option is a Ruger LCP, which is basically the Kel-Tec design supped up a little bit and made a bit slicker/more reliable.


Any pistol can handle the water. When you get home just rinse it off with tap-water to get rid of any dirt, pat it dry, and spray a little CLP on it. Nothing else is necessary.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Willravel

Not being experienced, I'd imagine the issue would be more one of how to carry the gun, less than which gun. My thought was, if you've got some money on you it might give you an indication as to how to carry the weapon. Maybe you've got it clipped to your belt? Clearly it's not in a sock. Do you have a fanny pack? Is it in you ipod strap?

Cops have them well situated on the belt, and some of them run, but personally I'd probably want it in a place where it's not jumping all over creation. Maybe a snug shoulder holster? Thigh?

Plan9

I'd imagine running barefoot in an urban area is more dangerous than those that would accost you. Gun? Hell, you should CCW some tetanus shots.

Heh... blue nylon with white text embroidered on one side? I'd never thought about actually carrying mine in that thing. I'll hafta reexamine it.

I always prefer the standard exposed hammer because I like the ability to go to single action on a revolver. I have success with it.

Avoid shrouded hammers, they're awkward and fill a niche that isn't necessary now that hammerless guns are available.

Enclosed hammers are really nice if you like the DAO pull. S&W hammerless guns are the snub nose gold standard.

Taurus makes a line of inexpensive snubnoses nearly identical to the S&W models. Taurus guns are less expensive.

This may be a solution:

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

remy1492

some dudes here wear the kel-tecs on a neck tie, doesnt it have a small lanyard hole? youd never notice it there. not sure about sweat tho.

Plan9

The Kel-Tec doesn't have a lanyard hole, but the rear pin where you attach the belt clip can be exchanged for weird wire contraption-equipped pin with a lanyard. It's kinda crappy, IMO. You may be better off buying a second belt clip and WECSOGin' it into a lanyard loop or using a roll pin and some 550 cut to make a loop to attach to a neck chain. The issue with a neck chain, of course, is how do you draw? Just tear it off and shoot? Very Die Hard.

Or getting something like this... even though having a muzzle pointing at my chin is way scary:



I'm surprised at how many people suggest the Kel-Tec given other, more potent options.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

telekinetic

Jstrider, you don't see any issues with combining guns and alcohol? I always segregate the two.

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twisted no more

Plan9

Oh snap, good call. This is for the hash runs? That's a no-go. You can't concealed carry and drink, bro. Some states are all zero tolerance about it.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

JStrider

well we typically don't drink before and only sometimes during the run... and if I'm carrying on that particular run, I would abstain. Then once we are at the end I can put the gun in the car and have a couple drinks after disarming.

__________________
-=JStrider=-

~Clatto Verata Nicto

corporate.Chris

I work in construction, and due to the incredibly hot weather and kind of work I am doing I no longer have all the concealing options that I did in the colder weather(such as wearing a sweatshirt, or thicker clothing). As a result of this I find myself unarmed and vulnerable in places where I shouldn't be. I also find this to be the situation .

Zooksport2

Think of the health advantages of simply running for your life

And a pistol, is just gonna slow ya down

.

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Fire

I have has several friends that tried kel tec small pistols - some like em, some hate em, seems like a brand that if you got a good one, then your set, if not its a jam o matic- myself, I like the simple reliability of a smith and wesson j-frame, with nicer than it came with rubber grips- it shoots well and in this era of ammo shortage I can get the ammo...... now a days the s+w comes in stainless, which you would want for the whole water and rain issues..... go to a gun forum and read up on how to check over a revolver before you buy, and for fucks sake, never "bogart" the thing ( IE DO NOT flip the cylinder shut with a flick of the wrist) that shit will fuck the revolvers crane/yoke up in short order and leave it spitting lead into your hands or worse..... you might look into some of the man purse thingies for easier ccw that is not a fanny pack- maxpidetion makes some interesting products for that, albeit pricey....... finally, why taurus is cheaper than s+w, they seem to have a lot of quality issues, so definately check one out before hand, apparently their customer service really sucks out loud,,,, also rossi and charter arms get mixed reviews, though there is a rossi in my household that has never had a single problem in many years, which is the wife's personal weapon........

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

Force 10

Kahr makes American pistols specifically designed for conceal. They're very small and come in larger calibers, too.

You can get into a PM9 or PM40 coupled with a concealment t-shirt. The Kahr pistols are better than the the Ruger LCP or other small conceal pistols in that they are rated for +P ammunition. The little .380's like the LCP are pretty damn small calibers and since they are not rated for the good ammunition (Cor-Bon DPX, etc.) are a less than attractive. The PM9 and PM40 are both the same frame size so it then comes down to...do you want more holes or bigger holes. 9mm or.40.

The pistol shown in this shirt is much bigger than the PM9 or PM40.

I'm in the business. I sell firearms five days a week (I'm not trying to sell you anything). I'm a defensive firearms instructor, a CHL instructor and I carry full time. I can send you real pictures of different options if something sparks interest.

On a side note - When least expected, you're elected. This bull shit about not running in the 'shady' part of town or 'are you carrying money or something' is a farce. No one ever expects to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just ask the any number of students at any number of schools ('safe zones,' no less) if they felt they were attending an unsafe school. Or how about the boys at the army base? Think they felt unsafe? Let the critics stick their heads in the sand all they want. Never, however, allow them to tell you when you can protect your self. NEVER! When they're getting their face kicked in, you can jog right on by, confidently, with your pistol strapped to your torso. It's your job to protect yourself and your family. Do it.

longbough

Underarmor makes a very nice holster/shirt.
Plan9 did a nice writeup : http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...view-pics.html

I own one and it's very comfortable. I can keep my HK P7M8 or even a Commander-sized 1911 tucked away nicely with surprising concealability.

If you're jogging I'd feel safer with my weapon on my torso rather than in my shorts. The Underarmor shirt keeps your weapon secure to your upper body.

Highly recommended.

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"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

geeza

Yep, I reckon run faster/somewhere else is your best bet.

The alternative seems to be a minefield of issues.

Plus criminals are inherently lazy, they won't run after you, or run to intercept you. That's why there's less crime at the top of hills than the bottom of them: laziness!

They'd have to be sitting there waiting for "jogger guy and his pals" on their route. And while they might be lazy, they aren't all stupid, so they'll know you don't have much worth robbing.

Also have you ever seen how shit at shooting most people are? Hilarious! Most of em, gang bangers included, can't hit a (stationary) barn door with a banjo. Always makes me chuckle at the range. :-)


Don't get me wrong, I couldn't be more pro- having the right tool for the job on hand, but practicality rules in my book; be smart, vary your route, the usual stuff.....

Plan9

According to FBI stats... turns out gang bangers can shoot better than most cops. And probably you.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

WinchesterAA

If you get the revolver, due to the gap between the cylinder and the barrel, if you were to submerge the firearm in water and pull it out, the water would immediately drain out and discharging the firearm at that point would not result in an exploded barrel due to barrel obstruction (water).

It will fire when dirty, wet, greasy, etc.

Revolvers have the balls to work in hell. Not many Autos these days can say the same thing. Don't buy a Rossi, or Charter Arms. I make a habit to avoid Taurus too, but that's mostly irrational.

I've heard tales of polymer framed revolvers, which I would imagine would be hard to notice in the pocket while running. (as in, your leg/nuts won't be smacked relentlessly by a heavy piece of metal, because it's a lightweight piece of plastic instead.)

On that note, I wear a 1911 in a Smart Carry, and occasionally run with it. No problems in that regard, and could recommend the same system to you. Smart Carry can be worn butt naked, or will successfully conceal a slim-line 1911 in a pair of comfortably fitting pants. (not excessively loose)

(or any other firearm)

Kel-Tec PF9s are pretty damn light weight, though the trigger is a royal piece of shit. The one I got for my girl has worked very well, though. So has the Kel-Tec p32.


@Geeza - Not everyone shooting at you is a cop or a gang member participating in "gang initiations" or whatever it is that gang members do
@Geeza again - Not every interested hostile party is going to run after you.. People have cars and other shit white people came up with.