New PC for gaming - Advice needed :) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

andrewtayloruk · 10-18-2004, 02:14 AM

Hi,

I've tried searching the web for some good articles on PC gaming hardware but everything seems either really hardcore expensive or trying to sell me something. I though i'd get some propper advice.

I've been involved with the IT industry for 10 years, I started building 386's and early 486's, I was really into stuff back then. I then got my BSc in computing and started focussing more on IT management. I kept my hand in and the last computer I built was around 1999. I blew a good deal of money on the original cartridge (slot A?) Athlon 1Ghz, an Abit KA7, 1GB of ram, 2 IBM deskstar 40GB UDMA133 hard-drives to run RAID0 and a GeForce2 with 64MB. I had horrendus problems with it (as did everyone else) USB was flaky, the RAID controller was flaky, everything was less than impressive. I struggled on at the bleeding ege for about 6 months then cashed in my chips (quite literally!) and sold the lot, monitor et al.

I bought a notebook and whilst I couldn't play any games I worked happily in stability heaven. I graduated from a Sony Vaio to an Apple powerbook and I've been switched since early 2003.

Seeing some of the latest and greatest games to come out, Doom3, Sims2, Half-Life 2 etc I'm itching to build a new PC for playing games.

The first thing I've noticed is how expensive everything is! I remeber paying around £180/£200 for my Geforce2 when it was the bees knees, now all the new graphics cards seem to cost the best part of £350! What happened to innovation? Sure, they're much faster and capable than my original but jeeez there must be something that doesn't cost the earth?

I figure I'm going to go Intel, probably a P4 3.0Ghz, I'll pickup a motheboard from MSI and some crucial RAM, a case with a 450W PSU will be easy enough. A couple of serial ATA drives will be fine but what graphics and sound? Do I go PCI-X or AGP?

Is it really worth building my own anymore? Dell are doing a Dimension 8400 3.0Ghz, 1GB of RAM with a 128MB Radeon 9600Pro and 320GB of RAID for around £700.

I've always been happy with 2K, do I need XP to run the latest and greatest games? IS PC Gaming still really hard to get reliable? I remember having to install the latest Nvidia reference drivers every other week to get them stable with a the VIA4in1 then that would stop the soundcard working etc etc etc.

Should I just stick with an XBOX

What do you all think?

Cheers

Andrew

MooseMan3000 · 10-18-2004, 12:06 PM

To answer your main question, building your own PC is absolutely still worth it. Dell computers cut corners on components (mainly memory) that make the computer significantly slower than advertised. You do have to maintain your own machine if you build it yourself, but that's not a big problem if you know what you're doing.

As far as graphics cards go, you mentioned 350 pound prices. (Sorry, my American keyboard doesn't have the character, and I'm too lazy to look up the ascii code.) I assume that's for a Radeon X800 or a GeForce 6800, the top of the line at the moment. For the first time, such an enormous price is actually justified, because the performance jump between this generation and last generation of cards is so large. If you're willing to pay top dollar (or pound, as it were) for the cards, then it's worth it. If, however, you want to save a little money, then you can go back to the last generation of cards and get a Radeon 9800 Pro for (I'm guessing here) about 170 pounds. That card will run the hell out of any new games for at least a couple years. The Radeon 9600 Pro you mentioned on the Dell system, however, is just BEGGING to be outdated. My 9500 is just getting to be unplayable on newer games, and I'll probably buy a 9800 soon.

As far as stability goes, it's not really a problem. You said you're comfortable with Win2k, and Win2k will work with any of the newer games. XP, however, is just generally speaking more compatible with everything, since it's newer. That's just how operating systems work. Win2k will work, but XP will work better

PC gaming is much more reliable now than it was even a few years ago, and it constantly gets better. I built my current machine from scratch about 2 years ago, and I've had no problems, even with the dated graphics card. And companies have really cracked down on driver problems, because the market is so much more competitive now, so 99% of problems can be fixed by downloading a 2MB file, and even that isn't often necessary.

My next question is... why Pentium? You cited two main factors in the desire to build your own maching: cost and gaming. AMD beats Intel on both of those counts, any day of the week. AMD Athlon Processors consistently outperform Pentiums for a smaller price. Rather than a Pentium 4 3.0 GHz, I would recommend an AMD Athlon XP 3200 (Barton). That will save you money and get you better performance.

Sound cards are really just a matter of preference. Many gamers choose to use onboard sound with their motherboards, and unless you're a serious audiophile, that's fine. I chose to get a Sound Blaster Audigy, but that's because I use my PC as a media center as well, the the surround sound and configuration options are nice to have. It also reduces strain on the processor, but not enough to make a fuss about. (And certainly not enough to justify the price of a primo sound card if that's your only concern)

So then, I think that's all your questions. If not, feel free to ask more.

Cheers

jonjon42 · 10-18-2004, 12:38 PM

oh about your question on AGP vs PCI express
if you plan to continue a regular update cycle (next 6-8 months) go pci express. However if your going to just mostly live and let be (update in like 2-3 years) you might as well go for the currently cheaper AGP stuff.

I can vouch that of the top of the line cards the 6800gt is a great value...

can clock that mother quite a bit past ultra speed

and AMD is awesome

Lasereth · 10-18-2004, 02:18 PM

What's your budget (in USD)? That's a major factor. It may not be worth upgrading if you don't have the money right now. Once ya answer that I can give ya a gaming PC list of components.

-Lasereth

skaven · 10-18-2004, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewtayloruk

I blew a good deal of money on the original cartridge (slot A?) Athlon 1Ghz, an Abit KA7, 1GB of ram, 2 IBM deskstar 40GB UDMA133 hard-drives to run RAID0 and a GeForce2 with 64MB. I had horrendus problems with it (as did everyone else) USB was flaky, the RAID controller was flaky, everything was less than impressive. I struggled on at the bleeding ege for about 6 months then cashed in my chips (quite literally!) and sold the lot, monitor et al.

Unfortunately this was a common experience with the early Athlons, and caused a lot of people to view AMD as a "knock-off" chip maker. The problems really boiled down to poor chipset designs (both from AMD and VIA) that caused the flaky performance with peripherals. The slot Athlons also ran very very hot, which made them pretty unstable for gaming.

I assure you that a LOT has changed since then. Motherboards based on nVidia's nForce2 and nForce3 chipsets, as well as VIA's K7 and K8 chipsets are much more stable than before. The key is to get a board from a reputable manufacturer, like Abit or Asus.

I can understand your desire to switch to Intel, however for a gaming rig, I believe you'll see that an AMD rig (especially one based on a socket 939 Athlon64 processor) will SMOKE anything Intel can throw at it for the same price.

sailor · 10-18-2004, 07:42 PM

Ill echo that a lot has changed with AMD processors. Ive used several: an old Thunderbird 1.4, a few XP models, and now a 64 model. All have worked perfectly without a flaw. What problems they may have had are now gone.

Mephisto2 · 10-18-2004, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

What's your budget (in USD)? That's a major factor. It may not be worth upgrading if you don't have the money right now. Once ya answer that I can give ya a gaming PC list of components.

-Lasereth

Well Sterling runs about 3:1 for the US dollar, and he mentioned that he was tempted by the 700 Pound Sterling DELL.

So...

:-)

I would infer around $2,000 maximum. Anything more than that is a bit OTT for games. Especially when an Xbox is less than $300.

I myself really want to upgrade, but like Andrew, find it a bit hard to justify spending so much money on a games machine, when the Xbox (or even PS2) shits all over the PC for gaming value (bang for the buck).

I just wish I didn't want to play Doom3 and HL2 so much.

Mr Mephisto

andrewtayloruk · 10-19-2004, 01:38 AM

Thanks for the replies, they've all helped me loads.

So now I'm looking at building my own machine. Initially I wanted away from AMD because I'd had so many problems in the past, I suppose I'll have to add the costs together and compare.

The dollar runs about 1UKP to $1.70 so £700 should give me around the $1200/1300 mark.

I can get a 128MB 9800Pro Radeon for around the £140 mark or a 256MB of the same card for £175. Presumably like anything, the more RAM the better.

There also seems to be XT variations and SE and plain old 9800 not PRO. Is the PRO the best choice?

I like the 'sound' of on-board sound much less to worry about if it's part of the motherboard. I'm really reluctant to choose ABIT, I had massive headaches with their technical support last time, I've always had good luck with MSI, would you class them as a reputable brand?

Is the socket 754 worth considering? I've seen Athlon 939 chips but struggle finding a motherboard. I'm using the website at www.pcindex.co.uk which is like kelkoo but for UK computer vendors.

Thanks again for all your help

Lasereth · 10-19-2004, 08:20 AM

$1,200 USD? That'll make one hell of a computer!

Asus K8V SE Deluxe - $137
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 1 MB L2 - $210
1 GB PC3200 Corsair Value - $150
Western Digital Raptor SATA 10k RPM 76 GB - $120
Case - $50
Enermax, Sparkle, Antec, Thermaltake PSU 350w - $50
Cables - $30
Lite-On DVD-RW - $65
NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT AGP - $400

I can't recommend a better system for $1,200-$1,300 USD! Socket 754 is fine. Oh, and PC games are only as reliable as your hardware...my old PC was unstable as hell for two straight years. I tried everything to fix it but nothing worked. When I upgraded to my current motherboard and CPU, everything stopped and worked fine. Cheap, cheesy hardware will result in more gaming problems than any software problems.

-Lasereth

AngelicVampire · 10-19-2004, 12:05 PM

try buying imported components... UK prices suck for high end components, if you buy in dollars and import its soooooo much cheaper normally.

Mephisto2 · 10-19-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewtayloruk

The dollar runs about 1UKP to $1.70 so £700 should give me around the $1200/1300 mark.

God, is that all it gives now? I was confusing the Aussie dollar to Sterling rate, so apologies for getting it wrong. Still.... 1200 bucks to play 3 or 4 games is a lot of money.

I just wish my wife wouldn't keep harping on about this "so-called" mortgage thingey...

Mr Mephisto

G5_Todd · 10-19-2004, 08:58 PM

pcie all the way.....why get a new pc and not get the lastest tech

antisuck · 10-19-2004, 11:08 PM

Some good advice in here IMHO.

To answer an earlier question that might have been missed, if you decide to go with an ATI video card the XT is always the top of a given range, with Pro following closely behind. Cards without either usually trail substantially, and any other suffixes like LE should be avoided at all cost, they are NOT for people at all serious about games.

Also you asked about MSI - I've had nothing but good luck with them, I have built 4 systems based on MSI boards in the last couple of years for myself and family. There are many many good motherboards out there though, so don't take my endorsement as the last word on it or anything.

10-18-2004, 02:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
andrewtayloruk Upright	New PC for gaming - Advice needed :) Hi, I've tried searching the web for some good articles on PC gaming hardware but everything seems either really hardcore expensive or trying to sell me something. I though i'd get some propper advice. I've been involved with the IT industry for 10 years, I started building 386's and early 486's, I was really into stuff back then. I then got my BSc in computing and started focussing more on IT management. I kept my hand in and the last computer I built was around 1999. I blew a good deal of money on the original cartridge (slot A?) Athlon 1Ghz, an Abit KA7, 1GB of ram, 2 IBM deskstar 40GB UDMA133 hard-drives to run RAID0 and a GeForce2 with 64MB. I had horrendus problems with it (as did everyone else) USB was flaky, the RAID controller was flaky, everything was less than impressive. I struggled on at the bleeding ege for about 6 months then cashed in my chips (quite literally!) and sold the lot, monitor et al. I bought a notebook and whilst I couldn't play any games I worked happily in stability heaven. I graduated from a Sony Vaio to an Apple powerbook and I've been switched since early 2003. Seeing some of the latest and greatest games to come out, Doom3, Sims2, Half-Life 2 etc I'm itching to build a new PC for playing games. The first thing I've noticed is how expensive everything is! I remeber paying around £180/£200 for my Geforce2 when it was the bees knees, now all the new graphics cards seem to cost the best part of £350! What happened to innovation? Sure, they're much faster and capable than my original but jeeez there must be something that doesn't cost the earth? I figure I'm going to go Intel, probably a P4 3.0Ghz, I'll pickup a motheboard from MSI and some crucial RAM, a case with a 450W PSU will be easy enough. A couple of serial ATA drives will be fine but what graphics and sound? Do I go PCI-X or AGP? Is it really worth building my own anymore? Dell are doing a Dimension 8400 3.0Ghz, 1GB of RAM with a 128MB Radeon 9600Pro and 320GB of RAID for around £700. I've always been happy with 2K, do I need XP to run the latest and greatest games? IS PC Gaming still really hard to get reliable? I remember having to install the latest Nvidia reference drivers every other week to get them stable with a the VIA4in1 then that would stop the soundcard working etc etc etc. Should I just stick with an XBOX What do you all think? Cheers Andrew

10-18-2004, 12:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
jonjon42 Psycho Location: inside my own mind	oh about your question on AGP vs PCI express if you plan to continue a regular update cycle (next 6-8 months) go pci express. However if your going to just mostly live and let be (update in like 2-3 years) you might as well go for the currently cheaper AGP stuff. I can vouch that of the top of the line cards the 6800gt is a great value... can clock that mother quite a bit past ultra speed and AMD is awesome __________________ A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

10-18-2004, 02:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	What's your budget (in USD)? That's a major factor. It may not be worth upgrading if you don't have the money right now. Once ya answer that I can give ya a gaming PC list of components. -Lasereth __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

10-18-2004, 07:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
sailor beauty in the breakdown Location: Chapel Hill, NC	Ill echo that a lot has changed with AMD processors. Ive used several: an old Thunderbird 1.4, a few XP models, and now a 64 model. All have worked perfectly without a flaw. What problems they may have had are now gone. __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." --Plato

10-19-2004, 01:38 AM	#8 (permalink)
andrewtayloruk Upright	more information Thanks for the replies, they've all helped me loads. So now I'm looking at building my own machine. Initially I wanted away from AMD because I'd had so many problems in the past, I suppose I'll have to add the costs together and compare. The dollar runs about 1UKP to $1.70 so £700 should give me around the $1200/1300 mark. I can get a 128MB 9800Pro Radeon for around the £140 mark or a 256MB of the same card for £175. Presumably like anything, the more RAM the better. There also seems to be XT variations and SE and plain old 9800 not PRO. Is the PRO the best choice? I like the 'sound' of on-board sound much less to worry about if it's part of the motherboard. I'm really reluctant to choose ABIT, I had massive headaches with their technical support last time, I've always had good luck with MSI, would you class them as a reputable brand? Is the socket 754 worth considering? I've seen Athlon 939 chips but struggle finding a motherboard. I'm using the website at www.pcindex.co.uk which is like kelkoo but for UK computer vendors. Thanks again for all your help

10-18-2004, 12:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
MooseMan3000 wouldn't mind being a ninja. Location: Maine, the Other White State.	To answer your main question, building your own PC is absolutely still worth it. Dell computers cut corners on components (mainly memory) that make the computer significantly slower than advertised. You do have to maintain your own machine if you build it yourself, but that's not a big problem if you know what you're doing. As far as graphics cards go, you mentioned 350 pound prices. (Sorry, my American keyboard doesn't have the character, and I'm too lazy to look up the ascii code.) I assume that's for a Radeon X800 or a GeForce 6800, the top of the line at the moment. For the first time, such an enormous price is actually justified, because the performance jump between this generation and last generation of cards is so large. If you're willing to pay top dollar (or pound, as it were) for the cards, then it's worth it. If, however, you want to save a little money, then you can go back to the last generation of cards and get a Radeon 9800 Pro for (I'm guessing here) about 170 pounds. That card will run the hell out of any new games for at least a couple years. The Radeon 9600 Pro you mentioned on the Dell system, however, is just BEGGING to be outdated. My 9500 is just getting to be unplayable on newer games, and I'll probably buy a 9800 soon. As far as stability goes, it's not really a problem. You said you're comfortable with Win2k, and Win2k will work with any of the newer games. XP, however, is just generally speaking more compatible with everything, since it's newer. That's just how operating systems work. Win2k will work, but XP will work better PC gaming is much more reliable now than it was even a few years ago, and it constantly gets better. I built my current machine from scratch about 2 years ago, and I've had no problems, even with the dated graphics card. And companies have really cracked down on driver problems, because the market is so much more competitive now, so 99% of problems can be fixed by downloading a 2MB file, and even that isn't often necessary. My next question is... why Pentium? You cited two main factors in the desire to build your own maching: cost and gaming. AMD beats Intel on both of those counts, any day of the week. AMD Athlon Processors consistently outperform Pentiums for a smaller price. Rather than a Pentium 4 3.0 GHz, I would recommend an AMD Athlon XP 3200 (Barton). That will save you money and get you better performance. Sound cards are really just a matter of preference. Many gamers choose to use onboard sound with their motherboards, and unless you're a serious audiophile, that's fine. I chose to get a Sound Blaster Audigy, but that's because I use my PC as a media center as well, the the surround sound and configuration options are nice to have. It also reduces strain on the processor, but not enough to make a fuss about. (And certainly not enough to justify the price of a primo sound card if that's your only concern) So then, I think that's all your questions. If not, feel free to ask more. Cheers

10-19-2004, 08:20 AM	#9 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	$1,200 USD? That'll make one hell of a computer! Asus K8V SE Deluxe - $137 AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 1 MB L2 - $210 1 GB PC3200 Corsair Value - $150 Western Digital Raptor SATA 10k RPM 76 GB - $120 Case - $50 Enermax, Sparkle, Antec, Thermaltake PSU 350w - $50 Cables - $30 Lite-On DVD-RW - $65 NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT AGP - $400 I can't recommend a better system for $1,200-$1,300 USD! Socket 754 is fine. Oh, and PC games are only as reliable as your hardware...my old PC was unstable as hell for two straight years. I tried everything to fix it but nothing worked. When I upgraded to my current motherboard and CPU, everything stopped and worked fine. Cheap, cheesy hardware will result in more gaming problems than any software problems. -Lasereth __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

10-19-2004, 12:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	try buying imported components... UK prices suck for high end components, if you buy in dollars and import its soooooo much cheaper normally.

10-19-2004, 08:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
G5_Todd Junkie Location: Reichstag	pcie all the way.....why get a new pc and not get the lastest tech

10-19-2004, 11:08 PM	#13 (permalink)
antisuck Tilted Location: Tacoma, WA, USA, Earth	Some good advice in here IMHO. To answer an earlier question that might have been missed, if you decide to go with an ATI video card the XT is always the top of a given range, with Pro following closely behind. Cards without either usually trail substantially, and any other suffixes like LE should be avoided at all cost, they are NOT for people at all serious about games. Also you asked about MSI - I've had nothing but good luck with them, I have built 4 systems based on MSI boards in the last couple of years for myself and family. There are many many good motherboards out there though, so don't take my endorsement as the last word on it or anything.