Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Interests > Tilted Technology


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-28-2004, 03:33 PM   #41 (permalink)
alpaca lunch for the trip
 
jujueye's Avatar
 
Location: in my computer
Lets make one thing perfectly clear: tube amps do not always cost more. I really don't know where that came from. Don't believe me? Check out the homepage for this amplifier manufacturer: http://www.boulderamp.com/. The amplifier shown on their homepage is the Boulder 1050. 500 watts, monoblock. At $37,500 for the pair, there are obviously cheaper items to buy. This is an SS amp. Statements like "tube amps are more expensive" are just not true.

Nelson, I said earlier that "the first watt is the most important" and I'll stand by it. If you only knew how many watts you were really using when your stereo is cranking out 100dB, you would see what I mean. I have heard many demos of so-called underpowered amplifiers that would drive most sane people from the room.

Tubes do not sound best when driven to clipping. I'm not sure where you got that. The neat thing about tubes is that they clip far more gracefully than an SS circuit. This is not a golden ear thing, anyone can hear it. Classifying someone as a golden ear is like telling someone who loves fine art or photography that they are a "vision snob".

BTW - shakran - PERFECT! So many people just take some sale geek's word. Excellent suggestion!
jujueye is offline  
Old 12-28-2004, 05:58 PM   #42 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Location: south east
tube amps always sound better but with all the digital modeling and other advancements in sound engineering the difference between solid-state and tube amps is alot harder to notice. so if your on a budget go with the solid-state amps
__________________
Zero Cool
stay sexy
jaypc2 is offline  
Old 12-29-2004, 08:15 AM   #43 (permalink)
Psycho
 
supafly's Avatar
 
Location: Rotterdam
Here ia link to my site, here you can find the schematics and some pictures:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gschep/PSB72/Buizen%20versterker/Schema's/

The schematics for the amplifier and power suply are in different folders named versterker and voeding. For pictures go to the parent parent directory and click Foto's.

Today I sound checked the amp and it sounds amazing. The money (aprox. 500 usd) and time (aprox 200 hours) I spend designing/building it were well worth it.
__________________
Thumbs up
supafly is offline  
Old 12-29-2004, 06:41 PM   #44 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Jujueye - put your money where your mouth is - follow this link:
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showt...threadid=18815

Theres $10,000.00 waiting for you. Hundreds have tried and not one check has been written.

Give it a read and let me know what you think
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 12-29-2004, 10:28 PM   #45 (permalink)
alpaca lunch for the trip
 
jujueye's Avatar
 
Location: in my computer
Nelson - I'm not trying to make you mad or even sound like I'm some kind of irritating snob. Please pm me if I am!!!

Ah, the Richard Clark link rears it's head again, eh? Did you show me that because I said you could hear tubes clipping? OK! (I still think any remotely trained ear can hear tubes clip...) Unfortunately for me, there will be no 10K check in the mail as rule 12 says, "Although anyone is welcome to take the test, only subjects employed in the car audio industry or Car Sound subscribers are eligible for the $10,000.00 prize." Clark is an intelligent man, and I have read much that he has written, but I do find his dismissal of tube designs to be strange. Personally, I thought his rules morph part way through the list to somehow start to include car audio gear. Oh well, its his test, eh?

I still want to know what his gig is about making an ss amp sound like a tube amp with a few parts. One part on that link suggests putting a resistor in line with the output. So this is the same as turning the volume down. Resistors resists, right? TO me ,that just wouldn't do it. If you even consider putting the resistor on the ground side, it should only change the output impedance, and would again have no effect on the sound. I am a bit weary of those suggestions, but would really have to hear it to believe it.

Thanks for the link and lively conversation. Few threads in this category on tfp get over one page! Congrats!
jujueye is offline  
Old 12-30-2004, 07:46 AM   #46 (permalink)
Tilted
 
jujueye - not at all mad - I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone

As for the challenge - The rules I linked to are very old - Richard has since opened up the challenge to anyone willing to take it. I have followed many a post by golden ears who come up with every excuse under the sun to discredit his statements. Funny thing is not one of them has ever followed through and taken the test to prove him wrong!

Im not a 'Clarkie' by any means - but I do enjoy his straight talk. Being in the industry for many years it has become very apparent to me that consumers are overly driven by markeneering.
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 12-30-2004, 02:21 PM   #47 (permalink)
alpaca lunch for the trip
 
jujueye's Avatar
 
Location: in my computer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
- Richard has since opened up the challenge to anyone willing to take it. I have followed many a post by golden ears who come up with every excuse under the sun to discredit his statements.
Cool. Are the links somewhere on that page? I'd like to see the excuses! I would bet many of them refer to the setup, which looks very tight.

I took part in a blind (not double blind) test a few years back. Myself and a bunch of audio geeks here in Seattle... We were fiddling with cables, gear, etc. Nothing organized or anything. Well, most of the group got snowed on the first trial. Our test administrator at the time simply shut off the gear, fiddled around like he changed something, then turned it all back on and played the same track again. My notes read, "didn't hear much difference." I was so happy when he later told us he changed nothing between trial one and two. hahaha.... The Power of suggestion, eh?

Still...a home audio combination of a tube preamp and ss amplifier, to me, is a fantastic combination...
jujueye is offline  
Old 12-30-2004, 05:24 PM   #48 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Do a search in the forum section I posted above. Use the search 'amp challenge' in Richard Clarks forum. I found 4 pages. I get a laugh everytime someone brings it back to light.

This was one of the better ones: http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimate...=022785#000000
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 01-04-2005, 09:01 PM   #49 (permalink)
alpaca lunch for the trip
 
jujueye's Avatar
 
Location: in my computer
Geez, Clark gets a little pissy, doesn't he? As soon as someone gets remotely technical, he gets tactical-technical on their ass. What a cranky guy! He says, "...that would make at least a few of the snobby home audio guys pause for at least a few thoughts..." I'm so sick of this. What a dick. He says this and calls home audio guys snobby? Gimme a break.
jujueye is offline  
Old 02-01-2005, 02:41 PM   #50 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Near & There
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Do a search in the forum section I posted above. Use the search 'amp challenge' in Richard Clarks forum. I found 4 pages. I get a laugh everytime someone brings it back to light.

This was one of the better ones: http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimate...=022785#000000

I applaud RC's efforts to de-voodoo-ize the cult of sound. The one thing however that has always bothered me about the challenge is that you cannot directly compare one amplifier to another "as is" without first setting them to essentially equal characteristics and only evaluate their performance within their linear range of operation, i.e. unclipped. In effect you would be negating any differences between them at the front-end of the challenge. Under those circumstances, all amplifiers would have to sound the same.

soundmotor
soundmotor is offline  
Old 02-01-2005, 04:24 PM   #51 (permalink)
Tilted
 
soundmotor - I think you are mis reading the rules of the challenge. The only things that are changed or eliminated are those that alter the signal. For example - all crossovers, eq's, built in DSP etc. must be bypassed.

Think of it this way: Amp manufacturer 'A' claims their amplifier delivers buttery bass, and creamy highs. BUT this is achieved not through amplification but processing - why would it be fair to compare that amp to another amp that does not use any processing?

B
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 02-01-2005, 07:18 PM   #52 (permalink)
spudly
 
ubertuber's Avatar
 
Location: Ellay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Think of it this way: Amp manufacturer 'A' claims their amplifier delivers buttery bass, and creamy highs. BUT this is achieved not through amplification but processing - why would it be fair to compare that amp to another amp that does not use any processing?

B
Because that's how they sell them. Why would you compare them under a circumstance that is different from how you would buy and use the equipment? Am I missing something?
__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam
ubertuber is offline  
Old 02-01-2005, 08:21 PM   #53 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Near & There
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
soundmotor - I think you are mis reading the rules of the challenge. The only things that are changed or eliminated are those that alter the signal. For example - all crossovers, eq's, built in DSP etc. must be bypassed.

Think of it this way: Amp manufacturer 'A' claims their amplifier delivers buttery bass, and creamy highs. BUT this is achieved not through amplification but processing - why would it be fair to compare that amp to another amp that does not use any processing?

B



Clark's test (each time I've read through the parameters) seems to be based on negating differences due to any side-chain processing (as you've noted) as well as only allowing direct A/B comparisons within the range of linear operation for the amplifiers under test. In other words, it appears to find the space where the amplifiers are equivalent but excludes everything else from comparison. In other, other words, my wife is a girl, therefore she is identical to Angelina Jolie.



Within the scope of the amp challenge, that seems to be the postulate.

soundmotor

Last edited by soundmotor; 02-01-2005 at 08:25 PM..
soundmotor is offline  
Old 02-02-2005, 07:55 AM   #54 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Whats wrong with comparing amps within their linear operating range? Have you ever heard a company claim 'our amplifier sounds terrific when drivin to hard clipping'?

And the challenge is a comparison of amplifiers NOT processors - so why shouldnt they be eliminated from the loop?

If Im considering buying a mid-level dodge neon based on gas mileage, interior comfort, and ride quality why would I ever let the salesman ice over me with a test drive of the turbo charged Neon SRT4 with upgraded interior and handling??
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 02-02-2005, 08:01 AM   #55 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundmotor
In other, other words, my wife is a girl, therefore she is identical to Angelina Jolie.



Within the scope of the amp challenge, that seems to be the postulate.

soundmotor

Angelina Jolie indeed may have more 'processing/DSP' than your wife (I have no idea) LOL - but if they were compared as female humans Im sure both would qualify and neither would have any qualities that made them a better female human than the other.
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 02-02-2005, 09:39 AM   #56 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Near & There
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Angelina Jolie indeed may have more 'processing/DSP' than your wife (I have no idea) LOL - but if they were compared as female humans Im sure both would qualify and neither would have any qualities that made them a better female human than the other.



Thank you for that!

soundmotor
soundmotor is offline  
Old 02-02-2005, 09:45 AM   #57 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Near & There
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Whats wrong with comparing amps within their linear operating range? Have you ever heard a company claim 'our amplifier sounds terrific when drivin to hard clipping'?
Because that is not real world usage. Amplifiers do get driven into clipping during actual use on a regular basis. It is certainly important to me that they sound good under any usage condition, not an artificial one designed to guarantee a specific outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
And the challenge is a comparison of amplifiers NOT processors - so why shouldnt they be eliminated from the loop?
Re-read what I wrote. I am in complete agreement with you & RC on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
If Im considering buying a mid-level dodge neon based on gas mileage, interior comfort, and ride quality why would I ever let the salesman ice over me with a test drive of the turbo charged Neon SRT4 with upgraded interior and handling??
Because you've a theory on sheep's bladders being used to prevent earthquakes perhaps? That makes as much sense as your analogy in the context of this discussion, yes?



soundmotor
soundmotor is offline  
Old 02-09-2005, 05:21 PM   #58 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: San Francisco
Within their operating range, solid state amplifiers can generally reproduce the original signal more accurately, that much can be proven with a spectrum analyzer. However, you may or may not want to accurately reproduce the original signal, and you may or may not want to use the amplifier within its operating range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Whats wrong with comparing amps within their linear operating range? Have you ever heard a company claim 'our amplifier sounds terrific when drivin to hard clipping'?
Not with that exact phrasing, but driving an amplifier to clipping is exactly what's done when distorting an electric guitar. So yes, guitar amp manufacturers DO claim that all the time.

Most people find tubes to sound better when overdriven, and some people prefer the sound that tubes add to recorded music. So when comparing tubes and solid state, everyone should consider that amplifiers are used for different purposes and people have different preferences.
n0nsensical is offline  
Old 02-12-2005, 11:12 PM   #59 (permalink)
alpaca lunch for the trip
 
jujueye's Avatar
 
Location: in my computer
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
Within their operating range, solid state amplifiers can generally reproduce the original signal more accurately, that much can be proven with a spectrum analyzer.
Well...not sure what you mean there. Typically, tubes are far more linear than ss devices. And a well designed tube amplifier can swing more voltage at it's output than ss designs, which helps portrayal of dynamics better. Tubes are voltage amplifiers, as opposed to ss devices being current amplifiers. Because of this, tubes require less negative feedback to make the circuit linear.

Oh, also, tubes distort with even-order harmonics (at their peak). These are described as less intrusive than odd-order harmonics. SS designs distort with odd-order harmonics (at their peak).

Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
So when comparing tubes and solid state, everyone should consider that amplifiers are used for different purposes and people have different preferences.
BRILLIANT!!!
jujueye is offline  
Old 02-13-2005, 03:35 PM   #60 (permalink)
Tilted
 
LAFF - these are the same things that always get brought up with the amp challenge.
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 02-13-2005, 03:43 PM   #61 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: San Francisco
Quote:
Originally Posted by jujueye
Well...not sure what you mean there. Typically, tubes are far more linear than ss devices. And a well designed tube amplifier can swing more voltage at it's output than ss designs, which helps portrayal of dynamics better. Tubes are voltage amplifiers, as opposed to ss devices being current amplifiers. Because of this, tubes require less negative feedback to make the circuit linear.
Well, I could be wrong, but it was my impression that taking the voltage as the audio signal, the input and output of solid state devices are generally closer than those of tubes. The difference the tubes add is what people like about their sound. But I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.
__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln
n0nsensical is offline  
Old 02-13-2005, 05:09 PM   #62 (permalink)
alpaca lunch for the trip
 
jujueye's Avatar
 
Location: in my computer
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
The difference the tubes add is what people like about their sound.
The whole warmth thing: maybe, just maybe it's not a warmth thing. Maybe that's how music should sound anyway...

I will reiterate something else you touched on: it depends on the music system as a whole. Achieving a "correct musical balance" is a very personal thing. I know my tastes have changed drastically in the last 20 years. We're all different and all seek to find what we believe is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
But I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.
Me neither. It's a great hobby and I love learning more about it when I can.

As for you, Nelson: I hear ya. When things get boiled down to their basic components, they do very very similar things. *sigh*
jujueye is offline  
Old 02-13-2005, 09:23 PM   #63 (permalink)
Tilted
 
You cant take away the emotional part of the equation though. There is something to be said for the feeling you get when you walk into a room that is heated by a pair of Krell monobloc amps. Or a dimly lit room with a set of tube amps glowing in the corner. Sex sells - and theres something 'sensual' about the whole thing.
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 02-14-2005, 12:33 PM   #64 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Near & There
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
You cant take away the emotional part of the equation though. There is something to be said for the feeling you get when you walk into a room that is heated by a pair of Krell monobloc amps. Or a dimly lit room with a set of tube amps glowing in the corner. Sex sells - and theres something 'sensual' about the whole thing.

Nelson -

If you are using anything other than the amplifier sections ripped from 2 mismatched clock radios for your listening pleasure, you are a hypocrite.



soundmotor
soundmotor is offline  
Old 02-14-2005, 02:04 PM   #65 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundmotor
Nelson -

If you are using anything other than the amplifier sections ripped from 2 mismatched clock radios for your listening pleasure, you are a hypocrite.



soundmotor
Good one Im not a Clarkie - I do agree with most of his assertions, but Im a sucker for the sex appeal
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 02-14-2005, 05:01 PM   #66 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Near & There
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Im not a Clarkie - I do agree with most of his assertions
Would that include his endorsement of Monster Cable products too?

soundmotor
soundmotor is offline  
Old 02-15-2005, 01:16 PM   #67 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundmotor
Would that include his endorsement of Monster Cable products too?

soundmotor
Not at all. And he no longer endorses them. I attended a seminar with David Navone when the two of them did endorese Monster - it was quite entertaining. BOSE and Monster Cable = Markineering at its best.
__________________
Nelson
Nelson is offline  
Old 02-15-2005, 05:40 PM   #68 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Near & There
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
Not at all. And he no longer endorses them. I attended a seminar with David Navone when the two of them did endorese Monster - it was quite entertaining. BOSE and Monster Cable = Markineering at its best.
Clark is just another industry personality with something to sell. He's got his acolytes & detractors like the rest of them.

soundmotor
soundmotor is offline  
 

Tags
amps, audio, glass, solid, state, tube


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:11 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360