runtuff

Any one have any experience using, owning, buying?? I'm looking at one for a Glock.

Slims

I have used them on my work-gun. If you have the option I am far more fond of any brand of tritium night sights.

Laser sights are excellent backups, especially in very small pistols where it is very difficult to acquire a sight picture. This is especially true if you have poor eyesight they can be invaluable as you can focus on a single plane.

However, they have a few drawbacks:

1. Shooting from an improper stance: People tend to develop very bad habits when using laser sights....they stop bringing their weapon up into a proper shooting position and adopt sloppy techniques. Shooters then keep those bad habits when they shoot during daytime conditions where a laser sight is useless. Also, shooters cannot shoot as fast when they are waiting to reacquire a laser dot which bounces all over the target following a shot, traditional techniques of reacquiring a flash sight picture...or no sight picture for double taps just don't carry over well to using a laser sight. If you notice the crimson trace commercials the person shooting (a professional shooter) is looking through his sights and the laser just happens to be on...he doesn't appear to be using it at all because it would only slow him down.

2. Searching: People often get in the habit of simply moving the red-dot onto the target vs. using the sights with the laser as a backup. The problem with this is that if the person doesn't have a wall or a surface behind the target where the laser dot will be easily visible you often won't know which direction to move in order to get on target and will 'search' around with your pistol until you can see the dot, wasting a lot of time. This is especially true in dim but not dark situations.

3. Dead Batteries: I have several times pulled my weapon out only to find the batteries were dead. I am not sure whether there was some sort of slow battery drain or whether I was somehow triggering the sight while my weapon was holstered, but the result was the same...the sight I expected to have wasn't working.

4. Fragility: I have had two different crimson trace grips on my work-gun and I broke both of them.

5. Lasers are a two-way beam of light: You become more visible and poor laser discipline (light discipline is something that has to be learned and practiced or you wills screw it up in an emergency) can telegraph your intentions and location to an intruder, allowing them to prepare and maneuver effectively against you.



My personal preference is for Novak Lo-Mount Night Sights. It is a matter of personal preference, but they have never let me down. They work for at least 12 years, are very fast, don't rely on batteries, don't 'wash out' if a flashlight is used or it is daylight. My shooting techniques remain exactly the same regardless of the light conditions (with the exception of a white light), they are very durable and IMHO the Novak's are a better sight even for daylight hours than the plastic thingy which comes stock on the Glock.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

therealcat

The word you're looking for is "sights." Trust me: I was an English major.

Laser sights can intimidate criminals, providing they're capable of a degree of rationality; they're not, however, a substitute for learning how to shoot accurately.

Here's a clue: most people in most self-defense situations don't have time to use sights. It's conceivable laser sights could help in low light confrontations and darkness, but that's only if there's time to use them.

My best recommendation: spend the money you were thinking about spending on laser sights on practice ammunition and range fees.

Slims

No, most people in self-defense situations have plenty of time to use sights (the rest of their lives in fact, if you want to use the cliche), but instead they choose to shoot blindly and waste a lot of time by missing...quickly. Just look at Police Officers who are, unfortunately better trained than your average civilian. Most police confrontations happen very close (less than 10 feet) yet the police officers only hit their intended targets about 1 out of every 5 shots fired. The rest of those rounds are wasted, time consuming, irresponsible rounds fired towards.....nobody knows but it usually isn't a safe backstop. If they panicked less, acquired a quick sight picture and obtained reliable center-mass hits they would shoot slower, but hit faster.

My point in my above post was that in a fast-breaking situation laser sights are not particularly fast...you have to 'search' for the dot rather than acquiring a fast, basic gun-target line before firing and continue to search for the sight after each shot. Having to 'see' the dot encourages you to stick your neck up and to stand more erect, looking at least several inches over the top of your weapon because the dot can easily be hidden if your hand/gun obstructs your view. If you don't have time to acquire a basic sight-alignment you certainly don't have time to go searching for a red dot and then 'dragging' it onto the target and then trying to hold it still while you manipulate the trigger.

Also, if the firearm to which the laser sight is attached isn't intimidating enough, a little red-dot is probably not going to scare the criminal either.


I don't want this to sound like a condemnation of laser sights....they have a niche which they fill very well, but IMHO they are a poor solution to a nonexistent problem in most cases.

Edit: I agree with TheRealCat's advice to spend the money at the range practicing...familiarity with your weapon is absolutely crucial. If you already shoot it frequently then you may be right to look at low-light enhancements. FWIW I took my wife to the range the other day because I was not confident she was still familiar with her defensive pistol. I loaded it, put it in the same condition she carries/maintains it and handed it to her. Sure enough she tried to shoot it without taking the safety off and then looked at it trying to figure out what was wrong. My lesson learned was that confidence won't put rounds on target, you have to train or all the gizmos in the world won't help you.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

It's my opinion that the money spent on a laser is money that should have been spent on training ammo and tritiums.

Handgun lasers are trinkets.

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"You should not drink... and bake."

runtuff

Hey thanks, for the info. Much to think about and investigate.

Slims

Cromp: Does the Ares fire from an open bolt? None of their literature says either way. It looks very interesting, provided it is open bolt and we can throw a muzzle break/compensator to get rid of what is probably a lot of muzzle rise.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

dissonance

The military has been using Crimson Trace laser grips on their M-9s. Provided you know how to shoot already, the laser can give you quite an advantage.

I've heard nothing but good about the company if you ever do have a problem.

Plan9

...and the military also uses shitty fragile aluminum GI mags with tilt-o-matic followers.

What does that tell you?

We can pay for gizmos, but we forget the basics.

We have Velcro on our uniforms. Don't laugh too hard.

...

Slims: Totally cross-threaded here. That's awesome.

Bolt? Honestly, I'm not sure. Judging from the disassembly pictures, I'd have to guess open bolt... it uses that fat proprietary AR15 many-lug but the mash-up looks way similar to the M249. I could be wrong and they could have doo-doo'd themselves with a closed bolt. Open bolt would be the only thing that makes sense on a full auto belt fed AR.

It sure is gnarly, though.

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Walt

They're used more for crowd control than actual shooting. From what I'm told, if one puts a red dot on hadji, he tends to back away from your truck and conduct himself in a more rational manner.

Slims nailed it when pointing out the pro's and con's of laser sights. Besides, Crimson Trace grips run around $230 for a Glock. Why settle for looking cool when you could invest in products to make your weapon more efficient/effective?

A set of Novak's, a grip plug, extended slide release and 3.5 lbs trigger connector will vastly improve the performance of your Glock, while only setting you back $180.


MidwayUSA - Novak Front Sight Glock .158" Height .134" Width Steel Blue Tritium
MidwayUSA - Novak Carry Rear Sight Glock Steel Blue Tritium
MidwayUSA - Glock Slide Stop Lever with Spring 17, 19, 22, 23, 26, 27, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 (3 pin model) Extended Steel Blue
MidwayUSA - Lone Wolf Grip Plug Glock 17, 19, 22, 24, 31, 32, 34, 35, 37, 38 Polymer Black
Ghost Inc. 3.5 lb. Trigger CONNECTOR for GLOCKS

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

It doesnt really matter if you make mission so long as you look cool.

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Calmer than you are...

Plan9

Looking cool IS important. Crucial.

Take college discussions for example.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

raptor9k

deleted

purplelirpa

I have a crimson trace grip on my s&w snubnose revolver and my cats simply love it! Cause we all need another reason to point our guns at our cats.

It's funny, I actually opted to have this because of the way the grip felt in my hand--not because of the laser. I wouldn't get laser sights. Glocks have great sights, anyway. Which model?

Plan9

The Crimson Trace laser grip for the J-frame is almost the same as the stock boot grip.

This is assuming you got a newer S&W, not a old wood-handled '70s throwback.

...

I use my Glock's M6X as a cat toy, myself. My fiesty panther loves the hell outta that dot. He actually meows when I switch it on.

...

Stock Glock pistol sights aren't super-amazing, but aftermarket sights make it just as good as anything else.

I recommend any defensive handgun be topped with tritium. Non-illuminated pistol sights are useless at dusk.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

UnclearContent

Really? My J-frame snub has a very small grip.

*prepares himself for penis jokes*

purplelirpa

Odd, I noticed a big difference between with the crimson grip and without. I have tiny hands, though. I feel more of a measure of control of that bucking bitch--leaving my hand less bruised and battered when I have more to grab onto.

Completely off topic, now. I have a glock as well, and I've found firing it to be much more pleasant of an experience. Not just because the recoil is less, but also because he angle of the grip makes the back of it rest just right against the thumb webbing every time.

I would like to get some tritium on the sights. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who uses their gun laser on the cats.

Plan9

For fuck's sake... can a mod fix this thread's title, please?

"Crimson Trace Laser Sights?" would be appreciated.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

fungi020

I have a set on my 357 and like it. Not sure if I will ever use it and have the feature turned off but next time i walk outside at night when the skunk is waiting for me outside my door I may turn it on before hand. lol

KirStang

I like CTC sights for a couple of reasons.

1.) Allow aiming without needing to raise sights to eye level. This is particularly useful imo if you're injured or unable to get an ideal sight picture. You can basically aim the pistol from any position, freeing up the rest of your head/body to hide behind cover, etc.

2.) Faster than irons, particularly during a string of fire. I don't know if this is because I haven't trained enough with my pistol, or recieved the right training, but accurately double tapping multiple targets is far faster for me with CTC grips. Pistol sights tend to bounce around when moving and/or shooting, so using a laser dot as a guide instead, works well for me.

Couple of drawbacks though
- Parallax. Laser is only dead on at the distance u zero it to. Shoots high right/low left (IIRC) at distances beyond/within point of zero.

- Gives opponent nice red dot to shoot.

- May discourage proper stance and grip--key to fast follow up shots.

Over all, I like mine. But, after all, it may be because I spent the money on one, so I could be biased.

Cimarron29414

One thing to consider, laser sights allow the person who takes your gun to shoot as well as you. Nothing beats training and repetition.

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Slims

Sorry, but if your plan includes having your gun taken away you are doing it wrong.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Belligerentkj

Raptor9k, to answer your question check out a company by the name of Front Sight I think you will like what you find. If not then check out Tactical Response. Both will help you to develop as a shooter. Good luck...

Force 10

bump. I've got to comment on this when I have time.

Plan9

Somebody fix the friggin' title already.

I can't take it anymore.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Force 10

That's interesting, because I don't have bad habits from using lasers. Nor does my wife. Also, isn't the proper shooting position the one that's going to give you the advantage over the VCA? So by your analogy, I should halt all training that doesn't teach me to stand in a stall and shoot isosceles? Should I stop training from behind cover while lying down or from a seated position cross draw - because that teaches me bad habits, too? The truth is, CT Lasers are awesome at allowing you the advantage in certain situations. Why wouldn't one learn to use all his/her advantages?

The man in the video is not in a compromised position. But your statement makes mine even more clear. Notice how the man doesn't have bad habits due to using the laser. In fact, he has pretty damn good habits. I'll agree, if you DEPEND on the laser ALL THE TIME, it can slow you down. However, it's an excellent tool. It sure doesn't slow you down when you can't see your sights and sight picture at the same time.

Bad habits. Train properly.

Bad habits. it's not your remote control. It's your life line, especially if you're LE. Batteries are predictable. Deal with it. I've never found dead batteries in my equipment because I know they need changing on a schedule and I maintain my equipment. I've had a blue gun with CT grips on it for three years. I use it as a demo while at the shop. It gets used several times a day almost every day. I've just recently changed the batteries. They lasted two+ years. May I suggest you also do the pencil test on your weapon to make sure the firing pin is still in working order.

Interesting.

This is self protection, not stalking the bad guy. If you're hunting down the bad guy, you're moving in the wrong direction. Furthermore, If you have your finger in register (high on the frame, out of the trigger guard) like you should have, your finger automatically covers the laser. It should only illuminate when your finger moves to the trigger. How hard is that? It's the first and most important rule you should know.


I don't knock the CT lasers. They're a very good addition to your carry pistol. I completely agree that training is paramount. To all. In every instance.

CT lasers are the only lasers I would use on my carry pistol as they are passive on, passive off. I wouldn't hang anything off the rail of my carry pistol.

Your wife carries this pistol and she doesn't know how to use it? You loaded it for her and handed it to her? she was dumbfounded by the so called safety? You mean to tell me that the safety will actually be safe for the VCA and not your wife when the real shit hits the fan? Interesting.

Jinn

"Not to be a dick.." usually means you're being a dick. You might've prefaced the whole post with it, because it carries the whole way through.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Force 10

I removed it. Feel free to add it to your post.

Besides, I'm not a dick...I'm an asshole. With an agenda.

Plan9

Ruprex,

- Those with M9s in my former unit were issued Crimson Trace Laser grips. As the armorer, I often found them broken. I think the only one that was functioning after a few years was the COs (for obvious reasons). Despite being kept in a full-flap padded M12 holsters and rarely used, the things couldn't handle the abuses of E4s (medics) and line officers. Like I said, they're geerqeer tactical trinkets anyway. Don't drop one, it'll break.

- So discovering dead batteries in your electronic device is a training error? Say, my EOTech automatically shuts off after 8 hours. Thing must be crap. During a long day at the range or at a shooting class, I'll raise it up and sometimes it will have shut off on me and I'll have to immediately go to irons. Mmm, I suppose I should rotate the batteries out of my EOTech and Surefires every month while CONUS, right? Heh, I dunno about that. Sounds too paranoid and too expensive for me. I figure sometimes batteries just die for no good reason. You test the device regularly, have spare batteries on you, and keep backup white lights. Shit happens... you can't rely solely on electronic optics, lasers, or flashlights to keep yourself in the fight. You take every advantage you can get from technology, but training with a bare bones carbine/pistol with irons is what will keep you alive.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Slims

Ok, I don't really know where to begin here, but I will try to explain and address your issues. I am probably going to have to rewrite this in the morning as it is 2 am here and I am exhausted:

1: When your average (not a past-master) person begins using a laser sight the tendency is for them to lower the weapon out of alignment with their eyes so they can watch the dot while they shoot. This causes them to search for the dot after firing rather than driving the front-sight back onto the target and can put them out of sorts when they are unable to locate the laser dot or it is washed out. It also often results in the shooter relaxing their stance by breaking their elbows (because you don't need to push the weapon out to see the dot) resulting in reduced ability for follow up shots.

You are correct that the best shooting position is the one that will 'give you the advantage' but in a high-stress situation people react based upon what they have trained ad-nauseum. It is unrealistic to think an average person is going to choose correctly between numerous options in a fight. It is in my opinion best to train one good technique a few simple variations than several disparate ones.



2: That the man in the video was not in a compromised position was exactly my point...He was shooting off a front sight index during the rapid-fire example and was not using the laser at all. Because it is not the ideal tool for that sort of situation.

You are right though, if I am ever in a situation where I can see the target and my gun can see the target and I cannot see my gun and it is indoors where I can see a laser then I would be screwed without a laser sight.

You seem to indicate that you need to practice with both the laser and your sights, which I agree with wholeheartedly. However, most people who start to practice with a laser begin to drop their stance a bit which hurts their ability to engage targets using their sights...they have to search for them first because they failed to draw properly.

3: Telling people to simply train properly is a pretty fantastic expectation. It would really solve all the worlds problems if people would just listen to that simple advice...there would be no car accidents, house fires or overcooked turkeys.

Your statement is accurate....but it isn't a realistic expectation.

4: If you read my post I mentioned that I have several times pulled out dead batteries from my grips for reasons unknown. I am military, have ready access to spare batteries and would change them at regular intervals. Often, without using the sights I would test them prior to a mission only to find them dead. That's not "predictable" other than I can "Predict" they won't work when I need them no matter how often I change the batteries.

5: If you move your finger over the laser of your weapon you will only look like ET. Even in a self defense situation I would prefer to avoid advertising my current position. I recognize it is a relatively minor concern but it is a concern nonetheless.

6: You couldn't possibly have been more patronizing when you decided to pick apart my comment about my wife.

here's the deal: I am military and had been away from home for a considerable period of time. I have walked my wife through proper safety, handling and shooting procedures many times and had always insisted the maintain her pistol in a decocked safety-off position. At the time of my post she had begun to keep the safety on as an extra measure of insurance against ND's but had not practiced using the pistol in that configuration. In order to demonstrate the need to practice how you plan to shoot I took her to the range and set the pistol up safety-on as she had recently been keeping it.

I did this as a learning point and to identify a training deficiency to her so she would be willing to correct the problem. When she tried to shoot the pistol, having shot exclusively with no safety in the past she failed to remove the safety. Being an AVERAGE shooter rather than a commando wannabe she naturally was confused by the weapon not-functioning and looked to assess the problem.

Sure, she should have known everything possible about the pistol, practiced with it to the point where she can assemble and disassemble it upside down and blindfolded, know the manual of arms so well nothing can throw her off and have jumped immediately into immediate action followed by remedial action should she identify a problem. But she also is not a full-time gunslinger and keeps the pistol only for basic protection and rarely if ever takes it out of the house.

The point of my posting the range story was that she made a change to her weapon without practicing it and expected everything to simply work. It didn't and the problem was fixed at the range as a result. The same applies to fancy gadgets...if you don't practice with them extensively they will fail you. Likewise f you practice with them only and not the basics they will screw you when you need to keep it simple.

If you are the average person and you are only going to go to the range every couple months and shoot 50 rounds before going home, you will get the most benefit from keeping it dead-simple. You don't have the time or the rounds to practice anything fancy without sacrificing basics.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Force 10

The Eotech is designed to go out if left on. Good iron sights are a must and the basis of sound shooting. One should never run with without them. The CT are an enhancement. The gentleman I quoted made it sound like CT grips were the bane of existence - they have their merits in home defense & civilian street use. And yes, checking your batteries on a regular schedule is part of a good training routine. Just like checking to make sure your Eotech works when you know you're going into the crud. The person who started this thread was obviously talking about the home defense or carry gun. I'm not advocating CT for military purposes, that wasn't the question posed.

Plan9

I totally want the laser pointer that Sylvester Stallone has atop his Jati-Matic in "Cobra." * That thing'll scare the shit outta bad guys.

* I would have also accepted the gigundo laser Kurt Russell has atop his chrome-plated justice-dealer in "Tango and Cash."

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."