US customs trying to define any knife as a switchblade - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Fire · 06-11-2009, 12:46 AM

Apparently, the US customs people are trying to rewrite the definition of a switchblade knife, which is used in the majority of states knife laws as the de-facto definition, to include any assisted opening knife, and ANY KNIFE THAT CAN BE OPENED WITH ONE HAND- thus including any easy opener, ie over 80% of the pocket knives sold in the us, and even a few swiss army knives.... If it potentially can be opened with one hand its a no-no under these rules, no matter how it is done, ie if one customs guy can manage it with a weird trick, its a switchblade... they have refused to extend the period for comments beyond 30 days, so the comment period expires this month.... so guys, if this is'nt stopped, and you carry a modern pocket knife, welcome to being a felon in most states...... (sorry, I have no look, but google it for more info )

samcol · 06-11-2009, 05:47 AM

I really don't understand why switchblades are illegal to begin with, but banning almost every folder is nuts. UK knife ban here we come.

Hektore · 06-11-2009, 05:47 AM

Read the Customs Release Here.

I read some of the proposal, and it appears to me they aren't rewriting anything. What they are doing is revoking exceptions they made for certain kinds knives (albeit some rather popular ones) on the basis that they have a spring assisted opening, and therefore ought to be considered switchblades.

Here are the relevant definitions as stated in the letters:

Quote:

Statutory and Regulatory Background

Pursuant to the Act of August 12, 1958 (Pub. L. 85–623, codified at 15 U.S.C.
§§ 1241–1245, otherwise known as the ‘‘Switchblade Knife Act’’), whoever
knowingly introduces, or manufactures for introduction, into interstate commerce,
or transports or distributes in interstate commerce, any switchblade
knife, shall be fined or imprisoned, or both.

The Customs and Border Protection (‘‘CBP’’) Regulations promulgated pursuant
to the Switchblade Knife Act are set forth in 19 CFR §§ 12.95–12.103.

In this regard we note the following definitions:

§ 12.95 Definitions.
Terms as used in §§ 12.96 through 12.103 of this part are defined as follows:

(a) Switchblade knife. . . . any imported knife, . . . including ‘‘Balisong’’,
‘‘butterfly’’ . . . knives, which has one or more of the following
characteristics or identities:

(1) A blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to
a button or device in the handle of the knife, or any knife with a
blade which opens automatically by operation of inertia, gravity,
or both;
(2) Knives which, by insignificant preliminary preparation, as described
in paragraph (b) of this section, can be altered or converted
so as to open automatically by hand pressure applied to
a button or device in the handle of the knife or by operation of
inertia, gravity, or both;
(3) Unassembled knife kits or knife handles without blades which,
when fully assembled with added blades, springs, or other
parts, are knives which open automatically by hand pressure
applied to a button or device in the handle of the knife or by operation
of inertia, gravity, or both; or
(4) Knives with a detachable blade that is propelled by a springoperated
mechanism, and components thereof.

(c) Utilitarian use. ‘‘Utilitarian use’’ includes but is not necessarily
limited to use:

(1) For a customary household purpose;
(2) For usual personal convenience, including grooming;
(3) In the practice of a profession, trade, or commercial or employment
activity;
(4) In the performance of a craft or hobby;
(5) In the course of such outdoor pursuits as hunting and fishing;
and
(6) In scouting activities.
Other pertinent regulations are as follows:

§ 12.96 Imports unrestricted under the Act.

(a) Common and special purpose knives. Imported knives with a blade
style designed for a primary utilitarian use, as defined in § 12.95(c),
shall be admitted to unrestricted entry provided that in condition as
entered the imported knife is not a switchblade knife as defined in

§ 12.95(a)(1). . . .

§ 12.97 Importations contrary to law.
Importations of switchblade knives, except as permitted by 15 U.S.C.
1244, are importations contrary to law and are subject to forfeiture under
19 U.S.C. 1595a(c).

I didn't find anything in there about being able to open a knife with a single hand or not, so I'm going to pretend it isn't there until I see something else substantial about it.

Outside of that, I don't know that I have a problem with this outside of questioning the act entirely, which I don't think is really the point here.

samcol · 06-11-2009, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hektore

I didn't find anything in there about being able to open a knife with a single hand or not, so I'm going to pretend it isn't there until I see something else substantial about it.

Outside of that, I don't know that I have a problem with this outside of questioning the act entirely, which I don't think is really the point here.

Quote:

1) A blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to
a button or device in the handle of the knife, or any knife with a
blade which opens automatically by operation of inertia, gravity,
or both;

This basically describes a knife being able to open with one hand without actually saying it imo. This would ban my spyderco wave since it opens due to inertia as it leaves the pocket. I guess thumb assisted type blades would be banned too per the inertia clause I dunno...

telekinetic · 06-11-2009, 06:03 AM

Yeah, any large single blade knife, if properly lubricated and wrist-flicked can open inertially. This is a HUGE redefinition. Lucky for me that I can legally carry a switchblade anyways...I <3 this state

dksuddeth · 06-11-2009, 08:34 AM

this is how disarmament happens. turn enough people in to felons, voila. instant control of the populace. its going to get ugly fellow americans.

Willravel · 06-11-2009, 08:41 AM

They just get to ignore the first half of the word? Switchblade without the switch is just blade. This isn't rocket science.

Hopefully someone will challenge it in court and the rule will be overturned.

shakran · 06-11-2009, 08:51 AM

Do people not realize how stupid our weapons laws are? I can have an assault rifle but not a fishing knife? Either the 2nd amendment gives me the right to bear arms or not. If they want to ban knives, fine with me. But they'd better ban guns while they're at it. The senselessness of people wanting to rid the streets of knives while vigorously supporting the right to carry a gun on those same streets has always struck me as asinine.

samcol · 06-11-2009, 08:56 AM

I think it's sickening how many laws are written in this fashion. Laws should be passed by congress not by rewording regulations. I wonder who ordered the command to do this...

Plan9 · 06-11-2009, 10:14 AM

Just wait! Your Mach 3 is a triple-bladed fixed knife capable of aiding another 9/11 style attack.

...

Remember, kids:

Boxcutters: the devastating weapon that brought the most powerful nation in the world to its knees.

genuinegirly · 06-11-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Boxcutters: the devastating weapon that brought the most powerful nation in the world to its knees.

I can unleash my box-cutter with one hand - and it has a little knob that assists! I guess I can't travel with it.

Plan9 · 06-11-2009, 10:21 AM

Exactly my point.

telekinetic · 06-11-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Do people not realize how stupid our weapons laws are? I can have an assault rifle but not a fishing knife? Either the 2nd amendment gives me the right to bear arms or not. If they want to ban knives, fine with me. But they'd better ban guns while they're at it. The senselessness of people wanting to rid the streets of knives while vigorously supporting the right to carry a gun on those same streets has always struck me as asinine.

The functional difference between a what is commonly referred to as "assault rifle" aka "Scary Black Rifle" and a hunting gun is about the same amount of difference between a fishing knife and a switchblade. They both have a bad reputation based solely on media misconceptions, and the distinction has absolutely no significance in reality.

A true 'assault rifle' is one with selective fire, (what the media likes to call 'machine guns') and due to existing restrictions on their production, these are an order of magnitude more expensive than their semi-auto-only cousins, making them extremely difficult and expensive to own.

genuinegirly · 06-11-2009, 10:23 AM

And here I thought I couldn't relate to this thread.

dksuddeth · 06-11-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Do people not realize how stupid our weapons laws are? I can have an assault rifle but not a fishing knife? Either the 2nd amendment gives me the right to bear arms or not. If they want to ban knives, fine with me. But they'd better ban guns while they're at it. The senselessness of people wanting to rid the streets of knives while vigorously supporting the right to carry a gun on those same streets has always struck me as asinine.

I think you have some of the groups mixed up, badly. I know of no pro gun rights group pushing for these anti knife laws.

shakran · 06-11-2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic

The functional difference between a what is commonly referred to as "assault rifle" aka "Scary Black Rifle" and a hunting gun is about the same amount of difference between a fishing knife and a switchblade. They both have a bad reputation based solely on media misconceptions, and the distinction has absolutely no significance in reality.

Agreed. But an assault rifle (no matter what definition you choose) is clearly more capable of injuring and killing more efficiently and from a greater distance than a knife. When's the last time you heard of a drive-by knifing? I'm not advocating that we ban any guns. I'm advocating that we make our weapons laws consistent and sane. It makes no sense that we have a recent landmark ruling asserting that the 2nd does indeed guarantee us the right to bear arms, and yet somehow knives seem to fall outside the definition of arms. The prevailing attitude seems to be that the 2nd says we can have guns, and only guns, when in fact "arms" is a broad category including (but of course not limited to) guns, knives, swords, nunchaku, tonfa, daggers, and maces. Of those weapons that I listed, I could with far less hassle get and carry a gun than any of the others, and that's asinine. It should be equally hard or easy to carry a knife as it is to carry a gun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I think you have some of the groups mixed up, badly. I know of no pro gun rights group pushing for these anti knife laws.

Yeah, I didn't make that sentence very clear. I am not claiming that the NRA is anti-knife. Only that people seem far more accepting of the NRA and people who own guns, than they are of people who own folding knives.

Plan9 · 06-11-2009, 11:06 AM

Man, I'm going to make a killing building knives in my basement in a couple of years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

It should be equally hard or easy to carry a knife as it is to carry a gun.

Common sense obviously never prevails here. Knives are simpler and more prolific than guns, but equally as scary due to OJ, slasher films, etc.

Knives are smaller in size, less expensive, and serve many different functions. I've used knives a zillion times and never used a firearm despite almost always carrying both at the same time. Knives serve many functions, including abusive functions such as pry tools and screwdrivers. At close range, however, a knife is just as lethal as a firearm (perhaps more so). I've witnessed such from local police video of gang fights... stuff is way brutal.

Also: You can make a knife out of a toothbrush. Cutting and stabbing tools are the easiest weapon that requires effort to make. Sure, you can build guns in your man-lair, but any idiot can make a knife in a few minutes by sharpening a piece of metal and wrapping some duct tape around the tang.

I figure a firearm serves only two legal functions: hunting or self defense. Granted, I've seen a dumbass medic in Iraq using his M9 as a hammer, but that doesn't count. My point is that society is both accepting and scared of knives because they're utilitarian and yet anybody can get all Helter Skelter with one.

...

People are stupid and afraid of inanimate objects.

Redlemon · 06-11-2009, 11:10 AM

I'm confused that this is part of Customs. So, US made blades that do any of these things would be OK, we just won't be able to import them? Weird.

MSD · 06-11-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

I think it's sickening how many laws are written in this fashion. Laws should be passed by congress not by rewording regulations. I wonder who ordered the command to do this...

Based on the reversal of the shoestring ruling (there is still a 14" shoelace out there registered as a machine gun, complete with a serial number,) they're likely to OK this, but someone on a gun forum has asked the ATF for clarification on whether or not a hamster could be classified as a machine gun.
http%3A%2F%2Fnickleghorn.com%2Fimages%2Fhamster%2520letter%2520edited.pdf&h=51eb1c9d22c1569ea5d172f3fb7c167c

Hektore · 06-11-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

This basically describes a knife being able to open with one hand without actually saying it imo. This would ban my spyderco wave since it opens due to inertia as it leaves the pocket. I guess thumb assisted type blades would be banned too per the inertia clause I dunno...

I don't read it that way at all, I view it as a move to eliminate knives that don't 'lock' closed and knives that are 'assist' opening. The inertia/gravity bit is to cover butterfly knives and what not - any folder that locks closed does not open under inertia or gravity.

As far as redefining: what is actually going on here is they are revoking exceptions they granted, if you read through the proposal it is just a list of letters of explanations for knives that were granted exceptions and no longer are.

Quote:

AGENCY: U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Department of
Homeland Security.
ACTION: Notice of proposed revocation of four ruling letters and revocation
of treatment relating to the admissibility of certain knives
with spring-assisted opening mechanisms.

Saying they're going to ban all knives, or all folders, etc is being sensationalist. This is a small change, to knives with spring assisted opening mechanisms. I don't think that applies to 80% of knives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

I'm confused that this is part of Customs. So, US made blades that do any of these things would be OK, we just won't be able to import them? Weird.

Well, it also says introduces to interstate commerce, yadda, yadda. So the knives can't cross state lines. Also, it would seem to me that further clarification on what is and is not permissible to carry would end up being decided at the state level.

therealcat · 06-11-2009, 08:46 PM

[sincerity] Why do those commoners need knives at all? Let them eat cake with spoons. [/sincerity]

fiatguy85 · 06-11-2009, 10:26 PM

I've always thought that there wasn't really much difference between a switchblade and an assisted-opening or other knife you could open by flicking your wrist. However, I also believe that all of these should be legal. Anyone that carries and uses a folding knife regularly probably knows the value of being able to open it quickly with one hand.

06-11-2009, 12:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	US customs trying to define any knife as a switchblade Apparently, the US customs people are trying to rewrite the definition of a switchblade knife, which is used in the majority of states knife laws as the de-facto definition, to include any assisted opening knife, and ANY KNIFE THAT CAN BE OPENED WITH ONE HAND- thus including any easy opener, ie over 80% of the pocket knives sold in the us, and even a few swiss army knives.... If it potentially can be opened with one hand its a no-no under these rules, no matter how it is done, ie if one customs guy can manage it with a weird trick, its a switchblade... they have refused to extend the period for comments beyond 30 days, so the comment period expires this month.... so guys, if this is'nt stopped, and you carry a modern pocket knife, welcome to being a felon in most states...... (sorry, I have no look, but google it for more info ) __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

06-11-2009, 05:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	I really don't understand why switchblades are illegal to begin with, but banning almost every folder is nuts. UK knife ban here we come. __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

06-11-2009, 06:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	Yeah, any large single blade knife, if properly lubricated and wrist-flicked can open inertially. This is a HUGE redefinition. Lucky for me that I can legally carry a switchblade anyways...I <3 this state __________________ twisted no more

06-11-2009, 08:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	this is how disarmament happens. turn enough people in to felons, voila. instant control of the populace. its going to get ugly fellow americans. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

06-11-2009, 08:56 AM	#9 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	I think it's sickening how many laws are written in this fashion. Laws should be passed by congress not by rewording regulations. I wonder who ordered the command to do this... __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

06-11-2009, 08:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	They just get to ignore the first half of the word? Switchblade without the switch is just blade. This isn't rocket science. Hopefully someone will challenge it in court and the rule will be overturned.

06-11-2009, 08:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	Do people not realize how stupid our weapons laws are? I can have an assault rifle but not a fishing knife? Either the 2nd amendment gives me the right to bear arms or not. If they want to ban knives, fine with me. But they'd better ban guns while they're at it. The senselessness of people wanting to rid the streets of knives while vigorously supporting the right to carry a gun on those same streets has always struck me as asinine.

06-11-2009, 10:14 AM	#10 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Just wait! Your Mach 3 is a triple-bladed fixed knife capable of aiding another 9/11 style attack. ... Remember, kids: Boxcutters: the devastating weapon that brought the most powerful nation in the world to its knees. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

06-11-2009, 10:21 AM	#12 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Exactly my point. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

06-11-2009, 10:23 AM	#14 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	And here I thought I couldn't relate to this thread. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

06-11-2009, 11:10 AM	#18 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I'm confused that this is part of Customs. So, US made blades that do any of these things would be OK, we just won't be able to import them? Weird. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

06-11-2009, 08:46 PM	#21 (permalink)
therealcat Upright	[sincerity] Why do those commoners need knives at all? Let them eat cake with spoons. [/sincerity]

06-11-2009, 10:26 PM	#22 (permalink)
fiatguy85 Crazy	I've always thought that there wasn't really much difference between a switchblade and an assisted-opening or other knife you could open by flicking your wrist. However, I also believe that all of these should be legal. Anyone that carries and uses a folding knife regularly probably knows the value of being able to open it quickly with one hand.