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Effects of a Democratic Congress?
Anyone else going to buy up a "scary" gun between now and Jan 20? While I have been mildly considering getting an AR-15 to compete in NRA Service Rifle competitions, the change in leadership in Washington has me more anxious to make the purchase. I feel like one of the first things Pelosi will do is dust off her A.R. ban and Brady Bill (she wrote the A.R. ban), it we will all be back to 10 round mags and no ARs.
Never in my life have I felt more threatened about losing my rights to bear arms, and it's a sad day when you will purchase a weapon that you wouldn't normally rush into, simply because you believe your right will be taken from you very soon. Others feel this way? |
The Dems will be sidetracked by the War and the mess the Republicans left behind. You'll probably be fine for at least the next 8-10 months.
Also, Magnum P.I. is going to be taking over for Heston, you really can't lose. Ferraris for everyone!! |
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and that will be the first excuse they'll have for not governing the way they promised...."oh we were left with the waaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrr" :| |
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2) how about letting us fuck up before you whine about it eh? It's not like the republicans did a great job. It's time to let someone else have a turn. The newly elected democrats (who were elected BECAUSE your side screwed things up so badly) haven't even taken office yet, and already you're complaining about them. That's absurd. Oh and BTW, Will is right. We have a lot of work to do cleaning up your party's messes before we ever get around to worrying about assault weapon bans, but if it reaches the point where we have enough breathing room to look into it, I'll support it. You don't need an AK-47. I swear you guys are incredible. Ban nail clippers from airplanes, but submachine guns in suburbia is just fine? Sheesh. |
I'm not saying that Nancy wouldn't want to ban it, but with the moderate democrats and Bush still in the White House, I don't think it will happen.
Are AR-15s really a problem? I don't hear about them being used in crimes very often. And there are plenty of people like me that don't own a gun, but have to hold it every time I go into Cabela's. On a side note...I'm still pissed that I didn't get that free gun from that bank in Michael Moore's movie. I lived in Michigan and would have opened an account with them to get a gun. Right now, I can't really justify buying a AR-15 either. But I want the option to. This is my favorite military gun, but there is really no reason anyone in the general public would need one. If everything went to hell, and we had to stop an armed invasion, I want this gun. :D http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...round/m107.htm |
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I can't believe that I can't have a nuclear arsenal to protect my house from a invading foreign country (surely it wouldn't be used in a US civil war). :thumbsup: :lol: Nuclear weapons and material isn't the same as assault rifles. However, I'm sure there are people out there that say that the public should have access to any weapon our military has, just in case we need to defend ourselves from them one day. |
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On both counts. So...where is the line drawn? Certainly no sane person believes that Joe P. Citizen should be allowed to have a nuclear warhead out in his backyard storage shed. Nor, I think, should he be able to own a tank, a bazooka, a grenade launcher, an aircraft carrier....and so on and so forth. Look...I'm not in favor of gun control. I fully support the 2nd amendment. I am a hunter. I am a hunter safety instructor (NRA certified). I own guns. I own rifles. I own shotguns. I own handguns. I do not own an assault rifle. I don't see the point. Since I can't (for good reason) own one that fires on full auto, then the only other benefit to having one is...that it looks badass? I don't think so. I got enough of looking badass when I had to carry one in the military, thank you. So, I really haven't made my mind up on the whole assault rifle ban...still. No one has yet to provide to me, a strong enough argument. One way...or the other. |
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If I see someone walking down the street with an assault rifle, I'm calling the police, and following them to make sure they don't kill anyone. It's a little more serious than a handgun because it's too powerful. |
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The Second Amendment has absolutely squat to do with hunting. It's about keeping the people in power over the government. The socialists of this country have done way too much damage to the 2nd Amendment, another attempted gun ban COULD be the match that lights the fire. |
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This argument is the sole reason I'm opposed to people owning assault weapons. Attitudes like this are insane. Sure, you have a machine gun. Great. One tank and your day is over. The only logical conclusion is either 1) we engage in a government / citizen arms race (government obviously wins since they can buy a lot more missiles than you can) or 2) we stop being ridiculous about insisting on gun ownership. No one's trying to take your hunting rifles away, but really, do you really think that overall we'd be safer if everyone, including the idiots, had machine guns? That's just crazy. Quote:
But if the citizenry really does want to exercise their 2nd amendment rights, they should certainly buy a gun and join a well-regulated militia. Unless you're in a WELL REGULATED militia, the 2nd simply does not apply to you. Period. |
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I guess we're back to kicking that dead horse again. |
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If I were a gun advocate who was concerned about the public being able to overthrow the government if needed (versus just really liking noisy dangerous toys), I'd have a real problem with that. |
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For a better look at how congress has usurped power from the people, read my signature. |
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Your logic is breaking down bigtime Quote:
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sorry shak, your reasoning, interpretation, and conclusions are wrong and illogical.
It should be interesting to you that it wasn't until 1905 that the first court determined specifically that the 2nd Amendment was a collective right, I guess that those first 125 years of our countries existence consisted of moronic judges who probably couldn't even name the signers of the declaration OR the constitution. Quote:
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Bottom line: any sane person can see that the right to bear arms has no real world connection with the responsibility of the public to keep the government in check. We have the reight to bear arms now, and I don't see one bullet being fired becuase of the loss of freedoms over the past 6 years. Not one shot rang out when we were wire tapped without a warrant. Not one bullet was fired when the Military Comissions Act of 2006 murdered Habeas Corpus. Not one shot rang out when the term "enemy combatent" was used to circumvent the Geneva Convention. Nothing. Nada. Until I see vigilantism on the rise among those who legally own weapons, I will not see the populace as a well regulated anything, and I will not support the arming of civilians. It's useless. Our military will prevent any kind of invasion, AND we have the National Guard in reserves...so that's out. If the government were to start turning on the populace, you wouldn't see lone gunmen or even organizaed terrorist cells work with any success. The only real success, as I've stated before, would come from domestic terrorism: independant terrorist bombers that have no connection to any kind of organization. That's the only way to fight the US military, and I don't see that happening until we're so far gone it may not make a difference. That should effectively take the question or armed rebelion and well regulated militia out of your argument once and for all. As far as nukes: all you need for a dirty bomb is some radioactive material, which is less guarded than bomb grade nuclear material. Quote:
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The Federalists, on the other hand, wanted a perminant, federally controled military. They also didn't want a bill of rights. BTW, San Francisco has been under the handgun ban for some time now, and crime rates have slowly dropped. Just an aside. /threadjack |
you know will, you're right. we're fucked. surrender all your freedom and work as a slave. we all shoud. we can't beat the government, you better do everything they tell you. freedom was just a dream. welcome to your new world order.
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But moving back for a moment: have you shot anyone for the loss of your freedoms? No? Is that becuase I'm laying down for the NWO, or because you are laying down for the NWO? I've already explained that my best weapon is my big fat mouth. I tell people what's up, and a lot of people listen (the trick is a joke every now and again). You've made it clear that your weapon of choice has a barrel and launches little metal projectiles. My weapon is firing at a 300 words a minute. I'm doing everything I can, and you say, "welcome to your new world order."? I don't want to turn that argument around on you completly, so I suggest that we move on. |
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Plus, having the majority republican military fighting the primarily republican NRA wouldn't sit well. There would be a lot of dissent in the military I would assume. (If your father was fighting for the NRA, and you were in the military, I couldn't imagine them shooting at each other) And you can't just nuke Birmingham and Charleston to wipe out the NRA either. They will blend into the general population. It would get ugly real fast. When I read the second amendment, I take it to mean that if the government and military get too powerful and use their power for evil, the general population needs to be able to restore the government back to the constitution and hold new elections. The majority of people voted for the government we have, so if the majority of people want to kill some muslim religious extremists, the other 49% have to go along with it. If Bush would have blocked this election and made himself king, then there might have been a problem. |
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Second, I'm not sure what point you're driving at here. Want to elaborate? Quote:
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2) The states still have a well regulated, armed militia. They're called cops. Quote:
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And btw Iraq was a society that DID have much more powerful weapons than American civilians had, and it STILL took an outside army to topple Saddam. Quote:
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I've heard of single-issue voters, but that's just nuts. |
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The NRA is great for lobying and fighting things like the New Orleans gun confiscations or SF's proposition H. They are not a body capable of any kind of military action. Also, if this "extreme democrat government" forced everyone to give up their guns, what use would the NRA be at all? Quote:
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I had always read the bill of rights inside their historical context and from that determined that the second Amendment:
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I personally have always believed that no person should be allowed to own a weapon that they did not know how to use and store safely. To that end I personally believe that we should require owners of guns to obtain a license, much like a drivers license. Yes I do know that you have to have a license to own a gun, but there is nothing in obtaining that license that says you have to know how to use it. if anyone in this world has advanced the cause of gun control in America in the last 5 years it's been our nice Republican VP. See what happens when you put a gun in the hands of an idiot? Lawyers get shot. On second thought maybe this isn't such a bad idea. |
I will never understand why people will adamantly, and with fervent vigor, attack the slightest notion of losing their right to bear arms when so many other rights have been plucked away with hardly a word in opposition.
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The last AWB turned out to be a political lead balloon. They won't risk it before the next big elections in 2008. Though I am sure a few will make token speaches about bringing back a ban before then.
After the 2008 presidential race, all bets are off. Nevermind that the world didn't end when the last AWB expired. CHI: A lot of people do oppose the loss of those rights as well. But I can think of two reasons why any erosion of the second amendment is protested perhaps more vigorously than others: 1: You are losing something tangible. One day you can have something and the next you have to surrender it or put your name on a list. and 2: The second amendment was intended to be our last-ditch defence against a government turned bad. If you remove all other liberties except the second amendment, people may through force of arms reinstate a government that serves the people. |
You might be right about the tangibility, but still...
This thread brings to mind my favorite verse from the Declaration of Independence: Quote:
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I doubt we'll see much, at least right away. The Dem leadership seems silent on the issue, oddly enough. They could be planning something sneaky, like attatching a nasty bill to the Defense Appropriation as a rider, though, and I wouldn't put it past them.
Their big concern right now is '08. They want that ugly oversized house-trailer back -real- bad. The Military-Industrial-Banking Complex sees the advantages too, so they and their media mouthpieces are keeping shut. As a consequence, I think Greg has it nailed. I don't expect anything to come of it for at least the next two years; the Dem's success this time around hinged on being able to woo moderate Republicans and Independants, who were fed up with Iraq and such. That support wouldn't survive another AWB, and the Dem leadership knows it. I think they'll keep gun-grabbing out of the headlines until '08, if they can. |
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Are you really suggesting that the constitution's framers considered a militia well regulated as long as it was composed of people who were supposed to control themselves? That's a bit of a kindergarten approach to it don't you think? And if I'm the one that's supposed to be regulating myself, who's basic orders are you suggesting I follow? Your arguments fail to stand up to even the lightest logical scrutiny.[/QUOTE] And yet, that is exactly what the framers thought and believed. But you're obviously a much more intelligent and wiser individual than those bumbling fools that created this republic, since those who believe in the individual rights theory are unreasonable and illogical, despite all the evidence they put forth. What is it like being such a genius? Quote:
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I wonder if you are really as smart as you think you are, since you apparently have very little understanding of the historical evolution and development of the constitution. |
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I need to address some dead horseshit I saw in this thread:
1) Well-regulated militia does not mean government-regulated. Nowhere does it say "A government lapdog militia being necessary..." It means able-bodied adults. 2) Rifles can beat bombers, look at wars like Vietnam, the Soviet invasion of Afganistan(which I still can't spell), and to a certain(lesser) extent Iraq. This is especially true in numbers, such as... oh I dunno... a militia vastly outnumbering an army who would probably have a serious problem attacking its own country. I also have to address the issue of gun crimes. Apart from what I hear on the news, once or twice a year, I hear many more stories of distant acquintances and friends of coworkers about people being stabbed or beaten. Gun crimes are a sensationalized myth. We learn this from television and movies: when somebody kills somebody, it means bang bang. |
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1) The Constitutional militia. This is an unorganizated militia that consists of all able bodies men (or now adults) from the age of 18-45 who can be called into active service by Congress. These would, of course, answer to executive power, and could be construed as "government lapdogs". 2) The State Select militia. This is the National Guard (also "government lapdogs"). 3) Private militia. Mercenaries organizaed into private para-military organizations. These aren't government lapdogs, but they are usually considered to be extreemists, and are unlikely to be considered the "all able bodies adults" you speak of. Quote:
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I, however, have pointed out that clause, which is what supports the idea that "they didn't really mean for everyone to have guns." Quote:
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What you mean to say is that I disagree with you and am therefore stupid. Just because my historical view of the constitution is not the same as yours does not mean that you are not the one who has no clue what he's talking about. |
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