MSD

Have fun running for the safe and fumbling with the key, fingers trembling from the adrenaline rush, when you actually need it. If it's a handgun, keep it on you at all times when in the house, only lock it up when you leave it at home unattended. If it's a long gun (shotgun with 00 buckshot for home defense,) keep it within arm's reach at night or where intruders' points of entry are not between you and it.
You're driving through Massachusetts. Anything involving guns and that state is a problem, make sure you have enough gas to get through without stopping and avoid major cities.
[/QUOTE]
You have to be 18 to buy handguns.
Some states like CT require you to have a pistol permit (which is the state CCW) to buy handguns.
Guns aren't for intimidating, guns are for using lethal force to defend yourself. Racking a shotgun to intimidate an attacker will give him a chance to shoot first or let him know exactly where you are, giving him the upper hand.
There's more recoil, but the larger frame of a .45 tends to offset the recoil and keep the gun more in line with the target in my experience.
Depends on whether it came with a stock from the factory. If it did, it's a SBS. If it didn't, it's an AOW.
I'll make sure to pick some of that up if I ever want to bruise an intruder into submission. For now, I'll stick with my Federal Vital-Shok slugs. I used to think beanbags and rubber shot were a good idea, but I snapped back to reality and in a worst case scenario I'd rather make sure they aren't able to walk or point a gun at me after I shoot.

Plan9

Hahah, wow. Dissection is good stuff, bro. It makes this place entertaining.

VT: Implied logic. Yeah, rumor has it you have to be 18 to do most stuff in the states. Vote, buy smokes, do things like own firearms. Ya know. Stuff.

POINT 1: 99% of home invasions aren't to "butcher shop" a family. Intimidation using tools is the key to success. I'd bet my ass a 90 lumen lithium flashlight is more than enough deterrent to get most thieves running. I'd also suggest racking a shotgun slide would be a good deterrent against somebody bent on theft. A big dog barking is pretty scary. Last time I checked? Being on my home ground with a weapon I've trained on puts me way ahead of some high school drop out with a crowbar stumbling around in my living room in the dark. If people are going to shoot, they're going to shoot. You can't stop it. Meh. Fear is a really good weapon. And its free. Criminals mostly rely on you being scared of them to commit their crimes.

POINT 2: I'd argue that the "worst case scenario" isn't the guy breaking into your house... it is dealing with the "legal system" that'll brutally cornhole you and your family after you "defend" your "life" (not "property") with "lethal force" via "assault weapon". Your life will be destroyed by protecting it yourself. Seen this happen. Didn't like the flavor it left in my mouth.

Yeah, the .45 caliber / frame size / recoil thing is a total generalization.

I don't care what 2nd Amendment bullshit anybody spouts... the law is against civilians using firearms. I blame Law and Order, myself.

12 Gauge Answer: Rubber buckshot in the tube. I keep five fingers of Federal 00 Buck on the stock sleeve. I'm cautious, not stupid.

(fingers tired from sardonic air quotes, muscle failure bliss)

Point: I'm not afraid of criminals. I can handle them. I fear that which I cannot handle... the powers that be... and be way over me.

Hooah, Sergeant. Airborne!

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Fire

just to chime in here

1-we have had three home invasions here in the last year and a half- 2 of them resulted in the murder of the homeowner, after he gave the invaders what they wanted- they may not start out to "butcher shop " you, but around here we assume any more that they will manage it anyway- and treat them accordingly

2- some states have a castle doctrine- we just passed one here in missouri, which takes effect aug 28- at that point, you are no longer required to retreat or be attacked to use lethal force on an intruder- their being illegally in your home, tent, car or business is enough to justify lethal force, and you cannot be prosecuted or sued..... this law rocks, and more and more states are adopting similar laws..... check yours......

3- I am a believer in the jacking the slide on a shotgun idea, as years ago it frightened away someone trying to jimmy my mothers door with a knife-(that someone was later caught when another woman shot him, he had raped three women before this occured).... however, it is no substitute for a willingness to shoot- and it will give your position away.......

4- most rubber shot is lethal at less than at least 25 yards- so it will not give you a break in court unless you have a hell of a big living room......

__________________
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Mood the more as our might lessens

Plan9

Rubber shot is all PC, bro.

I KNOW it'll kill under 25 yards. That's the secret point!

It looks good in court! The title of it, the makeup of the rounds.

"Hey, I tried to use less-lethal ammo! He was just... just SO close."

Any dumbass could say that its a more "humane" choice than lead despite the actuality of the result.

It kills 'em just as dead. It also has near zero chance of wall penetration.

/2 cents

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

jorgelito

How is the stopping power of rubber? If it's that good, then it would be a viable option.

Slims

Rubber shot is not likely to kill anyone, even if they are close. But it does happen, hence the warnings.

Also, you can't use less lethal ammunition unless you would be able to use the regular stuff as well. It won't help you at all if it looks like you didn't have the right to use deadly force...because the law still sees it as such. And if you did have the right to use deadly force then why are you messing around with rubber pellets?

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

Why? Because Orwell was right about the world.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Deltona Couple

If you are looking for a round that is lethal, yet will NOT penetrate through walls in your home, look at the Glaser round, which is what I use in home and public defense. It does NOT ricochet, and will stop at the point of contact, so no going through walls. you can find it at pretty much ANY ammunition retailer. I will agree with most here in saying that the safest gun is...NONE. There are no SAFE guns. Every gun is potentially lethal in the hands of a human being. so ALWAYS treat a firearm as loaded at ALL times. You had mentioned that you didn't intend on getting a CCW permit, but I would HIGHLY suggest you and your wife taking a CCW permit class, jsut for the GREAT knowledge that you will get from it. Many firearm safety classes teach you the basics on HOW to use a firearm, and HOW to clean it and keep it safe. Your local CCW class will teach you WHEN to use it (specifics in legal standpoint for your state, since the CCW is a STATE level license) and THAT is your best knowledge. I always have said and always will say that the best time to fire at your target(i.e. intruder) is when you KNOW who it is. ALWAYS identify your target BEFORE firing PERIOD! don't EVER fire through a door or fire blind. too many people have killed family members simply because they paniced and failed to identify WHO they were shooting. I have NEVER fired my pistol without knowing what it was pointed at, and what was a potential hazzard AROUND my target. It only takes a fraction of a second to identify your target, but it takes YEARS, if ever, to get over killing a member of your family on accident! I am honestly supprised after all the dicussion of various handguns here, and yet NOBODY has mentioned my favorate one, the Springfield Armories xd40, or xd45 ACP. It is a WONDERFUL handgun with trigger, handguard, and firing pin safeties. All of which are unlocked simply by griping the handgun properly. no need to flick a lever, or do anything. Just grab it and fire. It has a zero percent chance of accidental discharge when dropped or struck. Check it out here if you have never seen it. this is the one that I have.... SA XD-40 subcompact

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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

longbough

... or get a big dog

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

MSD

And I'd argue that the worst case scenario is ending up dead because you didn't use sufficient force to incapacitate an attacker. The only reliable way to do that is shooting center of mass or the head.
I'll try some rubber shot on water jugs sometime, then get back to you on how effective it is.

Slims

So have you bought anything yet?

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

It depends on your value of life, but I'd suggest that death is better than getting a felony on your record and losing your ability to vote, own firearms, and get a decent job.

...

Testing ammunition on water jugs is like testing sex on apple pie.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

scout

There is nothing wrong with Mossberg if you don't mind the "Mossberg Rattle" and losing your ass on resale. Mossberg pump guns are well known for the rattle made by the forearm/action slide against the tube and receiver. If your looking for an old beater that you won't mind beating up and kicking around with then Mossberg is the gun to get. If you are looking to make an investment and not lose your ass if you ever decide to trade it for something else or "step up" to something else then don't buy a Mossberg. The following numbers are all examples because different guns cost different prices in different areas of the country but here goes: Let's say you pay $250 tax included for a Mossberg Model 500 12 gauge pump the most you will ever get back out of the gun is $150 no matter what shape it's in. You lost $100 when you walked out the door because no matter if you shoot it or not it's now a used gun. You buy a Remington Model 870 12 gauge pump and you pay $300 tax included. The resale on the Remington is somewhere in the $250 range so it's only cost you $50 to walk out the door. Hope that in someway helps you in your decision making. Good Luck!

Plan9

.. or Winchester 1300. Or Charles Daly 12. Or Mossberg 590. Or whatever the hell you buy.

Pretty hard to find a bad 12 gauge slide action.

Nobody buys a shotgun to sell it. They buy a shotgun to propel buckshot. In defense of the Mossberg... it is the one the US military uses (not that means much). I rode with a battered M500 by my side for a year in the desert and it was the only weapon system that always chambered a round 100% of the time.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

cj2112

how did I know this was going to turn into a pissing match over brands and ammo?

If your life is truly in danger, a round in the chamber of a Mossberg, a Remington, a Beretta, a Browning, a Winchester, a Charles Daly, or even a New England Arms, will serve the purpose. My personal preference is Beretta, or Browning, but that is because I come from a clay target sports background, and that is what I shoot and see consistently on the skeet fields and sporting clays courses. I know that both of these guns go BANG every time I pull the trigger. Neither of them have ever had a failure that wasn't directly caused by shooting poorly reloaded ammo. For home defense I use ONLY factory loaded ammo, and I have never had a failure to feed or extract in my semi-auto Beretta with factory ammo, nor have I ever had a failure to fire in in my Browning (it's a Citori, an over and under) while using factory loaded ammo.

Take a safety course, and a home defense course. Purchase the best quality weapon you can afford, practice regularly, and keep your weapon clean and well maintained. THAT is what important. Oh yeah...and if sounds like bullshit....it probably is, the best source of information on the local laws is going to be from your local law enforcement (before you have a situation), or a reputable home/self defense course being taught locally.

MSD

Ever hear the phrase "better judged by twelve than carried by six"? If you'd rather die than defend yourself, I'll let you continue, but if I am responding to a deadly threat, I will use nothing less than what will reliably stop that threat.


Water jugs are a reasonably reliable method of testing a round's capacity to penetrate.

Plan9

I concur. This is post is way outta context now. Wooo, enough philosophy.

(bases his life attitude on experiences, not conjecture or cute sayings)

When was the last time someone shot at anybody here? Uh-huh. Gotcha.

...

/clocks out

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

debaser

Christ, it's been over a year now hasn't it?

__________________

Plan9

-PUH-CRACK- -PUH-CRACK- -PUH-CRACK-

"THIS IS THE AK-47... THE PREFERRED WEAPON OF THE ENEMY!"

/Clint Eastwood war movie lines

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Fallon

Unfortunately we haven't been able too. We just finished our move so when we get a bit more income, I'll probably look at a shotgun for the time being.
Thanks again everyone for the advice.

Plan9

Well hurry up, already.

And take pictures.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

Yeah. Hurry up.
I've already purchased 2 more firearms since this thread began:
A VangComp Rem 870 Police Magnum
and a well-conditioned 1940 German military Luger (mfg. by Mauser) - Yes I will shoot it.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Suave

If there's a concern regarding firing indoors without hearing protection, why not get a .45 and a silencer?

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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

ChrisJericho

I have been reading this thread, and I saw that my local GOJOES is having a sale on the 870 Express for $239

http://joessports.shoplocal.com/joes...agenumber%3d11

That's a good price right?

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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Plan9

Heck-yes!

I'll take two.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

MSD

Yes. I order you to buy it.

ChrisJericho

I'll probably get one in a year or two, when I no longer have roommates. Of course the sale will be over by then. =D

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

soundmotor

I have had my CCW in MA since 1982. The only places it is tough to get one is the city of Boston and a number of towns statewide that have anti-gun chiefs. The chief of police is the final say on licensing and if you live in "one of those towns", you will indeed have a painful time.

They do get issued even then however as if the chief cannot demonstrate any legal reason to deny you, you will get your CCW. You will need an attorney though and that will cost you. That alone scares off enough that they go no further when denied. However, since the attorney the town uses to support the chief will be funded by the town coffers, the last thing the town wants is a protracted legal battle. As I understand it, in some cases all it took was your hired gun to write the town & chief and they issue. MA has an organization called GOAL that can help those denied through the process.

An interesting side note on New England. MA & NH are Class lll states. You can (and people do) get full-auto weapons if your chief will sign off on them. Oddly silencers are specifically prohibited in MA which is really crazy as there are many farms close to residential areas and that is one place they have a perfect application, coyote, raccoon or fox dispatch. Also, if you have your CCW for MA, you can get one that is valid in NH too. As stated you don't need one for VT. I am not sure about RI & ME but never hear anyone complaining about them. I don't know about CT firsthand.

Before I would recommend any firearm, I would ask if you've fixed the issues on your home that the intruder was able to bypass in order to get in the first time? Better & more lights, improved locks & doors and so forth. Secondly, have you considered any non-lethal alternatives such as pepper foam spray or even a Taser if allowed in your area?

You should absolutely track down the book "In Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. It will give you a better understanding of now being judged to a higher standard if you are wielding a firearm defensively. A firearm is only good if you are willing to use it and there are other things you can do first in order not to have to use it. At the end of the day, you don't want to have taken a life if you can avoid it by any other means.

MSD

CT is a funny state when it comes to guns. You can have full-auto Title II guns, but only machine guns, not select fire. We have an AWB, but exactly what's covered changes from time to time, or if the commissioner of public safety has a mood swing. My favorite example is the "Automat Kalashnikov AK-47," banned under the state AWB. First, anything that was stamped "AK-47" was banned, then it was everything based on a Kalashnikov action (including Saigas,) and now, it's anything AK-based that's chambered in 7.62x39 or qualifies as a "semiautomatic assault weapon" under the feature list. Because of this, it's possible to legally purchase a WASR-2 (AK-74 clone,) but I've only found one dealer in the state who sells them, and he can only get them from one supplier (the rest are afraid that the Commissioner of Public Safety will get mad and prosecute them if he didn't get laid last night,) meaning It's $400 plus tax for a no-frills WASR-2. It also doesn't help that dealers take advice on state laws from the BATFE instead of state officials.

As far as concealed carry goes, we're officially shall-issue, but depending on the town, it's really more may-issue. If you apply for an out-of-state permit, send your papers to Westport, because the chief of police there will sign off, no questions asked.

Fallon

This was not really them bypassing them and we were unable in that situation to do much of anything as it was an apartment building. Also, there wouldn't of been much the landlord could of done anyway. We'll have to talk to locals around here and see if we can gather any further information now that we've completed our move.

soundmotor

That is solid gold right there.

Thank you!

DuneHunter

Hey Fallon. Any of the good rod and gun clubs in RI can point you in a good direction as to which stores, etc. to go to. There's also a public 50 yard range that is state maintained at Great Swamp. Check out the dem site at www.dem.ri.gov/topics/wltopics.htm and look at the "Public Shooting Range" section in the lower left.

As far as firearms, my opinion varies. Handguns are awesome in agility, concelement, etc. but I have to agree that for home protection even most Police Officers will tell you that the sound of a shot gun cocking is one of the highest methods of detering an unwanted visitor. It's unmistakable and everyone on the planet pretty much knows what it sounds like. And you don't have to spend big dollars on it if it's just going to sit for that one occasion and a once in a while target time. Any shotgun on the market will illiminate the threat. Just make sure you have the option of several rounds since adreniline will be high if that situation ever occurred.

Now: a qualifier for that situation... children. Handguns are easier to keep out of reach of children in most cases, but either can be if handled properly. But a hand gun can be locked in a small safe by the bed, etc. easier than a shotgun.

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Fire

thank god I live in missouri- We have guns everwhere, and almost nothing we cannot do with them- get a permit for concealed carry, carry open without a permit , carry em in a car without a permit, and if someone breaks in you shoot the fucker dead and the responding cop thanks you........ (ok, so maybe not that good, but better than the east coast by a long shot....)

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens