Deciding on when and where to be armed. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ChrisJericho · 05-02-2009, 06:18 PM

So I have been considering purchasing a firearm for some time. I've done a lot of research, I've gone to a firing range and shot various types of handguns and in different calibers. I still need to try some rifles and shotguns. Once I buy my own house I will probably purchase a firearm (right now I have roommates and I would not feel comfortable having guns around people who are not trained to handle them).

However one ongoing question I ask myself is to what degree would I be armed. By this I mean, I often see people who buy a gun for strictly home defense. However, I see this as somewhat of a mistake because often times violent crimes are happening out in public, such as shootings in malls, public transportation, banks, convenience stores etc.

In my mind, only having access to a weapon at home is equivalent to only having protection for half the day (if for example the average person gets home from work at 6:30 pm and leaves for work at 6:30 am). Therefore it seems logical to me that if someone does make the decision to own a firearm, that he or she carries a weapon on them as much as legally possible in a concealed or open carry configuration.

Another topic that I consider is the degree to which I would arm myself in my own home. Obviously it would be a good idea to have access to gun close to the bed since a large portion of time is spend in that area every night. However, would I place a weapon on each level of the house, or perhaps each individual room?

I know that these are decisions I would have to make for myself. And that each decision impacts which types of firearms I would purchase (possibly a subcompact pistol for concealed carry, shotgun for home defense etc).

I would appreciate any input you may have.

Zeraph · 05-02-2009, 07:29 PM

Personally I am of the opinion that most places are not worth CC. Schools, airports, government buildings, bars...a lot of places you can't or shouldn't be carrying anyway. And the rest are probably safe enough that situational awareness will get you a lot more than a gun would. If you know you'll be going to a rough part of town where muggings and armed robbery are common, then definitely go for it. Going to the grocery store in white suburbia? Yeah right.

As far as multiple guns in different parts of the house, it really just depends on how safe/paranoid you want to be. If you live in a 2 story house, then one on each floor would be good. But the more you add the less bang for you buck you're going to get so to speak. Also, if you ever have kids over, then no. But if you have spare cash, and no kids, then why not? I'd get 2 or 3 and stash them in strategic places around the house. Also, try to think where you spend most of your time. Personally I'd go for something in the bedroom, and the living room/where you watch tv or use the computer a lot and one in my car (if I had the cash).

samcol · 05-03-2009, 04:06 PM

If you want a good gun to do it all start with a handgun and work from there. Add maybe a shotgun to keep loaded somewhere in your house in addition to your handgun that is on your nightstand while you sleep.

While shotguns are great for home defense, they can't protect you very well outside of the house. Having weapons throughout the house ready to go into action is totally overkill (unless you have immediate reason to believe otherwise) IMO. I feel when it comes to weapons having a .22 on your person 90% of the time is more effective than having a .357 mag, or .45 that was left in the car or at home because it was too big/bulky to carry.

Do some research and pick the best weapon for you. You will likely learn the limitations of the platform you selected and want to buy more weapons to fill the void. Then it only goes downhill from there lol.

rahl · 05-03-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Personally I am of the opinion that most places are not worth CC. Schools, airports, government buildings, bars...a lot of places you can't or shouldn't be carrying anyway. And the rest are probably safe enough that situational awareness will get you a lot more than a gun would. If you know you'll be going to a rough part of town where muggings and armed robbery are common, then definitely go for it. Going to the grocery store in white suburbia? Yeah right.

As far as multiple guns in different parts of the house, it really just depends on how safe/paranoid you want to be. If you live in a 2 story house, then one on each floor would be good. But the more you add the less bang for you buck you're going to get so to speak. Also, if you ever have kids over, then no. But if you have spare cash, and no kids, then why not? I'd get 2 or 3 and stash them in strategic places around the house. Also, try to think where you spend most of your time. Personally I'd go for something in the bedroom, and the living room/where you watch tv or use the computer a lot and one in my car (if I had the cash).

I would respectfully disagree. Everywhere is safe until it isn't. I don't carry in airports, schools, or bars because I am prohibited from doing so, but if I am going to the mall you better believe I'll be carrying. Too many assholes who want to kill themselves, and also wish to take as many innocent people with them are out there that I refuse to fall victim to.

ratbastid · 05-03-2009, 05:14 PM

This is wild.... I'm not pro or anti gun, I don't own one myself, but I don't have anything against them, and there have been times I was very glad to be with trained, competent people who were carrying.

But... really? You think the mall is basically unsafe? You really think there's ANY part of ANY town where you're more likely to be mugged than not to be mugged?

You're aware this is based on anecdotal interpretation of your own, and not borne out by actual crime statistics, right?

I mean, go ahead--if you're trained and safe with your weapon, it's no skin off my back if you're packing 24/7. You bought the piece, you got the license, so God bless. But I hate that you have to live with that cloud of paranoia over your head all the time.

ChrisJericho · 05-03-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

This is wild.... I'm not pro or anti gun, I don't own one myself, but I don't have anything against them, and there have been times I was very glad to be with trained, competent people who were carrying.

But... really? You think the mall is basically unsafe? You really think there's ANY part of ANY town where you're more likely to be mugged than not to be mugged?

You're aware this is based on anecdotal interpretation of your own, and not borne out by actual crime statistics, right?

I mean, go ahead--if you're trained and safe with your weapon, it's no skin off my back if you're packing 24/7. You bought the piece, you got the license, so God bless. But I hate that you have to live with that cloud of paranoia over your head all the time.

Here are links to some of the mall shootings in my area over the last 4 years, these are separate incidences:

Hostages Safe, Man Arrested After Mall Shooting | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | News Archive

Gunman remains at large after deadly mall shooting | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

Two Southcenter Mall shooting suspects charged | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

Man gets 60 years for killing two in Southcenter parking lot | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

While shotguns are great for home defense, they can't protect you very well outside of the house. Having weapons throughout the house ready to go into action is totally overkill (unless you have immediate reason to believe otherwise) IMO. I feel when it comes to weapons having a .22 on your person 90% of the time is more effective than having a .357 mag, or .45 that was left in the car or at home because it was too big/bulky to carry.

I completely agree, I would definitely keep weight and bulkiness in mind if I were to purchase a concealed weapon.

Plan9 · 05-03-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I mean, go ahead--if you're trained and safe with your weapon, it's no skin off my back if you're packing 24/7. You bought the piece, you got the license, so God bless. But I hate that you have to live with that cloud of paranoia over your head all the time.

Perhaps such a philosophy is part of the problem. The people that are legally and morally capable of defending themselves are paranoid when they "do their gun thing." Cloud of paranoia my narrow cracker ass. The raving gummint-overthrow idiots have ruined public perception regarding those of normal, non-paranoid citizens who carry. Guns, swords, spiked clubs or sharpened sticks... the attitude is what pisses me off. But what do I know? *PTSD'd*

Society is so civil... until it is not and then you essentially place your life in the hands of a stranger that may be 15 minutes away. Turns out I'm not religious.

Blegch, enough DKin' for me. I've been in a great mood all month and I'm not gonna get all cranky over this "'ere we go uh-gin" crap.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJericho

So I have been considering purchasing a firearm for some time. I've done a lot of research, I've gone to a firing range and shot various types of handguns and in different calibers. I still need to try some rifles and shotguns. Once I buy my own house I will probably purchase a firearm (right now I have roommates and I would not feel comfortable having guns around people who are not trained to handle them).

Good man. Most avoidable issues with firearms occur from negligent use and storage practices. Keep in mind, though: a locked firearm is like an empty firearm... totally useless for defensive purposes. Just for giggles, what kind of handguns are you interested in for the purposes of this thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJericho

However one ongoing question I ask myself is to what degree would I be armed. By this I mean, I often see people who buy a gun for strictly home defense. However, I see this as somewhat of a mistake because often times violent crimes are happening out in public, such as shootings in malls, public transportation, banks, convenience stores etc.

You're only going to be as armed as much as you are willing to deal with the responsibility of carrying. Where allowed, I keep a piece in my car at all times. When I travel by car, I keep one in the car and one on my person / in the hotel room / camp site. Frankly, it's a pain the ass. I worry more about nervous soccer moms and any douchebags from the local police than I do about any potential mugger.

Disclaimer: 99% of cops are great people and real professionals. Some cops are cool about CCW. A tiny minority, however, will go gangbusters on you... treat you like a machete-wielding crackhead, confiscate your firearm, have you cuffed and curb-mounted while they figure out if your permit is valid. They think they should be the only ones with guns despite the CCW privileges afforded by law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJericho

In my mind, only having access to a weapon at home is equivalent to only having protection for half the day (if for example the average person gets home from work at 6:30 pm and leaves for work at 6:30 am). Therefore it seems logical to me that if someone does make the decision to own a firearm, that he or she carries a weapon on them as much as legally possible in a concealed or open carry configuration.

Wearing a piece (as a civilian) all the time is like wearing a condom all the time: ridiculous. You're just not going to need it at some places and it isn't worth the additional stress to carry. If you can keep a gun in your car while you're at work (hell, at your desk at work in a bag you commute with) go for it. Ensure it doesn't violate any company policies. I've found that keeping a gun close by is often better than keeping a gun on your person. You know it's there, ready to go, and can get to it quick if you need it.

Disclaimer: Fanny packs? Don't do it. Not only do they look retarded, but anybody with a brain will think "GUY WITH A GUN."

I've had my CCW for years and carry maybe half a dozen times a month (weekends) due to my status as a college student (no guns near campus) and the fact that I rarely go out to places where I can carry (establishments that serve alcohol, areas that don't recognize my permit like Maryland and DC). I'm a skinny gun and it's getting warmer out... so my carry options are rather limited based on my level of comfort. I have a 5.11 t-shirt holster or simple pocket carry for the spring/summer and use compact / subcompact guns (S&W snubnose or Keltec P32). Winter gives me a lot more options. I'm packing most of the time I go out on my motorcycle and anytime I'm staying overnight in a new place where someone may assume I'm easy pickings (but that isn't concealed carry).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJericho

Another topic that I consider is the degree to which I would arm myself in my own home. Obviously it would be a good idea to have access to gun close to the bed since a large portion of time is spend in that area every night. However, would I place a weapon on each level of the house, or perhaps each individual room?

Having weapons hidden throughout the house is a little much. One for each room is something I'd actually called paranoid. The majority of residential burglaries occur during the day: you'll be at work and a gun will do you no good. If someone is stupid enough to break in while you're in the house, it'll be much later at night and you'll either be in bed or watching TeeVee. Keeping a 12g shotgun in the bedroom is a common. I have a shotgun and pistol by my bed. Previously, I had a revolver hidden on the main floor but I ditched that practice after realizing I was never home and when I was home... I was tapping away the the keyboard, watching a DVD, or sleeping... three activities that occurred within feet of the shotgun / pistol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJericho

I know that these are decisions I would have to make for myself. And that each decision impacts which types of firearms I would purchase (possibly a subcompact pistol for concealed carry, shotgun for home defense etc).

I'd recommend purchasing a handgun first if you have any intention of engaging in concealed carry. Turns out you can't fit a Remington 870 12g in a hip holster. After the handgun, I'd recommend getting a shotgun as mentioned in various threads in Tilted Weaponry.

Investing in some type of formal pistol training outside of the lame CCW test is also a great idea.

KirStang · 05-03-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

This is wild.... I'm not pro or anti gun, I don't own one myself, but I don't have anything against them, and there have been times I was very glad to be with trained, competent people who were carrying.

But... really? You think the mall is basically unsafe? You really think there's ANY part of ANY town where you're more likely to be mugged than not to be mugged?

You're aware this is based on anecdotal interpretation of your own, and not borne out by actual crime statistics, right?

I mean, go ahead--if you're trained and safe with your weapon, it's no skin off my back if you're packing 24/7. You bought the piece, you got the license, so God bless. But I hate that you have to live with that cloud of paranoia over your head all the time.

Hmm, I'd consider it the same as remaining vigilant of your surroundings. Some places may be safe--then while you're getting in to your car in the parking lot, some idiot tries to take your car and your life.

:shrug:

Personally, since I spent the $137 for the license and $1,978 for the target practice and piece, I'm going to carry whenever I can, where I can. (Yay FL!)

Plan9 · 05-03-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

Personally, since I spent the $137 for the license and $1,978 for the target practice and piece, I'm going to carry whenever I can, where I can. (Yay FL!)

Your 10mm is broken.

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Going to the grocery store in white suburbia? Yeah right.

Famous lasts words of all too many. Complacency is what kills.

I almost always carry when I go to the grocery store or mall.

...

I concur with Samcol. Get a gun you'll actually carry instead of something you like because it shoots really well or soothes your inner caveman vibe.

A full size 1911 works for some but I'd reckon not most. I've got summer and winter carry gun preferences, but I end up carrying the S&W Airweight J-frame the most of any of 'em. It's tiny (2" barrel), lightweight (aluminum frame), and I shoot well with it. It isn't a burden to carry and thus I carry it often. A good holster is a huge part of concealed carry, but your feeling regarding the gun's "carryability" itself will determine how often you carry.

Not too many people carry wheel guns these days, but I'm thinking about getting a lightweight .357 4" for the job.

Fire · 05-03-2009, 07:43 PM

I feel that for home use, a shotgun is hard to beat, though some will disagree, and it is admittedly damn near impossible to dial a phone and hold a gun on a bad guy at the same time... as to where to put it, assuming you have no kids as an issue, then beside the bed is ideal but make sure to have a light near it to I.D. a target- as to the rest of the house, myself I sell swords and knives for a living, so there are a plethora of swords on the walls, and my house is not that large and all one level, so I tend to think I have a good to excellent chance of fighting my way to a firearm if someone kicks my door in (happened less that a block away, they were trying to rob the crack house and got a middle aged nurse instead) you might go that route, with a few bladed or blunt instruments tucked away here and there throughout the house.....

As to the why carry and where V.S. paranoia, I do part time security consulting, as well as having grown up around law enforcement, and having a cop for a business partner, so I tend to be a bit wary - simply because I have seen how bad things can suddenly, and without warning, or real cause on your part, go... and while its unlikely that it will happen to me, I am always aware that it could, and have seen too many good people hurt or killed because they believed that either A- it would not happen to them
or B- that the person who killed, raped, or maimed them would not go that THAT far, was not THAT serious, etc.... also, having a child changes a lot, as unlkie in the movies, they are not magically immune to violence, nor can a 2 year old expect to be able to run away from any fucking thing... thus as a parent, whatever it is that goes horribly wrong, I have to get in front of .......and having seen the results of violence, I want to have more than my bare hands.....

therealcat · 05-03-2009, 07:56 PM

I've been carrying about seven years now. Carrying a gun is slightly more bothersome than carrying a wallet, which is to say: it's heavier and requires a holster.

I haven't needed a gun these past few years, and sincerely hope I never will; that said™, I'd greatly prefer to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

The only truly safe places are those criminals can't drive to in owned, borrowed, or stolen cars.

Plan9 · 05-03-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealcat

Carrying a gun is slightly more bothersome than carrying a wallet, which is to say: it's heavier and requires a holster.

Yeah, that... oh, and it's a lethal weapon that is frowned upon by most of the public, law enforcement, and probably you... if you ever have to use it.

KirStang · 05-03-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Your 10mm is broken.

@$%^ stop making fun of my 10mm. It's big and it goes bang. (that's what she said)And it has a trigger disconnect. Damn trigger disconnect.

/hijack.

Plan9 · 05-03-2009, 09:08 PM

Yeah, that... and I can't hit shit with it. Haha.

ratbastid · 05-04-2009, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJericho

Here are links to some of the mall shootings in my area over the last 4 years, these are separate incidences:

Hostages Safe, Man Arrested After Mall Shooting | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | News Archive

Gunman remains at large after deadly mall shooting | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

Two Southcenter Mall shooting suspects charged | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

Man gets 60 years for killing two in Southcenter parking lot | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional[

... divided by the number of people who went to malls over the last four years = your odds of being involved in anything like this are Damn Near Zero.

This is my point. Scary stories like this make people feel unsafe, which makes people carry guns. (Which, be clear, I'm NOT saying is a bad thing. This is NOT, Crompsin, yet another here-we-go-again anti-gun rant. Really.) I just think that a rational view of the actual crime statistics would have people feel much more confident, in general.

Here's a great example: New York City. What do you think when I say that, in this context. Crime, right? Muggings, rape, etc. Law and Order episodes come to mind, all of that. Well, guess what? NYC was the city with the 614th highest crime rate in the country in 2007 (the latest year I could find). Top 500 US cities ranked by overall crime rate? NYC's not on the list. For that matter, in the first quarter of 2009, the crime rate there has dropped by nearly 14%. "Should" you still carry there? Maybe. I'm not telling you not to. But if your head is full of "Walking in NYC = being constantly at risk", then... I just don't want to have to be you, is all.

Plan9 · 05-04-2009, 05:47 AM

RatBastid: I don't do real rants... at least not political ones. I've got a lukewarm IQ at best and that doesn't really lend to such activities. Oh well.

...

Childish retort: "Statistics are great until you turn out to be that .0001%." Kinda like my buddy Sgt. Bob.

Sgt. Bob was just another guy in Afghanistan. Had gone on dozens of patrols, been in a fair amount of action. Had his truck shot up, had been RPG'd half a dozen times, etc. Made it through his first deployment in Iraq without a scratch and nine months of Afghanistan without a single bandaid. One day near the end of the deployment, he walked out his tent to go to the shower point and a mortar rounded landed right on his foot and turned it into some hot loose Hamburger Helper halfway up to the knee.

What were the odds? Absolutely tiny. Had greater odds of winning the lottery or being mugged in NYC. Infinitesimal chance. Didn't matter, it happened. Whenever I talk to him... I get the feeling that statistics don't really comfort anybody who's been the impossible minority.

All about logic and moderation and being aware of contingencies and Murphy's Law and all that MacGyver stuff:
Living your life based on statistics or turning to statistics for comfort is a little like worshiping a 2000 year old dead Jewish guy ya read about in a book.

...

I carry a fully stocked first aid kit everywhere I go. It has a lot of crazy stuff. Splints, IV bags, emergency blankets, bandages designed for gunshot wounds, tourniquets for last resort situations. It's behind the driver's seat of my car. I have it available far more often than a firearm. Ever few months I check the supplies for age and replace them as needed. Is that silly, too? I mean, I'm not a paramedic or a doctor... and I've never had to use the bag... not once... since I put it in my car in 2001, but I still carry it everywhere anyway. I figure if I use it once in 40 years... it'll have been worth the annoyance of carrying it and checking it periodically. Potentially saving somebody's life will have made it worth it.

...

And with that, I feel things that can be prevented should be prevented. Self defense shouldn't be a "well, that's tough shit" situation. The OP's questions for discussion in this thread are exactly what I'm talking about. He wonders when carrying would make sense. I do, too. If you've read what I've posted above, yeah... I'm slackin' in the paranoia department. My guns don't do a whole lot of travelin' in comparison to some of the folks here on TFP. Some weeks they just sit and gather dust. I'm a busy guy with school and being a playboy millionaire. I've never really felt that my life was in danger at any point since I've been back in the US (despite the statistics). I've never been the victim of a personal crime, never had a family member or friend robbed or assaulted...

But I keep a gun around anyway, though... statistics have shown that there is a small chance I may need one sometime in my life.

ratbastid · 05-04-2009, 06:33 AM

Yeah, and look, that's fine. As long as you don't mind toting 50lbs of "just in case" gear. I'm not telling you not to do that. If the unlikely happens, you'll be prepared and I won't. Them's the facts.

I do take issue with the "statistics = religion" point, though. Statistics tell you what has happened, and what's likely to happen. To respond with "Oh yeah, well BOB'S FOOT!" is more of a blind-faith argument, in my book. Screw looking at the bigger picture or the facts in aggregate, let me tell you about this one really really really unlucky guy, and scare you into thinking the world is scary and you've got to carry 50lbs of just-in-case.

Sorry, but I'm just not buying it. Odds are VERY good I'll never encounter any violent crime in my lifetime. I'm not going to live every moment of my life in paranoid preparation for that vanishingly unlikely eventuality. That's the choice I make, anyway. Doesn't mean I don't understand and honor your choice too.

Plan9 · 05-04-2009, 06:45 AM

Facts in aggregate, huh? So we should suggest that Chris Jericho avoid buying a firearm because he'll never need one... but if he does... he should just lay down and die? He should avoid carrying in public because some number says he'll only need it in his house? Or vice versa? I'm at a loss here.

I don't look at the 99%. 99% doesn't comfort me. I look at the 1% and go: What would happen if I was that 1%? I guess that's my flavor of religion. I use condoms even if she's on the pill and I don't carry 50 lbs of paranoia gear, unless you consider a spare tire, road flares, and a first aid kit along the lines of extraneous paranoia gear that I'll statistically never have to use.

...

Hell, you should be more prepared for crazy shit than I, anyway... you've got more to live for.

therealcat · 05-04-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Yeah, that... oh, and it's a lethal weapon that is frowned upon by most of the public, law enforcement, and probably you... if you ever have to use it.

Lethal weapons aren't frowned upon by the public or law enforcement where I live.

The one and only time I've ever needed a firearm, (to save a woman's life,) neither she nor I regretted it in any way, shape, or form.

Zeraph · 05-04-2009, 11:11 AM

Hah, this thread really took off while I was away. Well it looks like we finally disagree on something cromp. Most of that stuff is media fearmongering. Driving your car, anywhere, is literally orders of magnitude more dangerous than going into a shopping mall. So unless you avoid all roads and don't drive...I can't see how taking the time everyday to arm yourself is worth the trouble. Because make no mistake, every single thing in life carries risk. So there is *always* the question of risk vs safety/reward for every situation no matter how mundane. We risk our safety on far more on mundane things every single day than we ever do in not going armed.

For me driving a car, or smoking a cigar every now and then is worth the risk. Same thing in regards to going unarmed to most places. I'll cut out the risks where I can, but being unarmed is just not that big of a risk to warrant the energy needed to do so.

ratbastid · 05-04-2009, 11:49 AM

Cromp, you make (at least, and quite possibly more than) one very good point: all my cars have spare tires. The vast, vast majority of miles I've driven, I've not needed a spare tire, and yet I carry it around and burn gas to accelerate it and use up brake pad to decelerate it. So, okay. By my logic, you shouldn't bother with having a spare tire because it's unlikely you'll need it. Yet that's obviously bad advice.

I think this is something everyone needs to choose for themselves. I just think, four links to Bad Mall Things versus the sheer mass of humanity who go visit the mall entirely without incident... It seems just silly to me to be concerned about being attacked there--I think that being worried about that speaks to a rather unfortunate world-view. If that's your world-view and you're committed to that, well okay, but I'd at least encourage you to examine it before swallowing it. That's really my whole point here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Hell, you should be more prepared for crazy shit than I, anyway... you've got more to live for.

I didn't get what I've got to live for by spending my time and energy preparing for the worst.

dksuddeth · 05-04-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I didn't get what I've got to live for by spending my time and energy preparing for the worst.

The problem with this line of thinking is that IF the worst ever happens, you could be thinking 'why didn't I keep the spare tire in the trunk?'

ratbastid · 05-04-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

The problem with this line of thinking is that IF the worst ever happens, you could be thinking 'why didn't I keep the spare tire in the trunk?'

The question is if you want one moment of smacking yourself on the forehead (in the case of a spare tire), or a lifetime of living like doom is constantly impending.

People. Doom is not constantly impending!!!

Plan9 · 05-04-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

People. Doom is not constantly impending!!!

Hahaha... I like this. NEXT ON TFP: "Don't call me a psycho and I won't call you a pussy."

ratbastid · 05-04-2009, 04:10 PM

I won't call you a psycho. I want to be standing near you and your gun and your first aid kit when the shite goes down.

Plan9 · 05-04-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Hah, this thread really took off while I was away. Well it looks like we finally disagree on something cromp. Most ... matter how mundane. We risk our safety on far more on mundane things every single day than we ever do in not going armed.

Are you really talking to me? Doesn't seem like it based on my previous posts. Please clarify.

...

Yeaaah, I like how this thread makes me out to be a nutjob because of one tiny thing that I invest a whole four seconds of thought into a day. I wake up, shower, eat some Cheerios... get dressed. If I'm going out to school, I take my school bag. Going out for the weekend? My travel bag. Going someplace where I might want the ability to defend myself? I take a gun. It's not an epic decision. And I don't masturbate before I do it. It's 1+1, people.

I don't sit up at night worried. I don't brood. I don't peek out the window at noises. I don't run to my car after class or grocery trips or when I leave a bar. Hell, when I leave a bar... I'm usually that guy you wanna avoid in the parking lot because he's loudly singing 38 Special songs waaay off key.

"So hold on loooooslaaay... bhut dun leggo!"

I'm the devil's advocate in some of these threads or I'm the voice of moderation... either way, though... lighten the fuck up, people. Saying that I'm some kind of gun-toting fanatic prepping for Armageddon is just as stupid as me saying you're a soft naive Spoiler: "sheeple" yuppie waiting to get gang raped by government thugs and racial minorities. The issue isn't polar, so why make it such? It's that kind of childish poopoo mudslinging that gets us nowhere.

Despite attaining a certain level of expertise, firearms are such a small part of my life and really just a hobby now that I'm Joe Civilianpants. I'm tired of responsible gun ownership being blown outta proportion by people with little or no experience with them. You don't have to be a subject matter expert genius to talk policy, sure, but you do have to have a hand in the game to talk about practical application. If you don't know dick about concealed carry outside of some fat white guy's blog, go do some research instead of armchair commandoing. Makes the thread convo a lot more lively, too.

Blegch. Just because of this bullshit... I'm not going to carry for a week! I REFUSE! *gives his guns to Ratbastid* All those spare tires... yes, indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I didn't get what I've got to live for by spending my time and energy preparing for the worst.

My response above... and I can only think of one person on the board that fits that description. And it isn't me.

Martian · 05-04-2009, 04:55 PM

I think the big panty-twisting issue in this thread is that we're trying to assign some objectivity to what comes down to a value decision. Guns are not inherently bad. My problem with them (insofar as I have one) is that in the wrong hands they can do a lot of damage. Note that the wrong hands are not necessarily criminal ones. An irresponsible gun owner kills people just as dead as one with malicious intent.

I will never understand people who glorify the taking of a human life, and I make no secret of that. Perhaps it's a culture thing; maybe some people just have difficulty drawing a line between Bruce Willis fantasy and RL, as the kids are calling it these days. I do, however, understand that sometimes such actions are necessary. In a perfect world, nobody would die at the hands of another human being. Our world is not a perfect one.

The answer to the OP's question is that you should carry a gun in any situation that meets two conditions:

1) It is legal for you to do so, and
2) You feel it's necessary.

Number 2 is the sticking point. Assuming for the sake of argument that I had the right to carry a gun in public, I would never choose to do so. I don't feel that it's worth the time and energy necessary to meet my own standards of what a gun owner ought to be. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a weapon and hundreds of hours at a range learning to use it, and I don't think the miniscule chance that I might one day need said weapon makes this a necessity. So I choose not to do those things.

Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

I do view carrying a weapon as a form of paranoia. That's not necessarily a bad thing. A man (or woman) carries a gun because he's afraid of being put in a position where he's going to need it. I walk on the sidewalks because I'm afraid of getting hit by a car. I don't think all gun owners have a nuclear bunker with a 10 year supply of MRE's and a shiny collection of tinfoil hats. This is an unrealistic assessment of the situation, and translates a specific fear into a general phobia. It's not an accurate picture.

It's true that we all face risk every day with nearly every action we choose to take (or avoid, for that matter). That's only half the picture, though. We all make value decisions based on those risks. Risk vs. reward. And making a value decision is by it's very nature an individual process.

So, yeah. Everyone relax. If you don't, I'll bring my guitar into this. I do a mean Kumbayah.

Zeraph · 05-04-2009, 05:10 PM

Sorry man, only that initial, looks like we differ finally comment was made for you. The rest, i was just saying that for me personally it ain't worth the discomfort. I don't think your paranoid or a nut. Remember I was the one that said you should wear full body armor if it made you feel more comfortable

If anything I'm more paranoid than you...

Plan9 · 05-04-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Sorry man, only that initial, looks like we differ finally comment was made for you. The rest, i was just saying that for me personally it ain't worth the discomfort.

Okay, gotcha. Afraid that Wayne Crompbrady may have had to choke a bitch... with friendly intellectual point-based debate.

samcol · 05-05-2009, 12:34 PM

I'll come back when you want to take self defense a little more seriously. In the meantime I'll be resting easily knowing I'm safe.

sapiens · 05-05-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

I'll come back when you want to take self defense a little more seriously. In the meantime I'll be resting easily knowing I'm safe.

That photo belongs in the "What's on your nightstand?" thread.

KirStang · 05-05-2009, 01:50 PM

Nice. Ballistic lined bath tub huh? Just like airforce pilots have

.

Plan9 · 05-05-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

Pic

*palmface*

dksuddeth · 05-06-2009, 06:26 AM

what? where's the shottie?

The_Dunedan · 05-07-2009, 04:32 PM

I thought it was a pic of GunKid at first, but then I realized it couldn't be him...no wheelbarrow or "canned" AR .22.

Fire · 05-11-2009, 08:10 PM

is it wrong that I know the forum that pic is from.....

Plan9 · 05-11-2009, 08:15 PM

Yeah, and why am I not a member of such a place?

samcol · 05-12-2009, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire

is it wrong that I know the forum that pic is from.....

do enlighten

Fire · 05-12-2009, 08:52 PM

OOOOHHHHHH kay.... so I will explain this, but it does take a bit of a preface......

there is an online forum, that was started by some guys in St.louis, not all that far from me, as it happens, after they saw the wonderful clusterfuck that was hurricane Katrina on the t.v. 24-7 for like a week..... In their musings, they discovered they had between all of them two common ideas...

1- they were all interested in disaster preparedness, but were turned off by most of the "hardcore survivalist websites" either due to political agenda, or just the overload of doom and gloom....

2- they all liked zombie movies a lot...

at this point someone mentioned that if someone could survive a zombie movie, they were set for just about anything...... a short time later, Zombie Squad was born....

they are a surprisingly informative website about disaster prep and survival, that uses "surviving the zombie apocalypse " as a metaphor for all things survival.... granted, due to this a lot of the mods time seems to be spent weeding out mall ninjas and complete idiots, but the people who stick around are quite useful sources for info, and tend not to be the "scary survivalist types" as an added bonus.... the site does not allow any discussion of religion, or politics, which also makes it a bet more "friendly" than the other survival sites I have looked at....

the pick came from one of their off topic threads about posting various members "i am legend " photos........

Plan9 · 05-12-2009, 09:01 PM

Zombie Squad? As in ZS tattoo? Aaah, gotcha. Yeah, I've seen that stuff before. Great concept.

05-02-2009, 06:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Deciding on when and where to be armed. So I have been considering purchasing a firearm for some time. I've done a lot of research, I've gone to a firing range and shot various types of handguns and in different calibers. I still need to try some rifles and shotguns. Once I buy my own house I will probably purchase a firearm (right now I have roommates and I would not feel comfortable having guns around people who are not trained to handle them). However one ongoing question I ask myself is to what degree would I be armed. By this I mean, I often see people who buy a gun for strictly home defense. However, I see this as somewhat of a mistake because often times violent crimes are happening out in public, such as shootings in malls, public transportation, banks, convenience stores etc. In my mind, only having access to a weapon at home is equivalent to only having protection for half the day (if for example the average person gets home from work at 6:30 pm and leaves for work at 6:30 am). Therefore it seems logical to me that if someone does make the decision to own a firearm, that he or she carries a weapon on them as much as legally possible in a concealed or open carry configuration. Another topic that I consider is the degree to which I would arm myself in my own home. Obviously it would be a good idea to have access to gun close to the bed since a large portion of time is spend in that area every night. However, would I place a weapon on each level of the house, or perhaps each individual room? I know that these are decisions I would have to make for myself. And that each decision impacts which types of firearms I would purchase (possibly a subcompact pistol for concealed carry, shotgun for home defense etc). I would appreciate any input you may have. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-03-2009, 04:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	If you want a good gun to do it all start with a handgun and work from there. Add maybe a shotgun to keep loaded somewhere in your house in addition to your handgun that is on your nightstand while you sleep. While shotguns are great for home defense, they can't protect you very well outside of the house. Having weapons throughout the house ready to go into action is totally overkill (unless you have immediate reason to believe otherwise) IMO. I feel when it comes to weapons having a .22 on your person 90% of the time is more effective than having a .357 mag, or .45 that was left in the car or at home because it was too big/bulky to carry. Do some research and pick the best weapon for you. You will likely learn the limitations of the platform you selected and want to buy more weapons to fill the void. Then it only goes downhill from there lol. __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

05-03-2009, 07:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	I feel that for home use, a shotgun is hard to beat, though some will disagree, and it is admittedly damn near impossible to dial a phone and hold a gun on a bad guy at the same time... as to where to put it, assuming you have no kids as an issue, then beside the bed is ideal but make sure to have a light near it to I.D. a target- as to the rest of the house, myself I sell swords and knives for a living, so there are a plethora of swords on the walls, and my house is not that large and all one level, so I tend to think I have a good to excellent chance of fighting my way to a firearm if someone kicks my door in (happened less that a block away, they were trying to rob the crack house and got a middle aged nurse instead) you might go that route, with a few bladed or blunt instruments tucked away here and there throughout the house..... As to the why carry and where V.S. paranoia, I do part time security consulting, as well as having grown up around law enforcement, and having a cop for a business partner, so I tend to be a bit wary - simply because I have seen how bad things can suddenly, and without warning, or real cause on your part, go... and while its unlikely that it will happen to me, I am always aware that it could, and have seen too many good people hurt or killed because they believed that either A- it would not happen to them or B- that the person who killed, raped, or maimed them would not go that THAT far, was not THAT serious, etc.... also, having a child changes a lot, as unlkie in the movies, they are not magically immune to violence, nor can a 2 year old expect to be able to run away from any fucking thing... thus as a parent, whatever it is that goes horribly wrong, I have to get in front of .......and having seen the results of violence, I want to have more than my bare hands..... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

05-03-2009, 09:08 PM	#14 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Yeah, that... and I can't hit shit with it. Haha. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

05-04-2009, 05:47 AM	#16 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	RatBastid: I don't do real rants... at least not political ones. I've got a lukewarm IQ at best and that doesn't really lend to such activities. Oh well. ... Childish retort: "Statistics are great until you turn out to be that .0001%." Kinda like my buddy Sgt. Bob. Sgt. Bob was just another guy in Afghanistan. Had gone on dozens of patrols, been in a fair amount of action. Had his truck shot up, had been RPG'd half a dozen times, etc. Made it through his first deployment in Iraq without a scratch and nine months of Afghanistan without a single bandaid. One day near the end of the deployment, he walked out his tent to go to the shower point and a mortar rounded landed right on his foot and turned it into some hot loose Hamburger Helper halfway up to the knee. What were the odds? Absolutely tiny. Had greater odds of winning the lottery or being mugged in NYC. Infinitesimal chance. Didn't matter, it happened. Whenever I talk to him... I get the feeling that statistics don't really comfort anybody who's been the impossible minority. All about logic and moderation and being aware of contingencies and Murphy's Law and all that MacGyver stuff: Living your life based on statistics or turning to statistics for comfort is a little like worshiping a 2000 year old dead Jewish guy ya read about in a book. ... I carry a fully stocked first aid kit everywhere I go. It has a lot of crazy stuff. Splints, IV bags, emergency blankets, bandages designed for gunshot wounds, tourniquets for last resort situations. It's behind the driver's seat of my car. I have it available far more often than a firearm. Ever few months I check the supplies for age and replace them as needed. Is that silly, too? I mean, I'm not a paramedic or a doctor... and I've never had to use the bag... not once... since I put it in my car in 2001, but I still carry it everywhere anyway. I figure if I use it once in 40 years... it'll have been worth the annoyance of carrying it and checking it periodically. Potentially saving somebody's life will have made it worth it. ... And with that, I feel things that can be prevented should be prevented. Self defense shouldn't be a "well, that's tough shit" situation. The OP's questions for discussion in this thread are exactly what I'm talking about. He wonders when carrying would make sense. I do, too. If you've read what I've posted above, yeah... I'm slackin' in the paranoia department. My guns don't do a whole lot of travelin' in comparison to some of the folks here on TFP. Some weeks they just sit and gather dust. I'm a busy guy with school and being a playboy millionaire. I've never really felt that my life was in danger at any point since I've been back in the US (despite the statistics). I've never been the victim of a personal crime, never had a family member or friend robbed or assaulted... But I keep a gun around anyway, though... statistics have shown that there is a small chance I may need one sometime in my life. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 05-04-2009 at 06:30 AM..

05-02-2009, 07:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Personally I am of the opinion that most places are not worth CC. Schools, airports, government buildings, bars...a lot of places you can't or shouldn't be carrying anyway. And the rest are probably safe enough that situational awareness will get you a lot more than a gun would. If you know you'll be going to a rough part of town where muggings and armed robbery are common, then definitely go for it. Going to the grocery store in white suburbia? Yeah right. As far as multiple guns in different parts of the house, it really just depends on how safe/paranoid you want to be. If you live in a 2 story house, then one on each floor would be good. But the more you add the less bang for you buck you're going to get so to speak. Also, if you ever have kids over, then no. But if you have spare cash, and no kids, then why not? I'd get 2 or 3 and stash them in strategic places around the house. Also, try to think where you spend most of your time. Personally I'd go for something in the bedroom, and the living room/where you watch tv or use the computer a lot and one in my car (if I had the cash).

05-03-2009, 05:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	This is wild.... I'm not pro or anti gun, I don't own one myself, but I don't have anything against them, and there have been times I was very glad to be with trained, competent people who were carrying. But... really? You think the mall is basically unsafe? You really think there's ANY part of ANY town where you're more likely to be mugged than not to be mugged? You're aware this is based on anecdotal interpretation of your own, and not borne out by actual crime statistics, right? I mean, go ahead--if you're trained and safe with your weapon, it's no skin off my back if you're packing 24/7. You bought the piece, you got the license, so God bless. But I hate that you have to live with that cloud of paranoia over your head all the time.

05-03-2009, 07:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
therealcat Upright	I've been carrying about seven years now. Carrying a gun is slightly more bothersome than carrying a wallet, which is to say: it's heavier and requires a holster. I haven't needed a gun these past few years, and sincerely hope I never will; that said™, I'd greatly prefer to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. The only truly safe places are those criminals can't drive to in owned, borrowed, or stolen cars.

05-04-2009, 06:33 AM	#17 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Yeah, and look, that's fine. As long as you don't mind toting 50lbs of "just in case" gear. I'm not telling you not to do that. If the unlikely happens, you'll be prepared and I won't. Them's the facts. I do take issue with the "statistics = religion" point, though. Statistics tell you what has happened, and what's likely to happen. To respond with "Oh yeah, well BOB'S FOOT!" is more of a blind-faith argument, in my book. Screw looking at the bigger picture or the facts in aggregate, let me tell you about this one really really really unlucky guy, and scare you into thinking the world is scary and you've got to carry 50lbs of just-in-case. Sorry, but I'm just not buying it. Odds are VERY good I'll never encounter any violent crime in my lifetime. I'm not going to live every moment of my life in paranoid preparation for that vanishingly unlikely eventuality. That's the choice I make, anyway. Doesn't mean I don't understand and honor your choice too.

05-04-2009, 06:45 AM	#18 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Facts in aggregate, huh? So we should suggest that Chris Jericho avoid buying a firearm because he'll never need one... but if he does... he should just lay down and die? He should avoid carrying in public because some number says he'll only need it in his house? Or vice versa? I'm at a loss here. I don't look at the 99%. 99% doesn't comfort me. I look at the 1% and go: What would happen if I was that 1%? I guess that's my flavor of religion. I use condoms even if she's on the pill and I don't carry 50 lbs of paranoia gear, unless you consider a spare tire, road flares, and a first aid kit along the lines of extraneous paranoia gear that I'll statistically never have to use. ... Hell, you should be more prepared for crazy shit than I, anyway... you've got more to live for. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 05-04-2009 at 06:50 AM..

05-04-2009, 11:11 AM	#20 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Hah, this thread really took off while I was away. Well it looks like we finally disagree on something cromp. Most of that stuff is media fearmongering. Driving your car, anywhere, is literally orders of magnitude more dangerous than going into a shopping mall. So unless you avoid all roads and don't drive...I can't see how taking the time everyday to arm yourself is worth the trouble. Because make no mistake, every single thing in life carries risk. So there is always the question of risk vs safety/reward for every situation no matter how mundane. We risk our safety on far more on mundane things every single day than we ever do in not going armed. For me driving a car, or smoking a cigar every now and then is worth the risk. Same thing in regards to going unarmed to most places. I'll cut out the risks where I can, but being unarmed is just not that big of a risk to warrant the energy needed to do so.

05-04-2009, 04:10 PM	#25 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I won't call you a psycho. I want to be standing near you and your gun and your first aid kit when the shite goes down.

05-04-2009, 04:55 PM	#27 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	I think the big panty-twisting issue in this thread is that we're trying to assign some objectivity to what comes down to a value decision. Guns are not inherently bad. My problem with them (insofar as I have one) is that in the wrong hands they can do a lot of damage. Note that the wrong hands are not necessarily criminal ones. An irresponsible gun owner kills people just as dead as one with malicious intent. I will never understand people who glorify the taking of a human life, and I make no secret of that. Perhaps it's a culture thing; maybe some people just have difficulty drawing a line between Bruce Willis fantasy and RL, as the kids are calling it these days. I do, however, understand that sometimes such actions are necessary. In a perfect world, nobody would die at the hands of another human being. Our world is not a perfect one. The answer to the OP's question is that you should carry a gun in any situation that meets two conditions: 1) It is legal for you to do so, and 2) You feel it's necessary. Number 2 is the sticking point. Assuming for the sake of argument that I had the right to carry a gun in public, I would never choose to do so. I don't feel that it's worth the time and energy necessary to meet my own standards of what a gun owner ought to be. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a weapon and hundreds of hours at a range learning to use it, and I don't think the miniscule chance that I might one day need said weapon makes this a necessity. So I choose not to do those things. Your mileage, as they say, may vary. I do view carrying a weapon as a form of paranoia. That's not necessarily a bad thing. A man (or woman) carries a gun because he's afraid of being put in a position where he's going to need it. I walk on the sidewalks because I'm afraid of getting hit by a car. I don't think all gun owners have a nuclear bunker with a 10 year supply of MRE's and a shiny collection of tinfoil hats. This is an unrealistic assessment of the situation, and translates a specific fear into a general phobia. It's not an accurate picture. It's true that we all face risk every day with nearly every action we choose to take (or avoid, for that matter). That's only half the picture, though. We all make value decisions based on those risks. Risk vs. reward. And making a value decision is by it's very nature an individual process. So, yeah. Everyone relax. If you don't, I'll bring my guitar into this. I do a mean Kumbayah. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

05-04-2009, 05:10 PM	#28 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Sorry man, only that initial, looks like we differ finally comment was made for you. The rest, i was just saying that for me personally it ain't worth the discomfort. I don't think your paranoid or a nut. Remember I was the one that said you should wear full body armor if it made you feel more comfortable If anything I'm more paranoid than you...

05-05-2009, 12:34 PM	#30 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	I'll come back when you want to take self defense a little more seriously. In the meantime I'll be resting easily knowing I'm safe. __________________ It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

05-05-2009, 01:50 PM	#32 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	Nice. Ballistic lined bath tub huh? Just like airforce pilots have .

05-06-2009, 06:26 AM	#34 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	what? where's the shottie? __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

05-07-2009, 04:32 PM	#35 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	I thought it was a pic of GunKid at first, but then I realized it couldn't be him...no wheelbarrow or "canned" AR .22.

05-11-2009, 08:10 PM	#36 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	is it wrong that I know the forum that pic is from..... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

05-11-2009, 08:15 PM	#37 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Yeah, and why am I not a member of such a place? __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

05-12-2009, 08:52 PM	#39 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	OOOOHHHHHH kay.... so I will explain this, but it does take a bit of a preface...... there is an online forum, that was started by some guys in St.louis, not all that far from me, as it happens, after they saw the wonderful clusterfuck that was hurricane Katrina on the t.v. 24-7 for like a week..... In their musings, they discovered they had between all of them two common ideas... 1- they were all interested in disaster preparedness, but were turned off by most of the "hardcore survivalist websites" either due to political agenda, or just the overload of doom and gloom.... 2- they all liked zombie movies a lot... at this point someone mentioned that if someone could survive a zombie movie, they were set for just about anything...... a short time later, Zombie Squad was born.... they are a surprisingly informative website about disaster prep and survival, that uses "surviving the zombie apocalypse " as a metaphor for all things survival.... granted, due to this a lot of the mods time seems to be spent weeding out mall ninjas and complete idiots, but the people who stick around are quite useful sources for info, and tend not to be the "scary survivalist types" as an added bonus.... the site does not allow any discussion of religion, or politics, which also makes it a bet more "friendly" than the other survival sites I have looked at.... the pick came from one of their off topic threads about posting various members "i am legend " photos........ __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

05-12-2009, 09:01 PM	#40 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Zombie Squad? As in ZS tattoo? Aaah, gotcha. Yeah, I've seen that stuff before. Great concept. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."