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SSJTWIZTA 05-29-2008 08:33 PM

Pistol- home defense
 
okay, i know most say a shotgun in best for home defense. The thing is i have every shot gun ranging from a 4-10 to a 3 and a half inch magnum. I currently only own 1 pistol, its a 1970-something smith and weston .22 semi auto.

alot of people have different variants on the subject. the thing is, that im a pretty small guy. the last time i checked im 5'11 and 140 lbs.

i was thinknig about buying a Five-Seven...until i seen the price tag.

what would anyone recommend thats a 1 shot stop.

i know that a hit from a .22 is better than a miss from a .45, but im not worried about a miss. i have plenty of time to practice, as i do with my .22. the only problem i have with my .22 is the knock down power. ive considered everything for 38 specials to 45 acps, and i still cant seem to make up my mind.

any help would be awesome.

please remember im a small guy and i wouldnt want anything to large, but a barrel long enough for me to sustain accuracy over a nice distance would be great, as i also like to shoot for practical purposes.

Willravel 05-29-2008 08:42 PM

Is the S&W 686 4", .357 Magnum too big?

140 lbs? Get a sammich.

Martian 05-29-2008 08:51 PM

I like that the first two replies are from pacifists.

The Five-Seven (or Five-seveN, if you prefer) looks impressive on paper but in real life it kind of sucks.

I'd suggest something 9mm or .40 S&W. Realistically, you're unlikely to face any threats within your own home that either of those won't be able to put down, and it's less of a bang than some of the bigger guns.

I'll leave recommendations of specific models to those who are better versed in such things, but I will point out that for reliability purposes a revolver beats a semi-auto every time.

smoore 05-29-2008 10:26 PM

I've been using .45ACP since dinosaurs roamed the earth. I hear the .40S&W has just as much or more stopping power in a smaller overall shell. I don't trust 9mm, there's a reason cops put a whole magazine into a guy and I think that reason is they don't trust 9mm either.

Glock makes good weapons. They are military grade. I never have liked them but there's that whole dinosaurs thing.

telekinetic 05-29-2008 10:43 PM

My 90lbs girlfriend could keep a full clip of .40 in the black from 21 feet, so you should have no problems with it.

Bear Cub 05-30-2008 04:37 AM

If you can handle shotguns no problem, you can handle the kick from a .45 ACP. Hell, my girlfriend is 5'5", 120# and she can handle the .45.

samcol 05-30-2008 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel
Is the S&W 686 4", .357 Magnum too big?

140 lbs? Get a sammich.

Will is giving home protection advice on firearms choice, and a great reccomendation at that? Oh lawd....

The larger frame .357's aren't bad at all, it's the snub nose ones that really suck to shoot imo.

SSJTWIZTA 05-30-2008 04:43 PM

get a sammich, haha. i could out eat you, buddy :p

9mm is out. ive never really liked 9's.

.357 seems like a nice choice...if i want to blow the poor fellows arm off. ow well, if they're in my house with a sack full of my belongings they probably deserve it.

i need to get my hands on a .40 and see how i like 'em. so far thats what im leaning towards. hell, i expected them to kick like a mule, but from what i hear so far i should be fine.

Willravel 05-30-2008 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
get a sammich, haha. i could out eat you, buddy :p

I have no doubt of that (I've got fat genes!!!).
Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
9mm is out. ive never really liked 9's.

I had a 9mm go through my calf. It hurt like a bitch, but I'm VERY glad it wasn't a bigger caliber.
Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
.357 seems like a nice choice...if i want to blow the poor fellows arm off. ow well, if they're in my house with a sack full of my belongings they probably deserve it.

Generally, by my understanding, one is taught to "shoot to kill". I'd suggest, if they're just stealing your crap, you point it at them. If you're in danger, then you pull the trigger.

Just my opinion.

SSJTWIZTA 05-30-2008 08:05 PM

and a great opinion it is.

im not just going to blast someone for the hell of it.

well, like i said before, its time to find someone with a .40 that will let me fire it.

telekinetic 05-30-2008 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
get a sammich, haha. i could out eat you, buddy :p

9mm is out. ive never really liked 9's.

.357 seems like a nice choice...if i want to blow the poor fellows arm off. ow well, if they're in my house with a sack full of my belongings they probably deserve it.

i need to get my hands on a .40 and see how i like 'em. so far thats what im leaning towards. hell, i expected them to kick like a mule, but from what i hear so far i should be fine.

If you are getting it soley for home defense, (taking concealability out of the question) and are worried about kick, get a full sized steel frame pistol. Poly frame guns kick more...the heavier the gun, the less of the shock you'll feel. The exception to that is the 22C and 23C by glock (full sized and mid-size .40)...they have ports on the top of the front of the barrel to minimize kick up.

SSJTWIZTA 05-30-2008 11:36 PM

yup, im not carrying this anywhere.

thanks for your 2 cents twisted. something else i need to look into

smoore 05-31-2008 12:28 AM

There is something to be said about a lower power cartridge than a magnum, collateral damage.

Hell, you could use a .44 magnum but what happens when you miss? That thing is going somewhere. Consider that in home defense you're typically dealing with an unarmored assailant. You don't want rounds going willy-nilly around your neighborhood. .45 and .40 are heavy and slow, the energy is ablated quickly when the bullet encounters something... anything.

MSD 05-31-2008 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
i know that a hit from a .22 is better than a miss from a .45, but im not worried about a miss. i have plenty of time to practice, as i do with my .22. the only problem i have with my .22 is the knock down power. ive considered everything for 38 specials to 45 acps, and i still cant seem to make up my mind.

Anything can drop someone, but I'd stay with the .38 to .45 range. Don't go below that because if you defend yourself and are brought to trial, it's a lot easier to explain to a jury of laymen that you needed a second shot of .45 than it is to explain that he really didn't fall down until he had consumed a quarter of his body weight 25ACP.
Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore
I've been using .45ACP since dinosaurs roamed the earth. I hear the .40S&W has just as much or more stopping power in a smaller overall shell. I don't trust 9mm, there's a reason cops put a whole magazine into a guy and I think that reason is they don't trust 9mm either.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2...parisonsz7.jpg

Also,
Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian
The Five-Seven (or Five-seveN, if you prefer) looks impressive on paper but in real life it kind of sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian
The Five-Seven (or Five-seveN, if you prefer) looks impressive on paper but in real life it kind of sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian
The Five-Seven (or Five-seveN, if you prefer) looks impressive on paper but in real life it kind of sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore
There is something to be said about a lower power cartridge than a magnum, collateral damage.

Hell, you could use a .44 magnum but what happens when you miss? That thing is going somewhere. Consider that in home defense you're typically dealing with an unarmored assailant. You don't want rounds going willy-nilly around your neighborhood. .45 and .40 are heavy and slow, the energy is ablated quickly when the bullet encounters something... anything.

Anything that is powerful enough to stop an attacker is powerful enough to penetrate common building materials and still have lethal amounts of kinetic energy. Shot placement is what will protect your neighbors, not the bullet you use.

SSJTWIZTA 05-31-2008 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore
There is something to be said about a lower power cartridge than a magnum, collateral damage.

Hell, you could use a .44 magnum but what happens when you miss? That thing is going somewhere. Consider that in home defense you're typically dealing with an unarmored assailant. You don't want rounds going willy-nilly around your neighborhood. .45 and .40 are heavy and slow, the energy is ablated quickly when the bullet encounters something... anything.


i live in bumfuck Ga, there is no neighborhood.

and around here, odds are they will be armed. you trust me on that one. this place is fucken' assed backwards when it comes to certain things.

the best way i can describe this place is...have you ever seen squidbillys?

MSD, neat stuff. It looks like a .40 IS my best bet so far.

thanks so far, everyone.

Martian 05-31-2008 11:14 AM

MSD, why did you quote me three times in a row?

smoore 05-31-2008 12:02 PM

unarmored -- no vest :)

MSD... interesting, I assume that's ballistics gel? Where can I read the accompanying article?

Willravel 05-31-2008 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian
MSD, why did you quote me three times in a row?

Because you're important.

Plan9 06-01-2008 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel
Is the S&W 686 4", .357 Magnum too big?

You didn't just say that. You're WillRavel for chrissakes.

Martian 06-01-2008 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
Pfft, my left nut produces more bang than a .25 ACP.

That sounds downright uncomfortable for your lady friend.

Plan9 06-01-2008 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian
That sounds downright uncomfortable for your lady friend.

She takes it like a champ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore
Where can I read the accompanying article?

Since I mention it in every gun thread:

www.TheBoxOfTruth.com

Not the same test, but everybody that does gun stuff at TFP should read this site.

============================================

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
they have ports on the top of the front of the barrel to minimize kick up.

...nice ports that may deafen / blind you during hours-of-darkness home defense situations (mileage may vary based on ammo, my experience with Glock **Cs has been horrible).

smoore 06-01-2008 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

That seems to be a banner farm now.

Willravel 06-01-2008 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
You didn't just say that. You're WillRavel for chrissakes.

If Jesus wasn't just an imaginary superhero with a lot of good press... he'd cry for you. Ya know, as your lord and savior.

Heh... I should buy WillRavel a Raven .25. HAHAHA.

I also give religious advice. And capitalist advice. And menstrual advice.

The nice thing about being the author of my own moral code is I have no issues with hypocrisy when it comes to advice.

BTW, the Raven is so small and stubby it looks like it should be covered in fur and be fighting the Empire in Return of the Jedi.

telekinetic 06-01-2008 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore
That seems to be a banner farm now.

The URL doesn't have a V in it. it's http://www.theboxotruth.com/

And cromps, you could be right...I've only shot the C's in range environment to evaluate kick, never anything dark or tactical. :thumbsup:

edit for clarification/full disclosure. I'm not going to be getting the compensated option when I buy my Glock. I weigh 100lbs more than SSJ, however. Even at 'fighting weight' if I ever get back down to it, I'll still have 60 lbs and 2 inches on him.

MSD 06-01-2008 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian
MSD, why did you quote me three times in a row?

Because I'm a reformed 5.7 fanboy and what you said is valid enough to be repeated. I originally had it quoted 7 times, but I thought that would be a bit obnoxious.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin
You already own a handgun. That's a plus. Check it out: .22 LR CCI Quikshok ammunition is rather effective as a self-defense load.

As long as you hit soft tissue, I'll agree.
Quote:

Pfft, my left nut produces more bang than a .25 ACP. His current .22 has more potential than a .25 ACP.
My point exactly.

Slims 06-01-2008 08:06 PM

Any 9mm, .40 cal, or .45, loaded with quality ammunition will meet your needs.

From what you have put forward I would suggest a 9mm. When loaded with quality ammunition it performs nearly as well as .40 cal or .45, plus it is easier to shoot and cheaper to shoot, both make for better, more frequent practice time which may help you in a fight.

Plus, you are less likely to develop bad habits from shooting a 9mm than a larger caliber.

Oh, I wouldn't recommend .22 for home defense. it is surely better than nothing, but the round itself, being a rimfire is less reliable than any centerfire cartridge, and the terminal ballistics of a .22 are iffy...If you are shooting at someone it is presumably because they are a threat to you, which means they are likely either waving a knife, pointing a gun, or whatnot. The odds are good their hands (and forearms) will be in front of them and your bullet will need to punch through whatever is in front of them without being deflected or stopped.

Greg

smoore 06-02-2008 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
The URL doesn't have a V in it. it's http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Sweet, thanks. I just clicked.

Plan9 06-02-2008 06:14 PM

Nice save, Twisted. Damn kids and their 'O This and 'O That.

...

Point: Use what you have. Upgrade if you can. Master yourself before you depend on a tool to save your life.

wraithhibn 06-02-2008 06:17 PM

Get one of these:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/38991

For $450 you get a good gun, and they have the .40 for the same price. Either way get Hollow Points for Self Defense.

Plan9 06-03-2008 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wraithhibn

S&W M&P. Plastic wondergun just like everything else on the market. Does a great job. Get one of those. Or a Glock or Springfield XD or a used Sig or a Ruger or a... hell, they're all the same. Find something comfy and within your price limitations.

...

Or maybe get a full size double action revolver because you can leave it loaded forever and if a round fails to fire (somehow) you just squeeze the trigger again and it rotates over to an entirely fresh chamber in the cylinder.


Oh, and they're pretty.


...

Guns are like women. Every man has his type.

Key to success is confidence in yourself, physical fitness, situational awareness, and plenty of practice with your gun at your place at odd hours.

Stating the obvious: Self defense isn't buying something that goes bang. It is an entire frame of mind.

SSJTWIZTA 06-03-2008 09:14 PM

holy hell, i have some major thinking to do. i appreciate everyones advice.

the thing about the specialty ammo is that i dont always want to have to have a clip full of Black Tallon or Hydroshock ammunition lying next or in my fire arm, id rather just have something i know i can feel comfortable with.

one more thing...i have no experience with a revolver, never even fired one. besides the whole bad ammo or no jam situation, what would be the advantage.

and p.s.
I think ill pass on a .357, thanks :)

Edit: i KNOW this has been asked alot, but i was concerned about my small size. thanks for picking up on that.

moot1337 06-04-2008 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
the thing about the specialty ammo is that i dont always want to have to have a clip full of Black Tallon or Hydroshock ammunition lying next or in my fire arm, id rather just have something i know i can feel comfortable with.

The thing is, if you're getting a handgun for self defense in a place where a shotgun or rifle would be available, you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage. With low velocity weapons like pistols/shotguns, the temporary and permanent cavities are scantly larger than the expanded diameter of the projectile, which means that it takes a direct hit to the vitals or CNS of the target for neutralization. Shotguns solve the problem with multiple projectiles, but pistols are a whole different animal, with shot placement being the all-important factor. That said, penetration is the next most important, followed closely by expansion - being able to reach the vitals (12-18" of penetration in flesh) and gaining a larger chance of hitting them with a grazing shot.

If you plan on getting a handgun and not loading it up with a specific self-defense ammunition, there really isn't any point - you'd be much better served by any of your shotguns. When your life's on the line, why bother using anything but what's the most likely to neutralize the threat quickly and efficiently? SD ammunition is tailored to be the best stuff to use in a SD situation, even using low-flash powders to minimize the blinding of the muzzle flash in the darkness. This is not to mention that there have been a world of advances in jacketed hollowpoint bullet designs in the last 10-20 years, lessening the performance disparity between 9mm and 40/45/357. Check it out.

In summary, get something you can enjoy and afford practicing with. Nothing matters more than where you put those shots under pressure, and the ability to operate your weapon under the same. If you get an auto, practice clearing jams and malfunctions. Practice a ton with cheap FMJ ammo, then put enough SD ammo through your gun to ensure reliability. And don't bother loading up with anything other than SD ammo when your life may depend upon it.

Best,
m00t

Plan9 06-04-2008 06:33 AM

Once again, m00t is a gun guru. Listen to the man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
the thing about the specialty ammo is that i dont always want to have to have a clip full of Black Tallon or Hydroshock ammunition lying next or in my fire arm, id rather just have something i know i can feel comfortable with.

Way of the world, bro. The trade off of ammunition. Car analogy: You can't expect "Ford" ammo to perform like "Mercedes" ammo... you use the Ford ammo during the week (training, popping cans) and keep the Mercedes ammo for "oh shit meth addicts in my house." Unless you're filthy rich and can afford high quality ammo all the time or you're willing to risk the safety of yourself and others to less-than-best ammunition.

You said this is a home defense piece, right? Take it to the range and shoot standard ammo... then bring it home, clean it, and load up the good stuff for keeping it in that bedside drawer. Simple enough, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
one more thing...i have no experience with a revolver, never even fired one. besides the whole bad ammo or no jam situation, what would be the advantage.

A: They're easy to use. They have 3 moving parts you need to concern yourself with: the hammer, the trigger, and the cylinder release.
B: They're reliable. No magazines, rotating chamber means you can simply squeeze your way out of a failed cartridge.
C: They're safe. Open the cylinder and it magically becomes a paperweight. You can see into the gun from the side (between the back of the cylinder and the strike plate to see if it's loaded).
D: You can hit people with them and fire them inside bags. Hitting somebody with a revolver is much more effect than trying to pistolwhip somebody with a plastic Glock. You can also fire a revolver inside bags in emergency situations. They don't have a slide and can't jam due to lack of fore-aft room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
I think ill pass on a .357, thanks

Don't be a wuss. Try it. You'll like it. It's rather comforting.

smoore 06-04-2008 01:59 PM

Ditto on SSJTWIZTA's revolver comments. Revolvers are the simplest form of repeating firearm. Ultra reliable with very few moving parts.

Plus, with a .357mag you can go plinking with .38 special rounds... much cheaper. Sounds like it's time to head to a rental range.

The_Dunedan 06-04-2008 07:34 PM

Also, if you choose an automatic, test it with your intended carry ammo. This can be expensive, but some semi-auto pistols are finicky about hollowpoints. Find one that works EVERY SINGLE TIME. This is your life we're talking about here, don't take chances on an ammo issue when you need 102% reliability.

SSJTWIZTA 06-04-2008 10:35 PM

im starting to like this revolver thing. 6 shots should be plenty.

i guess it is in my best interest to get specialty ammo, i had no idea really. i thought as long as i got a good hit, like lets say in the hips or chest i should be fine.

this whole .357 can take a .38 special round really appeals to me. i heard this before, but it was from a "gangster" type of guy, so i regarded it as bullshit.

i dont know why i dont just get a shorter barrel for one of my shot guns like cromp suggested. i guess i just want something small that i can keep in a drawer or next to me. maybe even a side arm in case one of these crazy Ga hillbilly robbers decides to shoot back.

law enforcement isnt really up to par around here, so i just want to make sure i have all my bases covered. Shed out 300 bucks to the sheriff and you could probably get away with murder.

The_Dunedan 06-05-2008 05:28 PM

A .38 or .357 loaded with a nasty-ass hollowpoint like a Golden Saber or something similar will solve -most- self-defense related problems. An automatic gives you more capacity, and a longarm gives you greater range and MUCH greater power, but a 6-shooter will still get you through most touchy spots.

Put it this way, if 6 rounds of .357 pushing 124-grain JHPs of some suitable flavour won't solve your problem, you've got SERIOUS problems and it's probably time to reach for a 12-bore or .308.

SSJTWIZTA 06-05-2008 11:50 PM

haha no my problems arent that great. and i already have a "12 bore" and a .308 hunting rifle :)

The_Dunedan 06-07-2008 05:31 PM

Cool, you're well on your way.

Now you just need a .308 battle rifle, and a 5.56mm or 5.45mm assault carbine, and at least one really zippy .30 for long-range work, and....;-)

longbough 06-15-2008 09:03 AM

For "one stop shot" I'd go with nothing less than .40, .45 or .357.
A .38 or 9mm barely cuts it - I say this based on my experience as a physician who treats a unique population that happens to have a lot of gunshot wounds. If you have to go with .38 or 9mm then I'd use a JHP P+ defense round like Hydra-Shok or Cor-bon. And forget about .380, .32, .22 etc.

If you don't realistically plan to practice much I'd go with the revolver option because of its mechanical simplicity. That being said - nothing wrong with an autoloader provided that you train to know your weapon well.

Personally I have a Glock 21SF .45 (13 round capacity) with a surefire light (very helpful to have a light and gun in one package) and a lasermax internal guiderod laser. I wasn't a fan of lasers at all for a carry gun - but in a home you're more likely to find yourself in an "atypical" shooting situation so it's nice to have that option. The lasermax adds no extra bulk or weight.

Church 06-15-2008 06:00 PM

I'm probably walking into a shitstorm here, but I just happened upon this thread. I never go into this forum anyway. My question is, where do you live that you feel you need to protect yourself with such a powerful gun? I mean I've never known anyone thats had a home invasion, and even if that even happened, the robbers would just be in and out, not interested in hurting anybody. Basically what I'm asking is, what happened to the good old bat?

MSD 06-16-2008 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Church
Basically what I'm asking is, what happened to the good old bat?

Don't bring a bat to a gunfight. Armed robberies are a lot more common here than in Canada, and a lot of people who do it, especially in urban areas, are gang members who aren't hesitant to kill you.

The_Dunedan 06-16-2008 05:06 PM

"Hot" home invasions, where the home is occupied when the bad guys show up, end up with the occupant dead in an alarmingly high percentage of such cases. This is especially true in urban areas, where the perps are frequently members of gangs. Trust me, a bunch of MS-13 'bangers aren't going to think twice about smoking an entire family to keep things quiet while they give the house a more complete going-over. They're notorious for it, actually. Frequently people like this are -very- interested in hurting other people, especially women. Gang-rape is a frequent corollary to home invasion in the United States; again, especially when members of criminal gangs are involved.

Home invasion, like house fires, is rare. The rareity of house fires doesn't mean it's not a smart idea to keep a fire-extinguisher around: the "one percent" arguement isn't terribly persuasive to those unfortunate enough to find themselves -in- that 1%.

longbough 06-16-2008 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Church
I'm probably walking into a shitstorm here, but I just happened upon this thread. I never go into this forum anyway. My question is, where do you live that you feel you need to protect yourself with such a powerful gun? I mean I've never known anyone thats had a home invasion, and even if that even happened, the robbers would just be in and out, not interested in hurting anybody. Basically what I'm asking is, what happened to the good old bat?

I am a practicing physician in the California State prison system. My perspective is based on my experience working for the past 3 years. During my time I've gotten to know a few things about the criminal mentality. I've done so with everyday interviews and when I am involved with the staff psychologists in order to explore possible realms of rehabilitation.

There is a perfectly rational explanation as to why one would use a gun for home defense.

The idea of having a gun isn't to stop someone from robbing the house - material possessions aren't worth the risk of death or killing another person. A gun is useful in the event that a home invader is looking for more (e.g. rape) or is seeking to do harm to someone in your house. Believe it or not the majority of people who do home invasions are prepared to do violence at an instant - and some of them even enjoy it (that's not just a right-wing fantasy - it's true. It has to do with exercising a sense of empowerment) Many of my patients tell me that they never feared the police at all (for home invasions) since the criminal is gone by the time the police arrive.

What they DO fear is a big dog and/or the possibility that the homeowner is armed with a gun. Yes, there ARE people who choose to rape and kill for pleasure. I have met many of them. In my own home I choose to keep a gun in the house to defend my loved ones. It doesn't mean I'll shoot at every shadow I see - like anything else you need training and education to use a tool properly. A gun is a tool.

There's nothing wrong with a baseball bat - but a gun I find to be more useful. The majority of seasoned criminals aren't impressed with a baseball-bat wielding homeowner. In fact many of them aren't intimidated by guns, either. Have you ever swung a bat in an enclosed space? Do you know how to follow up after a wild swing? You choose your weapons. I choose mine.

Why a "powerful" gun? The most effective caliber is one that stops the subject with as few shots as possible. That's a practical consideration. I have seen many gunshot injuries in my line of work - including wounds inflicted by "gangbangers" and cops. Through that experience I have formed my opinions on what's an effective caliber.

For what it's worth I had an uncle who owned a grocery store in another state. One day someone tried to rob him so he just gave the man all the cash in the register. The robber shot him in the face for no reason. My uncle died that day. I'm not saying a gun would even have saved his life - who knows? The message is that there ARE people out there who do kill for no reason. It's hard to conceive if you've never seen it personally - but by then it's too late. I know of many families who only believe this principle after it's too late.

In any case, if you're interested in a logical explanation as to why an intelligent, educated and peace-loving person (like myself) would own a gun then please read the following link to this article I wrote:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=101330

Kingruv 06-28-2008 09:27 PM

You've been given a platter load to think about.
I have to give Crompsin a hearty Amen again.
I've read your replies to what he said but I would urge you to re-read his advice on light. He is right on about all of it but his issue on light pushes him over 2000 score on the SAT's and maybe a 170 IQ.
At night it can make all the difference and even in daylight, some lights these days can stop a situation before the trigger is pulled.
Some of the better lights these days can temporarliy incapacitate someone caught in the eyes.
My vote goes for a 357 with 4 to 6" barrel with a variety of loads from 38's and snake shotshells to deer slayer carbine rounds.
Fewer guns have more versatility in loading except maybe a 30'06.

Safe sleeping to you.

SERPENT7 07-01-2008 02:30 PM

Training has been mentioned several times, and I would just like to say that IMHO the 'Mozambique Drill' (2 shots centermass, followed by 1 in the head) is the most effective way to stop a motivated adult.

The FBI did a ballistics effectiveness study, and found that even after having their heart destroyed, about half of all suspects were still able to return fire. Some of them were even able to incapacitate or even kill the agent that shot them. This should underscore the importance of accuracy, and the headshot.
To further make this point, I know a guy (Ranger in Grenada invasion) that has personally seen a man have his hand blown completely off by fragmentation grenade, and still proceed to stab his attacker to death.

Round placement is key. Pain-as-deterrent will not save you against a determined foe.

moot1337 07-01-2008 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SERPENT7
Training has been mentioned several times, and I would just like to say that IMHO the 'Mozambique Drill' (2 shots centermass, followed by 1 in the head) is the most effective way to stop a motivated adult.
...
Round placement is key. Pain-as-deterrent will not save you against a determined foe.

Too right. Practice, and practice often. Your group sizes will open up like crazy under a stressful situation, and where you place those shots matters. Pistols do not have the ballistic advantage that rifles have, in that rifles can disrupt tissue not directly in the bullets path. Pistols rounds are limited to the immediate area of where they hit, as hydrostatic shock is exponentially less at lower velocities. Get something with which you can place a lot of rounds on target, accurately, and do that regularly. CNS hits count for everything when it comes to disabling a human target, and between the lower-than-rifle shock effects of a pistol, to the inherent difficulty in shooting one accurately, it puts the wielder of the pistol at a great disadvantage, which can only be made up for with intense training.

To give yourself a greater advantage, make sure your rounds meet the minimum penetration standards of the FBI - 12 inches in 10% gelatin. The larger they expand, the better - but only if they meet that minimum. Otherwise they may not reach a critical area, even if a proper hit is made. Never take risks when it comes to self defense - that's why guns are used instead of pepper spray or tasers, and that's also why not to use cheap self defense ammunition.

SSJTWIZTA 07-02-2008 07:58 AM

okay, got it.

i knew about the rifle disrupting more tissue, ive seen low speed footage and shots taken into gel. Its just the fact that theres not much room to operate in my house with a rifle, unless im in the den or living room.

if i do opt for a rifle, do you think a ruger mini 30 would work well in these situations. i know someone thats selling one and they are pretty compact.

i also find that im not to accurate with a pistol, unlike a rifle. so i def. need some more practice.

i was going to go to the local gun shop and see if they had a sw 686p i could test fire along with a 9mm m&p and maybe a .40 of some sort.

moot1337 07-02-2008 10:29 AM

You might hate hearing it, but as far as I'm concerned, the shotgun is still the king of home defense. The shortest you can get one, however, is 18 1/2" of barrel, and possibly add on a folding stock - this is one reason with the most validity that I'd choose a handgun over a shotgun, in a very tight quarters situation. Shotguns are also heavy and "require" 2 hands to operate (you can use one and a forearm, or something, but you would still need to pump after the first shot).

Rifles need to make use of a longer barrel in order to achieve those velocities that disrupt a ton of tissue, which is their shortcoming - one of the reasons why I'm waiting for the Kel-Tec RFB: a bullpup semi-auto .308 which addresses trigger linkage and ejection concerns - the 18" carbine has a 26" overall length.

Even so, I may well choose a pistol for home defense anyway. They're maneuverable and harder to take away, can be used accurately with one hand, and can have a light (and laser) mounted just like a rifle or shotgun may. Shot placement is important with anything - just somewhat moreso with a pistol. That is the give and take of advantages and disadvantages when choosing a weapon - there are many factors to take consideration of.

More than half of shooting a pistol accurately is how you condition yourself, mentally. A very loud, sometimes quite concussive explosion is taking place merely a couple feet from your face. As a result, many people flinch in anticipation of the shock, the feel of recoil, and the movement of the pistol, thus losing their concentration at the critical moment. Your shot will be affected by how you move the pistol during and after the trigger pull, so you must learn to follow through, keeping the sights on target, and letting them return to the target after the shot is made. Relax, and let the gun do the work - its weight will keep it steady, its push from the shot will only receive an equal push from your hand, falling back on target when your wrists are properly tensioned and aligned.

To get a proper grip on the pistol, first doublecheck that it's unloaded, then place the highest point of the backstrap into the web of your dominant hand. Make sure that your hand is as high up as it may go, as more recoil will be directed backwards, and muzzle flip will be lessened. Keep your index finger straight, and wrap the rest around the grip of the pistol, keeping your thumb high, but away from the slide stop. Now place the heel of your non-dominant hand in the space leftover, just under your thumb. Wrap your four fingers around the other 3, lending them support, and place your thumb straight forward against the frame, keeping it below the slide. Put your dominant thumb upon the knuckle of your non-dominant thumb, and apply forward (against recoil) pressure with your dominant hand, matching that by pulling back with your non-dominant. You need a firm grip, but not one that you'd use to shake the hand of the devil himself.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_t...tg_100206D.jpg

If you've got it right, the pistol will move straight up and down when you rotate your wrists to simulate the direction of recoil. If it moves up and to the side, make sure the pistol is in the center of the web of your hand. Do not lock your elbows in a two-handed stance - instead let them move to absorb the recoil, so the pistol may move straight back and forward, instead of your shoulders forcing it up and down.

Checking that it's unloaded again, dry fire from this position using snap caps if your pistol needs them. Use only the pad of your fingertip, not the knuckle, and practice the trigger pull, watching how the sights move in your follow through, possibly placing the round off target. Draw to this position a number of times, so it's the same each time, and I personally guarantee your shooting will become worlds better.

-m00t!

SSJTWIZTA 07-02-2008 11:22 AM

moot, your fucking excellent.

time for me to go outside and practice.

maybe i should just go with shortening the shot gun if this pistol thing doesnt work out. i only have 1 pump, the rest are semi-auto with the exception of the 4-10...but im not using that for home defense.

so, you think my browning 3 inch magnum would handle the job fine, even though its huge?

edit: i did an image search. this is almost exactly the same gun i normally go to grab when i hear sketchy noises.

http://shootersxchange.com/images/items/full/76137.jpg

moot1337 07-08-2008 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
...
so, you think my browning 3 inch magnum would handle the job fine, even though its huge?
...

Home defense is really something that has to be analyzed on a case by case basis - there's no weapon that is a one size fits all, though some have easier learning curves, and fit more people than others. There are several questions you need to ask yourself and take into account before selecting a weapon for home defense - what is your plan of action, where are your tools going to be, what are you securing, do you have light, how maneuverable does your weapon need to be, how much practice do you have with that type of weapon, how far away are the police, how thin are your walls, how close are your neighbors, how many shots do you have before a reload, what's the recoil, noise, and flash like, is anyone else going to be using them, what kind of experience do they have...

These are just a few of the factors to take into account - try to think of possible scenarios for breaking into your house, if home defense is in your mind. There's a ton of useful info on this thread and elsewhere. One further thing I'd point out if you plan on using the 3" magnum - make sure not to use magnum shells in it, with no smaller than #1 buckshot. You don't need the magnum power sending your shoulder flying in a defensive scenario. Often people will have many tools scattered through the house, as something will happen when you least expect it and are the least prepared - a dedicated HD shotgun is nothing to scoff at, but should not be the only item in your toolbox.

JoeBlow131b 07-28-2008 02:02 PM

.40 cal is what is in my night-stand...

KirStang 07-28-2008 05:57 PM

I have a 1911 in .45ACP in my nightstand. A lot of good information in this thread--basically from personal experience, what I've found is to rent pistols at your local range, try a couple until you're impressed by one, and buy it. Any modern pistol caliber above .380 in +P JHP loading should be sufficient to stop an motivated attacker given the right shot placement.

Be sure to practice shooting with one hand holding a flashlight and another on the pistol--you see it in cop movies sometime where the dominant hand holds the pistol, while the support hand holds the flashlight underneath it. An instructor I trained under suggested using momentary on switches to identify the target, then switching off to avoid giving a large bright light to shoot at.

I've found that I can make 10 ring shots consistently at 15 yards with a 1911, so that's the weapon I chose. Good luck and be safe.

ItWasMe 07-28-2008 07:57 PM

If you can get ahold of a competition handgun, some are nice. I like mine. A .38 Super, and the kick is about the same as bb-guns I've tried. Maybe less kick than that. Only thing is, the safety switch does not automatically engage when it's cocked. It might be one less thing to remember in an emergency, but it's also one less thing a child has to do if they get ahold of it.


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