Baron Opal

Is there an ideal sword length that is some ratio of arm length / height? I have heard some people say there is, but of course they don't know. I've heard for katana the ideal length is just longer than is comfortable, but if someone has done any math, I would appreciate it.

Bill O'Rights

I should imagine that it would depend upon the type of sword that you plan on using, but for a saber the ideal length is your height, in inches, multiplied by .6.
If, for example you stand 5'9", you would take 69 x .6, which would come to 41.4 inches.

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longbough

There is no ideal length.

It depends a bit on how you use the sword and on your style.

If you're practicing fencing as a sport it'd be different than if you were using a katana, wakisashi, butterfly knives etc.

Each kind of martial art requires a different balance. A tai-chi sword requires more from the wrist while a typical katana uses more from the shoulder than the wrist. It's a complex equation.

I should mention that, even within a particular martial art, you learn to use weapons with different lengths and balances - and each one requires you to adapt to each one differently. If you study arnis you'd learn rattan sticks, fiberglass, hardwoods of different lengths.

There's no ideal length.

Fire

I run a sword shop, and everyone above is correct.........it all depends on style and what you are doing with it.......

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Charlatan

Just want to add my 2cents to agree as well.

In fact, in Japanese sword fighting there is a Kamae (or stance) that is designed to disguise the actual length of your sword from your opponent. This way he cannot tell the distance you need to be from him to strike.

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Willravel

Quoted for truth.

I like stab weapons, so my sword of choice is a schiovana, which is a basket hilt sword, long, and very light. It takes similar skills found in fencing. 30+" blade, about 37" end to end.

Baron Opal

Yeah, that's what I figured.

I'm doing some sparring with some friends, and I was curious if I could have may faux blade cut to a specific length. I use it like an European broadsword, although some times I pick up a shinai and go to town with that.

Also, I'm getting ready to commission a custom blade, and in the unfortunate and unlikely situation that I would actually have to use it to defend myself, I would like it to be a well-fitted to me as possible.

Ch'i

Usually you aquire a comfort with your sword through training and experience. So I agree with everyone above that it depends on what you use it for.

longbough

Uhh ... are you being realistic, here?

A custom blade? If it's for historical reenactments that's one thing ... but a true personal blade will cost you in the realm of $8000 and up assuming you find a reputable smith. Who is going to make your sword?

And you probably shouldn't use a sword for self defense. That's just not being practical at all. Even folks I know who study swords don't walk around with a wakisashi in their coat. (as an aside, one of my friends who studied the sword for years was MANDATED by his instructor to get a real blade crafted for himself - his own expense of course).

Knives are, arguably, a different matter. But I still think it's not the best choice for personal defense. Have you ever seen a knife fight? You don't want to see the result.

Baron Opal

Virgil England. The blade will be forged by Daryl Meyer. (Assuming they actually accept the commission, I'm deciding what I really want.)
Failing that, perhaps Yoshihara Yoshindo, he's exceptional as well. I am well connected with bladesmithing circles.

This would be for home defense. I suck at firearms and have a talent with bladed weapons. I fear I would hesitate in a dire situation from the rapport of the firearm.

I work in a hospital. I am quite familiar with the mayhem that we inflict upon one another and ourselves.

longbough

It's not that a sword can't be used for self-defense ... it just isn't the best tool for the job.

1.) The definition of self-defense.

The first tenet of deadly force (knife, gun, sword etc.) in self-defense is that your main objective is to STOP, not to KILL. It doesn't mean that the other fella won't die - it just means that your main goal is to stop an element that represents a threat to yourself or someone you would protect. I've discussed the subject many times before in this forum so I'll excerpt text from some of my earlier posts.

First we need to define our terms:

The intent to "stop" is distinctly different from an attempt to "kill." Let's say I'm using a firearm in self-defense. My objective is to STOP the aggressor - And even though the aggressor's death is a likely outcome it isn't the goal. If I happen to shoot and miss but the agressor drops his knife and/or runs away - the aggressor is STOPPED.
If I shoot him and the bullet lacerates the thoracic aorta but he is able to plunge a knife into a loved one just before he dies from rapid internal bleeding - the aggressor is NOT STOPPED. That's the difference between STOPPING and KILLING.

My only concern is the protection of my family - the aggressor's health is a secondary consideration. That's why we say that a gun in personal defense is for STOPPING a violent act.

2.) A baseball bat is at least as good as a sword for self-defense.

Now regarding melee weapons. Consider a baseball bat vs. a sword. The kinetic force of a strong blunt impact causes involuntary reflexive contraction when striking skeletal muscle. That's why you can effectively strike large muscle groups with a bat - e.g. a good blow to the thigh can cause someone to fall.

A bladed weapon would cut large muscle groups. And, unless it's a complete laceration (e.g. severed leg - which rarely happens) or precise cut through tendon, the effect is usually not immediately noticed by the victim unless he's lost significan amount of blood.

Skeletal muscle is comprised of many fibers that work in unison. Slicing some % of a muscle group does not necessarily incapacitate. Recognize that even a bladed weapon delivers some kinetic impact in addition to "cutting." The problem is that it sacrifices much of that in comparison to the blunt impliment like the baseball bat.

3.) A sword is not good for indoors.

The other problem with a full-length sword is that it's not designed for indoor use. I don't care how big your place is or how high your ceilings are - you still have to walk through doorways and around corners.

4.) A sword is not good for close quarters.

If you must use a sharp impliment use a knife. If someone is trying to kill you with anything but a gun they're going to quickly get up close where they can stab you repeatedly with a knife, strangle you, straddle you while pummeling your face etc. With a sword it is in your interest to keep someone at a distance. Even an expert swordsman won't claim that it's impossible for anyone to close in on him.

5.) A sword can bind.

If you impale someone through the rib cage with your sword you're going to have to draw it out again. If there's more than one aggressor you're vulnerable until you free the blade. Even if there's only one aggressor - a thrust through the abdomen won't kill him instantly. If you're still holding on to the sword you're still stuck close to a guy who may have both arms free and a knife in one hand.

Please consider what I've said.

I'm not saying the sword is a lousy weapon. It's quite effective for its intended purpose. But your specific needs are entirely different.

I've worked in various hospitals on both coasts of the US, too. Last month I treated two patients in our ED who came in with their throats cut with improvised blades. An effective strike from a sword is more likely to maim and mutilate than kill. After years of treating thoracic punctures, abdominal stab injuries, deep lacerations to arms, legs and face, as well as a variety of gunshot wounds, I believe it's both more "humane" and more effective to use a firearm for the self-defense.

And, with regard to your reluctance to use a firearm, I wouldn't recommend getting one unless you get the proper training. But that's true with any weapon - sword included.

I have strong opinions on the matter because I have studied matters of self-defense and deadly force for a long time. The basic theory of self-defense is not in dispute by "experts" in the field. It's not really a debatable issue.

Then again, what applies to the masses may be irrelevant to you in particular. If your skills, knowledge, abilities and mental and physical preparation make my points irrelevant in your case then just disregard everything I wrote and do what's best for yourself. Good luck.

Baron Opal

I appreciate your concern. Thank you.

The self-defense issue is a side benefit, not the main reason for the sword. I'm buying the sword as for the same reasons one might buy a painting or other works of art. I happen to greatly appreciate ancient weaponry and I like Virgil's work. I have a few older pieces; a wavy bladed Indian sword made out of a greenish steel is my most prized one.

That said, I want a sword, not a knock-off or a sculpture that happens to look like a sword. Thus, it will be sharp, and a weapon. I would like to be able to use that weapon with proficency. Which leads me to the question I asked above.

Jack1.0

Back to the original question.....

Assuming you are talking about a single handed blade,
the exact length does depend on the style and personal preferences of the wielder, but I would recommend that you not go above a certain length. That length would be just short of the tip touching the ground when the weapon is held in the hand with the arm relaxed and hanging at your side. Depending on your height and the length of your arm this is probably somewhere around 30 inches of blade length( I am 6'4" tall and this comes out to be about 32" of blade length.) While not critical for actual combat maneuvers it does prevent you from having to worry about the tip being scratched or blunted if you allow your arm to hang free before or after a fight. Not so important if the weapon is a practice beater, more important if it is a work of art.

In a single weapon style like Olympic fencing you would rarely allow your hilt to droop low enough for the tip to drag. Your weapon is both your attack and your defense so it is kept in front of you where you can do both. Maximum length becomes more important if you are practicing a style that uses something in the off hand to parry or block with, as this gives you the freedom to perform more radical maneuvers with your primary weapon designed to attack from an unseen or unexpected direction.

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Willravel

As someone who has studied swordplay to a certian extent, my ideal blade length in actual combat is between 12-24 inches. While I'd rather be using a european sword (like stated in my post above about the schiovana), I realize that for pure function, Japan is where you should look. That being said, my suggestion would be to get the parter or companion to the katana, the wakizashi. Indoors, the wakizashi is obviously more effective than a katana. It is light, one or two handed, strong, and can be primary or off hand in combat. I imagine that wielding two could be effective under many scenereos. They are also more easily concealed.

Unfortunately, I do have to agree with Long. I have swords in my house, and if someone broke in, I might use them, but I'm just as likely to use a kitchen knife, chair, clock, wife, coat hanger, or drapes in combat. There are situations where swords are appriopriate. There are situations where swords are not appropriate.

Plaid13

Ok just my thought on the custom made sword for home defense... have a shotgun built into the thing. I dont know what its like where you live but here if someone breaks into your house they will most likely have a gun and if you pull a sword on them they will just have an excuse to shoot you. If you need home defense and dont want a gun spend that money on a panic room instead. a nice cement box to lock yourself in till they leave.

debaser

You will have a lot of trouble justifying using a sword in a self defense scenario.

That being said, there is no "ideal" length for a blade. Take into account the PoB, Weight, OL, and CoP. Find a blade that feels good to you, and use that as your benchmark. Swords are a very personal investment, don't let anyone tell you what is best for you.

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Willravel

Let me clarify on my last post: Unless you're a Jedi, you will be wasting your money on a sword for home defence. I've trained for years in swordplay, and I know that there are only a handful of scenereos that home defence of a sword is the best option...and all of those options include an unarmed intruder. Because you won't know an intruder is armed until it's too late, the sword defence sceneros are out the window. Security doors and windows are a much better investment.

Ch'i

Striking someone with a sword, even if you aren't experienced, can be devestating if not fatal. Maybe you should learn how to submit an intruder rather than maim them. It takes more skill.

Baron Opal

I'm sorry, I've seem to have given the impression, somehow, that I am lurking about my house at night like some crazed vigilante Jedi wanna-be. This is not the case.

I like swords.
I like to know how to use swords.
I was wondering if there is an ideal geometry for a particular type of blade compared to an individual.
I have the means to get a custom sword, and want to get the best value for my money as well as the most efficient tool.

That's pretty much it.

The circumstances which would require its use in defending my family are highly unlikely. There is, regrettably, a non-zero chance that I will have an intruder and that the boken, kitchen knife, baseball bat, other sword, spear, chemical reagents, kukri, teddy bear, dictionary, flintlock rifle, cash, iron, fry pan, scimitar, guppy or any other potential implement of harm that I own will be farther away than this, currently potential, custom sword.

I do, however, appreciate y'all's concern that I am about to do something foolish. Thank you. I am not.

Thank you to those who replied.

longbough

Don't worry. I get it. Home defense isn't the issue here - it's just about getting a good sword. But, as stated above, length alone is only part of the equation. The "proper" length depends on the blade geometry, balance, type of martial art and your particular style.

Most martial artists have a variety of swords, sticks etc. of different weights, lengths and balances. You see, when you study with a sword it's ALWAYS awkward at first because you need to develop the strength and "muscle memory" to wield it. In that sense, it is you who adapts to the sword rather than the sword being built for the person.

If I were you I'd spend the money on just a quality non-custom blade. Then practice like heck - in time it'll feel natural in your hand. I remember my first solid hardwood bokken. I practiced with two hands but, with one hand, it was heavy and clumsy at first. After practice I developed the strength and coordination to use it with one hand - I walked around flipping light switches in the house with it.


**************
Slight digression - This would be cool to get: http://filmswords.com/conan/conan-sw...nniversary.htm
Imagine a burgler sneaking into the house ... you'll be perched at the top of the stairs with this thing as in a Frazetta painting.

Deltona Couple

Hmmm...I always say never bring a sword to a gunfight....lol

Personally I like the feel and comfort of a Katana, but to be honest, I don't even know the length of the one I used to own. I just knew it was comfortable in my hands.

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MooseMan3000

That literally had me choking on my own saliva. I hope you're happy, you funny, funny bastard.

shakran

since noone's answered the where-to-get-it question to your satisfaction, try Paul Chen of the Hanwei forge. He makes real swords, by which I mean if you find yourself in the middle of a 13th century Samauri battle you could use a Chen sword. They're not the prettiest swords because they are functional weapons. He's about as cheap as you're gonna get without getting a blade that's made so poorly as to be dangerous.

Of course, if you're still thinking of "swords" for self defense on occasion, might I suggest some kali lessons and a nice machete?

Fire

I would like to continue in the vein above, with acknowledgement that self defence is not the issue, but that it has become the focus of the thread, and I feel that some of my info is pertainent-Note that with regards to self defense according to the FBI- at 15 feet the guy with a knife has even odds on taking out a trained guy with a gun- flip a coin, seriously... We replicated that with trained police officers using airsoft guns and rubber knives and got, suprise suprise, a 50/50 result- if you increase the range to 21 feet it shifted to favor the gunman about 60/40 - at 12 feet though it is about 70/30 for the knife- note that this scenario assumes level three holsters with hand on gun, and knife in pocket to simulate draw times- note that a bad guy in the home might have the gun out, but is unlikely to be as good a shot as a cop... also, some swords are near worthless indoors, due to size, but others arent- finally, an important point with regards to firearms inside is the really loud noise- if you have not shot your defense gun inside, you should (old barns are good for this if you have permission) you will be amazed how disorienting it can be- a 12 gauge is like slapping both hands on your ears, hard........ Myself, I have a pair of large kukris, and some other assorted blades, as being a diabetic makes the eyes fluctuate, and precise aim is hard as a result...the wife, however, is a good shot, and has the guns by her side of the bed...

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Ch'i

I really, really, gate guns.

Anyway, that 50/50 scenario is interesting in a good way. I have learned several ways of disarming a man with a gun in close quarters, but its good to know that, even at a range, there's still a chance.

Did I mention I hate guns?

Deltona Couple

Interesting testing done there. However I feel it may have discounted the real world situation as far as the discussion here, home protection. For one, MOST houses don't have the distance ratios that you are talking about, nor I bet did the test have a couch, or a bed in between the two.( we ARE talking real world home defense here!) Also, I will look it up, but I think MOST home invasions that are ROBBERY related, the suspect usually does not have the knife in had(your test also showed knife in pocket) BUT in the case of MOST people living in a home, they are NOT going to have their gun in a level 3 holster, personally I have my pistol in hand if I am moving about with a suspected robber, with a Tac-light, and Laser sight....Hey, what can I say, I like to blind the person with a quick turn on of the flashlight, then KNOW that my bullets will hit where I want them to...lol.

On a side note, for those that have a HANDGUN for self defense in the home...I use what is called a Glazer bullet. It is a special "safety" round (oxymoron huh???) that will NOT penetrate a standard sheetrock wall of a home, but will REALLY screw up a person that it hits...AND they don't ricochet either.

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longbough

Deltona Couple, you said it.

I have both a handgun and a Surefire flashlight within reach. Never underestimate the effectiveness of a good flashlight in ruining an opponent's night-vision. You can test a high-output (e.g. 60-120 lumen) flashlight (these are not just maglights) in front of a mirror - it's like having a movie light in your face. An ideal home-defense firearm would have the light mounted on the pistol.

Just a small piece of advice. LEO friends of mine advised me against using "safety" ammunition (e.g. Glazer, BAT, Hydra-Shok, Starfire etc). The reason is that, if you happen to find yourself in a self-defense scenario (heaven forbid), which resulted in you shooting another person (say, a home invader) the use of non-standard "exotic" ammunition may make you look like some gun-nut homicidal vigilante to the jury/court/press. Similarly they advised against hand-loaded ammunition for the same reason.

Additionally, they advised that, ideally, you ought to practice with whatever ammunition you intend to use whenever possible. You don't want to find, at the critical moment, that JHPs misfeed in your weapon if you've been practicing with cheaper ball ammo. If you load JHPs you should practice as often as possible with JHPs at the range - if possible the same brand and loads. When I heard this advice I went to the range just to shoot out some of my Hydra-Shoks, Glazers (big fireball) and Starfires. Then I just purchased lots of ball ammo and just use those for both home defense and practice.

It's a tradeoff, I understand, since ball ammo will tend to go through walls and doors. But it's expensive to practice with JHPs all the time.

All in all I don't think it's a "grevious" mistake to use exotic ammo - because it is safer to use indoors. But the other factors ought to be considered.

Oh, and also try not to modify your defense weapon too much - outside of basic reliability. It might be a little tougher to be seen as a victim if you blasted a home invader to molecules with your .50 Browning M2HB Machine Gun.




hmmmm

This bedside table would be cool too ...

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"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Kensei

Actually there are a couple of good ways to calculate proper sword length for an individual. These two methods were used by the Japanese to decide on a sword length that would go well with the person. I think it can apply to other weapons, except perhaps those of a more specialized nature, which in turn have different applications, like rapier fighting and such.

Anyhow, these were used for the katana, and can apply to other weapons of course. First off, hold the blade straight down at your side, the point should be almost perpendicular with the ground. If you do not have atleast two inches between the point, and the ground, the blade is too long. Two to three inches of clearence is recommended.

Secondly, there is a more exacting method, which comes out with about the same result as the method above. Measure from the center of your chest to the tip of your longest finger, then add in the length of your little finger, this is your ideal sword length. This is one of the best ways to calculate a more exacting number, though sopme of you may not like how short a number you actually get. Too many folks rely on a swords length I think. Anyhow, you can go an inch either way and still be comfortable, however these two methods are the best there are, for katanas anyhow. Again, other sword have other attributes, some stronger, some weaker, and different ways of using.

Oh, and if your wondering, "Hey, your not taking into account grip length. How much is blade, and how much is grip?"

The Japanese took all that into account as well, and the formula is very simple. However long your ideal blade length is, 3/4 of that is blade, 1/4 is the grip length.

There you go, all you need to know about formulating ideal sword length, atleast when it comes to Katana's.

Hope I have been of some help here, should be. Knowledge is power, so use it I say.


Hmm, actually Chen swords are some of the worst out there, and are not considered to be of high quality, at least not by the sword community at large. It is a mis belief that has been spread amoung some sword users out there that his swords are some how superior. They are actually well overpriced, and I have visisted his Forge in Dalian, and it's not very impressive. Your paying for his name more then anything else, and he doesn't even play a very active role in the making of any of his swords anymore. Good guy, knowledgeable, but no better then some of the other forges in china which, while les well known, many produce far superior blades to Chens. How do I know, I live in China. If your lucky you can find a local smith who is also schooled in making swords, thats your best bet. Not an easy task, but if your going to live over here, and love swords, it's your best bet. I'd stay away from chen blades though. While many are differentially tempered, the heat treatment is often shoddy, they bend easily, try and bend one, likely you can, and it will stay bent, that's not good, not for 600 to 1,000. Not when you buy something for a fraction of that and it will not bend, no no, not good at all. Just have to know where to look.

If anyone wants to find out about some superior smiths over here, ones that don't sell huge numbers so have crappy quality control, let me know.

shakran

Well this fool's already banned, but just to make sure people don't read this paragraph and fall for it I'm gonna quote My Cousin Vinny here.

Everything this guy just said is bullshit.

Dude was amazing though. Lives in China but knows all about the Amish.

Strange Famous

I guess it also would have to do with the weight of the sword?

For me myself, I'd want something that I could swing with the right arm, and left me enough balance for a heavy metal pipe in the left. I'd say about the same length my arm is would be a good guess?

This is clearly not a very scientific answer.

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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Shimigami

The type of sword will depend on your style and type of body you have me i have a taller doby and i use a Simatami sword fighting style which is getting the most distance i use a 68" Hourse cutting sword cause of my hight i can use it easily and sheath it fast so it depends on what you are like

Plan9

I'm a six foot tall average guy. I think I'll go with the regular-sized Cold Steel katana at 29" instead of the O Katana size at 36". The 29" model will probably be easier to draw and resheath as well as handle during competitions.

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Whatever you can carry.

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ring

I am a 5'7 woman who was lucky enough to know a sword-maker.

I was fortunate to be in on the forging process.

The energies combined wraught a personal piece of Art that would be hard to put a price on.

I will step back and hear more...Thank you.

Willravel

Marry me?

ring

I am 48 and a bit jaded at the moment.

But yeah!!! why not?

Carry on people.. no disrespect intended.

Willravel

I could see my vows: One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

Plan9

But Will's already married. Wife. Kid. Fence. Geo Metro. Boxer Briefs. Product 19 w/ 2%.

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Whatever you can carry.

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ring

I'm giddy as a school boy....Stop now.

Shauk

oh jesus i'm dying here.

Plan9

/threadjack

"Well, Loretta says my 7" sword is fine... but I caught her looking at some real broadswords in Black Dix in White Chix 7."

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."