Plan9

I concur. There is no reason to have multiple ammunition types in a fixed magazine semi-auto weapon where one round per target is assumed. It would only lead to unexpected results like putting a sabot slug through a bad guy's sternum as well as your neighbor's house when you had expected buckshot to result from your trigger squeeze. "Ooops!"

The primary limitations of the shotgun slug (typically solid or sabot) is two fold: the inherent inaccuracy of a such a hard-kicking, heavy projectile launched from a (typically) 18"/20" cylinder bore barrel and the lack of adequate sights with which to assist in aiming that projectile. Even with "ghost rings," you're not hitting anything at XX yards in a stressful night time home defense encounter and why you would ever need to do such is beyond me.

Only "slug" round I would worry about loading is one of those less-lethal beanbags.

I use Sellier & Bellot rubber buckshot because it is less of a ricochet and penetration hazard and perhaps can buy me some help in court should I need to defend my choice of action.

I keep the tube loaded with the rubber buckshot and keep regular buckshot on the stock.

As a good Boy Scout (TM), I wouldn't carry only a shotgun with me to investigate something bumping in the night. My immediate grab would be a flashlight and a sidearm followed by the cell phone and the shotgun.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

I dont agree with using rubber buckshot in a defensive shotgun. If your life is not in danger in the process of a home invasion, you shouldnt be shooting. Take up a defensive position and call the police. If your life is threatened then you want your weapon to be as effective as possible.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

(Crompsin is forced to defend himself against Walter's verbal assaults with 12 gauge rubber buckshot)

Come by the barn, brother... we can test the effectiveness. It isn't pepper spray, it's 12 gauge.

They call it "less lethal" because it is less likely to kill someone. At short ranges, who knows? I certainly wouldn't wanna take one at anything less than an unrealistic 50 feet (warnings suggest that less than 50' is the "less than" less lethal range).

...

If my life is threatened... I want to be able to exercise a variety of intelligent options instead of simply using the George W. Bush "a sledgehammer is a good flyswatter" tactical model. I do not make PBJ sandwiches with a machete, I do not wipe my ass with hospital bedsheets "just to be sure." I am not Blaine from Predator nor will I be loading Federal 1 ounce rifled slugs into my Cobray/Demars Streetsweeper and laying it next to my teddy bear and the sat phone I have set up to call DK in the event, post-incident, I feel like saying, "Dude, you were right! They ARE out to get us!" before I contact my attorney and the cops show up to cuff me.

Instead, I keep the "sissy" buckshot in the tube and a full load of Federal 00 on the stock. All it takes is rack, dump, and ejection port feed of a "red 'n deadly" to replace the "orange 'n slappy." I practice this. I like Mossberg's slide release location better, but the two guns I have set up for this are Remington-style.

'Course, if somebody really scares me... I'm liable to sling the shotgun and go for the USP on my hip and see how many Hydrashoks it requires to persuade someone to stop being a silly felon in my living room. See, I have these old Trijicons I wanna use before they burn out.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

Eh. Im still not sold on the idea but then again, Im not the one carrying it. Whatever works for you, bro.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

I understand. It has been proven several times that I'm a moron.

I don't let it get me down, though. I'm surrounded by them in college.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

Ha, Im definitely not calling you a moron. Your basic load seems well thought out to suit your given situation. My situation is a bit different. I dont trust my sausage fingers enough to be able to quickly switch from rubber buckshot to 00 steel buckshot under stress, let alone keep track of what type of round is where.

I rock a semi-auto Benelli with 2 3/4 double ought and a "modified" choke. Ive never had a jam with the load Im using but I simulate them at the range so I can practice clearing them. Its a pretty basic set up that works for a meathead like myself. The only add ons are a simple sling, side saddle that Ive decided to keep and an oversized bolt knob that makes fixing problems easier.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

Say what? Steel buckshot?

...

"Wrong ammo in the chamber / tube" drill I use for the Remington 870.

0. Get behind a position that will mask your profile (don't advertise with the gun while fumbling). Concealment required, cover preferred, if neither... take a knee.

1. Suddenly determine the ammo in the chamber and mag tube isn't appropriate for the target at hand. Release firing hand from pistol grip and depress the slide release in front of the trigger guard with the firing hand (usually palm in a backwards sweep).

2. Move the firing hand up and back to cover the ejection port with palm, rotate the gun at an angle to engage gravity's help with the support hand, jack the slide back with the buttstock against your body (I use my left hip). You should now have two unwanted rounds sitting in your firing hand. Pocket ejected rounds or leave on ground. Since both rounds are unfired and relatively smooth, they should fall out without issue. If not, a quick shake will dump 'em. Keep the muzzle upwards during this activity or you may accidentally chamber one of the floating unwanted rounds (which would jam the gun if you tried to stuff another one in the ejection port later).

3. Put the buttstock where it sits on hip or wherever is appropriate to engage the help of gravity in loading. Not necessarily upright, but so the ejection port is at 4 o'clock. This will allow for a natural feed motion as your hand retrieves the desired ammo from the stock, side saddle or pouch.

4. Go for appropriate ammo from buttstock / pouch / side saddle / clenched teeth, laying desired shell with the brass end to the "karate chop" bottom side of the hand, business end towards trigger finger knuckle, fingers and thumbs extended and joined but curved into a tight "tiger paw" to prevent the round from sliding around.

5. Slap round into upright ejection port via "bitch-owes-me-money" method. This means hitting the round into the ejection port so the ejection port is entirely covered by human hand meat for a moment. I've found finger-cradling it in may lead to fumbling like it (or bouncing it off the upturned feed fork if your gun does this). This works pretty well. Because you're using your whole hand and making contact with the ejection port like the lid on a Tupperware, if you don't have the round perfectly aligned, a simple direction-appropriate swiping motion will get the round in the hole. Finger methods aren't as reliable, IMO.

6. Regain control of pistol grip, push slide forward, ensuring everything feeds smoothly, shoulder the weapon.

7. Adjust black stripe over your eyes.

8. Engage target.

Hope the above made sense.

You could also just stuff your thumb up against the next round in the tube, rack the slide and get the same effect. Empty chamber and empty fork with tube still loaded. I use this method for the "tube loaded chamber empty" situation where I already know what I've got in the chamber isn't what I wanna blast somebody with at the moment: home invasion of zombies warrants more than rubber buckshot.

Enough babbling. Zillion ways to do shotgun load drills. I'm an unskilled n00b here... so take it for what it's worth.

...

Benelli? Nice! Oversized bolt knob is crucial on the Benelli. I was thinking about getting a M1 Super 90 for 3 gun (Rock River AR and USP).

Too bad that the gun grab fever is going on and a M1 is going for more than my soul at this moment.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

telekinetic

What's wrong with racking the pump once (assuming you haven't fired and your tube is at full capacity) to eject the currently chambered round and chamber the next (thus 'making space'), popping the desired round into the magazine from below ala on-the-fly reload, and repeating to load the newly inserted round? This has the benefit of never leaving you with a round out of the chamber and avoids all the shaking and slapping which sounds rather fiddly.

I'm not familiar with Remingtons, though, so this may only be easier with Mossberg pumps.

__________________
twisted no more

Plan9

Another method from the books. Like I said, zillion ways to do it. The above method figures you already have the tube topped off (important with a Remington since you only have as many total shots as you have fingers) and that the slide is already back to eject the unwanted round... so why push it forward and then have to cycle the whole action again? Economy of motion. Some find it easier to put a round in the ejection port than trying to push it into the mag tube during a stressful "guy in your house" scenario.

The method you've described works just as well. It's similar to the "thumb over the round in the mag tube, rack the slide to get an empty fork and chamber, load round into ejection port" method.

If you have a Mossberg 500 or 590 with a long mag tube, you can just leave the mag short one round at all times for a "next round in tube is whatever I want" opportunity.

All of these methods would work equally well with Mossberg, Remington, or Winchester pumps. Winchester pumps have the advantage of being fast as hell, too.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

telekinetic

I was going to mention that too, as it's an option I heavily considered (as I have the extended mag).

I'm pretty new to the practicalities of shotgun home defense which is why I asked if there was a reason your method was strictly superior in some way I wasn't seeing.

__________________
twisted no more

Walt

Yeah, thats my bad. Dont ask me where I got "steel" from.

I picked up my M1 Super 90 years ago when they were a whole lot cheaper. If I remember correctly, I only payed about $650. Great weapon, though the stock is a bit long - even for my 6'4 ass. I looked around and couldnt find anyone making any aftermarket stocks for it so I just chopped off 2 inches and refit the recoil pad. Its ugly as sin but it works.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

Never said anything about superiority in techniques. There is no superior for this particular drill, just different methods that get the same job done. There is no "superior" way... as long as it is safe and uses common sense.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Draconis

Thanks once again for all the great advice.
Just a few clarifying points:
1) I'm all but test-driven on the subject of willingness to kill someone who enters my domicile with the intention of causing injury or death to me, my guitars, or whatever barfly happens to be passed out next to me.
2) Still haven't gotten around to getting my beautiful death machine, but I think I've narrowed her down to this sweet piece of tacti-black steel http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossb.../NEW/50580.jpg
3) Recently signed on to do my PhD in Econ, so it looks like 4-5 more years in less than hospitable territory. The plus side of this is I get a little extra cash (some of which will be going towards a folding stock and ghost ring for the soon-to-be-purchased black beauty) on account of a fellowship, so that means finally moving some place that'll let me have a dog (I don't have the room for a Tosa up here but I reckon anything that's a 60-80 pound ball of unconditional love, teeth and meaner-than-snake-spit growl ought do the trick).
4) Preempting this one: Yes, I know. Train dog to stay behind gun.
5) Recently got so shoot my buddy's 1911, AR15 and snub-nose .45. The AR15 was fun and all, but can't really see myself having it be my go-to gun for close quarters. The snub-nose is a straight murder weapon, but I'm not exactly trying to pull a Michael Corleone on anybody. Same goes for the 1911. Long story short, I tried the hand gun route (had been a while admittedly) and decided shotgun was my ticket.

I like the idea of having slugs/taser/rubber shells on the side, particularly the taser one (for no other reason than to get an awesome light show out of a terrible situation). Oh, and on a tactics note, 4 rooms plus one bathroom, all roughly10x12 feet, with a 5x2 foot corridor. Usually keep a light blocking blanket over the entrance to the living room (read: stadium style seating ghetto omniplex), and there's no entrance point other than the front door. The only time my place was broken in to, it was done through the back window in the kitchen. Just dumb kids, I figure, since they didn't take anything. So basically, anything being shot at at this juncture will be shot at very close range, since I have a tiny apartment.

Side note: A buddy (not the one with the 1911, etc.) decided to chime in on my quandry when he overheard me talking about it with a couple folks. His addition, "Couldn't you get like an ammo drum thing for a shotgun? Like that automatic one. You should see if they sell those." No damnit, I don't think they sell A12's to the general public. But is he even at all, possibly, maybe right about the legality of having a drum-fed shotgun. I kind of feel stupid even second guessing my thought of "hell nah, that can't be legal" but it wouldn't be the first time I've felt stupid.

Crap, way over my page limit on this one.

Thanks again.

__________________
STEVE MCKENNA!

KirStang

Just acquired a Mossy 500 today. KICKASS!

Plan9

Lawyers and shotguns? Dangerous.
-----Added 19/12/2008 at 08 : 01 : 54-----
Shotguns without stocks work great... in video games. Make sure you get a good folding stock. I recommend the sliding M4-style stock.

Have you considered the FN TPS? FN Tactical Police Shotgun

-----Added 19/12/2008 at 08 : 13 : 05-----
Atchisson AA12s aren't available to the "general public" from what I've researched, but you can get a Cobray Streetsweeper (in some some states) if you want a two-handed ghetto blaster (thing is an oversized 12 gauge revolver). You could also waste your money on a bizarre piece like the USAS-12. The drum mag modification kits for Mossberg and Remington are "cool" but are way too expensive, overkill for most people's needs and the reliability is questionable. Such weapons are like Chevy Corvettes: fun for a sunny weekend, not for real work.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

Im inclined to agree with Crompsin. The pistol grips have a certain "cool" factor but they are downright unpleasant to shoot. Also, its hard to do any kind of aimed shooting - you dont want to be shooting from the hip in a real world situation.

The only time I have ever seen a serious shooter rock a pistol grip shotgun is when the shotgun was used as a breaching tool, rather than a primary weapon. If you have a moment, check out the stocks made by Knoxx. From what Ive heard, they are fantastic at reducing recoil AND cutting down on the overall length of the weapon, making it easier to handle quickly and effectively. Knoxx Recoil Solutions

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Tully Mars

Reload your own shells? I used to have a Lee autoloader for my hand guns. Dies for .38, .357 and 9mm. Kind of fun to play around with different powders. Had a friend who had a rifle model. It didn't seem to have very good QC. Each shell seemed to be different. Trying to hit something at several hundred yards with shells that vary doesn't work well at all.

And you ass is 6'4? How large is the rest of you? You must be a freaking giant. Why would you even need a shotgun?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Plan9

The point I was making to Walter's "steel buckshot" comment was that steel rounds are not used in "tactical" shotguns because steel isn't well-suited for "neutralizing humans" in the way that lead is. There is such pellet size as "steel buckshot" as far as I've seen.

Why? Steel is lightweight, harder (less give during barrel travel, issues with effects on target... deflect vs. flattening), generally in smaller shot sizes, and can be punishing on shotgun barrels not designed to handle it (such as older 18" cylinder bores). Lead is dense, heavy and relatively soft, a perfect combination of traits for an anti-personnel projectile, especially when covered with a thin layer of copper.

Comparison of shot sizes lead (aka "birdshot") / buckshot (also lead) / steel.

Most "tactical" loads feature a copper-covered lead projectile (such as Federal Premium 00 buckshot), solid lead projectile (Federal 1 oz. rifled slug), solid copper projectile, or perhaps tungsten or another heavy metal or alloy. The idea is density: Steel pellets aren't nearly as heavy as lead pellets of the same size.

Steel shot is used in waterfowl loads because it is non-toxic. Premium waterfowl loads have done away with steel in favor of heavier metals and alloys such as bismuth, as they are non-toxic and have the advantage of heavier pellets. I don't have to eat the person breaking into my house, so I use lead because it has the predictable "Oomph!"

...

Hot Hot Generalizations: If one was to examine the typical single shot infantryman rifle wound of a civil war soldier versus a soldier fighting in Vietnam... it turns out that slower-flying giant lead balls do a helluva lot more damage than fast-flying FMJ rounds (in most cases). Granted, this doesn't examine the flow-through vacuum effect of instant target body penetration nor does it account for full-house rifle rounds such as 7.62x51 or 7.62x54.

I suppose modern weapons were designed with smaller, faster projectiles to allow us to carry more rounds, shoot farther, and not really kill anybody (the whole one-wounded-guy-requires-two-buddies-to-carry-him DOD theory that follows the "humane ammo" contradiction in post-WWI militaries).

Ooops, rambling. Almost fell into another 5.56 trap.

...

Reloading is a very precise science... especially when the decimal point is involved.

I had a buddy at Fort Bragg who used to reload all the time (.45 auto and .44 Mag) and you can get amazing consistency if you know what you're doing and have the patience to make sweet, patient love to each round.

Top end factory rounds are nearly unbeatable, but you can make some useful loads you can't find anywhere else on your own bench.
-----Added 22/12/2008 at 08 : 04 : 16-----
He uses it for concealed carry. Duh.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Draconis

Yeah, that's why I'd replace the stock with a folding one, but unfortunately the heat guard only comes on that one [cost of replacing the stock might be a little more than adding the heat guard but I like the heat guard on that model and would rather choose my stock].

On a different note: Exotic shotgun rounds
- Dragon's Breath
- Flechette
- Bola

Talk amongst yourselves.

__________________
STEVE MCKENNA!

Plan9

Seriously: You're wasting your money getting the "Cruiser" pistol grip model. Get a shotgun with a full stock and sights already mounted. If you want to add the looks-cool-largely-unnecessary heatshield, you can get a Mossberg one off the Midway or Numrich websites. The stock and sights are necessary, the heat shield isn't.

Trust me... if you need the heat shield during a home defense situation, a shotgun is not what you need... you need a M240B with an ammo can. It makes more sense to get the gun with the proper stock and sights, even if you intend on changing the stock later. I recommend a collapsing M4 stock. Getting quality sights installed on a shotgun is a bitch. Save yourself the money and the hassle.

Example of what you should invest in:

Mossberg 590... never need another shotgun.

Also check out the Winchester 1300. Did you look at the FN TPS link I posted above?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ramone

My choice for around the house...

MOSSBERG 500 Mariner Tactical (still a newb, can't post link)

Of course, I live on the water- hell, with the right tide, I live in the water- but the 'marinecote' finish holds up really really well, and the stock allows you to remove the adjustable M4 style stock and try it out as a pistol-grip. Then you can put it back on. Which you will.

Ramone

__________________
I used to care... but things have changed.

MSD

On the subject of choke and ammo, if you ever get a chance to fire 00 buck through a full choke into ballistics gel, do it. I haven't been able to, but I heard from people who have that your jaw will gape for a while when you see what it does.
Shit, I didn't know these were still around. Is it just me, or can Cobray's history be summed up by:

Cobray: Can we do this?
ATF: No
Cobray: How about if we do this instead?
ATF: No
Cobray: Now?
ATF: No
Cobray: What if I take this part off?
ATF: No
Cobray: And this part?
ATF: Ok, I guess ... but only this once.
Cobray; Woohoo! (puts gun into production)
(repeat for every gun they make)

Plan9

Hahaha! Good summary. Yeah, the Street Sweeper is still around. It comes in the non-DD long gun version some places. There is even a a "pistol" version (much like the pistol version of short-barreled AKs you see today) where they simply chopped the stock and took the fore grip off. Good luck firing that bastard one handed, ya know?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Dunedan

I'm pretty sure the Street Sweeper and all variants are DDs these days..."No sporting purpose" and all that horseshit.

Slims

I strongly recommend against a pistol grip, or even a folding stock. They are just not practical for the average homeowner.

Unless your need for concealment outweighs the need for performance, don't bother with a folding stock.

That stock helps you instinctively line the shotgun up towards a target, absorbs recoil to facilitate follow up shots, provides stability for reloads, helps prevent bad habits, etc. It is important.

If you really want a 'shorter' shotgun, get one with a youth stock, or cut down a regular one, but don't get rid of it altogether. A folding stock will only complicate things for you, especially with a mossberg since they often cover the safety and/or the 'sights'.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

I concur with the tactical guru.

Yeah, common sense suggests one defending their home isn't really concerned with concealment. White light and loud voices all the way for that situation.

The ease of handling associated with a pistol grip or folding stock shotgun is the video game myth I mentioned above: in the real world you need to anchor the gun to your shoulder with a substantial stock. If you want a shorter shotgun, the cheapest way to go about it is to get that $200 tax stamp and saw your Remington 870 barrel down flush with the mag tube (~14"). Time tested weapon design has shown again and again that the only realistic way to effectively shorten a weapon is to shorten the portion in front of the pistol grip by either chopping the barrel ("carbine"), making the action more compact (ex: Uzi bolt) or moving the action rearward (bullpup).

Folding stocks are generally weak, wobbly, and uncomfortable (think M1 paratrooper carbine, Butler Creek models for the Mini-14 or the retarded steel "Transformers" stock on the original Uzi that is only slightly less painful than prison rape). They're a crappy gimmick with few exceptions on the market and represent a huge weak point in a weapon's structural integrity as well as design philosophy. What good is something small and handy if you can't aim and fire it correctly? Short of PDW-style spray-and-pray weapons, they are inappropriate for most weapons and unnecessary for home defense.

The Speedfeed company produces a full solid stock with pistol grip (similar to the feel of the old M16A2) that is top notch. You'll see a similar setup on Benelli's tactical and newer hunting shotguns. An old school solid wood stock on a home defense shotgun is a good choice as well. The advantage of the solid stock with pistol grip combination over the traditional shotgun stock is, in my opinion, the stronger, straighter angle of the wrist and elbow. It's more comfortable, more natural, and handier.

+1 to the youth stock. Perfect option for shorter people or people in body armor. The key to success is having something substantial and solid to mount in your shoulder pocket at all times, something that a folding stock doesn't provide. While the length of pull may be way off and uncomfortable, it means at least you're not two-handing a long gun like a cheesy action movie hero.

If you have the money and can afford an expensive stock, the mostly-steel M4-style collapsing stock is an acceptable choice if you need something relatively compact. I was pleased with the FN TPS shotgun I played with for a few weeks. Keep in mind that the market is flooded with worth-shit clones, just as it is with every type of gun accessory. Never use anything as a stock that you can break by leaning on or dropping from shoulder height. The stuff made by Knoxx is quality, but expensive and overkill for home defense purposes.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

A youth stock works for home defense. I'd agree that you don't need a folding stock on a home defense weapon. Any home defense weapon deserves a light (even might consider a laser - no substitute for training but they can be useful for home defense). If you can afford it you might want to get a vang comped barrel.

Any excuse to show my vang comped 870 with Lasermax:

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

Nice setup, but Hogue long gun stocks always feel like sex toys to me.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

MSD

What exactly is going on in the second picture? Is it a laser on my left and a light on my right?

telekinetic

Is it safe to say this thread has existed long enough without mention of the Remington 1740?





Build thread:
Remington 1740: My Project Begins. - THR

Edit: yes I know it's old, but the thread on THR is still live...the creator is looking in to making and selling kits! LOL

__________________
twisted no more

longbough

you got it.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

mowgli

When someone is breaking into my house, what do I go for...? For everyone I suppose it is different. As ex-military, I would personally take a 410 shotgun. Why? Because I can take someone out in my bedroom, and not worry about my kid sleeping in the next room. Period! You just want to drop the intruder, not your friend next door. A 410 will do the job but it will not go through two sheets of gyproc! It is very important for you to consider this, or you could wind up with a lot more trouble than just missing your TV.
Another reason is you don't have to be a great aim with a shotgun. You would be amazed at what people can miss at just 5 yards with a handgun, at a range! Throw in some stress and inexperience, that gun just might be taken away by the crook and then used on YOU!


What brand is good? Mossberg, Remington,Winchester... They are all good. Talk to a reputable gun shop. You are not looking for a service weapon. You might plink with it for a while, then it just ends up in the closet "just in case". Find something that feels comfortable and fits your budget.

What do I use? An empty Mossberg 500 Tactical! Nothing chills shit faster than hearing the action of a pump, the green laser really adds to it! Pretty much I will have to beat the bastard with it if he does not lie on the floor. If I shoot the bastard, I will lose my guns, probably be sued by the crook or his family, and/or go to jail. The laws protect whom???

At any rate, I am not recommending firearms for your home protection, I am merely answering your question. ANYTHING that you pull on an intruder has the potential to be used on YOU!
Good luck!

img183.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=65128_IMG_0214_122_186lo.jpg

Plan9

That's one philosophy.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Slims

Um, a .410 loaded with OO buck will penetrate just as well as a 12 ga w/ OO buck. Slugs are even worse.

What load are you using? With birdshot, even a 12 Gauge will have trouble penetrating walls.

If recoil is the problem low recoil 12 Ga. rounds are available.

Rather than trying to force an unarmed home invader to the floor, maybe try asking him to just get out of your house instead. If he is armed then the law will protect you.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

mowgli

Thanks Slims. THAT is why I did not recommend firearms, or loads. If you miss standing in the middle of an 8X 10 bedroom, in an apartment building, you are taking a risk of hurting someone innocent. Loads, room size, or wall materials... there are too many variables for a generic answer. That is why you consult a reputable firearms dealer. They can assist in firearm and load selection for your particular situation.

Asking him to get out is a great idea. I would like to add, maybe lock yourself in the john and dial 911. This will give the police time to arrive if he decides he is not going anywhere. I prefer to try and hold them until the police arrive to prosecute. If he leaves, the little old lady down the road may not be so fortunate. Once again, this is a preference, not a recommendation.

If the intruder is armed or unarmed, the law will protect you. This is ONLY if the policeman is there right then and right there with you! Unfortunately, in most cases, the police involvement statistically occurs AFTER THE FACT. The police typically arrive and get involved AFTER the rape, AFTER the robbery, or AFTER the murder. Until there is a law enforcment member actually WITH you, YOU are on your own!

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” - Sigmund Freud

Plan9

General thread consensus:

12 gauge with any size buckshot works just fine. Handguns work fine, too.

Avoid using a FN FAL or Barrett M107 if your home has thin walls.

/puts thread to bed

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

Dude. Really? Even buckshot fired from a modified choke wont spread to more than 1.5 ft @ 25 yards. At 15 feet the shot pattern is about the size of your fist. Its fairly easy to miss with a shotgun.

Fear of having your weapon turned on you is a poor excuse for carrying an unloaded weapon. Practice weapons retention and combatives. Practice stress shooting. Practice shooting while moving, from behind cover, reloading, failure drills, etc. Practice clearing your house like you would if you were to awake to bumps in the night.

I cannot fathom using an unloaded weapon as some sort of psychological deterrent. Youre just asking for someone to call your bluff and you wont be prepared when they do. If I were a Bad Guy, I wouldnt break into a house that I knew to be occupied unless I was armed and willing to kill someone.

If I heard a shotgun being pumped, I would start shooting through walls and doors as I broke contact.

If I saw a little green laser in an otherwise dark house, I would start shooting at the source of the laser. Again, through walls if need be.

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Calmer than you are...

Plan9

WillRavel? Is that you? We are referring to bold street criminals in this thread, not 18Bs.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Walt

You dont have to be a Bearded Hero to put rounds through a door. Just ask the 17 year old douchebag that killed Sean Taylor.

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Calmer than you are...

Gloves

Research and Buy a weapon you like... Then practice, practice, Practice to the (point) you can hit what you aim at consistently. Enough Said...