Open Carry
 

Would you open carry? Why or why not?

I currently don't own any weapons but have in the past. The density here in NYC makes it impractical to posess and use a weapon.

But if I lived in suburbia, I'd probably be much more interested in open carry. I recall going over the laws when living in CA that I could walk the city with a shotgun at my side, just had to make sure that I kept the ammo in a different pocket so that the weapon wasn't loaded. Of course getting hassled by the police was just a pain in the ass, so it was short lived.

We open carry almost everywhere we go, the only exceptions being cop-shops, post offices, schools, etc. My Mom refuses to open carry in the grocery store, but that just means she leaves her primary behind and takes the Kel Tec .32. Other than that, it's an everyday/everywhere thing for us. Gotten a few dirty or puzzled looks, lots of questions, and more than a few "attaboy's" from passerby.

Aah, the joys of living in the middle of nowhere.

"He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally."
Why does this not surprise me?


I have no choice -- under CT law, even printing is considered brandishing and is grounds for permanent revocation of your carry permit. The pistol permit and carry permit are the same thing, so you can no longer legally purchase handguns in CT after that. I'd still conceal if I had the choice, though. It should be a deterrent, but with the gang activity in the area getting so bad, I wouldn't want to risk someone even thinking about stealing my gun because it could cause danger to a lot more people than just me. Maybe it's just from being in the Northeast all my life, but I can't imagine open carry being a common thing.

Interesting topic. How much faster is it to deploy a pistol from open carry as opposed to typical concealed carry holsters? Is the faster deploy time worth potential bad guys seeing that you are armed when they are about to start shooting the mall up, and thus taking you out first? I suppose it depends on if you think the weapon acts as a deterrent or if you want the element of surprise.

For example, I know jiu-jitsu, but I would prefer bad guys only finding that out AFTER I have wrapped my arms around their neck.

Chris, I think their logic is that it's a deterrent. In that sense, I understand it. Considering the density of violence in the news (not that that necessarily denotes an overly violent world), it makes sense that gun owners would want such confidence. Further, I think it's perfectly reasonable to carry a gun in general public places (going near a school or government building is going a little too far, however). It's within their rights, so I support it.

From a fashion point of view, however, it's a little too gaudy for my taste.

I live in Phoenix. I see people open carry a couple times a week all over the place. Once I have a carry firearm that I'm happy with and have properly trained with (gun show in two weeks!), if I'm working on a project and I'm just going to run to the store or something, I'll probably just slap on a belt holster rather than put on a concealed rig.

I definitely will open carry when hiking. Too much of a pain otherwise.

Open carry in Arizona is legal with no paperwork, by the way. Huzzah!

Edit: besides, holsters are cool!

http://www.patriotoutfitters.com/img...4400/14429.GIF

I fully support legal open carry. However, I also believe concealed carry is more practical in many situations.

I am sure open carry is a deterrant (who wants to mug someone who definately has a gun?), however, if someone does proceed with an attack, you are probably going to get shot straight away as they know you have a gun.

Also, personal protection is about making sure you remain safe, and one of the best ways to do that is to blend in and keep a low profile. If you have a big ass pistol strapped to your hip for everyone to see you have definately just raised your profile.

I also like concealed carry as it allows me to better control a situation that is in the process of escalating. If I feel the presence of a firearm would only make things worse, I can choose to never reveal that I have one.

I can draw a concealed weapon almost as fast as one carried openly.

If I lived on a ranch or elsewhere where firearms are the norm I wouldn't hesitate to carry openly.

Even in Afghanistan, if I was not on a full blown combat mission, I usually chose to carry concealed. When we would go meet with afghans (some of them very questionable people) it really helped put our hosts at ease when we dropped our body armor and our only apparent weapons (M-4's) in a corner of the room.

Seeing as one of my big concerns is that the places that make me nervous are that way because of the nearby gang territory, I don't want to stick out any more than I do by being ridiculously tall.

Open Carry in CO is legal without permit. I'd never do it, though, because my city seems to have one of the highest percentage of "OH SHIT HE'S GOT A GUN!!! CALL THE COPS!!" idiots and I don't like being interrogated by police officers everywhere I go. In one of my gun safety classes the officer (a city police officer) was recommending that we get concealed carry permits, just he disliked as much as I did having to stop everyone open carrying to make sure they're not brandishing because someone called 911.

Concealed offers me the same protection without the hassle of my misguided liberal brethren and their irrational fears.

I support open carry wholeheartedly. TotalMILF and I plan to get our concealed permits here shortly anyhow, and I need to look into open carry in Michigan, but I wouldn't be opposed to it for myself either. Just need to find the right pistol and get a card to carry around with the legalese in case law enforcement decided to get crazy.

MOST of them very questionable people? What province were you in? Being the SECFOR over there, we never dropped armor or weapons and tried like hell to stop our CO from doing so with tribal elders. While we saw the "at ease" aspect, our province was far too hot for such things, at least as us infantry guys saw it.

Where's the mushroom shirt, the mushroom belt, the mushroom lining? You gotta co-ordinate! Srsly tho, CF belt + holster = nguyen!

I read this at least ten times and I still have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

It's a movie line from the movie 'Boomerang'. You'd have to see that scene to understand it, but I read it and it's pretty damn funny. :thumbsup:


I'm working with a group here in TX to get open carry decriminalized for the next session, barring that, I guess i'll fight it if I ever get arrested for carrying without a license.

Heh, at least someone got the reference. I didn't know TX didn't permit open carry. Of all the states that allow it, you'd think TX would be one of them. I remember reading about how the Black Panthers exercised open carry rights back in the day in CA. Is there somewhere we can get a list of states that permit it? And yeah that CF belt+holster is sexc.

These have become the new packing.org resources. I really wish the guy who owned it had passed it on instead of saying "I don't feel like doing it anymore" and letting it die.

http://www.usacarry.com/
http://www.handgunlaw.us/

opencarry.org is an excellent site and has plenty of maps that cover most laws.

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/715977.html

and another one.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/...&pageId=3.14.1

there is video in the article, yes, that is me in the first part of the segment.

+1 [Virginia] (despite hoody-hoo VA gun groups)

Open carry makes you a magnet to other charges that somehow wouldn't be bothered with if you were Joe Nongun. Jay walking while open carrying? Book 'em, Dano.

Greg700 has the right philosophy.

...

Self defense starts first with how you walk and second with what you say.

Third should probably be how fast you can run... and drawing your pistol should be near ninety-nine or so.

There is that. "Complacency Kills" is the most overused BS catchphrase ever, but I sure as hell didn't wanna be THAT guy, either.

Last year, I did Civil Affairs the whole time - also a lot of in-person engagements with leadership and townspeople. Generally, in this context (and also keep in mind, I was in Anbar, where we've completed the security piece and have worked transition for the past 18-24 months), I would also go slick and carry just the sidearm if we were in a hardened building and had security posted.

It wasn't so much to put anyone at ease, but mainly 1) because I could take a breather from the PPE, and B) because even in a phone booth, their marksmanship sucks ass. I *know* what I can do indoors with an M9.




Here in the US, I chime in with those who say locale goes a long way. I'd do it anywhere in Colorado, except maybe Denver or the Springs. Wouldn't dream of it in any east or west coast states withing 100 miles of an Interstate, for a lot of the reasons already cited.

People just flip the fuck out when they see a gun hanging off even a well-dressed, miled-mannered clean-cut white guy if it's not a cop. The hassle isn't worth it.

Texas billboard is up in Austin for OpenCarry.org

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/members...y-bilboard.jpg

Wish we could see some of those in Houston. Seems like all of our billboards are for Mattress Giant.

Open carry smacks of brandishing to me, and in the current climate seems more of an attention grabber than a legitimate use of a defensive weapon.

I have done it. I wouldn't do it again. Life is to short to spend time having your ass kicked by the cops.

Do the cops really hassle people who are lawfully and legally carrying? It seems so crazy. I would love to hear the cops' perspective. Any TFP coppers who can weigh in on this too?

I live in California where all our rights have been taken away. I would consider conceal carry though just because I see it as an inherent right. Open carry here would probably not fly. Idunno though.

We've never had a problem with the Police or Deputies here, but then we do run a gunshop on a farm in the middle of buttfuck, so it's kind-of expected. Plus there are a few other locals who do the same thing, so as long as you're not visibly intoxicated and waving the thing in the air, you probably won't get hassled up here. The only possible wrench in the works is a tourist from the city, but they're not terribly common*, thankfully, and the Sheriff would probably laugh at them and tell them to calm down and get used to it.

In a big city it can be a different story. Lots of cops don't know that open carry is legal, and it can be a problem if some easily-panicked waterhead calls 911.


*The one exception: bikers. My area gets a -lot- of bikers. Somehow, they never seem to mind the guns either.

I live in Canada so I've never really had an exposure to this type of activity and I am very fascinated. I never go into the sections of the site that debate guns or discuss them. First off I thought every post would be something negative and it is the opposite. i have no opinion either way, but i am always excited when i think a thread is going to hit one direction and it smacks me in the face!


In Canada I would have to say very few people carry guns, no idea what the stat is but rare since I've never had anyone I've known or heard of second hand who carries for protection.
anyway not important, but i think that if i did live in a place were people carried guns or had the right to carry i would want them out in the open where they can be a good deterrent IMO instead of all stuffed away.

In some parts of the US, such as where I live and in large parts of the American South and West, it's reasonably common. I'd say open carry's probably more common in the Western states than anywhere else, because so much of that area is rural. I'm talkin' nobody-for-100-miles-in-every-direction rural. It's not terribly common in the flatlands, and certainly not in the "Beltway," although I understand it's becoming more regular in the Vermont/New Hampshire/Maine area. Lots of folks view it as an opportunity to educate people about 2nd Amendment issues and individual Rights of all sorts, and it's certainly easier to carry openly than conceal a pistol in 100+ degree weather and remain comfortable.

In california, by law, open carry is legal. The caveat, though, is the weapon must NOT be loaded. If you carry the gun in a holster, the magazine MUST not be in the weapon. If you have a mag holder, perfect. However, depending on what part of cali you live in, you can most assuredly expect an encounter with law enforcement.

Now, this does not mean that you shouldn't open carry in cali. for example,

san diego open carry lunch and dinner meet!! updated 7-16-08. - Page 35 - Calguns.net

and though nobody was hassled at this open carry event, there were plenty of police officers on scene.....just because.

I hear that the next open carry event is going to be in san jose. Hey will, you up for it?

It's kind of like the good cop/asshole cop split; most of them are cool with it, but there are some who will make it their mission to ruin your day. Some cops aren't comfortable with non-police civilians having guns, some are. The ones who aren't will likely take you in for disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct, hear from your lawyer, then let you go later that day or the next day, at which point you file a complaint for harassment.

Firearms carried for defense by private citizens (as opposed to police or RCMP) is generally limited to those who require it for job safety. This requires some managing of Authorization to Transport permits, and open carry permits. If you are not guarding an armoured car, or likely to be eaten by a bear, you are not going to get a an authorization to carry. Even then, they'd probably prefer that you get eaten by a bear before authorizing you to carry a field revolver.

I would open carry simply because it's more comfortable and more manageable. Stuffing a 5lb weight in your crotch and trying to appear nonchalant is a little difficult.

Halx seems to have it down! :thumbsup: *rimshot*

Open carry is a tactical as well as a social and political choice. Is the potential prevention worth the loss of surprise and possibly a second or two more access time? I've never heard a convincing arguement that one way is 100% better in all circumstances than the other.

Twisted Mosaic: Of course concealed carry isn't appropriate for all circumstances.

If you are in a situation where it is simply assumed you are armed, it is better to have quick access (Police, etc.). But for the regular citizen, most of the time, I feel it is best not to display the weapon unnecessarily.

For instance, I read a story some time back about a defensive shooting at a gun store. The store was robbed, and at some point a shot was fired at one of the employees (and missed, IIRC). Following the robbery, the robbers did things that indicated they were going to execute the employees. At that time, one of the employees drew a concealed weapon and ended the situation.

Had he been wearing that weapon on his hip, he would more than likely have simply been shot at the get-go.

Like I said earlier, concealed carry has it's drawbacks, but for most every day situations (in urban areas) it's best, IMHO, not to attract attention.

Hah, 5 lbs. Stuffing an MRI Desert Eagle behind your fly, are we?

That's funny, a S&W .38 weighs 14 ounces. Probably less than some people's wallets. Most logical concealed carry pieces are going to be pretty small and lightweight. Packing a full size automatic is overkill, IMO. Such weapons are sidearms, not concealed carry pieces. Big difference. A sidearm is a backup to a main firearm for those in an offensive role (military, SWAT, Chuck Norris flick badguys) or a main firearm for those engaged in a protective / defensive role (patrol cops, Average Joe Schmuckatelli). A concealed carry piece is a last ditch, oh-snap-somebody-is-trying-to-croak-me weapon to be used at close range (21 feet or less).

Concealed carry is superior in that it doesn't make you a target to bad guys and cops, doesn't scare ignorant civilians, and doesn't lead to as many firearm-related "accidents."

In a perfect world? Open carry would be ideal. In this world? I am (and you should be, too) more afraid of the police actin'-a-fool and rabid civvie litigation than actually needing to use the privilege to defend yourself using a firearm.

...

Carry weapons is a big pain in the ass anyway. I continue to study martial arts in the hope that the latter will help prevent the use of the former as much as possible.

Perhaps unlike others here at the board who train in martial arts... I'm realistic about the limitations.

I've usually found conversation to be the first line of defense. Not always, but usually.
-----Added 31/8/2008 at 12 : 38 : 33-----
I used to do parole and probation in a rural area of Oregon. Seeing someone with a weapon almost always amounted to a violation of their release agreement. So if they had a weapon it was quickly an in custody situation. Simply were admin. rules that could not be over looked. There was a time under the right circumstances an waiver could be easily applied for during hunting season. Those days ended in the late 80's.

Most Deputies and State Troopers I worked with were not fond of people carrying weapons, esp. loaded weapons. Flat out freaked them out. Of course when you've know or attended funerals for fellow officers who'd be killed during traffic stops I could see being a little on the paranoid side.

I only worked traffic or in uniform during holiday periods for overtime pay. Probably 8-10 times a year for nearly 20 years. During which I wrote a total of less then 10 tickets. If I wrote you a ticket you earned it. Saw lots of rifles and hand guns in vehicles. Caught my attention, kept a close eye on them, but I wouldn't say it raised my blood pressure any.

Interesting, well I have to admit that I am glad that is our law and how we handle it.

I'll just be overly polite to the bear while it nibbles on my leg and eventually it will leave. Plus i think I might be too salty according to the lady friend.

But what I don't understand is why get so worked up over lawful legal guns rather than the real criminals and illegal ones. We're not the ones looking to commit crimes with our open carry or concealed guns. It's to protect ourselves from the criminals who don't respect the law. I would think law enforcement people would embrace and support us lawful citizens in our right to bear arms whether concealed or open carry. Instead of hassling us, perhaps they should be more supportive and turn their attention to the criminals on the street. We're on the same side here.

Many do, many do not. LE is made up of people. People, regardless of profession, often disagree on issues. I was and still am a member of LEAP.

LEAP - Cops Say

I'd say 80% of my co-workers did not favor this organization when I joined, When I left it was closer to 60%.

I think part of your answers lies in that lawful citizens and stark raving criminals do not wear uniforms or signs letting the officer know which he/she is dealing with.

Crompsin, you're certainly entitled to your opinions as to what is suitable as a carry gun. I cc a commander length, alloy frame 1911 in the understanding that if I ever have to use it, I'll be extremely proficient with it.

Righteous: That would be a given. Works pretty damn good for the first line of offense as well, or so I've seen while leveling an M2 machine gun at many a speeding car outside Ghazni.

SWAT-GO-GO-GO: Perhaps the militarization of police organizations in the US has lead to a storm trooper mentality: anybody toting a gun that isn't in our uniform is an enemy regardless of their behavior. There is a huge rift in feelings and communication between the patrol cop and Joe Citizen. A lot of animosity from everybody... litigation-happy whitebreads to rightfully-worried minority groups.

Space Invaders: After serving in the military, I can understand why police officers would prefer not to have civilians carrying guns. Threat identification. In their perfect world only two parties should ever have weapons: good guys and bad guys... so they can associate anybody outside the blue polyester packing a roscoe as a criminal, making it easier to dump all 15 rounds out of their Glock model 22 into some kid with a orange-tipped plastic Uzi.

Math: And just maybe logic dictates that most cops would prefer less people have firearms... it would mean they encounter less firearms in general.

Ignorant blanket statement: Police organizations are not concerned with your right to bear arms or your right to self defense. Not something in their mission statement. They've got plenty else on their plate.

The badge is a symbol of authority. A firearm is authority. Perhaps some in law enforcement would prefer to maintain all the authority in every situation they encounter. Control freaks.

What was it that Mao guy said about the barrel of a gun?

/ramble crap-ola

Open carry is for cowboys.

I don't know anything about leveling machine guns at cars and I had to look up Ghazni (think the spelling threw me.) But I have been in some pretty hostile situations and I've found talking and patients to be very effective tools. When I first started, right out of the Navy basically, my partner/teacher was a Nam Marine vet known as "Sarge" to his friends. He was 6'2" 210lbs and some 8th degree, god knows what, dojo master. The first thing he taught me was if it never goes past conversation everyone goes home (or to jail) uninjured. That and we were paid by the hour. Before he retired I watch him many times spend countless hours talking people into damn near putting the handcuffs on themselves. Of course I also watched him lay several large men out in less then 30sec too. But his preferred method was always calm conversation.



Perhaps? I don't think there's any perhaps about it. The LE profession gives people power and authority. IMHO, all too often power hungry people seek out these positions. And all too often they're hired.

Yipee Ki yay motherf**ker :thumbsup:

Oh, I getcha, bro. I've only come to my conclusion through experience using both carry methods and dealing with the trials and bullshitlations with both.

No Duh: A lot of factors dictate what kind of weapon and carry method one wants to use: Gender, body type, age, occupation, training preference, favorite TV show as a kid, etc. Plethora of others.

Wild 'n Free: Open carry doesn't feature many of the numerous physical restrictions that concealed carry does. See, I used to open / concealed carry a H&K USP 45. I shoot like an action movie hero with that piece, but concealing a full-size automatic on my body type is a chore in anything less than a winter coat. I'm tall and skinny and a handgun the size of a small railroad car just doesn't disappear when I stuff it behind my kidney in a pair of Levi's. Hell, the spare mags are bigger than my cell phone.

Stop That Guy: When I chose open carry with a "cop gun" (boys in blue use H&K around here), I got a lot of stares and harassed by everybody from random people on the street to managers at Wal-Mart. I'd explain to them that it was perfectly legal and that it would also be perfectly legal for me to hide it under a coat due to my little piece of gummint paper, but the "OH-NOES-GUN-SO-SCARY" thing just never went away. Totally irrational fear. So... turns out I got really tired of making myself a instant domestic terrorist whenever I got out of my vehicle in town somewhere.

Crompy Got A Gun: Open carry, for the most part (on the east coast, IMO), is no different than brandishing as far as cops and gun-phobic civvies are concerned. It's wearing a symbol of power that few in society are accepted to tote: military, cops, Effa-Bee-Eye, etc. They don't get it when Joe Average does it. They watch too much TeeVee and assume too much about the purpose and scope of law enforcement (especially when it comes to their personal protection).

Screw Open Carry: After seeing how practicing my perfectly legal right to open carry was going to send me to jail or worse due to public perception, I gave it up. I only do concealed carry these days. I use the excellent 5.11 "UnderArmor" style holster shirt and pack a S&W J-frame with some Federal Hydra-Shok. .38 Special isn't a "man-stopper" or a "one-hit-drop" or whatever, but the gun is light and concealable, can be fired inside a pants pocket or bag multiple times (revolver cylinders don't jam). The holster shirt hides the gun and the gun and ammo I use are a time-tested concealed carry combo that'll do the job it needs to do: neutralize a threat should I need to protect my life.

Any of that make sense to anybody?

*heads off to school to be educated about the real world*

Makes perfect sense. :thumbsup:

crompy, what state on the east coast do you live in? depending on the state, your views can make sense or not.

We live in VA.

I know lots of people in virginia that practice open carry. it's been tough but it's getting alot better over there. Are you in towards the DC area? That would be understandable about not doing open carry much there, but it is getting better.

Yes, we're within an hour of DC. Less from where we work/go to school (same town - we carpool!). It's just not a good idea around here, it seems.

"Travis White, 19, who has ear and chin piercings, congratulated Brandon Trask, 21, on carrying openly for the first time that night. "Just wait until you get confronted by a cop," White said. "It'll make you feel brave."

This statement was in the first article that Cynthetiq posted and it turns me off of to open carry. No one, no matter how honorable their intentions are should have the need to feel brave when carrying a weapon, be it open or concealed. Carrying a gun should never make you feel brave, may be more secure in your self but brave is not a choice I would use. I just can't get the picture of some punk kid standing tall and "bravely" up to some one telling themselves "I'll do it, I'll shoot that guy." It just rubs me all wrong.

I am not against carrying a side arm it’s just the image that gave me is wrong. People need to realize the very real positive and negative affects this will have though. Yes you now have grater potential to protect your loved ones as well as yourself, but like some of the others said, you as the one who is openly carrying a gun put your self and your family at a greater risk. You make yourself target number 1 in the eyes of anyone willing to rob you still. This isn't the movies where the good guy always moves that one second faster then the bad guy and wins the shoot out. If some one is robbing you and see's your hand move one inch closer to the gun, there is a very real chance that you are dead and your screaming loved ones are next.

Also take into consideration an open shoot out where there are a couple people openly carrying. Some random looser goes and starts shooting for what ever self-righteous reason (may be they are protesting the open carry group that is a the pizza joint), now you 15 people shooting back at one guy, where not all of them are thinking about collateral damage.

I admit I prefer concealed carries because they don't put in the face of everyone around them that I am carrying a gun and I have the option to use it but not on will think I have the need to use it. Then again this is all just IMO and how I see it.

I think I get what you're saying here and I agree. Carrying around a gun openly changes the dynamic of situations. Almost like having a TV camera present. People simply start acting differently.

Wonder how many people here that favor open carry have ever been in a situation where having a gun would be a benefit? I carried a gun for years, almost felt naked when I stopped. Simply not an option here in Mexico. Anyway in nearly 20 yrs, in a job that lead to daily confrontations, I never fired a shot at anything other then qualifying targets. Well and wild game, but don't think open carry during hunting season 50 miles from the nearest house apply to this conversation.

At least three occasions here: One attempted break-in (burglar scared off by large dog), One attempted assault (five drunken idiots scared off by large shotgun), and a drunken moron trespassing after dark on gun-shop property. The last was the only time I've ever drawn my sidearm.

These all happened at your home or business? I've had moron drunken hunters show up on my property, own several acres with a resident elk heard. Apparently alcohol turns "No trespassing" sign's into "please hunt here." So, I can understand. But of these incidents you name how many would have been, or were, an open carry situation?

Only the last, the trespasser. Our shop/farm is in the middle of nowhere, and I actually live above the shop. Someone who comes wandering up to a gunshop at 10pm reeking of tequila is either getting ready to rob you or is REALLY stupid. This one, thankfully, turned out to be the latter. I was walking around the property, carrying my weapon in the open: when I returned to the shop after checking fences this idiot (whom I'd never seen before) came out from behind the shop at a trot. Bear in mind this is at 10pm. After I impressed upon him the idiocy of what he'd done, I asked why he'd come in the first place.

"Aah jest wanned t'shee if you'uns wuz opun!"

Yeah, right, see if we're open at 10 o'clock at night.

I saw him off down the driveway on his lawnmower. Yes, lawnmower. Like most of the PWT around here, he's lost his license after being caught driving drunk/stoned/tweaking too many times, and so he gets around on a lawnmower.

Not exactly my understanding of the open carry argument if it happens on your own property. But I appreciate your reply.

If you include events on your own property I've chased people off with a shotgun. Large bull elk in season on the North Oregon coast make people do strange things. I lived on a dead end private gravel road with four lots, five acres each and a resident elk herd. All the lots were on the south side of the road and there was a deep ditch (4ft?) on the north side of the road. For four years my house was the only one on the road. On opening day the second year I parked my truck in the middle of the road with a sheet of plywood leaning against it that read "No Hunting, Private Property." I parked so there was no way around it, or so I thought. At about 4am I woke to the sound of a diesel engine, I thought he turned around and left. Nope! Drove through my front yard over my roses, knocking over a lighthouse ornament and crushing a line of yard lights. I met him on his way out with a shotgun and my badge clipped to my belt. He decided to pay for the damages and never return in exchange for me not charging him with criminal trespass. Turns out he was the local head of the school board. That and an idiot.

The next summer on opening morning of bow season I woke up, poured myself a cup of coffee and walked out on my deck wearing only my briefs. I found two guys in full camo using my hot tub to steady their spotting scope. That conversation went something like "you live here?" "No, I was wandering around out here in my underwear and decided to rob this house, only thing of value I was able to find was this cup of coffee. Any more dumb ass questions before you leave?"

After the other lots had homes built that stuff all but stopped.

Don't even get me started on poachers. We've had them drive ATVs onto our property, cutting down fences as they go! And most of the time these asshats are intoxicated besides, so they frequently wound animals without killing, or at least properly. And ever year they dump deer carcasses, intact but for the backstraps, in our woods to attract coyotes. I think I'd just have to eviscerate someone if I found them camped out on -my- deck, shooting at -my- deer on -my- land!

Are the gun control laws in Mexico more relaxed? Do you need any sort of permit or can you just bring in your guns?
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Oh man, sounds like a nightmare. I can't believe people would be so disrespectful of private property like that. Can the police not do anything about it?
-----Added 19/9/2008 at 12 : 06 : 40-----
What the hell man? What's wrong with these people? It sounds like quite the hassle trying to protect your own property. Is it fenced? Have you considered dogs maybe? Oh man, I want to have property like that someday but if it's that much of a hassle, then I don't know if it's worth it.

Owning a personal gun in Mexico is near impossible. Done state by state. Can't even apply for a permit here.

Bull elk create a thing we call "bull fever" people will do almost anything to "get" their elk. I have a bullet hole in my house to prove it.

Yes, I own dogs, pretty much alway have. Problem with dogs and hunters is the dogs are not good for their "hunt" and the dogs aren't good at shooting back. And yes they'd would shoot your dog if it meant them getting their elk.

Yeah, it irked me too but I left it alone because it's pretty obvious that anybody with extensive facial jewelry who wants to open carry is a showboating dumbass destined for the Darwin Awards. Really hard to respect someone who turns their face into a junkyard... and really hard to not target someone who turns their face into a junkyard AND has a Glock on their hip in a as-close-to-brandishing-without-doing-it manner.


See, I don't like open carry because it negates the surprise factor in favor of the deterrence factor... which is always significantly less due to social norms about weapons these days. People fear guns. Even "good" (stupid) people.

I disagree with your 15-people-snowball-shootout point. I've served in the military for a few minutes in the sand... had rockets, mortars, and 7.62 rounds fly at me... and the first thing I think about is taking cover and getting out of said location, not shooting back at a target that is most likely in a fortified position and / or moving out in a heartbeat.

Gun or no gun on their hip... I'd reckon that most reasonable people who hear gun shots would do the natural thing: get the hell outta Dodge.

It's one thing to draw your gun for yourself. It's a whole 'nuther to draw it for someone else.

I don't draw my civilian weapons for strangers. It's not worth my life.

...

Perhaps concealed carry is like a bizarre game of life-or-death tag where you try to one-up the other guy with a bigger weapon right before he tags you with his own.

Reminds me of that one Yosemite Sam vs. Bugs Bunny cartoon I saw so long ago.

like the man said: "open carry is for cowboys..."

Are you referring to me as a Cowboy?

:thumbsup:

I don't know how I feel about this... I can't really see anything positive coming from it. I'm a gun owner and just purchased my first handgun. When I hike and camp, I will most definitely open carry but that's it.

I've already given my opinion on this in a different thread but I'll chime in anyways. I also live in Az where it's legal to open carry with no permit. I used to open carry my dad's pistol when I was on my way to shoot. When my parents moved though, they took their guns and I haven't purchased my own yet. I'll probably buy a 9mm pretty soon and I'll open carry that in many situations. As a woman it's hard to stuff something in my pants without people noticing. Also, when riding my bike it's just easier to have the pistol on my hip in case I get pulled over or something. I carry as a self preservation thing, being a woman who has been attacked will make you a bit paranoid.

There are a lot of arguments on both sides of the open carry debate. My opinion is that the "surprise" factor or concealed carry doesn't function to ward of criminals because not nearly enough people carry. Open carry is obvious, it says "I have a gun, don't fuck with me" and some people (myself included) like that. Then there's the whole "it's my right" argument and I dunno how much I believe that. Some cops do freak out when you tell them you have a gun, which is hilarious to me because if I was a criminal why would I disclose a weapon? I can understand people being paranoid about guns but I think people who aren't used to being around them have a much more negative view of guns than they should.

I don't think I would 'open carry'. What if someone got the wrong idea? What if you walked into a bank, gun visible, and the bank teller thought you were going to rob the joint? I'd hide it, displaying it makes it easier for people to see you are armed, and I would be concerned that someone may make a grab for it.

Well, clearly there are many environments that you wouldn't want to open carry in but I don't think that someone seeing you're armed is always a bad thing. And far as people grabbing for it goes, chances are slim that anyone would risk it, but that's what training is for.

My Baby Eagle is just like an American Express Card,I don't leave home with out it. Having a consealed carry permit just clears up some of the gray areas.

Aaah, ignorance is bliss.

Check it out: Concealed carry rules as described by state law dictate locations where, what, when / how you can and cannot carry your weapon. A concealed carry license is not a do-it-all gun card. Not even close. You cannot carry a firearm in banks, schools, government offices, and establishments that serve alcohol in a sit-down-to-drink fashion (bars), concealed carry or otherwise (open carry).

So... as to your worry... you don't have to stress about taking it into a bank: it is illegal to do so.

Common sense also helps... which is what a issuing and using a concealed weapon license is all about.

...

Which makes me feel like we should regulate people instead of inanimate objects.

Guns don't make bad decisions.

...

I heartily endorse anybody who is interested to take the concealed carry course that may be offered in their state. I'd recommend it even if you have no desire to own a firearm or use one for personal protection outside your house.

This is not correct. You CAN carry in a bank. It is a private institution, not a government one. If the bank has no policy or problem with a person carrying, you may do so. Some states also have no law that prevents anyone from carrying a weapon in a drinking establishment, your own state is one of them. The only limitation to carrying in a restaraunt in Virginia is that you MUST carry it openly. There are no concealed weapons allowed in a restaraunt that serves alcohol.

One should not have to dictate personal behavior that doesn't directly affect others simply because a person FEELS scared around guns. We don't do it for people that are afraid of blacks or hispanics, do we?

You think people who fear guns are equal to xenophobias? :orly:

ummm, no. I think people who fear guns have irrational and illogical fears that may denote something else is wrong with their psyche.

It's seem odd to me you'd use a racial analogy as an example for fear of guns.
I guess the problem I'm having is we have societal norms and community norms. If I were walking in rural Oregon along a hiking trail I'd think nothing of seeing someone carrying a side arm. If I were at a concert in downtown Portland Oregon seeing someone with a side arm would give me pause. Seeing a person of another race in either situation wouldn't cause me a second thought.

I'm also not so sure people fear guns. I think some people fear people with guns.

Aren't political discussions about guns supposed to be in politics?

I think this could go either way. It's kind of a cross over discussion, of sorts. I see no reason to move it now.

I wasn't really asking to move it, it just seems like it was starting to jump into a more political/social discussion.

I understand where you're coming from. I didn't think you were asking for it to be moved. Some discussions are more fluid then others. There's every possibility if this were in politics someone would ask why it's not in weaponry.

I was just letting you know why after two pages of discussion I was just leaving it alone and letting the conversation continue.

tully..

did the guns deter you from doing your job? ie. issuing tickets? what was your reasoning for not issuing tickets?

No the guns didn't deter me, just got my attention. I worked in a very rural area. Most of the time I simply asked if the weapon was loaded. If the person told me no I left it at that. Now if I pulled someone over and asked them about the weapon and they respond with 'Why the fuck did you pull me over? I pay your fucking wages and my gun is none of your fucking business." That person's getting a ticket for every infraction I can nail them for and could end up in custody if they do something completely stupid.

I didn't issue tickets because for the most part people were driving on empty roads and not driving in a dangerous fashion. Somewhere along the line tickets went from being a safety issue to a revenue source. That general philosophy seems misplaced to me. Giving someone a $200 ticket for going 11 miles over the speed limit on a empty country road is simply an attempt to increase funding not improve traffic safety, IMO. Giving people a ticket who roll through a stop sign at 4am in the middle of no where, after clearly looking both ways, falls in that category too. It I could see they didn't even look for traffic I might well write them up or at least stop and warn. Face it most people drive 10-15 miles over. Most people roll trough the stop sign at their corner if they work at 4am. To me it seemed like a tax on people being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My use of a racial analogy is spot in, IMO. A gun is an inanimate object that doesn't do anything unless a person acts with it. A person is a person be they black, white, red, or yellow and only that particular person (no matter the color) dictates how people treat them simply by their own actions and demeanor. Nothing more, Nothing less.

To better answer your own questions, please explain why in the hiking trail scenario, a person wearing a sidearm means nothing but the same person, wearing the same sidearm, doing nothing more than standing and listening to music gives you pause?

Simply because one looks out of place to me and one doesn't. If I went to a auto shop and saw someone carrying a crow bar I wouldn't think of it. Same guy walking down the street with the crow bar would make me pause.

so does a police officer wearing his gun make you pause? i'm guessing not.

what about in states like virginia or arizona? Open carry is a state constitutional right and perfectly legal. Would you pause upon seeing someone wearing a gun who is not a police officer in either of those states?

Not unless I knew them personally and thought they were hot heads who would be better suited in another occupation.


I don't have much experience in those states. Haven't been to Va. My time in Az was mostly around Sedona. Don't remember seeing anyone practicing open carry. Had I seen someone doing so out and about on a trail it wouldn't have caused me any concern. In a bar where alcohol is being served, yeah I'd find another bar. Firearms and alcohol are a bad mix IMO and one of the main reasons I switched to bow hunting.

so cops carrying guns, ok. citizens carrying weapons, not ok. the next question would be do you trust people you CAN'T see wearing a gun?


I didn't bring a bar or alcohol in to the equation, did you do so to paint a bad judgement aspect to it? what if it was walmart? or mcdonalds? would you then go to another walmart or mcdonalds?

I don't remember saying "citizens carrying weapons, not ok." I remember saying seeing people practicing open carry in certain situations give me pause.

For the most part I trust people, whether they're carrying a gun or not. Though I would be more watchful of a person openly carrying a firearm. But thats simply due to the fact that I know they have the potential to reach out and hurt me and those around me. If I saw something in their behavior that caused me concern I'd leave.



I brought up the alcohol/bar scenario as an example of a situation where I would be concerned enough to remove myself if I saw firearms being openly carried. Again I just don't think they mix well.

In Wal-Mart or Mickey "D's"? In downtown Phoenix, probably not. In downtown Chicago or New York City, yes.

ok, i take this to mean that you look for behavior patterns instead of just wearing a gun. perfectly fine i think.



I agree. I'd be looking for someplace else to be myself.

considering the gun laws in chi and nyc, i'd be surprised they hadn't been arrested yet.

updating on open carry in Texas.

Push for Open Carry Gun Law Hits Texas | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth


Since 1996, people who want to carry a gun in Texas have had to apply for a license and conceal it in public, but some said the rules are too strict for a state known for its love of arms.

Now, there is a new push to loosen gun laws in Texas. A group of gun advocates are hoping the next legislature will consider a bill that would allow people to carry guns out in the open.

Texas is one of just six states requiring people to carry their handguns concealed. The law means people have to be licensed and pass a training course.

It's something gun advocates like Duane Suddeth don't like.

"So, for a person to exercise their right to self-defense, they needs to shell out about $225 or more," said Suddeth.

Suddeth is fighting for an open carry law in Texas; something 44 other states already have.

It would do away with all the fees and mean you could carry a gun on your hip for all the world to see.

"Criminals are not going to want to target a person who has the ability to fight back with lethal force," said Suddeth.

"Ever since this country was founded, the legitimate way to carry was open, so people knew what you were doing was legitimate, you had a gun and you're not trying to hide anything," said Daniel Vanhoose, employee at DFW Gun Range,

Most gun owners obviously support the law, but some said they won't benefit much from it.

"I think I would still conceal mine, because I think I would feel more safe," said Crystal Ellenbrook.

For many, like Louis Alexander, who don't carry guns, there's a concern that an open carry law would mean a return to the wild west.

"People walking around with guns in the wide open, they're just ready for a challenge. You know? I'm going to get you before you get me," said Alexander.

Interesting article, but this Duane Suddeth guy sounds like a nut job.

He's crazy insane brother. :eek:

Probably scarred by years of being a misguided child of Uncle Sam.

It seems like it would be difficult to get the necessary momentum to get an open carry law.

Do you think you have a good chance of pulling it off, or are you fighting the good fight as part of a more comprehensive activism portfolio?

Good luck either way.

It was difficult getting started. Not too many legislators showed any interest because we weren't the TSRA and we couldn't get the TSRA to support us. Once the billboard went up in Austin and the news articles came out, regular texans took notice and the amount of correspondence to legislators has been immense. It might even have more support than TSRAs concealed campus law they want passed.

What we want with open carry is no license and no extra restrictions like PA, WI, or KY has, meaning that we don't want to be told that open carry is legal but prohibited in Dallas, or that we can carry openly but in a vehicle it must be in the glove box unless you have a CHL.

Thanks. I think we have a great shot because it now has the governers support.
-----Added 2/12/2008 at 05 : 52 : 57-----
knows no fear after being a misguided child. Thats what makes him unpredictable and scary. total time bomb waiting to go off.

I find it disconcerting that the Police chief suggests to IGNORE the AG's orders. Police officers deciding how to interpret the laws.... :(

Wow that quote from the Milwaukee Police Chief is amazing, it's almost seems like something you would read on April Fool's day.

So he is telling his officers to "put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide if the person has a right to carry it."

So using this logic, whenever they see someone driving an automobile in public they should also force the citizen to the ground and decide whether or not they can legally drive it. After all, automobiles are extremely dangerous and kill thousands of people every year.

Step 1: Move to Milwaukee and carry openly.
Step 2: Get "put on the ground"
Step 3: Profit.

I've had a CCW for over 10 years and I carry daily. But, I think it is rude to open carry and tactically unsound. Just my thoughts...

Im inclined to agree. I've spent a little bit of time around firearms and I am comfortable with them but thats because I know my own abilities and limitations. I just don't trust strangers walking around with guns. A random dude diddy-bopping around town with a pistol on his hip would make me (and most people) uncomfortable enough that we would leave the scene. To put it another way, open carry is a pretty quick way to put a lot of people on edge while drawing attention to yourself.

While I totally support the right to carry openly, I have never done it in my personal (as opposed to professional) life as a courtesy to the folks around me.

this. I may have to visit home.....real soon.


Though this may be just a lot of 'bluster' for ol' chief Flynn, the people in wisconsin that I know will be giving the chief and his 'troops' notice that his flagrant abuse of authority could lead to some very tragic endings.......for both sides.