Draconis

I'm looking into a shotgun for home safety, b/c of higher armed-entry robberies recently around where I live. I'm a grad student, so I'm trying to keep costs down under 400, and have been looking at Mossberg 500 tacticals (my personal favorite so far being the 8-shot cruiser) but I'd be lying if I said I knew what to go looking for (considering I haven't shot a gun since I was 10). Any other suggestions? I appreciate any and all advice.

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Anormalguy

My experience with shotguns is very limited. I'd consider a handgun, because shotguns, even those with shortened home defense barrels, can be unwieldy in close spaces like a hallway. My handguns are kept handy (bad pun ), but my rifles are kept in the closet.

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Willravel

My second hand understanding is the opposite of Anormaguy; I believe shotguns are perfect for home defense. Which ones? That I'm not sure of. I'd probably get an auto. Don't get me wrong, doubles and pumps are great, but really you want ease of use when you're in a life/death situation. How about a Remington 11-87?

telekinetic

Mossberg 500's are good--I'd either get one of those or a pump 12-gage Remington 870. I wouldn't trust an auto in a self defense situation, plus it doesn't make a 'intruders should shit their pants and run away' noise when you rack it. It is pretty close to perfect for home defense.

SSJTWIZTA

i dont know about that. if i were robbing a house and i heard that bolt slam in a shell i would shit.

if you ask me, a good little 20 gauge would work fine. if its for home defense just try to keep it short. oh yeah, buck-shot, no smaller than #1 (thanks to Moot for that tip)

you could just read this thread. pistol- home defense. it's originally about handguns, but it goes on to cover a bit about shot guns as well.

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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
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Willravel

If I were robbing a house and heard the gun cock, I'd open fire first. Which probably isn't the desired result.

Cynthetiq

it's times like this I miss my mossberg hand cannon.

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Vigilante

I have a mossberg 500 just for this purpose currently. Use small shot for safety if you live close to others, since a slug or heavy shot might go barreling through the walls and hit an unintended person.

For home use, shortest legal barrel is best, and it doesn't need to meet SWAT specifications LOL. Shotguns are perfect for small spaces as well, no different than a 2-handed pistol. Hold close while in a tight spot and drop when open, then fire when ready. Long barrels can go one-handed (done this before with 2 shotties) but try that with a short barrel and you'll regret it LOL.

I'm a quiet person by nature, so I already have a shell in the chamber with the safety on. Loudest noise an intruder would hear is the safety click before the final boom.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to kill anyone, but if someone is in my house, they will die. Point of no return is long past.

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Cynthetiq

Might not be but then it's ARMED robbery and assault with a deadly weapon versus a plain old simple robbery.

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Jinn

Still not sure why willravel posts in Tilted Weaponry about firearms considering his self-admitted dislike for them and total inexperience with them.

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Willravel

It could even be first degree murder, but the idea behind having a gun for home defense is to save your own life when you feel you or your family is in mortal danger. If someone breaks into your home and you believe that your life is in danger, you have to shoot to kill. I don't make the rules, but these are the rules I'm aware of.
My dislike for guns is in TFPolitics. Tilted Weaponry isn't here for debating whether or not guns are good. I'd appreciate it if you respected the rules.

Cynthetiq

Not in Texas.

And for the matter, if the robber shoots first it's then for SURE saving one's own life. Brandishing a loaded weapon is not a reason for someone else to shoot first.

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Willravel

Having a weapon that you have to cock means that you give an audible signal that you're armed and you likely give away your location. If a home invader is armed, you don't think he would open fire in direction of a gun cocking? My point is that with an automatic weapon, the first sound is a 12 gauge shotgun going off.

Cynthetiq

you play too many first person shooters. normal people do not react like that. a twitchy trigger finger of just shooting because you thought you heard someone load or cock a weapon is an inexperienced weapon handler.

no. I don't.... I believe that hey would more than likely leave the premises, armed or unarmed, in favor of easier pickings or prey.

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Willravel

This is way too speculative, so much so that the conversation has become useless.

I like the Remington, Draconis.

Poppinjay

The thing to do, is record several pumps of a shotgun, in varying degress of stereo, and spend that $400 on a surround sound system.

That is, if you don't mind cleaning up after your criminal.

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Cynthetiq

Or at least have to buy new speakers because Will would have shot them out.

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Jinn

I just think it's disingenuous to claim any sort of knowledge about the mechanics or handling of a gun, particularly recommending a gun to someone who actually intends to use it, when you yourself despise guns and have next to no experience with them. It's like someone who doesn't own a drivers license recommending new car purchases to someone.

You're all over speculative claims in this very thread, yet fail to hold your own posts to the same light. Everything you recommend here is speculative at best, because you do not (to the best my knowledge) own or use a shotgun, nor have actually planned or used a firearm in a home defense situation. It smacks of Know-It-All-ism.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

I hate war, but that hasn't stopped me from studying military history. What's with the threadjacks?
The problem with this is my recommendation is actually a really good one (I got an IM right after I posted it from a TFP gun lover who approved of my choice). It kinda shoots your argument in the foot. No pun intended. Again, what's with the threadjacks? You and Cynth need to calm down.

I know that Remington makes decent weapons. Jeez, look at the Remington 870; it's the quintessential shotgun.

dksuddeth

regarding whether a handgun or shotgun is better for home defense, two things enter my mind.

first, what are you more comfortable with? myself, I shoot a handgun a hell of a lot more accurate than a shotgun (as crazy as that sounds)

second, space is a major issue. If you have small rooms and hallways/doorways, a shotgun might not be a very wieldy object as compared to a handgun.

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Draconis

A) Thin walls (apartment), so birdshot's safer than a .308 round or anything like that where I live.
B) Already have a 1000 dollar PA system but that doesn't have a remote.
C) I do have a remote for my projector, so blinding them would work just fine.
D) I'm not really comfortable with any gun yet, so ....
- Draconis

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Anormalguy

Very few people, relatively speaking, own automatic weapons. Most self-feeding pistols, shotguns, rifles, etc., are semi-automatic (you have to release the trigger & then squeeze it again to get the next round to fire).

You can make very little noise pulling the hammer back on a pistol, shotgun, rifle, etc. If I kept a pump-action shotgun (I do have a pump-action rifle) for home defense, I'd have the first round already chambered so that all I had to do was release the safety & be ready to shoot. Semi-automatic weapons need to have the first round chambered before they'll shoot. That can be done fairly quietly; I keep my semi-automatic handguns with the round already chambered.

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telekinetic

You're actually wrong here, and the term has been used correctly all thread--I'm only pointing it out because you tried to say that others were wrong. Automatic refers to the fact that you can just pull the trigger over and over without having to manually cycle the action. You are thinking of 'fully automatic' (as opposed to 'semi-automatic'), but both are examples of automatic designs--automatic by itself just means you don't have to do anything to advance a new cartridge.

So quoth wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_firearm

The_Dunedan

Regarding choice of ammo:

NO BIRDSHOT. I repeat; NO BIRDSHOT. Birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for Bad Guys. Buckshot pellets, being more massive than birdshot, conserve their kinetic energy better and therefore penetrate deeper and inflict greater shock damage.
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2
The Box O' Truth #17 - I Hear You Knocking - Metal Doors - Page 1
The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 4

NO BIRDSHOT.

Willravel

HALLELUJAH!

Plan9

Turns out I'm unhappy with this thread's inaccuracies and undereducated opinions.

I will come back tomorrow and unleash my gun-knowledge bowels upon you all.

Said unleashin' shall be aided by the delicious refried beans I consumed earlier.

This shall include pretentious instructional pictures of shotgun use by my S/O.

...

Draconis, you should read these threads:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...e-defense.html

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...wer-crime.html

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Whatever you can carry.

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KirStang

I use a Ar-15 Carbine length under my bed for HD. It has a sure-fire attached to it, so target identification won't be a problem. The Ar-15 uses .223's which--surprisingly penetrate less than say, a .45. For me, that's personal choice, I feel more sure of my aim and more in control of the AR than holding a pistol or shotgun. It's also extremely easy to switch from 'Safe' to 'fire.'

The problem with shotgun is that the BATFE has seen it fit to classify any barrel less than 18" on a shotgun as an Short-Barreled Rifle, requiring paperwork to shorten the length of it. Personally, the 18" barrel makes it somewhat harder for me to maneuver, but it's individuals choice (no stock?). The shotgun's an assured man stopper though.

I'm not happy with my pistol for HD, as I feel unstable holding it with a flashlight in the other hand.

Eitherway, so long as you have a gun for HD, be sure to have a dependable flashlight too--wouldn't want to shoot your roomate returning home late.

Vigilante

Here is mine:


Heavy wood stock for a reason - it helps balance the gun much better than a composite stock, and it can break a jaw/skull very easily if need be. When you shoot, the kick is much less with this stock. I know because I've shot both wood stock and composite, both short barrels, and the composite, even shot from the hip, is more difficult to keep level.

The shell is heavy dove, perfect for home defense. Believe me when I say this shell can shatter a 2x6 board with ease. Close range, an intruder will not survive, provided you aim for the vital regions.

Whatever you use, be it pistol or shotgun, take it out and shoot it. Get used to it, take it apart and clean it (seriously, you'll truly know the gun if you do this) and enjoy the learning experience this offers. With power comes responsibility, so remember that when you're looking down the sights. Always be safety conscious and at the range (or woods) keep the direction of the barrel and what's in front of it in your thoughts at all times. Never look down in it, never point it at a person (even far away) and never shoot if you don't know what's past a stand of trees, etc. Try skeet for the shotgun, it will improve your aiming speed, and throw a chunk of wood or something in a river or stream and shoot it a few times. It's fun, and you'll learn more and more about the aiming and movement of the firearm. It may seem like redneck playtime, but honestly it gives you needed handling experience and allows you to see how much fun owning a firearm can be.

Oh and for space concerns, a shotgun can hide behind nearly any door in a house.
-----Added 7/10/2008 at 02 : 22 : 16-----
You can shoot twice and explain it to the cops. Birdshot in the eye socket is not going to be good for the burglar, or his brain.

If you kill your neighbor's kid because the shot was too heavy when it went through a window or an apartment wall, you can explain that too, but I doubt you'll receive the same sympathy.

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Anormalguy

Twistedmosiac, I don't feel that I'm "wrong here" & I certainly wasn't trying "to say that others were wrong." I'm used to making a distinction between automatic & semi-automatic. In my experience automatic means fully automatic, while semi-automatic means "you can just pull the trigger over and over without having to manually cycle the action." I know a good number of people who would agree with my interpretation of the terms, & apparantly there are some who would not.

IMO the media has a bad habit of using the term "automatic weapons" when in fact they should say semi-automatic weapons. But that depends on how one defines the terms.

__________________
In a society where the individual is not free to pursue the truth...there is neither progress, stability nor security.--Edward R. Murrow

SSJTWIZTA

for me automatic means hold the trigger and the lead flies.

semi-auto means with every pull of the trigger another round is fired.


i guess it could be different from person to person, i dunno.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

The_Dunedan

The ability to break boards does not translate into the ability to penetrate flesh. One is a function of kinetic energy transfer into the object, the other is a function of how well the -impacting- object penetrates the object its' hitting. Put simply, breaking boards is indicative of how well something -sheds- energy, penetrating flesh is indicative of how well something -retains- energy. That's part of why a shotgun load will smash a 2x4, while the much more powerful .308 rifle bullet will just punch through. Because the pellets dump all their energy very quickly (being very light), they're great at smashing things. However, penetration sucks for precisely the same reason. This is why Dick Cheney could shoot his lawyer in the face and not kill him, and why cops who take vest-hits from shotguns get to go back to work the following week, while cops who take vest-hits from a centerfire rifle get buried.*** It's also worth asking: if birdshot is effective for self-defense, why do cops, the military, prison-guards, etc. all carry buckshot?

Birdshot in the eye-socket will stop in the eye or, at most, the frontal portion of the brain. This is painful, perhaps blinding, but not instantly incapacitating. If someone's coming after me with a weapon, especially in my home, I want him down NOW.

Here's how the conversation would go:

Cop: Why is this burglar's face full of BBs?

Homeowner: Because I shot him with birdshot, but when that didn't work I moved to buckshot.

Cop: So you used a less-effective loading...why?

Homeowner: I didn't want to kill him, just scare him off.

Cop: Why wouldn't you want kill him, if you felt endangered enough to pull a weapon?

Homeowner: I didn't -know- he was a serial rapist, I thought he was just some guy.

Cop: You're under arrest for Murder in the 2nd Degree, put your hands on your head and turn around slowly.

Homeowner: What?! But HE burglarized ME!

Cop: If he wasn't a lethal threat, you had no business pulling your gun: you fail the "Reasonable Person Test." And if he was a lethal threat, you had no business using #6. Now, you have the right to remain silent...

Granted, this scenario would require the cop (and the DA) to be total hoplophobic assholes. However, hoplophobic asshole cops and District Attourneys are hardly difficult to find. Basically, the legalese argument would run thus: If the Bad Guy was a lethal threat (passing the Reasonable Person test), lethal force is justified. However, the homeowner's choice of a (probably) non-lethal round indicates that the homeowner didn't believe the Bad Guy to -be- a lethal threat, and they therefore had no legal right to even present the weapon, much less fire it, less still fire it into the Bad Guy.

As for killing the neighbor's kid, here's the thing: that's a concern with -everything-, even a .22. It's something that should influence the choice of weapons, but should not be allowed to decrease the effectiveness of the weapon selected IMO.


Not exactly.

The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 2
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12_4.htm*

Centerfire rifle rounds will -always- out-penetrate pistol loads using the same weight of bullet, assuming no exotic (MagSafe, Glazer, Green/Frangible) exotic bullets are used in the rifle.
Rifle Bullet = Fast, pointy, lots of sectional density, 1,000+ ft-lbs at the muzzle.
Pistol Bullet = slow, blunt, not much sectional density, 500 ft-lbs at the muzzle (maybe**).

The one exception to this is firing into water, where a rifle bullet's higher velocity and greater kinetic energy will cause the bullet to self-destruct. Pistol bullets hold up much better.





*This series of tests deals with shooting through spaced walls. The 5.56mm testing was problematic, because the projectile kept keyholing and frequently departed the test area. This caused deviation from the path of aim and made side-by-side comparison difficult, since the pistol bullets all traversed a straight line.
**Talking defensive calibers here, not .460 S&W Magnum or the like.
***Almost -any- centerfire rifle round can penetrate or perforate a Police vest, and many are capable of giving all but the highest-rated hard body armor a very bad day.

KirStang

I stand corrected then. As I understood it, the 55gr AR projectile tended to deflect more easily than a 230gr projectile.

Respectfully however, on the issue of charging the homeowner--the hypothesis you've given us is underpinned by the idea that it is NOT in a Castle Doctrine state. If the scenario did indeed happen in a Castle Doctrine state, then, provided the burglar isn't fleeing, one has the right to shoot.

Furthermore, I think any jury--and any defense attorney for that matter, will not buy the argument that, since you used birdshot, you're liable for 2nd degree murder (Which by the way, needs to infer an extreme reckless regard for life). A suspicious man enters your home, you fear for the safety of yourself/children/wife/kids, so you shoot them. No problem.

The general jurisdictional rule is, if one honestly but mistakenly believes they had a right to use lethal force and death results, then they are liable for manslaughter.

The DAs out there aren't out to press charges against everyone, I think TV has taught us to believe all this legal bulls---, which is a far departure from reality.

Vigilante

Dune, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I would use buckshot second to heavy dove regardless of what you say. I find your speculation no better than mine. One shot is going to severely hamper or stop nearly all but the most doped-up burglars, and the second would most definitely kill if applied to the skull. If I can cut down trees with birdshot, holding one shotty in each hand, then it will certainly crush any bone from close range, whether there is an inch of flesh in the way or not.

In Texas, you don't need "reasonable threat" when they are in your home. When their foot crosses the doorway, they are fair game. Shoot him in the back to slow him down and shoot him in the face to finish the job.

Allow me to add that 2 out of my 4 neighbors around me have children. House to my left has 3 kids, house across the street has 2, house to my right has none, house behind me has none (but the drunkards might as well count IMO, it's like middle schoolers owning a house). Too much risk of flying lead, I prefer not to risk it when I know I can get the job done with what I have loaded in the chamber as of now.

__________________
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-Winston Churchill

The_Dunedan

Very true, but even getting to that point can be a ruinously expensive process. And while it may be (thankfully) unlikely to the point of comedy in my little town, I can easily see it taking place in Chicago, New York, or San Francisco. Whether the DA is out for you can depend largely on the DA's politics, if they're an ass (and some are).

Agreed, and very true.

MSD

Birdshot is not an acceptable home defense ammo, period. If you want a shotgun, #4 buck is as small as you can go with a reasonable certainty that it will stop an attacker. If you're worried about overpenetration, get a handgun with Glaser safety slugs, they won't overpenetrate a soft target and will be unlikely to cause harm if they pass through anything more than single-thick drywall.
You're in the minority: in over 90% of instances of armed self-defense, the situation ends without a shot being fired. It may be as high as 95%, but I'm not positive and can't look it up right now.

markd4life

Go out and get the cheapest, used, piece of sh#t shotgun that still looks like it works,....if all you want is piece of mind. Nothing says, 'get the f#ck outta my house' like a shotgun. Personally 12gauge works for me.

Deltona Couple

OK, I am going to interject my $.02 worth here on what I have learned:

First, I would hope that for those who have children, that you would first IDENTIFY who hase broken into your house BEFORE you pull the trigger. There are WAY too many cases of a father killing his own children accidentally when he THOUGHT it was a burgler, and chose to shoot first, and identify later. ALWAYS and I mean without a SINGLE FAULT, ALWAYS identify your target before you shoot.

second, there are very valid points that suggest a shotgun is better for home defense over a handgun... ANYONE can go to a range with a handgun and calmly pull the trigger and get a nice grouping of the rounds, but try this when you have just been woken up, 5cc's of adrenaline pumping through your veins, you are nervous, scared for your family, and then BAM! you run face to face with a burgler, NOW try and calmly pull the trigger and get some good group on a possible moving target...A shotgun can take MANY projectiles (read shot) and send them in a larger grouping. i.e. you dont have to be a perfect shot to still fu&k a burglers day up. I have a handgun for self defense, but I will grab my shotgun WAY before I grab the pistol if I suspect someone has entered my home.

Also...In the state of texas, even if you felt threatened, you CAN NOT, and I have asked a local sheriff that I know, you CAN NOT shoot a burgler in the back, unless YOU are outside, and he is entering your home where you know for a fact a family member is inside. You cant just sneak up behind the guy and unload into his back. This also goes against the "identify your target" plan. Don't EVER EVER EVER pull the trigger until you know WHO you are shooting. Innocent people get killed that way.


Every state has its own laws regarding home defense. I would suggest ANYONE who is thinking of purchasing a firearm of any type to consult your local laws BEFORE you make the purchase.

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Fire

Interestingly enough this discussion illustrates a lot of the arguments floating around every gun range and, for that matter every self defense class- Shotguns are good, but unwieldy, and you need two hands, which makes it hard to dial 911 while you are holding the weapon on the bad guy- and the "pump a shotty makes the Bad Guy's bowels turn to water" argument has been around for years- as has the pump gun VS semi auto one- I feel that whatever wilravel's politics, the argument he is supporting is considered valid by many defense experts, and is oft discussed... As to my .02, I have had a family member that did not have to shoot an intruder because the sound of a pump shotgun made them reconsider raping her ..... so I believe in its POTENTIAL to deter a criminal... though it does give away your position.......

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Mood the more as our might lessens

inBOIL

You don't want anything that might fall apart. A bad guy isn't going to be intimidated if you try to chamber a shell and the grip breaks off in your hand.

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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

debaser

Had to call you on this one, mate. Though the statement regarding equal weight is accurate, most people will be using a 55 or 62 grain bullet vs. well over 180 grains for almost all .45 ammo. Most 5.56 will fragment almost instantly upon hitting drywall or sheetrock, and loose much if not all of it's lethal potential after passing through the second sheet. It is a pretty damn good home defense round, especially since most home defense situations will put the rifle within range to deliver the neccessary 2200 fps needed to assure proper permanant cavitation (ie a clean kill).

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