Fire

I am looking to possibly buy a mac 10 clone, semi auto, for use in close - I am looking at this particular gun because a friend has one that he likes and it has been trouble free, but want to hear about anyone elses experience, as I above all need a gun that will go bang if I ever need it to-

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syquestrd270

Glock 17L with a 33/rd mag.

Problem solved.

Fire

I am looking for something like an uzi- not a glock per say, and cost is a factor- plus I have been told the the glock with a big clip is more unwieldy than the cobray

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The_Dunedan

And that's saying a lot. I -hate- the M-9/11 series. They're very poorly balanced, clunky, and usually have abyssmal triggers. They were designed to be open-bolt submachineguns, not closed-bolt semiautos, and it shows. They're also difficult to use accurately because of the 90-degree grip angle and lack of a stock. The grip angle wouldn't be such an issue, but without a stock you tend to pull your shots low and tire your hand quickly.

If you want a Mac, shell out and buy a full-auto. They're by far the cheapest and easiest-to-find of the civillian-legal machineguns, you can usually pick one up for about $3500.

If you're after a high-capacity pistol for self defense or nightstand duty, you might want to consider the Spectre, an Italian-made weapon with a 50-round magazine and much superior ergonomics. It also has a pretty nasty trigger, but it can be worked on.

kel

There is nothing the cobray will give you that you can't do better with your basic 17+1 wonder nine. Faster reloads, better trigger, better ergonomics, better sights, better warranty service, better concealibility. The new M&P looks like it is shaping up to be a nice choice, same with the XD-9, there is also the tried and true Glock. You will shoot faster, better, and more accurately with one of those then you ever would with a M-9/11 given the same practice. Glock's with the big stick are unbalanced but not unwieldy.

Capacity is a silly game. If you have not afforded yourself an opportunity to reload with 17+1 then the extra 13 won't make a difference. You just miss more...

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Fire

under normal circumstances I would tend to agree- the cobray was in the running as a special purpose gun, and the glock will not work...trust me... it sounds wierd, and to an extent, is, but I am going to look for another candidate, than the cobray, as almost everyone but my buddy who has one says they are none too great- I may still test fire his, and who knows, maybe I will love it and get my own..... but the cobray just does not have a great rap.....
anyone like the kel tech sub 2000 series? how are they- for that matter, anyone got any suggestions for a cheap 9mm or .45 short carbine or machine pistol style weapon that is not expensive- and looks as imposing as possible- Normaly I would tend toward a weapon that was not imposing, but like
I said, its a special purpose.......

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Acetylene

I imagine laser grips would be the most imposing add-on. Thing about imposing is that most people will find a tec-9 more imposing then a 12 gauge or a regular pistol. I know I would much rather be up against someone with a tec-9 then a 12 gauge or a decent pistol. What looks imposing is frequently not what is most effective. At the size we are discussing the M-9/11 has only looks going for it. It is a useful package full-auto, but in semi it doesn't perform better then a regular pistol even though it may look it to the uninitiated.

Your not going to find anything like the M-9/11 in that price range because it is obsolete as a semi-auto, people want either a pistol or a full size carbine with a decent stock and sight radius. And I personally think that pistol caliber carbines are obsolete given the performance of an M4 in size/weight ratio. Even the AK compares well putting weight aside. Ruger has the PC-9 and Marlin also used to have a pistol caliber carbine. My #1 choice on a cost/performance ratio (given the requirement that it has to look imposing) would be an overfolder AK, you can fire it like a pistol and it has a stock should you want it. Buy a used AK for 250 and put on the stock.

Why are looks so important? I would much rather be it then look it. It is kind of like writing checks with your mouth that your body can't cash.

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Fire

looks are important because In the part time job that i am going into, (fugitive recovery)I would rather intimidate people than shoot them- I will also be carrying a .357 revolver, loaded with either glazers, or .38 plus p hollowpoints- that should "cash" any checks written- the m11/9 would be for crowd controll, when fitted with a laser I was hoping for something that would persuade idiots to stand down without a fight- of course In the event that I need it, It has to work- and I had heard mixed reviews on the cobray in that dept... the reason for a pistol caliber, instead of the AK which I already own is that overpenetration is a big worry- same reason that I am not looking at a shotgun.... so I guess that I will test fire my buddies cobray, and then go from there......

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syquestrd270

You can get probably away with a .223 if you feed it frangible range ammo or varmint rounds. I'd consider the following "pistols" given your desired purpose:

Carbon 15 pistol in 9mm or .223
AK pistol in .223
Olympic Arms OA-93 in .223
Vector Uzi
HK SP89

Acetylene

I refer you to
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...itive+recovery
amd
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
I would go with a shotgun and shot but that is just me. Big and slow gives you the best performance penetration vs. power wise.

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The_Dunedan

The idea of a "display" gun is a BAD one.

If you've drawn your gun, it needs to be in response to an immidiate, concrete, credible threat. In such a case, it needs to be reliable, accurate, and comfortable, because you may need to fire it RIGHTNOW.

In a situation such as you're preparing for, you have a "display" gun and a "work" gun. If a situation goes bad, you're stuck either relying on an unfamilliar, potentially unreliable weapon, or holstering/dropping your "display" piece to draw your "work" gun. That takes time, and in a gunfight time is literally everything. When your lifespan is potentially being measured in heartbeats, you don't need a malfunction and you don't need to be fumbling.

Secondly, that kind of brandishing (and that's what it is; brandishing) is a highly unprofessional way to approach the situation. Not only is it a nasty case of "Above The Law Syndrome," but also a potential escalating factor as well. It's illegal for a Civillian to brandish their weapon and should be (but isn't) for skip-chasers and LEOs. You don't use your gun to intimidate people, "persuade" people, browbeat people, get their attention, or direct traffic. You keep your hands off the bastard until and unless you're being directly and concretely threatened with severe injury or death. Cops forgetting this simple rule is why they keep shooting themseleves, their partners, and occaisionally bystanders or prisoners. Unless someone is threatening you with imminent sever injury or death, leave your weapon in the holster. That's the law for Civillians like us, and if you as a LEO can't follow it, you need to find a different line of work.

Fire

I am aware of the generall validity of your statements, under most circumstances, and will answer/clarify with the following-

1- If I go with the Cobray, then I will be very damn familliar with it, and if it during the thousand or so rounds I will put through it before I get it near a job, shows any tendency towards unreliability, then it will be replaced/dropped from the active roster
i asked peoples advice on whether it would be a waste of money in the first place, given that I only know personally one person who has one...

2- the only time that we will be brandish any weapon is during a high risk pickup- this will not be an everyday thing, rather a very rare thing- we are likely talking about 1 in 100 hopefully less- further note that the person leading this team (not myself) is a certified law enforcement trainer and pistol instructor in the state we are operating in, and that we are taking this agressive stance on the advice of the city and county officers that work the areas that we plan to do this in- normally, I would agree with you, but in a really bad situation, I will have a weapon out and ready if I need it- and I would rather point it at someone and not have to then shoot them, than to have to pull it and drop them..... plus, if it is out, then I will not have to waste the seconds that it would take to pull it.......I reiterate, this WILL NOT BE NORMAL OPERATING PROCEEDURE, and on anything but an extreme risk situation will not be an option.......... I do value your advice and thank you for stating it, but felt the need to clarify the situation.....

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Moonduck

I'd go with a shotgun too. A Cobray, and all similar guns, are very mediapathic, and won't win you any sympathy in the courts. If you do have to pull the trigger, the court is where you'll find yourself, and using some crazy gun like a cobray will do nothing other than give the prosecution on emore thing to tar and feather you with.

A shotgun, however, is a gun that the police use. A good gun, if you will. They also happen to be quite effective, and stupendously intimidating. And can be had very inexpensively.

Fire

with the plethora of ammo available, I am leaning toward the shotgun- I do not like the idea of a display gun on basic principle, even one I am confident in- but if it will prevent idiots from forcing me to use a gun, then so much the better- and those who work the area we will be in primarily said that it really does work- I am liking an 870 as a posibility......

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Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

Moonduck

I should also note that I've owned a Cobray. It was a surprisingly reliable piece, and about as accurate as your average combat handgun of reasonable quality. It was, as someone mentioned above, a bit of a bear to fire for too long, or even to hold for too long. The grip and grip angle really are unpleasant. I sold it to a friend o fmine for far more than I paid for it and he promptly and efficiently broke the firing pin the next time he hit the range with it.

I mention this only to provide full disclosure of where my opinion comes from.

longbough

I wouldn't recommend the cobray.
I've used the selective fire Ingram M10 (with the "silencer" of course) and I didn't like it very much. It has the ergonomics of a zip gun - the grip angle is terrible.

I don't think is a completely useless item but it's definitely overpriced for what you get.

I'm also of the school of thought that brandishing a weapon for intimidation is a bad practice. I've covered that issue before so I won't bore you with the rationale. (But it's a bad practice.) That being said - there's nothing more intimidating than looking down a 12 ga bore - especially if you have a high output weapon-mounted light. Just ask anyone who has ever racked a Remington 870 on a subject.

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"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi