brandon11983

1. We have been doing just fine with only one mouse button since our machines have been around.
2. The fact that Microsoft knew about a certain security flaw 3 weeks before they patched it is apalling. Since I have had my Mac (6+ months), I can count the number of security updates needed on one hand. There were more security updates needed for XP in one week.
4. You don't get a choice for quality components that are in your system. They get top line parts put in off the shelf. They also adhere to much stricter quality control standards than other manufacturers.
6. Yes, that is the Dock. It has all the icons you would see on an XP desktop, only at a higher resolution and they scale much better. Even if you dont know what the icon for Word looks like, roll your mouse over it, and its name "Microsoft Word" is revealed.
10. I literally cannot imagine anyone finding OS X cumbersome to use, but whatever. Trying to sound as unbiased as I can, I will (again) reiterate again that I am very fluent in XP, and I find OS X much easier to use and navigate. Applications do not crash, and the OS does not lock up for no apparent reason

*still waiting for his software list*

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Willravel

bendsley - 1000 pardons. I did mean Windows, more specifically than PCs. I am actually a big fan of FreeBSD. I am not used to making that destinction, so I'll have to change my lingo.
Cityofangels -
1.I am typing on a computer that has a little apple insignia on the computer and attached to that is none other than a mouse with 4 buttons and a mousewheel. Yes, it came seperatly, but I am still quite certian that Mac's can use multi-use mouses.
2. I apprciate that Windows seems to be intersted in keeping your computer safe, but why so often? A regular basis for updates on Mac is very much longer than a regular basis for Windows in this case.
3. I would be glad to show you a list, but instead I'll give you a website! http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL....3.1.1.0?68,38
You'll notice that popular games like Age of Empires II, Age of Mythology, AvP, Battlefield 1942, Call to Duty, Command and Conquer, Ghost Recon, Halo, Homeworld II, James Bond Nightfire, Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, 4 Medal of Honor games, Rainbow 6, Spider-Man 2, Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4, Unreal 2004, and Warcraft III are all available on Mac. This isn't even a complete list of Mac games.
4. My Mac has upgraded memory, HDD, and video card. You can build any computer you want, so long as you have the skill necessary. Mac users usually don't upgrade because they are happy with the performance of their computers right off the shelf and stock.
5. Personal prefrence, of course.
6. Yes, but you can put it anywhere you want. The dock can be compared to the strip at the bottom of Windows. If you minimize a window or program, it will be accecessable from the dock. The dock also holds applications and the trash (Mac version of a recycling bin).
7. Passing off an opinion as fact is not truth.
8. Covered above in 4
9. Emulators are a way around the real thing.
10. Apple Computers designes their Mac product line to work best with the OS designed with it, Mac OS. Someone using Windows exclusively on a Mac is missing the point.

oblar

just figured i would throw in my 0.02 about a few of the statements made within.

1) Saying a device is "missing" a button is basically like comparing a remote control to one tv to another. This remote is missing X number of buttons. My current keyboard has ~130 keys, and I use it like my old 104 keyboard. More buttons != better. Plus, as stated before, you can always use a different mouse. I was using a two button mouse for about a year before I fronted the cash for a new one, I wouldn't say it was "missing" a scrollwheel and it was for PC (although, I missed the scrollwheel)

2) Yes, I find OS X to be cumbersome (but not too bad), but I am also not a big fan of GUIs. My typical GUI has 3-6 console windows open, and that is it. Using menus and icons just isn't for me. However, this is my personal preference, it doesn't mean OS X is a bad operating system, it just means to me it is more difficult to use.

3) The application gap (other than with mainstream games) has closed significantly to almost the point of being nonexistant, although if you are a programmer and you typically program for a certain processer family, then another processer family doesn't do too much good (this becomes a PPC vs x86 debate then, which isn't a Mac vs Windows issue any longer)*


*Yes, I know that you can run other OS's on PPC and vice versa, but the fact is, most people with PPC use a Mac OS, and most people who use x86 don't, so it is best to stay with the group you are targetting.

TheBrit

My desktop is Windows XP, my laptop is OS X, my FTP/music/print server is OS X, my number crunching machine is NetBSD. Right, just pointing out that I'm both experienced and not loyal to the death for any brand.
There is a lot of bull flying through this thread.

OK, the right click thing.
Buy a two button USB mouse with a scrollwheel.
My OS X server has a Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer on it (iThink that is what it's called...) It is optical, has two buttons and a scrollwheel. Problem sorted.

Games:
If you are a hardcore gamer, don't buy a mac. It's that simple. I play games, but not heavily. A bit of Warcraft 3 on the mac occasionally, a bit of Doom 3 on the XP machine, but I haven't touched either for a couple of weeks. If you might want to play occasionally, get whatever you want that fits your other needs.

General Software:
What do you do on your PC? The mac will handle word processing, internet use, programming, DTP, design and basically everything the average home user can throw at it. When it comes to specialised tasks, there are things that the Windows PC won't do, will do, and in between (I'm thinking POSIX tools here.) OS X will run POSIX with minor tweaking, and many useful things have been ported already.

Fiddling/tweaking:
Pick up a book on BSD and you will basically learn how to fiddle and tweak with an OS X machine to your hearts content.

I think that covers a lot of the main problems people have with the mac. I'll return to see what else can be thrown at us defenders as a whole .
A little reminder at the bottom of this post as well, I use OS X, XP, BSD and occasionally linux.

brandon11983

*tapping pen on table*

... still waiting for software...

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Menoman

Well, this is an easy thread.

I can have a comp that performs better, for less money. It can play pretty much everything I want it to. I don't have to worry about "hard to find programs".

About "these comps don't need upgraded every year like PCs, so they don't need to be upgradable" Well, My new computer(See thread "New comp for doom3") will not need upgraded for quite a few years, I can assure you that much. Also, when it does need upgraded, it'll be cheaper for me to upgrade, than it is for you to buy a new comp.

Why buy a computer that can "work its way around" features, when you can just pay less, and get one with standard features.

With mac's thats what its all about, extra purchases so that you can run it more like "windows"

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Menoman

and when we name some software, what will you do? You'll search the internet and find a program "like" the one we name. All the while we are at staples buying the program we want.

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Flyguy

Most if not all PC software won't work on Mac last time I checked. Everytime I go into Comp USA to buy software there's a Mac section that is made up of 2 or 3 shelves in the back.

pixelbend

Who buys software off the self anymore? Check over at amazon.com or warehouse.com or something.

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Lasereth

Alright, I'll narrow my hatred down to a couple of facts.

1. They're way more expensive than PC's. You can't build it yourself. You can upgrade, but it's limited.

2. I don't like the OS. There is a big software library, but it's harder to find Mac software than PC software at a store and on the Internet.

That's my main concerns with Macs. The only thing that's not a fact is my not liking the OS (which is an opinion). The rest are facts...plain and simple. They're more expensive, less upgradeable, and the software (while plentiful) isn't as large as the PC-based software. Why use a system that has less software than a PC? MacOS and Macs may get the job done, but if another system gets it done with more software and more support, I don't see a reason to use a Mac.

-Lasereth

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bendsley

willravel: damn right! and i accept your apology =P

I think most people on here just assume everyone uses windows because most people don't know there is anything else out there.

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hulk

Macs are, and have been for the last decade or so, professional machines. It's honestly like comparing a Mercedes to a beat-up old Ford. Sure, you can build a Ford yourself from a kit, and for a lot less than a mercedes. Parts are everywhere. If you build it well enough, it'll probably go a lot faster. But hell, I'd still much rather have a Mercedes than a beat up old Ford. Or even over a shiny nice new Ford. It's a matter of taste =)

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"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
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mikec

brandon...I'm still not clear.....are you very fluent in XP or not? heheheh. You don't need to keep saying it.

why doesn't a new mac just come with a damn 2 or 3 button mouse? everyone just says "buy one", but if these machines come with the instructions as put in this thread "plug in, power on", then why would you need to buy a mouse separately? and for the price, I don't see why you would have to add on. Dell/Compaq provides a 2 button mouse w/a scroll wheel, why not the mac? It's the little touch that means so much.

and you can't do it all w/just one mouse button...it's one mouse button, AND the keyboard, damnit. apple+click, right?

IMO, the bottom line is:

I build, but even if I didn't, Mac vs. Dell, dollar for dollar, is a no win situation for the mac. And nothing has to be assembled w/the dell either.

Windows gets a bad rap, because 90% of the world uses it, so yes, there are more trojans, virus', etc. Now if Mac did what Windows does, and made it so it could work on 1000's of different hardware configs, perhaps that % would drop. Linux is still difficult for the layman, which is why more people are not using it, and honestly, macs are too expensive, which is why more people are not using them. If mac had the guts to make their system work with my pc config, I would try running OSX. Until then, I will not waste my money on sub-par hardware to run the mac OS. XP and 2kadvanced server have been nothing but good to me.

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docbungle

A better question perhaps is why is everyone so defensive of Macs? We don't like them for the reasons we've laid out above. Which is what you asked for. I've read the whole thread and haven't come accross one reason to switch to Mac. There is nothing it will do better for me than my home-built pc.

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Bad Luck City

Lasereth

A simple analysis of PCs versus Macs:

Will Macs do everything that PCs will? No. Will PCs do everything that Macs will do? Yes. Are PCs less expensive than Macs? Yes.

That's it! If you like MacOS better, fine, but we're stating clear reasons why we like PC's better.

-Lasereth

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Willravel

Actually: Will Macs do everything that Windows will? Not without an emulator. Will Windows do everything that Macs will do? Of course not. Whoever thinks that they can do anything on Windows as can be done on a Mac has not used Macs extensivly enough to make such a claim. This is not a clear reason. It is missinformation.
Bottom line (and there always is one) is that it comes down to brand prefrence. One is not better than the other. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. It's like saying Coke is better than Pepsi.

Fallon

Yet most of this thread you've been insinuating that Macs are the far superior OS...

AngelicVampire

On the security issue, sure windows may be less secure generally than Mac OSX (which is a unix kernel if I am not mistaken) however if the same number of virus writers turned their attentions to Mac os as they do to windows then Mac Os would probably need patched as well, as it is its not worth hitting Mac's with a virus because there are not enough to make a difference... imagine spamming microsoft with say 10,000 requests, 100,000, 1,000,000 or say even 10,000,000... not a lot compared to the number of PC you can hit becuase their users will click on an attatchment that comes in, what is the current ratio of mac's to Windows machines, I am willing to bet that the market share of windows computers is greater than Mac OS computers, say 95-98 / 5-2 ...

Willravel

This is proposterous. Everyone of my posts has tried to explain that certian beliefs about Macs are myths. The only actual insinuation against Windows was that the constant updates are annoying. You need to read the whole thread and think about it before trying to attack someone.

Whether Mac is superrior or not is moot to the point of the thread. This is about why people hate Mac. There ARE people out there with unfounded hatred towards Mac and Mac OS. This is a thread to address them.

You have succeded in only one thing: pissing me off. Your unfounded insinuation was a blatent attack on me personally. TFP is for people who can show respect for others. My suggestion to you would be to avoid attacking people. The Mods are very specific about behavior on this site.

Angelic Vampire: I couldn't agree more. The market share for Mac is about 2% as of a few weeks ago. It would probably be a waste of time to try and infect Macs. It's a good point. There are Mac viruses out there, though.

TheBrit

Tell you why I choose to run a mac as well as my other platforms:
It just works. It's that simple. Over the last 4 years I have been running 3 macs. I cannot remember a single time the computer has crashed or needed me to reboot it.

Lasereth

Yet you attacked me earlier in this very thread. Hypocrite!

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

kutulu

If the updates are really that annoying to get updates all you have to do is set it up to download and install windows updates automatically. It's not that hard.

Rebooting:

Are you really going to make a claim that Macs are better because of a 60 second once/day (or even week) reboot is that much of an inconvenience? lol

tspikes51

First, let me say that I have plenty of experience on both Mac and PC.

I feel the need to have what I want in my PC like I feel the need to have what I want in a car: some manufacturers make things that suit me better. Macs have a very limited list of third party hardware. So I guess I like PC's better because I need versatility. Second, almost all games come out much later on Mac than they do on PC. 'Nuff said.

Macs are great for stuff like graphic design, music composition, word processing, and similar applications, but that's about it. OSX Panther is making strides, but I still need a PC.

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Willravel

No dude. I did not attack you. What I did was take apart your argument. You claimed that you can't use a right click mouse on a Mac. I said you could. This is a normal conversation. It was based on my knowledge of Macs. I simply corrected you. If you view my correcting you as an attack, I'm sorry you see it that way. It wasn't intended that way.
What Fallon said is that I was expressing a bias. This was wrong and didn't address the theme of the thread at all. It was a personal attack. I responded appropriatally.

Let's keep on topic.

Holo

Third time now I've posted it....


Newsbin Pro
Proxomitron



Only two but these are two apps I refuse to live without at this time.

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mad_sn00gans

Alright, after quickly skimming through various responses....I have this to say....
Someone probably mentioned this already but anyway....

Neither is better than the other...it all depends on what you want to do with it..

Like it was mentioned before but I can't remember who, the mac is mainly designed for digital media design...The PC is an all around system but with some things that the MAC is better at. It just all depends on what your computer is going to be used for.

I have a decent amount of experience in digital design and system administration and I have to say the Macintosh far surpasses Windows in this domain....and here you can say PC Sucks

However, if you are a gamer then turn away from the mac...you won't find anything here...and this is where you will say the mac sucks..

If you are a programmer, but one who can adapt to many different environments, remember OS X is built over unix, so you can do almost anything you want...just need the patience to read a few documents on how to use certain features you might not know existed in the Apple environment

...However if you are a programmer who is a Microsoft monkey then think no more my dear friends...for we all know Microsoft = Windows.....hence you have no use for a mac and PC is your way to go.

People always attack Mac cause its the "cool" thing to do...cause you're stupid if you like mac....well you can be stupid if you like Windows too....it just all depends on what you want to use your computer for.

I do have to say though, I agree with alot of you people who complained about the customization of the hardware in the Mac...you're very limited there and the price does hurt.

I have been a PC user for about 6 years now, and owned a MAC for about 10 years of my life before my change to PC...Currently, however I am looking in to getting an apple to revamp my network here at home....

Oh, and to close the argument about the mouse thing.....at my last job I worked on a powerbook and I attached the logitech MX700 to it and I used ALL the buttons on that mouse....so YES YOU CAN ATTACH DOUBLE BUTTON MICE TO A MAC AND IT WILL WORK PERFECTLY!

cheers

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Lasereth

You said I didn't know PC's extensively even though I showed no reasoning for that. That's an attack! And damn right, let's keep it on topic. I don't care if ya defend against my claims, but you did say that I didn't know much about PC's. That was uncalled for.

Either way, I agree that this thread is useless. People who enjoy Macs will enjoy Macs and people who enjoy PCs will enjoy PCs.

-Lasereth

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Paradise Lost

I'd probably use a Mac if all the gaming Windows has was supported by Mac, other
than that, no complaints.

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Willravel

What I said was that because you made such an obvious mistake (the Mac right click mistake) the rest of the information on Mac was suspect.

"If he is not aware of something as simple as mouse ability on an Apple made computer, he does not know very much about Macs, much like someone who does not know the pothagorean therum is not going to be a good mathemitician. Becuase this information source is now suspect, the rest of the information presented is also suspect. He may know a great deal about PCs, but he might not. He claimed to have used Macs extensively but made a simple error."

You were very selective in your understanding of what I said. I said that you may know a great deal of PCs, but you might not. You lost credibility with the mouse claim and I pointed it out. I DID NOT SAY THAT YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT PCS. I said that you might or night not. Do you understand the difference? You think I said you didn't know PCs, I said you might or might not know PCs. See the difference?

soccerchamp76

I built my PC.
I cannot build a Mac.
There are more viruses because everybody uses Microsoft Windows. If you are a virus writer, do you want to target 90% of the people, or 10% of the people? Viruses/spyware are easily avoidable by the knowledgeable user. Any person can buy a computer for $300 bucks, get internet access, open every attachment and spread viruses to more people.

PC > Mac

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Willravel

Soccerchamp, I built my Mac. I bought an eMac and wanted a larger HDD, more memory, and a better video card. So I went out and bought the necessary parts and installed them. That is basically building. If you want to buy Mac parts seperatly, you can. You can buy a PPC motherboard and slap it in a tower just as you would with any other motherboard. You can build off of it if you want.
Also, GO CARDINALS!!!

Lasereth

You're forgetting what ya said earlier.

<IMG SRC=http://www.appstate.edu/~bt52438/threadeject.jpg>

-Lasereth

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MageB420666

I didn't have time to read through all the other posts, so if some of my reasons are already listed and discussed, I'm sorry.

The reasons:

I like more than one mouse button.
I like the mouse wheel.
I like being able to turn off the comp with the power button.
I like being able to eject a cd without going through command list.
I prefer the way that windows looks.
I like having the standard system commands available no matter what program I have running(unless it's a game or other full screen program.)


And I know that many of you are going to think I'm crazy and an idiot for saying this, but I like having a system that doesn't work all the time and has problems.

I have an explanation for this last one. If the computer worked fine and had nothing go wrong with it, then I would never have any reason to go into the utilities and advanced commands. I would know a lot less about computers than I know now if I didn't have to deal with problems. I consider dealing with the various windows problems as part of learning about computers, it gives me hands on experience in learning part of how the operating system does what it does.
Although, sometimes the problems can just be a real pain in the ass and make me want to kill bill gates.

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mad_sn00gans

And so it has been settled by mage....we must kill Bill Gates

who's coming with?

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Homey_V

1. I *built* My PC and I enjoy *building* my pc. Buying parts off a store shelf and slapping them into a pre-built system is UPGRADING, not building. I choose my tower, Motherboard, mobo, ram, expansion cards etc... and put everything together from scratch.

2. CHEAPER! I dont even need to explain this one.

3. Gaming. One again, no need to explain.

4. I despise the way MacOSX looks. It irritates me beyond belief and makes me want to kill small italians. No particular reason for that... It just does.

5. I also use Linux as well as Windows so Mac is out right there.

6. I cant stand the way Macs look. Like something from a Barbie doll... yeech.

As a side note. I'd like to point out that most people are assuming that PC means "Windows PC". I think thats wrong since the thread title isnt why you prefer windows, its why you dont like Macs. Regardless of the percentage of the market that linux shares, it still falls under the PC category and should not be dismissed as such.
If this minor rant made no sense, I apologize, Im heavily medicated and tired as hell. I'll edit it to make more sense later.

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hulk

I have a 3 button mouse with a scrollwheel. Right here.

My mac goes right to sleep with a touch of the power button. If I hold it down, it powers off.

There's a nice button, right here on my standard Apple keyboard, that ejects disks. Right next to the volume controls.


I'm starting to think this thread was a bad idea. In fact, I'm damn sure it was. Asking a question like this just invites hostile argument which has no place on the TFP.

__________________
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

docbungle

Dude, you call that "building?" I see a major difference in thought processes here. That is not building anything. That is paying a lot more cash for something because what you bought wasn't good enough. We can do that with pcs, too. It's called upgrading specific parts because they are outdated or not powerfull enough.

Try building a Mac from scratch. Oh, wait; you can't. That means if you want the best you have to blow $2,000.00 or more on a G5. And then you still have to get a better video card, if you're me. So what's the point? There is none. You like your Mac...that's great....go enjoy it and stop assuming we don't know what we're talking about. Different strokes man, deal with it.

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mad_sn00gans

Agreed.....

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The name's Sanchez....Dirty Sanchez

Willravel

Why can't you build a Mac? All the parts are available for individual sale and can be put into a standard tower. You can buy a Mac motherboard and a PC motherboard together in one tower if you want. One of my friends did that and he actually got it working. People rarely build Macs, that is most certianlly true. It can be done. Just the same as you can build anything else. It takes the right expert experience and knowledge.

Some people on here know what they are talking about. Bendsley corrected a mistake I made at the end of page 1. I was being sloppy and put PC when I meant Windows. It happenes that a lot of people don't know what they are talking about. They assume that because they know Windows and PCs backwards and forwards, they know Mac. They are different animals. They have some similarities, but they also have some big differences. Not knowing that a multi button mouse works on a Mac is a perfect example. Several people thought that one button was it. This is a basic mistake and usually signifies a true lack of familiarity with Mac. The thread asked why people hate Mac. People said because of the mouse. This isn't fair. That's like me saying I hate Hondas because they don't have a carbon fiber shift knob and you can't add one on later. You can get one on there, and it can go on so easily that it souldn't be a factor. These are the myths that nee addressing. I can appreciate brand prefrence, but not knowing the other brand and bashing it with things that aren't true is much different.

My interpritation of this thread is that brandon, like myself, is sick of Windows people bashing Macs for no reason. I have never bashed Windows, or a person who uses Windows. It's silly to me. I hear things like "Mac's don't have any games" and things of that sort on a weekly basis from someone who really knows about PCs. I don't know where this bad information is coming from, but it's not from experience.

All back and fourth aside, there has to be a bottom line to all of this. My bottom line (i.e. my last post on this thread) is that I love Macs. If I were given a choice between a Mac and a PC, I would choose a Mac. If you were to choose a PC from that selection, that's all well and fine with me. Both have their goods and bads. Don't pester me for my decision, though. Leave me to my decision, as I have left you to yours. It is simply a matter of what you want in a computer. It is not about telling other people how their choice sucks. I don't want to hear about building a computer instead of buying it whole. I don't want to hear about Halo not being available for Mac yet. I know what my computer is capable of and what it's not capable of. It is the people who constantly have a snide little remark to say whenever they hear the word 'Mac' on the wind that ruins the whole thing. CUT IT OUT! In my experience, the people who know the most about computers say to each their own and leave it at that.

Flyguy

When it's cheaper to buy at the store than pay for shipping smart guy.