ATI and NVIDIA: "PCI Express Cometh!" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Lasereth · 02-17-2004, 10:59 AM

NVIDIA and ATI announced PCI Express videocards this week. Tech Report and Anandtech have a good bit of information on them. From Tech Report:

Quote:

NVIDIA announces PCI Express product line
by Scott Wasson - 09:47 am, February 17, 2004

NVIDIA has decided to jump into the PCI Express game right away with a series of products based on its current GPUs plus an AGP-to-PCI bridge chip. NVIDIA's custom-developed AGP-to-PCI bridge will sit between the GPU and the PCI Express bus, translating the GPU's AGP talk into PCI-E language. According to NVIDIA, the GeForce PCX product line based on this arrangement will look like so:

NVIDIA GeForce PCX 5950- based on the award-winning GeForce architecture, this new GPU delivers extreme graphics power and performance for extreme gamers.

NVIDIA GeForce PCX 5750 - designed for high-performance gaming with NVIDIA's full suite of cinematic effects and an unmatched feature set.

NVIDIA GeForce PCX 5300 -delivers state-of-the-art, best-in-class features and the reliability users have come to expect from NVIDIA, at an affordable price.

NVIDIA GeForce PCX 4300 - provides entry-level pricing coupled with strong performance, unbeatable visual quality, and DVD playback.

Since these products are based on existing GPUs, sorting out what's what shouldn't be too hard. The GeForce PCX 5300, for instance, is based on the GeForce FX 5200. In some cases, core and memory clock speeds have been tweaked a little bit, just to give the new products a little more juice, as happened during the transition to AGP 8X. The tricky one is GeForce PCX 4300, which is actually based on a GPU called the GeForce MX 4000, which seems to be a rebadged GeForce4 MX.
You can see an image of the GeForce FX 5300, with its PCI Express interface, here.

NVIDIA has pledged to ship its PCI Express solutions "in lock-step with Intel," and claims to have shipped "more than 1000 PCI Express boards to customers and partners." I expect that means we'll see some GeForce PCX performance numbers somewhere on the web today; we'll keep our eyes peeled for them. Don't expect much in the way of performance gains over the AGP versions of these products, though; bridging to PCI-E alone isn't likely to achieve that.

Of course, the bridged approach to talking PCI Express is only a temporary, less-than-perfect measure. NVIDIA's NV40-series GPUs should come with native PCI Express interfaces built in. For now, though, NVIDIA has a family of PCI Express-compatible products ready to roll.

It looks like NVIDIA is gonna release an initial set of cards soon that bridge AGP and PCI together, converting them into a PCI-Express format. The new cards are basically PCI-E versions of the current GeForce FX series. The GeForce PCX 4300 is actually a revamped GeForce 4 MX series. As of now, there isn't really any new cards, just old cards converted to PCI-E. I suppose there will be some performance increases with the PCI-E, but no benchmarks have been posted yet. The later high-end cards are fully PCI-E, not just the AGP-PCI bridge converter.

A videocard debate wouldn't be complete without ATI! Anandtech reports:

Quote:

PCI Express

ATI's entire roadmap revolves around the transition to PCI Express, which ATI is particularly happy with since they will be providing native PCI Express GPUs from the get-go. The difference between a native PCI Express GPU and a "bridge" solution is that the latter has a little translator that takes PCI Express interface commands and converts them to AGP interface commands which are then sent off to the GPU. Obviously a bridge solution isn't very elegant and it isn't desirable from any standpoint other than a time-to-market one as it's always quicker and easier to have one GPU that can talk to any interface. Eventually no GPUs will have this silly PCI Express bridge, but at the start ATI is happy to announce that all of their GPUs will be "bridge-free."

In order to accomplish a bridge-free roadmap, ATI has to have two versions of every GPU: a PCIe and an AGP version (or an AGP substitute). Keep this in mind as we look at the GPUs due out in '04 since you'll be seeing two per market segment, one AGP and one PCIe.

It's also worth noting that all of ATI's GPUs will be available in both PCIe and AGP flavors throughout 2004.

ATI's new videocards will NOT feature the PCI-AGP Bridge converter. Supposedly, the bridge creates a slight disadvantage from true PCI-E cards, so this is definitely a plus. ATI also says that every videocard they release this year will come in AGP and PCI-E format so everyone will be able to use them. NVIDIA has simply said that they'll release the bridged PCI-E cards that works on all AGP mobos and true PCI-E's. Neither company really has an advantage here, but it's nice to see that both companies are keeping all consumers in mind.

More detailed information on the different ATI cards can be found on Anandtech's main page. ATI's cards are almost completely redesigned from the 9800, 9600, and 9000 series. The R420 and R423 are high-end cards that outperform the Radeon 9800 XT. They'll be very expensive, of course. Next comes the RV380 which is along the lines of a 9600XT. The new ATI low-end card is the RV370 which is basically a Radeon 9000 revamped. All of the new ATI cards WILL be in AGP format, so this isn't just for PCI-E motherboards...ATI is releasing a complete new set of videocards in the low, mid, and high end budget.

This is a ton of news for gamers, especially considering the videocard market is gonna get even more saturated with different kinds of cards. Now there's gonna be a PCI-E and AGP version of every ATI card released this year.

Oh well, it's still good news. Better videocards means the current ones will go down in price, and that's a plus for gamers everywhere.

-Lasereth

Redjake · 02-17-2004, 12:12 PM

And everyone was saying PCI-Express was "at least 3 years off."

I knew it! Right around the corner.....

bltzkriegmcanon · 02-17-2004, 12:34 PM

well, ain't that just a shitter. Oh well, guess I won't be investing in another video card anytime soon, at least until this shit settles out.

propaganda · 02-17-2004, 01:01 PM

Heh
Thats pretty awsome. The fact that ATI won't totally go with PCI-E. I'm still holding out for the AGP 16x...

Destrox · 02-17-2004, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by propaganda
Heh
Thats pretty awsome. The fact that ATI won't totally go with PCI-E. I'm still holding out for the AGP 16x...

Huh?

ATI is the one with TRUE PCIe, Nvidia is using the cheater method that for the most part ruins the whole point to PCIe.

ATI has the upper hand.

Lasereth · 02-17-2004, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by propaganda
Heh
Thats pretty awsome. The fact that ATI won't totally go with PCI-E. I'm still holding out for the AGP 16x...

Oh, they're totally going for it, even more than NVIDIA. They're making fully PCI-E cards, but they're just making a second AGP set as well. I see it as keeping the consumers in mind, not holding out on the new technology. I don't think they'd have made these cards at all if they weren't planning on going full-steam ahead into PCI-E!

-Lasereth

Lasereth · 02-17-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Destrox
Huh?

ATI is the one with TRUE PCIe, Nvidia is using the cheater method that for the most part ruins the whole point to PCIe.

ATI has the upper hand.

It's not cheaper to use the bridge method with PCI-E. It simply makes regular motherboards without PCI-E slots capable of working with a PCI-E videocard. It lets those that don't want to buy a new motherboard use PCI-E videocards. That's not ruining the whole point of PCI-E...there's not even confirmation that the bridge will slow anything down. ATI is simply making AGP and PCI-E instead of PCI-E Bridged cards.

ATI does not have the upperhand. This results in those people wanting an ATI PCI-E card having to buy a new motherboard.

Both companies are providing solutions to current motherboards and PCI-E motherboards...I think they both deserve a high five.

-Lasereth

Silverbrain · 02-17-2004, 01:30 PM

I am very curious to see some benchmarks of this. As of yet every new chipset to come out from ATI or Nvidia continues to up the fps on the 8x AGP bus, meaning they havent completely saturated the AGP bus slot....yet....right?

If that is the case what other card will really benefit from pci-x? modem =P

server nic cards, server scsi/raid, etc in the server arena.

Home users the only thing I can think of would be a faster Firewire card, and video down the road.

Thoughts?

propaganda · 02-17-2004, 01:43 PM

Havn't thought about that one Silverbrain but that would be a pretty awsome idea.

bltzkriegmcanon · 02-17-2004, 01:59 PM

I guess PCI Express is the way to go to get above 10000 on 3dMark 2003 without mega-OC'ing your setup.

oberon · 02-17-2004, 02:11 PM

Bandwidth isn't the only advantage of PCI Express. PCI-E will also provide hot swapping, at the hardware level. It also has the potential to lower motherboard design costs, heat issues, etc.

Not to mention that PCI-E may potentially allow for servers using multiple Infiniband 4X cards without too much trouble. That's more than 10Gbps.

Just because it ain't a problem now doesn't mean it won't be.

ChrisJericho · 02-17-2004, 02:31 PM

Interesting... but my 9800 Pro should last at least another year.

MahlerIsGod · 02-17-2004, 04:03 PM

How do I know if my motherboard can support a PCI-E card? I have a Dell 8300 but I have no idea what mobo I have. How can I tell? Thanks

VF19 · 02-17-2004, 04:28 PM

What about AGP 16X?

But this PCI-E would be pretty cool for mATX boards, where you could put the card on the bottom of the board so it doesnt take up all your other PCI slots.

Lasereth · 02-17-2004, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisJericho
Interesting... but my 9800 Pro should last at least another year.

I'd say you have at least two years left with a 9800 Pro. People tend to underwhelm newer videocards big time. My GeForce 4 TI4200 is still running every game I throw at it at a playable rate.

-Lasereth

Lasereth · 02-17-2004, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MahlerIsGod
How do I know if my motherboard can support a PCI-E card? I have a Dell 8300 but I have no idea what mobo I have. How can I tell? Thanks

PCI-E is very, very new, and I'm not sure any motherboards come equipped with it right now. Don't worry, though -- PCI-E won't be a necessary aspect of computing for a good while, especially with ATI and NVIDIA releasing AGP and PCI-E bridged cards throughout the year.

-Lasereth

heyal256 · 02-17-2004, 04:46 PM

If I am not mistaken, PCI-E will require a different motherboard because the slot is suppossed to replace the AGP slot on newer motherboards... then again we wont see these cards available until the motherboards that will support them are ready for market. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

Lasereth · 02-17-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by heyal256
If I am not mistaken, PCI-E will require a different motherboard because the slot is suppossed to replace the AGP slot on newer motherboards... then again we wont see these cards available until the motherboards that will support them are ready for market. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

You're right, but I've seen speculation of newer motherboards coming with 8X AGP *and* PCI-E. PCI-E is gonna be used for everything that regular PCI slots are used for now, so the possibilities are endless.

-Lasereth

soccerchamp76 · 02-17-2004, 05:26 PM

Any idea on the time table for the switch. I have to build a computer for college (August) so all this new stuff (PCIe) and 64-bit processors needs to come out faster to lower the prices and be ready by August.....COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Destrox · 02-17-2004, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lasereth
It's not cheaper to use the bridge method with PCI-E. It simply makes regular motherboards without PCI-E slots capable of working with a PCI-E videocard. It lets those that don't want to buy a new motherboard use PCI-E videocards. That's not ruining the whole point of PCI-E...there's not even confirmation that the bridge will slow anything down. ATI is simply making AGP and PCI-E instead of PCI-E Bridged cards.

ATI does not have the upperhand. This results in those people wanting an ATI PCI-E card having to buy a new motherboard.

Both companies are providing solutions to current motherboards and PCI-E motherboards...I think they both deserve a high five.

-Lasereth

I said cheater, not cheaper.
It wasnt a typo.

Either way, I prefer the idea of building cards for what thier made to run on, not using alternate hardware to make them work.

I'd buy either one tho, both will kick ass.

teflonian · 02-17-2004, 08:24 PM

I'm with soccerchamp76... Faster! I am waiting for the dust to settle on these new technologies before I make the next updgrade... I know, I know... There is usually no use for waiting around in the computer world, but I think waiting to buy a new motherboard, videocard, processor, and memory in the near future is a wise idea. Any one care to disagree and tell me why I am foolish for waiting three or four months? I really would be interested in people's arguments for or against upgrading now as I am trying to convince myself to upgrade sooner rather than later, but so far the later logical part of my brain is winning.

Lasereth · 02-17-2004, 08:37 PM

Sorry Destrox, I misread (obviously). I understand what you're saying, and it seems that ATI agrees 100%. I don't know what to think until they've proven that the bridged PCI-E has a lower performance, though!

-Lasereth

ChrisJericho · 02-17-2004, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lasereth
I'd say you have at least two years left with a 9800 Pro. People tend to underwhelm newer videocards big time. My GeForce 4 TI4200 is still running every game I throw at it at a playable rate.

-Lasereth

Lasereth I am a modder....... I tend to replace things BEFORE I absolutely I have to.

Destrox · 02-18-2004, 05:01 AM

I'd say this is the first year that I have not replaced hardware before it actually needed to be.

I was one of the types who'd buy a new video card every year, just now my GF4-Ti-4600 does so well I'm not sure I can actually weigh out the cash vs benifits.

That or I'm getting cheap.

02-17-2004, 12:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	And everyone was saying PCI-Express was "at least 3 years off." I knew it! Right around the corner..... __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

02-17-2004, 12:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
bltzkriegmcanon Holy Knight of The Alliance Location: Stormwind, The Eastern Kingdoms, Azeroth	well, ain't that just a shitter. Oh well, guess I won't be investing in another video card anytime soon, at least until this shit settles out. __________________ What do you say to one last showdown? - Ocelot, Metal Gear Solid 3 The password is "Who are the Patriots?" and "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo." "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo." Gotcha. - The Colonel and Snake, Metal Gear Solid 3

02-17-2004, 01:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Silverbrain Addict Location: Nor Cal	I am very curious to see some benchmarks of this. As of yet every new chipset to come out from ATI or Nvidia continues to up the fps on the 8x AGP bus, meaning they havent completely saturated the AGP bus slot....yet....right? If that is the case what other card will really benefit from pci-x? modem =P server nic cards, server scsi/raid, etc in the server arena. Home users the only thing I can think of would be a faster Firewire card, and video down the road. Thoughts? __________________ Over Thinking, Over Analyzing Seperates the Body from the Mind - MJK

02-17-2004, 01:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
bltzkriegmcanon Holy Knight of The Alliance Location: Stormwind, The Eastern Kingdoms, Azeroth	I guess PCI Express is the way to go to get above 10000 on 3dMark 2003 without mega-OC'ing your setup. __________________ What do you say to one last showdown? - Ocelot, Metal Gear Solid 3 The password is "Who are the Patriots?" and "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo." "La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo." Gotcha. - The Colonel and Snake, Metal Gear Solid 3

02-17-2004, 02:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
oberon Quadrature Amplitude Modulator Location: Denver	Bandwidth isn't the only advantage of PCI Express. PCI-E will also provide hot swapping, at the hardware level. It also has the potential to lower motherboard design costs, heat issues, etc. Not to mention that PCI-E may potentially allow for servers using multiple Infiniband 4X cards without too much trouble. That's more than 10Gbps. Just because it ain't a problem now doesn't mean it won't be. __________________ "There are finer fish in the sea than have ever been caught." -- Irish proverb

02-17-2004, 01:01 PM	#4 (permalink)
propaganda Psycho	Heh Thats pretty awsome. The fact that ATI won't totally go with PCI-E. I'm still holding out for the AGP 16x...

02-17-2004, 01:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
propaganda Psycho	Havn't thought about that one Silverbrain but that would be a pretty awsome idea.

02-17-2004, 02:31 PM	#12 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Interesting... but my 9800 Pro should last at least another year. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

02-17-2004, 04:03 PM	#13 (permalink)
MahlerIsGod At The Globe Showing Will How Its Done Location: London/Elysium	How do I know if my motherboard can support a PCI-E card? I have a Dell 8300 but I have no idea what mobo I have. How can I tell? Thanks __________________ "But a work of art is a conscious human effort that has to do with communication. It is that or its nothing. When an accident is applauded as a work of art, when a cult grows up around the deliciousness of inadvertent beauty, we are in the presence of the greatest decadence the West has known in its history."

02-17-2004, 04:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
VF19 Banned Location: back to my old location	What about AGP 16X? But this PCI-E would be pretty cool for mATX boards, where you could put the card on the bottom of the board so it doesnt take up all your other PCI slots.

02-17-2004, 04:46 PM	#17 (permalink)
heyal256 Not so great lurker Location: NY	If I am not mistaken, PCI-E will require a different motherboard because the slot is suppossed to replace the AGP slot on newer motherboards... then again we wont see these cards available until the motherboards that will support them are ready for market. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

02-17-2004, 05:26 PM	#19 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	Any idea on the time table for the switch. I have to build a computer for college (August) so all this new stuff (PCIe) and 64-bit processors needs to come out faster to lower the prices and be ready by August.....COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

02-17-2004, 08:24 PM	#21 (permalink)
teflonian Appreciative Location: Paradise	I'm with soccerchamp76... Faster! I am waiting for the dust to settle on these new technologies before I make the next updgrade... I know, I know... There is usually no use for waiting around in the computer world, but I think waiting to buy a new motherboard, videocard, processor, and memory in the near future is a wise idea. Any one care to disagree and tell me why I am foolish for waiting three or four months? I really would be interested in people's arguments for or against upgrading now as I am trying to convince myself to upgrade sooner rather than later, but so far the later logical part of my brain is winning.

02-17-2004, 08:37 PM	#22 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	Sorry Destrox, I misread (obviously). I understand what you're saying, and it seems that ATI agrees 100%. I don't know what to think until they've proven that the bridged PCI-E has a lower performance, though! -Lasereth __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

02-18-2004, 05:01 AM	#24 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	I'd say this is the first year that I have not replaced hardware before it actually needed to be. I was one of the types who'd buy a new video card every year, just now my GF4-Ti-4600 does so well I'm not sure I can actually weigh out the cash vs benifits. That or I'm getting cheap. __________________ You bore me.... next.