You Can Click, But You Can't Hide! (lokitorrent go bye bye)

[SecretMethod70]

From the front page of www.lokitorrent.com (a message from the MPAA who was granted a court-ordered shutdown of lokitorrent)

There are websites that provide legal downloads. This is not one of them.

This website has been permanently shut down by court order because it facilitates the illegal downloading of copyrighted motion pictures. The illegal downloading of motion pictures robs thousands of honest, hard-working people of their livelihood, and stifles creativity. Illegally downloading movies from sites such as these without proper authorization violates the law, is theft, and is not anonymous. Stealing movies leaves a trail. The only way not to get caught is to stop.

And, a disturbing comment that one can only hope is not true that I saw on www.torrentspy.com

Edward Webber, agreed to not only pay a substantial settlement with even greater financial penalties for any further such actions, but by Court Order must provide the MPAA with access to and copies of all logs and server data related to his illegal BitTorrent activities, which will provide a roadmap to others who have used LokiTorrent to engage in illegal activities.

This is as good a time as any to link to Lawrence Lessig's <a href="http://randomfoo.net/oscon/2002/lessig/">Free Culture</a>. Watch the 30 minute flash presentation (with audio). You will be thankful you did.

And then, if you're interested in more, get <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1594200068/102-8114619-4233767">the book</a>. You'll also be glad you did.

And after you've enriched your mind, mobilize along with everyone else....and create change. It's now or never.


EDIT: Oh, and since not everyone knows who Lawrence Lessig is (from www.lessig.org):

Lawrence Lessig is a Professor of Law at Stanford Law School and founder of the school's Center for Internet and Society. Prior to joining the Stanford faculty, he was the Berkman Professor of Law at Harvard Law School. Lessig was also a fellow at the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin, and a Professor at the University of Chicago Law School. He clerked for Judge Richard Posner on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals and Justice Antonin Scalia on the United States Supreme Court.

More recently, Professor Lessig represented web site operator Eric Eldred in the ground-breaking case Eldred v. Ashcroft, a challenge to the 1998 Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act. Lessig was named one of Scientific American's Top 50 Visionaries, for arguing "against interpretations of copyright that could stifle innovation and discourse online."

He is the author of The Future of Ideas and Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace. He also chairs the Creative Commons project. Professor Lessig is a boardmember of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a Board Member of the Center for the Public Domain, and a Commission Member of the Penn National Commission on Society, Culture and Community at the University of Pennsylvania.

Professor Lessig earned a BA in economics and a BS in management from the University of Pennsylvania, an MA in philosophy from Cambridge, and a JD from Yale.

Professor Lessig teaches and writes in the areas of constitutional law, contracts, comparative constitutional law, and the law of cyberspace. He is currently planning a course, Law and Virtual Worlds, for Spring 2003 with Julian Dibbell.

For more information, please see Steven Levy's profile of Professor Lessig in the October 2002 issue of Wired: Lawrence Lessig's Supreme Showdown or see his curriculum vitae.

[Moskie]

Yikes.

I was just there yesterday looking for a TV show I missed. I was never really interested in downloading movies. Screw you, MPAA!

Speaking along those lines, I assume that the MPAA doesn't represent the makers of television programming.. but is there an equivalent organization that does?

Ya know, you'd think some entrepreneur in the industry would capitalize on the fact that people like to download things. I would so prefer to pay to download a particular TV show (without commercials!) and watch it when/how/where I want, as opposed to the current system used for broadcast TV.

[sadistikdreams]

Pshaw. What's your point? Are you telling us that if we download a movie, theres a crystal clear path from where we got it to us? Bullchips. I'm not afriad of the MPAA. Not alot of people lose money from stolen movies, people STILL see them in the theatres. Even though I "steal" movies off the net, I still buy DVDs. But, damn, maybe the moviemakers should try to make better movies, instead of money off of movies that suck.

[SecretMethod70]

Originally Posted by Moskie

Yikes.

I was just there yesterday looking for a TV show I missed. I was never really interested in downloading movies. Screw you, MPAA!

Speaking along those lines, I assume that the MPAA doesn't represent the makers of television programming.. but is there an equivalent organization that does?

Ya know, you'd think some entrepreneur in the industry would capitalize on the fact that people like to download things. I would so prefer to pay to download a particular TV show (without commercials!) and watch it when/how/where I want, as opposed to the current system used for broadcast TV.

I wouldn't be surprised if the MPA were interested in that as well. AFAIK many TV stations have the same parent companies.

Originally Posted by sadistikdreams

Pshaw. What's your point? Are you telling us that if we download a movie, theres a crystal clear path from where we got it to us? Bullchips. I'm not afriad of the MPAA. Not alot of people lose money from stolen movies, people STILL see them in the theatres. Even though I "steal" movies off the net, I still buy DVDs. But, damn, maybe the moviemakers should try to make better movies, instead of money off of movies that suck.

Um, I was quoting the MPAA

However, there IS a pretty clear path to find you if they can get the courts to order people to hand over the information. I guess it's time for everyone to start using proxies. Not that those will provide complete obscurity, but it's better than nothing. Problem is, it slows the connection.

[canuckguy]

my view.....

you know whats stealing in my eyes?

the fact that tom hanks and people like mel gibson make 10 million dollars to make a movie. why so much, how about they get 1 million a movie. there are thousands of people who act for free just to act because they love the craft.
why does a movie cost 12 bucks to see at the show? see above....
why does madonna get 22 million to make a cd? why not 1 million and the cd price drops from 18 bucks a cd, to a reasonable 5 bucks. would she not be happy as more people could enjoy her music? no she only wants money. and yes i know we all want money but come on now, when you price yourself out of the loop your the fault not the technology.

the fact is that the pay scale has become insane. you don't deserve 12 million to make a movie or 9 million because you can play the guitar. i love that most of these starving artists start out doing free theatre or playing free shows because they love the music or acting. get a day job, there are tons of people who play guitar in a band and work 9-5 jobs.
sorry for the rant. I just can't stand the fact that these people make so much money for doing nothing. They should be happy there being paid at all for doing things they love. We need a salary cap like sports! If everyone who works in that industry took a pay cut (meaning the lawyers/producers...etc all the over paid peeps) then cd's/movies would cost what they should. the fact they cost so much is that so many people in the chain think they deserve all this money for doing jobs others would do for 300 bucks, not 300 thousand. sorry just my retarded opinion.

[canuckguy]

btw, i am not for stealing and downloading, but i just can't stand that the money these people get is so high. sure there famous and deserve a good pay, but hell the high pay for all these actors and other people in the chain is why the cost to buy cd or go to a movie is so high. like pro sports, its just become insane. sorry again. i am slightly drunk too so that does not help.

[ubertuber]

So... You guys do believe that you should be able to download and enjoy music and movies without ever paying for them?

[Glava]

Originally Posted by ubertuber

So... You guys do believe that you should be able to download and enjoy music and movies without ever paying for them?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[canuckguy]

Originally Posted by ubertuber

So... You guys do believe that you should be able to download and enjoy music and movies without ever paying for them?

um no, i say i don't support downloading...... but i do understand why people do.

[t3m3st]

This whole situation stinks. I too use Lokitorrent to download TV shows. I missed the season premier of Alias because I was working, for example, and was able to get the 2 hour premier off Lokitorrent. These sites are great for downloading TV, and it's gonna hurt if I can't do that anymore. I admit I download alot of music. About 15 gigs last month. But it's getting harder to find some of the stuff I'm looking for, so I've started buying off iTunes. Pretty cheap anyways. Whatever... just dont take away my tv downloads

[sadistikdreams]

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Um, I was quoting the MPAA

However, there IS a pretty clear path to find you if they can get the courts to order people to hand over the information. I guess it's time for everyone to start using proxies. Not that those will provide complete obscurity, but it's better than nothing. Problem is, it slows the connection.

Yeah, I know you were quoting. But what's your take on it? It's kinda confusing... You're like: "Read this, and then read this, and if you're interested... read this too". So I read the stuff. Okay, something about the MPAA. But how do I connect that back to SecretMethod70? There's just facts, no opinion. How can we discuss something at facts? I mean, if I knew that you were opposed to filesharing, which is what I assumed, I would post my opinion back. But this way is one sided.

And about the other part... I am damn sure that nobody could find me from where I've downloaded stuff. I mean, take TONS of legal action, and sure. Who's got the time or money to waste tracking me down from the one time I downloaded "Eternal Sunshine"?

[doubleaught]

Originally Posted by brian1975

my view.....

you know whats stealing in my eyes?

the fact that tom hanks and people like mel gibson make 10 million dollars to make a movie. why so much, how about they get 1 million a movie.

just to play devil's advocate: they make so much to compensate for their loss of a "normal" life. Think Tom Hanks or Madonna can go to the supermarket without getting mobbed? Attention levels like that would be fun for about a week.



/.... I still think they get paid a little too much myself, but at least you can see the flipside, yeah?

[SecretMethod70]

Sorry sadistikdreams, I guess I just sort of assumed most people had seen the trend of my posts in Tilted Computers which tend to only pertain to one of two issues. My bad.

No, I am not against file sharing. In fact, as the Free Culture presentation hints to, I am moreso against copyright. At least how it's been for the past hundred or so years especially.

Regarding the MPAA finding people, if someone has used lokitorrent to download something, they had to register. That means lokitorrent has that persons IP address. Furthermore, lokitorrent, if I'm not mistaken, as most registration bittorrent sites do, kept track of user stats, i.e. share ratios. In order to do this, the tracker knows and records the IP address of every user that connects to the tracker and what file they were downloading. There is no extensive searching required - the MPAA has all the IP addresses right there. And they, like the RIAA, will probably file a lawsuit against thousands of IP addresses, just waiting for the looming day in court when it is finally (and ominously) decided that ISPs, etc can be forced to turn over the info regarding who belonged to what IP at what time, and all at their own expense. So, no, all of this really doesn't require a lot of work on the part of the MPAA.

Originally Posted by ubertuber

So... You guys do believe that you should be able to download and enjoy music and movies without ever paying for them?

No. I believe that people who commit crimes ought to be responsible for their actions, and people who do not should not be treated like criminals. Lokitorrent was a tool. Lokitorrent did not host any files. This is no different than a lockpick, which is LEGAL in the majority of places in the US. If you use the lockpick to commit a crime, YOU are responsible, but the lockpick seller can't be bullied into shutting down because people use their lockpicks for crime.

Also, I take issue with the public opinion war that the RIAA and MPAA are waging (quite successfully) to make people equate copyright infringement and stealing. They are and always have been two separate and unrelated crimes. Unfortunately, recently, the collective force of these industries has been making inroads into changing the law so that they ARE equated. If you look at the history of copyright (which is touched upon in the flash Free Culture presentation) this pretty much goes against the very concept of why copyrights were created (don't be confused, if you're not familiar, some of the language Lessig uses to describe copyright infringement is MOCKING the language the MPAA, et al use (such as stealing), not agreeing with it).

The fact is, going after the people who actually commit crimes is too difficult and costly for the MPAA and RIAA. Changing their business model to account for technological advancements is too scary (see the Betamax fiasco, as well as the cassette tape fiasco, oh and the record fiasco, oh oh and also the radio fiasco - what's going on now is NOTHING new). So, instead, they're using their muscle to bully people (including 12 year old kids and dead 80 year olds who have never touched a computer!) into compliance until they can use that same muscle to influence politicians (through compaign contributions, etc) to change the law, this way the government can take over the bullying for them.

[Dilbert1234567]

i was downlaoding 'greatist speaches of the 20th century" i was 80% done, with none of the MP3's finished. tracker is down, so i cant get it any more. not all torrents are copywriten.

[shadowalker]

Another one bites the dust and i can care less. Gland there cracking down on movie, music and software theft. Yes i know there are many great things in the world of BT shareing that is not copywrited. But when the good stuff happens to be hosted where the illegal stuff is its a price you got to pay by downloading stuff where the others are hosted.

[bendsley]

Thanks to BitTorrent, I purchase more DVDs
Thanks to the MPAA, I buy them used...

[SecretMethod70]

Alright, some of the official story is coming out. Here's an article from arstechnica (emphasis mine):

Judge orders torrent site to close, release logs

2/10/2005 10:15:50 PM, by Eric Bangeman

In a victory for the Motion Picture Association of America, a US District Court judge in Texas has shut down BitTorrent site LokiTorrent.com and orded them to turn over their server logs to the MPAA's attorneys. As of now, visitors to the site are greeted with a friendly message from the MPAA. (Whether the message current LokiTorrent.com is part of the court order or an attempt on the part of the site's owner to curry favor with the MPAA is unclear.)

Ah yes, the old identifying trail. Since they now have the server logs, the MPAA plans to pore through them looking for identifying information that could lead to lawsuits against users of the site. A spokesperson for the MPAA said that such actions against high-volume users of the torrent site are likely, assuming they can be identified via IP addresses.

In December 2004, the MPAA decided to follow the trail blazed so spectacularly by the RIAA and file lawsuits against those they believed were sharing movies and other copyrighted material. The result was a barrage of lawsuits against torrent sites, Direct Connect hubs, and eDonkey servers. Popular sites like Supernova went dark as a result, while LokiTorrent raised over US$40,000 from its user base to cover legal costs. According to a statement by the MPAA, it looks as though most of that money will go towards a "substantial settlement," with more financial pain if the owner transgresses again.

With torrent sites under attack, it looks like those determined to trade movies and tv shows will have to move further underground. In its press release, MPAA boasts that there has been a 40 percent reduction in the number of servers in operation, and claims that piracy cost them upwards of US$3.5 billion in 2004. While widespread piracy of DVDs endemic to some nations definitely cost the motion picture industry money, studies have shown that downloading movies does little to change the habits of the US public when it comes to going to the movies, buying, or renting DVDs. In the meantime, I wonder how many P2P site operators will be checking out this bit of software from the EFF.

The widespread piracy he speaks of is primarily in places like China, etc. Places where the industries don't have the power to influence politicians greatly. It's funny, the downloading of movies has been shown to make little difference in the movie spending habits of Americans, but I'd love to see what kind of effect the witch hunt has had.

[tman17m]

im not talking about the actual removal of the lokitorrent website, but rather the implications from it. according to this news story:

http://p2pnet.net/story/3849

lokitorrent has not only been taken down, but the site admin has been ordered by the court to provide records of all activity on the site. that scares me a lot since i have visited that site from time to time, although ive only downloaded episodes of 24 which i would assume to be legal since its a public tv show

From what i understand (and sadly i dont have a link to reference), Television shows are free game for downloading. Anyone else have more information on that?

[Redlemon]

Originally Posted by thinktank

From what i understand (and sadly i dont have a link to reference), Television shows are free game for downloading. Anyone else have more information on that?

I seem to recall Cynthetiq talking it over with the lawyers at MTV, and they said "definately illegal". It was in a thread in here somewhere.

[SecretMethod70]

As far as I'm aware, broadcast television shows are OK to download *IF* the commercials are left intact - which is done about 0% of the time . So, if you downloaded broadcast TV shows from lokitorrent, it is likely not legit. Cable TV shows just aren't legit to download in the first place.

[the_marq]

Well downloading is still legal in Canada. You guys can stay on my couch if you bring beer.

[Glava]

Originally Posted by the_marq

Well downloading is still legal in Canada. You guys can stay on my couch if you bring beer.

But you people have polar bears and Arctic wolves lurking on every street.

[sinjien]

Well, let me just say that I am one of those guys who rarely downloads movies but will DL a pc title in a second to see if it is worth the $50. Most arent. And those DL'd games, after trying them out, are off my pc just as fast. The ones that were worth it I actually purchased. Call of Duty is one of them. I'm sorry but I will not spend money on the hope that a game will be what I want. Its like gambling; and I dont gamble. In regards to the film and movie industry losing money: "yeah fucking right". Brian1975 made a number of good points and he is right. No one is really losing money. I have yet to read definitve evidence of big screen actors being paid less money due to movie piracy. I truly feel that we the consumers are the ones being ripped off when we pay $18 for a crap cd or $10 for a bullshit movie.

[MichaelFarker]

I use torrents but I support taking legal action against people who violate existing copyright law.

I have downloaded and reuploaded torrents before. Not much, but that's because most of the time I don't want anything you'd need a torrent for. What I'd really love is a torrent site dedicated to material from people who just want their work to be seen.

I can accept it if the people that made what I downloaded take me to court. They can force me to pay the $5 I have cost them or something equally fair.

Take the site I got it from too. Take their nonexistant profit and shut them down. They were giving you free advertising, but who needs that? It won't help the people represented by the MPAA but it makes their lawyers look great in the press.

Seriously, we need to have a way for someone to make something and say "that is mine" long enough to make a living. On the other hand, today's copyright law is too restrictive. It is dictated by corporations and bribed politicians far seperated from the creation of ideas and entertainment. These legal battles are an attempt to inflate prices beyond what creative people and customers need with the profits feeding the big studios. In the process we are stifling the creation of art by our fellow Americans.

Just my opinion.

[vinaur]

If you guys are still into torrents, the new (not sure how new, so it could be a bit oldish) eXeem client uses torrents, but it gets rid of the need for a tracker. It has a search and works sort of like FastTrack and Overnet. Just giving a heads up.

BTW, I am for downloading for all the reasons mentioned already and because it makes sense. I said this in the other post, but I'll repeat it again. Downloading should not be considered illegal, because a) you don't know what you're getting and b) it's offered to you for free. Now uploading is another story and while I would love to say that it should be legal as well, I can see the arguments of the other side.

[Slavakion]

I'll just add that I'll be really pissed if the *AA somehow manages to kill BT (Long shot, I know. But never underestimate large corporations). I was downloading some linux ISOs a few weeks ago. Average speed? Probably 700 kb/s. Where else are you gonna get speeds like that?

[SecretMethod70]

That's precisely why they'll have such a hard time shutting it out. Of all the p2p networks, bittorrent is used for a tremendous amount of LEGAL things.

[TexanAvenger]

Originally Posted by the_marq

Well downloading is still legal in Canada. You guys can stay on my couch if you bring beer.

heh... I'm game. Got a favorite kind?

[doubleaught]

... just came back to checkup on this thread -- you guys know this turned out to be a hoax? Turns out the owner took the almost $30K from the "legal defense fund" (preceding the shut down of course) and ran. What a bitch.

I can probably find the article again if you can't google it.

[SecretMethod70]

Well, this is as good a thread as any to point out that there are some pretty cool legal torrent sites out there as well:
http://bt.etree.org/index.php
http://www.prodigem.com/torrents/
http://www.legaltorrents.com/

[maximusveritas]

Originally Posted by doubleaught

... just came back to checkup on this thread -- you guys know this turned out to be a hoax? Turns out the owner took the almost $30K from the "legal defense fund" (preceding the shut down of course) and ran. What a bitch.

I can probably find the article again if you can't google it.

the article you're referring to appears to have been somewhat refuted here:
http://www.joegratz.net/archives/200...awsuit-no-hoax

[spillblood]

If you change some of the words around it makes for a nice backround

[spillblood]

and yes its too bad loki had to go. it truly was was of the better torrent sites.

[crafty]

As consumers we decide whether or not to pay for entertainment. If we don't think the Tom Hanks movie deserves our $10, then we don't have to pay it.

Some of the justifications people use are rediculous. You can not decide how much people should make for a movie! You can only decide whether or not to pay for it and support their income, and if you choose not to pay for it you have no right to enjoy it!. Nobody is forcing this stuff on you.

[omega2K4]

It was sad that LokiTorrent had to go, but I still stick with (Sweden-based) The Pirate Bay. Check out their 'legal threats' section for some hilarious letters.