jujueye

Lets make one thing perfectly clear: tube amps do not always cost more. I really don't know where that came from. Don't believe me? Check out the homepage for this amplifier manufacturer: http://www.boulderamp.com/. The amplifier shown on their homepage is the Boulder 1050. 500 watts, monoblock. At $37,500 for the pair, there are obviously cheaper items to buy. This is an SS amp. Statements like "tube amps are more expensive" are just not true.

Nelson, I said earlier that "the first watt is the most important" and I'll stand by it. If you only knew how many watts you were really using when your stereo is cranking out 100dB, you would see what I mean. I have heard many demos of so-called underpowered amplifiers that would drive most sane people from the room.

Tubes do not sound best when driven to clipping. I'm not sure where you got that. The neat thing about tubes is that they clip far more gracefully than an SS circuit. This is not a golden ear thing, anyone can hear it. Classifying someone as a golden ear is like telling someone who loves fine art or photography that they are a "vision snob".

BTW - shakran - PERFECT! So many people just take some sale geek's word. Excellent suggestion!

jaypc2

tube amps always sound better but with all the digital modeling and other advancements in sound engineering the difference between solid-state and tube amps is alot harder to notice. so if your on a budget go with the solid-state amps

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Zero Cool
stay sexy

supafly

Here ia link to my site, here you can find the schematics and some pictures:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gschep/PSB72/Buizen%20versterker/Schema's/

The schematics for the amplifier and power suply are in different folders named versterker and voeding. For pictures go to the parent parent directory and click Foto's.

Today I sound checked the amp and it sounds amazing. The money (aprox. 500 usd) and time (aprox 200 hours) I spend designing/building it were well worth it.

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Thumbs up

Nelson

Jujueye - put your money where your mouth is - follow this link:
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showt...threadid=18815

Theres $10,000.00 waiting for you. Hundreds have tried and not one check has been written.

Give it a read and let me know what you think

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Nelson

jujueye

Nelson - I'm not trying to make you mad or even sound like I'm some kind of irritating snob. Please pm me if I am!!!

Ah, the Richard Clark link rears it's head again, eh? Did you show me that because I said you could hear tubes clipping? OK! (I still think any remotely trained ear can hear tubes clip...) Unfortunately for me, there will be no 10K check in the mail as rule 12 says, "Although anyone is welcome to take the test, only subjects employed in the car audio industry or Car Sound subscribers are eligible for the $10,000.00 prize." Clark is an intelligent man, and I have read much that he has written, but I do find his dismissal of tube designs to be strange. Personally, I thought his rules morph part way through the list to somehow start to include car audio gear. Oh well, its his test, eh?

I still want to know what his gig is about making an ss amp sound like a tube amp with a few parts. One part on that link suggests putting a resistor in line with the output. So this is the same as turning the volume down. Resistors resists, right? TO me ,that just wouldn't do it. If you even consider putting the resistor on the ground side, it should only change the output impedance, and would again have no effect on the sound. I am a bit weary of those suggestions, but would really have to hear it to believe it.

Thanks for the link and lively conversation. Few threads in this category on tfp get over one page! Congrats!

Nelson

jujueye - not at all mad - I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone

As for the challenge - The rules I linked to are very old - Richard has since opened up the challenge to anyone willing to take it. I have followed many a post by golden ears who come up with every excuse under the sun to discredit his statements. Funny thing is not one of them has ever followed through and taken the test to prove him wrong!

Im not a 'Clarkie' by any means - but I do enjoy his straight talk. Being in the industry for many years it has become very apparent to me that consumers are overly driven by markeneering.

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Nelson

jujueye

Cool. Are the links somewhere on that page? I'd like to see the excuses! I would bet many of them refer to the setup, which looks very tight.

I took part in a blind (not double blind) test a few years back. Myself and a bunch of audio geeks here in Seattle... We were fiddling with cables, gear, etc. Nothing organized or anything. Well, most of the group got snowed on the first trial. Our test administrator at the time simply shut off the gear, fiddled around like he changed something, then turned it all back on and played the same track again. My notes read, "didn't hear much difference." I was so happy when he later told us he changed nothing between trial one and two. hahaha.... The Power of suggestion, eh?

Still...a home audio combination of a tube preamp and ss amplifier, to me, is a fantastic combination...

Nelson

Do a search in the forum section I posted above. Use the search 'amp challenge' in Richard Clarks forum. I found 4 pages. I get a laugh everytime someone brings it back to light.

This was one of the better ones: http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimate...=022785#000000

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Nelson

jujueye

Geez, Clark gets a little pissy, doesn't he? As soon as someone gets remotely technical, he gets tactical-technical on their ass. What a cranky guy! He says, "...that would make at least a few of the snobby home audio guys pause for at least a few thoughts..." I'm so sick of this. What a dick. He says this and calls home audio guys snobby? Gimme a break.

soundmotor

I applaud RC's efforts to de-voodoo-ize the cult of sound. The one thing however that has always bothered me about the challenge is that you cannot directly compare one amplifier to another "as is" without first setting them to essentially equal characteristics and only evaluate their performance within their linear range of operation, i.e. unclipped. In effect you would be negating any differences between them at the front-end of the challenge. Under those circumstances, all amplifiers would have to sound the same.

soundmotor

Nelson

soundmotor - I think you are mis reading the rules of the challenge. The only things that are changed or eliminated are those that alter the signal. For example - all crossovers, eq's, built in DSP etc. must be bypassed.

Think of it this way: Amp manufacturer 'A' claims their amplifier delivers buttery bass, and creamy highs. BUT this is achieved not through amplification but processing - why would it be fair to compare that amp to another amp that does not use any processing?

B

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Nelson

ubertuber

Because that's how they sell them. Why would you compare them under a circumstance that is different from how you would buy and use the equipment? Am I missing something?

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

soundmotor

Clark's test (each time I've read through the parameters) seems to be based on negating differences due to any side-chain processing (as you've noted) as well as only allowing direct A/B comparisons within the range of linear operation for the amplifiers under test. In other words, it appears to find the space where the amplifiers are equivalent but excludes everything else from comparison. In other, other words, my wife is a girl, therefore she is identical to Angelina Jolie.



Within the scope of the amp challenge, that seems to be the postulate.

soundmotor

Nelson

Whats wrong with comparing amps within their linear operating range? Have you ever heard a company claim 'our amplifier sounds terrific when drivin to hard clipping'?

And the challenge is a comparison of amplifiers NOT processors - so why shouldnt they be eliminated from the loop?

If Im considering buying a mid-level dodge neon based on gas mileage, interior comfort, and ride quality why would I ever let the salesman ice over me with a test drive of the turbo charged Neon SRT4 with upgraded interior and handling??

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Nelson

Nelson

Angelina Jolie indeed may have more 'processing/DSP' than your wife (I have no idea) LOL - but if they were compared as female humans Im sure both would qualify and neither would have any qualities that made them a better female human than the other.

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Nelson

soundmotor

Thank you for that!

soundmotor

soundmotor

Because that is not real world usage. Amplifiers do get driven into clipping during actual use on a regular basis. It is certainly important to me that they sound good under any usage condition, not an artificial one designed to guarantee a specific outcome.

Re-read what I wrote. I am in complete agreement with you & RC on this.

Because you've a theory on sheep's bladders being used to prevent earthquakes perhaps? That makes as much sense as your analogy in the context of this discussion, yes?



soundmotor

n0nsensical

Within their operating range, solid state amplifiers can generally reproduce the original signal more accurately, that much can be proven with a spectrum analyzer. However, you may or may not want to accurately reproduce the original signal, and you may or may not want to use the amplifier within its operating range.

Not with that exact phrasing, but driving an amplifier to clipping is exactly what's done when distorting an electric guitar. So yes, guitar amp manufacturers DO claim that all the time.

Most people find tubes to sound better when overdriven, and some people prefer the sound that tubes add to recorded music. So when comparing tubes and solid state, everyone should consider that amplifiers are used for different purposes and people have different preferences.

jujueye

Well...not sure what you mean there. Typically, tubes are far more linear than ss devices. And a well designed tube amplifier can swing more voltage at it's output than ss designs, which helps portrayal of dynamics better. Tubes are voltage amplifiers, as opposed to ss devices being current amplifiers. Because of this, tubes require less negative feedback to make the circuit linear.

Oh, also, tubes distort with even-order harmonics (at their peak). These are described as less intrusive than odd-order harmonics. SS designs distort with odd-order harmonics (at their peak).

BRILLIANT!!!

Nelson

LAFF - these are the same things that always get brought up with the amp challenge.

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Nelson

n0nsensical

Well, I could be wrong, but it was my impression that taking the voltage as the audio signal, the input and output of solid state devices are generally closer than those of tubes. The difference the tubes add is what people like about their sound. But I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.

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jujueye

The whole warmth thing: maybe, just maybe it's not a warmth thing. Maybe that's how music should sound anyway...

I will reiterate something else you touched on: it depends on the music system as a whole. Achieving a "correct musical balance" is a very personal thing. I know my tastes have changed drastically in the last 20 years. We're all different and all seek to find what we believe is correct.

Me neither. It's a great hobby and I love learning more about it when I can.

As for you, Nelson: I hear ya. When things get boiled down to their basic components, they do very very similar things. *sigh*

Nelson

You cant take away the emotional part of the equation though. There is something to be said for the feeling you get when you walk into a room that is heated by a pair of Krell monobloc amps. Or a dimly lit room with a set of tube amps glowing in the corner. Sex sells - and theres something 'sensual' about the whole thing.

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Nelson

soundmotor

Nelson -

If you are using anything other than the amplifier sections ripped from 2 mismatched clock radios for your listening pleasure, you are a hypocrite.



soundmotor

Nelson

Good one Im not a Clarkie - I do agree with most of his assertions, but Im a sucker for the sex appeal

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Nelson

soundmotor

Would that include his endorsement of Monster Cable products too?

soundmotor

Nelson

Not at all. And he no longer endorses them. I attended a seminar with David Navone when the two of them did endorese Monster - it was quite entertaining. BOSE and Monster Cable = Markineering at its best.

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Nelson

soundmotor

Clark is just another industry personality with something to sell. He's got his acolytes & detractors like the rest of them.

soundmotor