Zeraph

So what's your bubble's radius? Toward strangers I mean, not in the social sense of smelling your friend's bad breath.

Me, I have real problems when a stranger stands too close. Anything within my arm's reach annoys me and puts me on alert. Then again I'm a tall skinny guy and keeping distance is tactically important if/when I need to defend myself. If I'm in a line, I tend to stand askew, so I can see the people behind me in peripheral vision.

How does your bubble's radius change, if say you're carrying?

FuglyStick

Arm's length doesn't bother me. Closer in a crowded environment doesn't bother me. Don't lean into me to reach across the bar when I'm sitting at it, though, or I'll elbow you in your sack. Chicks with big boobs get a pass.

And I don't carry.

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MSD

I take the train, so if I wasn't comfortable with people pressed against me on all sides, I would have had a nervous breakdown by now.

Charlatan

It's all in the context. In a crowded bar or on public transit I have no trouble with proximity. But when there is a lot of space to be had and someone is closer than forearm distance (the distance between your elbow and tips of your fingers) that's just uncomfortable.

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samcol

This.

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inBOIL

+1 for the cubit rule.

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samcol

I guess I didn't see the last line. If I'm carrying my bubble radius becomes much smaller. Touching distance is never cool unless it's a chick or an extremely crowded place like a concert though(which I don't carry during those or crowded bars anyway).

If I'm not carrying, I feel like I have to keep the bubble much bigger in order to escape possible situations that might arise. Carrying gives me more options period.

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Plan9

I'm just as paranoid as every other guy that's carried an AR for Uncle Sam in a foreign land. I like distance unless it's a friendly.

...

Boozin' and most concealed carry laws: Can't carry in a bar anyway, guys. Least not legally according to what I've read. Unlawful to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol in a sit down fashion. Also illegal to drink and concealed carry. Why combine the two anyway? Irresponsible.

...

The closer someone is (under 15 feet), the less likely I am to go for my concealed carry piece... it would be quicker to go hands on with someone than to dig for my gun and get caught up in a dangerous muzzle-goes-where? wrestling match. I'm not a ninja, but I can repeatedly kick well above my head at 6'1" and that gives me plenty of options for striking while defending my vital areas (torso, head) with my arms. A good sidekick to the ribs keeps most charging idjits at bay. It'll also keep you from filling out police paperwork.

All bets are off if the attacker is brandishing a knife or gun (lethal weapons)... I'm diving for cover and/or distance and putting two .38s center mass.

Jackie Chan... I am not.

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Whatever you can carry.

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SSJTWIZTA

if you're a stranger even an arms length is too close. i like a good 5 feet or so.

i've seen too much fucked up shit in my life get comfortable around strangers. i'm usually on my toes in situations i find uncomfortable, which is pretty much anytime im in public.

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Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
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Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
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samcol

I've done it in Indiana before. There's no laws against it. Only like 2 beers with dinner though, not getting hammered.

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Zeraph

That's interesting. For me it becomes a lot bigger if its one of the rare occasions I'm carrying. I feel like the closer they get, the more likely they might grab *my* gun.


What's the cubit rule?

Plan9

Huh. Perhaps it is just the east coast. My "Concealed Carry in the 50 States" book is slightly dated.

Regardless, mixing alcohol and firearms is never a good idea... even if it's "just two with dinner." It ruins your ability to stand up in court and say you were the picture of sobriety when you skinned your .45 and gave some dude another set of nostrils at nipple level.

I don't drink and carry. It's illegal in [my location] and foolish everywhere else.

"The measurement from the elbow to the tip or the middle finger used in ancient times."

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

DC metro during rush hour = Sardines. But that's to be expected.

Walking around in Baltimore, if some guy comes within arms length, I usually perk up and observe, just in case. Especially if the person looks shady (Muscular, ill dressed youth). C

Plan9

They shouldn't see your gun until it is deployed. It should be a big surprise when you draw. Being comfortable with your manner of carry is crucial for this: speed = confidence.

While you're deploying your gun in a situation where you have 21 feet or less, you should be in a posture so as to prevent any scrappin' / muzzle-goes-where? wrestling match. There are various schools of thought on how this is done. I prefer keeping / making distance between myself and the attacker.

...

Should somebody be up in my face when I'm drawing, I have a couple of options:

- Push the gun back into the holster and attempt the karate thing, keeping the gun out of the picture. Don't involve a gun in a situation where you aren't willing to kill someone.

- Spread feet, draw the piece and tilt it forward at waist level, leaning my torso back while pushing at the attacker with the non-firing hand at shoulder level and firing. This rocking maneuver is quick but leaves you off balance, is taught to police officers in some areas (?).

- Spread feet, crouch slightly, fold my non-firing arm so that my elbow is pointing toward the attacker and that hand is on firing-side shoulder pocket, draw the piece, extend my firing arm straight and place the muzzle past my pointed elbow, firing. This serves as a bad guy bumper, preventing the piece from being knocked aside. It isn't a bad defensive posture as it anchors the gun against something solid.

...

There are an endless array of ways to do this... some are more sound than others but success ultimately determines usefulness. Key to success is being confident and fast.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Zeraph

They have to see it because I don't have a CCW permit The only time I carry is when going to the shooting range and that's because I live in a state with no laws against open carry and go to a (strange?) shooting range with odd rules (if you're shooting a pistol it has to be carried holstered, openly).

Still good info for this thread though.

Although I think even if I was carrying concealed I'd still feel this way. If some guy tackles me I'd be worried he'd feel the gun and grab it. Same way when I carry a concealed knife. Maybe it's just my paranoia. I also feel slightly more responsible for my safety and those around me.

samcol

I guess you could consider it foolish, but there isn't exactly a rampage of ccw holders shooting people up in Indiana bars. Alcohol doesn't just give someone 'refer madness' like in the movies.

It was a good idea to skin the dude with my .45 regardless if I was drinking or not. If it was a bad idea then the consequences should be realized by a jury of my peers.

If I go into a bar with the mindset of getting too drunk to drive I'm not going to be carrying or driving. However, if I can operate a vehicle legally I think it's reasonable to have a sidearm that will probably never be pulled anyway.

I made a dude who had a gun on him at the bar and never even said anything. It was still never a threat to me. He even noticed my table recognizing his weapon.

My roommate is a consignment officer and he told me about some of the parties police and government officials have. Needless to say 70% of them are carrying and getting drunk at the same time.

I guess my point is I've been carrying for 3 years, and I just don't see how carrying responsibly in a bar is any different than other places. It just is not a problem at all where I live. Plus, some of the packed bars check for weapons anyway around here.

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Zeraph

Personally I'm with Cromp on this one. Is it acceptable 'on paper'/in theory to carry in bars? Sure. If the world was perfect we should be able to safely. But even with all the stuff you said samcol your ability to shoot accurately, even if you're judgment is the same, will be hindered. That combined with legalities, and it's just too dangerous. Yeah, a jury should be smart, blah blah blah, but most of the time they aren't, and nor is your fellow man. It sounds like you don't have proper respect for Murphy's law.

Plan9

Odd, every year thousands of people figure it's okay to operate a motor vehicle after drinking "a few." I assert that the decision making process involved in operating a firearm for defense is far more dangerous. Personal responsibility to yourself and others. Perhaps this is why such laws against booze+guns are on the books in many states. Dunno, maybe I'm a dried up old granny, but I like it that way. Abstinence means booze is never a factor in a CCW shoot and that only serves to bolster your argument that much more in court where The Man is likely to make you out to be a gun-toting vigilante (outside DC).

Hah, I'm not referring to silly drug scares or the demon that is booze, just common sense. I drink my fair share, but when I do? The CCW guns stay locked up in the safe. I trust a jury of my peers as much as I trust people I may have to pull a .38 on in a parking lot at night: not a heckuva whole lot.

How does practice justify stupidity? Cops should know better. They see the effects of booze on judgment all the time.

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"You should not drink... and bake."

Xerxys

I love the community channel!!!