New PF9, that I suck at shooting :( - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

telekinetic · 06-08-2009, 07:43 PM

I got a new gun (yay) and decided since it was primarily for concealed carry, go Maximum Small, and picked up a KelTec PF9 9mm.

Took it to the range the first time out, and wow...I have shot .45ACP +P that kicked less than this.

By the end of the box (115 grain FMJ), I suspect I was flinching like crazy. Not to mention that, it has about a two mile long trigger pull that was helping me put everything in the left half of the target. I was doing my best to shoot from an isoceles stance, but who knows if I was able to keep any decent form.

Here's the last target I shot, at 10 yards (rings are inches from center):

Just to ensure myself I wasn't crazy, I overlaid this with a magazines worth from a friend's .22 pistol (note the smaller holes), but that probably wasn't even that telling, as it had black sites front and back, and black sites on a black target are a pile of suck...in any case, my grouping wasn't that much better. Chalk that up to generally poor marksmanship or the fact that my hand was already beat up (psychologically at least), either one.

My question:

1) What should I look into to tighten up my grouping? Any drill ideas? I've got a set of snap caps that I've been practicing trigger control with.

2) Anyone familiar enough with KelTec to know if the 'superglue the pencil eraser to act as a soft trigger stop' trick really does that much for accuracy? It sounds kind of, how do you say, janky...even moreso than most of the stuff the good folks at ktog suggests.

3) What kind of groupings do you shoot (heh) for in your daily carry defensive handguns?

Plan9 · 06-09-2009, 08:58 AM

Dude... it's okay, I can't hit office paper at 7 yards with KirStang's S&W 10mm and I've been shooting for years. Talk about humbling!

First off: It's a Kel-Tec PF-9, not a friggin' H&K Mark 23. You're not going to be poppin' dimes at 10 yards with that thing. Effective barrel length is similar to a snub nose .38. You also have to consider the crap sights and sight radius on top of the light weight. You've got a lot working against you here.

Kel-Tec's have never been known to be tackdrivers. I've got two, myself... and if you think you did horrible, you should see me at 10 yards with the P32. I was considering purchasing the PF-9 for a summer carry piece because it's such a great concept: tiny polymer single-stack 9mm. Quality, however, is always an issue. You (usually) get what you pay for and Kel-Tec is a perfect example. Solid design but their fit and finish leaves a lot to be desired and they seem have more fluke guns than most.

I'd recommend the wider trigger shoe (shown on their site, it helped me with the P32) and the training yourself to hold the trigger depressed after it breaks while the weapon cycles instead of releasing it (if that's the problem and often is). I don't know how I feel about the pencil eraser overtravel stop thing, generally seems too ghetto for me but has worked for others enough to be the defacto cheap solution for the infamous Lord of the Rings trigger. I've lurked in the KTOG for years and the bell curve for their pistols is insanely wide. Some people have Hi-Points and some have Korth wannabes.

Here's the "eraser solution" if you haven't already looked at it twice: == PF-9 Eraser Overtravel Stop ==

Have you done the KTOG-recommended "fluff 'n buff?" == Fluff 'n Buff == Could also be described as "polishing a turd."

If I recall correctly, there was a thread detailing an internal trigger pull reduction / shortening WECSOG mod for the P-11 that you could easily adapt to your pistol. If you're willing to risk having to buy a new grip / trigger group parts (if you screw up), it may be worth fiddling around with to improve your little PF-9. You've proven yourself to be pretty handy with Nerf weapons, so I'd imagine you'd be able to unfuck this craptacular trigger.

...

I'm glad someone on TFP has a PF-9. I was waiting until someone I "knew" had one before I thought about buying one.

Slims · 06-09-2009, 05:06 PM

You need to do dryfire practice more often than you shoot it. Also work in a couple minutes of dry-fire in the middle of your range practice or whenever you feel yourself starting to flinch.

It really helps.

therealcat · 06-09-2009, 06:24 PM

It looks good enough to save your life.

I tell my students to empty the gun at the target right this instant, then count the hits and misses. After the noise stops, there are two questions:

Did you save your life?
Did you kill any innocent bystanders?

Simple, eh? It sometimes takes weeks of practice for people to catch on, and sometimes only a few hours of range time.

Plan9 · 06-09-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealcat

I tell my students to empty the gun at the target right this instant, then count the hits and misses. After the noise stops, there are two questions:

Did you save your life?
Did you kill any innocent bystanders?

Wow, that's the stupidest thing I've heard here. You're not serious, are you?

telekinetic · 06-10-2009, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Dude... it's okay, I can't hit office paper at 7 yards with KirStang's S&W 10mm and I've been shooting for years. Talk about humbling!

First off: It's a Kel-Tec PF-9, not a friggin' H&K Mark 23. You're not going to be poppin' dimes at 10 yards with that thing. Effective barrel length is similar to a snub nose .38. You also have to consider the crap sights and sight radius on top of the light weight. You've got a lot working against you here.

Oh, I realize that I'm fighting a losing battle, I just want to get my accuracy up as much as I can.

Quote:

Kel-Tec's have never been known to be tackdrivers. I've got two, myself... and if you think you did horrible, you should see me at 10 yards with the P32. I was considering purchasing the PF-9 for a summer carry piece because it's such a great concept: tiny polymer single-stack 9mm. Quality, however, is always an issue. You (usually) get what you pay for and Kel-Tec is a perfect example. Solid design but their fit and finish leaves a lot to be desired and they seem have more fluke guns than most.

I'm pretty happy with the build quality on this one. The trigger is long as hell, but at least it is smooth and seemed to break predictably. I didn't have time to fluff and buff (bought friday, buddy wanted to shoot saturday morning), but still didn't have a single FTE, FTF, or light strike through 100 rounds.

Priority one for me is sand all the damn part lines off the polymer grip and trigger!

Quote:

I'd recommend the wider trigger shoe (shown on their site, it helped me with the P32) and the training yourself to hold the trigger depressed after it breaks while the weapon cycles instead of releasing it (if that's the problem and often is). I don't know how I feel about the pencil eraser overtravel stop thing, generally seems too ghetto for me but has worked for others enough to be the defacto cheap solution for the infamous Lord of the Rings trigger. I've lurked in the KTOG for years and the bell curve for their pistols is insanely wide. Some people have Hi-Points and some have Korth wannabes.

Here's the "eraser solution" if you haven't already looked at it twice: == PF-9 Eraser Overtravel Stop ==

Have you done the KTOG-recommended "fluff 'n buff?" == Fluff 'n Buff == Could also be described as "polishing a turd."

Yeah, fluff and buff is planned for this week for sure. I am as far from a gun snob as possible, but I think I'm going to get as accurate as I can without gluing any office supplies to my CCW...

For reference about my lack of snobbery: I actually have a hi-point .380 that I can mostly keep in the 1 and 2 ring from 10 yards. Always goes bang, and puts the holes where I want them--other than being ugly and heavy, and in a caliber I'd prefer not to trust my life on, I have no complaints there.

Quote:

If I recall correctly, there was a thread detailing an internal trigger pull reduction / shortening WECSOG mod for the P-11 that you could easily adapt to your pistol. If you're willing to risk having to buy a new grip / trigger group parts (if you screw up), it may be worth fiddling around with to improve your little PF-9. You've proven yourself to be pretty handy with Nerf weapons, so I'd imagine you'd be able to unfuck this craptacular trigger.

Well, as I understand it, the PF-9 is based on a P3AT trigger group, rather than the horrible turd they put in the P11. I am going to polish all the interfaces and see if that helps...I really think most of my inaccuracy is driver error.

Quote:

I'm glad someone on TFP has a PF-9. I was waiting until someone I "knew" had one before I thought about buying one.

Let me know if there's any size comparison pics you want or any other details you were curious about. I paid $279 new, but had to scour the city for a week to find one in stock...you are more than welcome to shoot it if you find yourself to AZ (and can find anywhere with 9mm in stock

)

---------- Post added at 06:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealcat

It looks good enough to save your life.

I tell my students to empty the gun at the target right this instant, then count the hits and misses. After the noise stops, there are two questions:

Did you save your life?
Did you kill any innocent bystanders?

Simple, eh? It sometimes takes weeks of practice for people to catch on, and sometimes only a few hours of range time.

Uhh...I'm all for practicing double taps, but am I hearing you correctly that in some sort of gun and/or self defense class, you advocate rapid firing through a whole magazine without regard to accuracy? What is your 'innocent bystander' criteria--if there is any way they can 'kill an innocent bystander' then they choose a pretty shitty angle to shoot from.

What's the anecdotal statistic, your grouping size triples (conservatively) when you're shooting at meat instead of paper?

---------- Post added at 07:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

Edit: Wow, maybe I'm being too hard on myself. From the eraser stop thread:

Quote:

Range report

I am extremely happy with my results. There are other factors at play (like practice with snap caps) but my aiming is a lot better. I am more or less in a 12" circle at 11 ft, give or take. (I was awful before My flinching is also down though- so that helps too. I still like to "stage" the trigger, aim, then fire. There is no extra movement as the long trigger goes back past the break-point.

'more or less' a FOOT circle at 11 feet, and he's extremely happy?!? O_o I can't imagine what he was before, that still sounds pretty awful to me.

wraithhibn · 06-10-2009, 08:39 AM

My M&P has a tendency to pull low and left as well, it's partially the trigger getting broken in and partially the shooter. I think the answer = more range time.

Plan9 · 06-10-2009, 08:44 AM

Hey, we have a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy regarding Hi-Point products here at TFP.

... and if we don't, we should.

samcol · 06-10-2009, 09:20 AM

For what it is I don't think that's too terrible. High recoil handguns wih long triggers pulls are a pain to shoot well for me as well. However, I think if you had a few maker's manhattens before going to the range your grouping would improve

telekinetic · 06-10-2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Hey, we have a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy regarding Hi-Point products here at TFP.

... and if we don't, we should.

I'd leap to its defense, but the truth is I'm selling it to partially fund a P22 or Beretta Neos or something...even 9mm is expensive and hard to find these days. I think the guy buying it was as interested in the 300 rounds it comes with as he was the gun itself!

Plan9 · 06-10-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic

I'd leap to its defense, but the truth is I'm selling it to partially fund a P22 or Beretta Neos or something...even 9mm is expensive and hard to find these days. I think the guy buying it was as interested in the 300 rounds it comes with as he was the gun itself!

Protip: P22, not Neos.

06-08-2009, 07:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	New PF9, that I suck at shooting :( I got a new gun (yay) and decided since it was primarily for concealed carry, go Maximum Small, and picked up a KelTec PF9 9mm. Took it to the range the first time out, and wow...I have shot .45ACP +P that kicked less than this. By the end of the box (115 grain FMJ), I suspect I was flinching like crazy. Not to mention that, it has about a two mile long trigger pull that was helping me put everything in the left half of the target. I was doing my best to shoot from an isoceles stance, but who knows if I was able to keep any decent form. Here's the last target I shot, at 10 yards (rings are inches from center): Just to ensure myself I wasn't crazy, I overlaid this with a magazines worth from a friend's .22 pistol (note the smaller holes), but that probably wasn't even that telling, as it had black sites front and back, and black sites on a black target are a pile of suck...in any case, my grouping wasn't that much better. Chalk that up to generally poor marksmanship or the fact that my hand was already beat up (psychologically at least), either one. My question: 1) What should I look into to tighten up my grouping? Any drill ideas? I've got a set of snap caps that I've been practicing trigger control with. 2) Anyone familiar enough with KelTec to know if the 'superglue the pencil eraser to act as a soft trigger stop' trick really does that much for accuracy? It sounds kind of, how do you say, janky...even moreso than most of the stuff the good folks at ktog suggests. 3) What kind of groupings do you shoot (heh) for in your daily carry defensive handguns? __________________ twisted no more Last edited by telekinetic; 06-08-2009 at 07:45 PM..

06-09-2009, 08:58 AM	#2 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Dude... it's okay, I can't hit office paper at 7 yards with KirStang's S&W 10mm and I've been shooting for years. Talk about humbling! First off: It's a Kel-Tec PF-9, not a friggin' H&K Mark 23. You're not going to be poppin' dimes at 10 yards with that thing. Effective barrel length is similar to a snub nose .38. You also have to consider the crap sights and sight radius on top of the light weight. You've got a lot working against you here. Kel-Tec's have never been known to be tackdrivers. I've got two, myself... and if you think you did horrible, you should see me at 10 yards with the P32. I was considering purchasing the PF-9 for a summer carry piece because it's such a great concept: tiny polymer single-stack 9mm. Quality, however, is always an issue. You (usually) get what you pay for and Kel-Tec is a perfect example. Solid design but their fit and finish leaves a lot to be desired and they seem have more fluke guns than most. I'd recommend the wider trigger shoe (shown on their site, it helped me with the P32) and the training yourself to hold the trigger depressed after it breaks while the weapon cycles instead of releasing it (if that's the problem and often is). I don't know how I feel about the pencil eraser overtravel stop thing, generally seems too ghetto for me but has worked for others enough to be the defacto cheap solution for the infamous Lord of the Rings trigger. I've lurked in the KTOG for years and the bell curve for their pistols is insanely wide. Some people have Hi-Points and some have Korth wannabes. Here's the "eraser solution" if you haven't already looked at it twice: == PF-9 Eraser Overtravel Stop == Have you done the KTOG-recommended "fluff 'n buff?" == Fluff 'n Buff == Could also be described as "polishing a turd." If I recall correctly, there was a thread detailing an internal trigger pull reduction / shortening WECSOG mod for the P-11 that you could easily adapt to your pistol. If you're willing to risk having to buy a new grip / trigger group parts (if you screw up), it may be worth fiddling around with to improve your little PF-9. You've proven yourself to be pretty handy with Nerf weapons, so I'd imagine you'd be able to unfuck this craptacular trigger. ... I'm glad someone on TFP has a PF-9. I was waiting until someone I "knew" had one before I thought about buying one. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 06-09-2009 at 10:48 AM..

06-09-2009, 05:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	You need to do dryfire practice more often than you shoot it. Also work in a couple minutes of dry-fire in the middle of your range practice or whenever you feel yourself starting to flinch. It really helps. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-09-2009, 06:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
therealcat Upright	It looks good enough to save your life. I tell my students to empty the gun at the target right this instant, then count the hits and misses. After the noise stops, there are two questions: Did you save your life? Did you kill any innocent bystanders? Simple, eh? It sometimes takes weeks of practice for people to catch on, and sometimes only a few hours of range time.

06-10-2009, 08:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
wraithhibn Dopefish Location: the 'Ville	My M&P has a tendency to pull low and left as well, it's partially the trigger getting broken in and partially the shooter. I think the answer = more range time. __________________ If you won't dress like the Victoria Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.

06-10-2009, 08:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Hey, we have a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy regarding Hi-Point products here at TFP. ... and if we don't, we should. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

06-10-2009, 09:20 AM	#9 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	For what it is I don't think that's too terrible. High recoil handguns wih long triggers pulls are a pain to shoot well for me as well. However, I think if you had a few maker's manhattens before going to the range your grouping would improve __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.