Frosstbyte

Instead of continuously bumping the old thread in which we were discussing building gaming computers what had, in large part, diverged off into how to spec pre-fab computers and get good deals, I decided that I should just make my own new thread which I could tailor a bit more specifically the questions and issues I have as I embark on this little project.

I have a friend who is going to help me once the pieces start arriving, but I need to come up with a list of parts to stick in the thing. As background, my primary computer gaming activity is WoW. I dabble around in other things now and again, but usually if I want a non-WoW game I'm playing on my Wii, so the rig I put together does not need to (and for budgetary reasons cannot) be the latest, greatest most blistering fast Crysis face melter ever created. I'm mostly trying to upgrade from my limping, pathetic laptop into something more stable and faster so I can enjoy the WoW expansion at something above 15 fps (<10 in raids).

My budget is about $1000. I need to purchase a monitor along with the computer since I previously used a laptop, and will probably also need to purchase an operating system, so include those in your calculations. I'd like for this to be a flexible, expandable machine so that as I get more liquid assets I can improve on it.

At this point, I'd mostly like some input on about how much I should allocate to each piece of the machine and any brand recommendations people have. I've done some rough calculations and am becoming very very intimate with newegg, but it's a bit hard for me to sort through the zillions of options up there, so some guidance would be much appreciated.

Thanks ahead of time.

Byrnison

I built my new PC last month...unfortunately, it *is* a "Crysis face melter" (great line BTW )and would not fit into the budget you mentioned. What I can say is that, if you intend to network this computer to another at your place, I would recommend as an OS getting Vista Business or Ultimate instead of the Home Premium version. If this is to be your only computer, then Home Premium would be ok.

Despite the online critcisms against it, I find that I really like Vista. While I wish I had gotten Ultimate now (I opted for Premium), it's not really a showstopper in connecting to the wife's computer, but I just wish I had some of the tools that it has. It was also quite simply the easiest OS installation I've done.

As for the hardware, as always get the best Quad CPU you can afford, and maximize your RAM (4GB if a 32bit OS, as much as you can if 64bit). Almost all motherboards have a PCIE slot so you can upgrade your video card in the future. Oh, and like you, Newegg was my only supplier!

Just my $.02, report back and let us know what you wind up going with!

DonnieBoy

I too was thinking of building my own computer the dell i own now is 6 years old! I picked up a copy of maximum pc and it had a article on how to build a nice setup for $1500 here. I think PC gamer had one too for about $1200 here is the Maximum PC article.

Build Your Own No-Compromises $1,500 PC | Maximum PC

I realize its a bit out of your price range but its a start and the prices might have dropped a little too.

Vigilante

With your budget and requirements, I'm going to say a P35 based system would me more than enough. It's tried and true, stable, mature, and a great performer. It's not a dead platform either. Bear in mind staying in that budget has not been the easiest LOL.

Motherboard: Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards $85
CPU: Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops $170
Memory: Newegg.com - G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory $105
Power Supply: Newegg.com - PC Power & Cooling S61EPS 610W Continuous @ 40°C EPS12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Power Supplies $110
Video Card: Newegg.com - EVGA 512-P3-N971-TR GeForce 9800 GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards $125 (has 20 dollar rebate as well)
DVD Burner: Newegg.com - SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 22X DVD-R 16X DVD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe - CD / DVD Burners $26

Hard drive is tough. If you can eek it into the budget and want speed, I highly recommend this one:
FAST!: Newegg.com - Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000GLFS 300GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - Internal Hard Drives $280
Otherwise: Newegg.com - Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3500320AS 500GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - Internal Hard Drives $75

Case: Newegg.com - Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Computer Cases $110
Monitor: Newegg.com - Acer X223Wbd Black 22" 5ms Widescreen LCD Monitor 300 cd/m2 2500:1 - LCD Monitors $180

I leave keyboard and mouse up to you.

I got you everything I would buy as an IT professional, an avid gamer, a true DIYer and as a person that knows how to buy for a task rather than what I think is cool.

750GB Seagate drive choice (I use this drive, a personal fav for storage and it isn't slow ): $960 before shipping, keyboard and mouse.
300GB raptor (fun drive, if you want to load games/apps/maps super fast): $1165
Like I said, if you can eek it into the budget, it's really fast.

I am not a loyalist, I just buy what is stable and fast.
-That said, the motherboard is a good pick. Stable and not prone to some of the bugs the more popular ASUS boards seem to have.
-The CPU is a given. Fast, dual core, and can be overclocked very easily, if you ever wanted to tweak the machine some. Even if not, believe me you won't be lacking for speed
-The memory is a good brand and the max for 32bit OSes. You will see less than 4GB, but this gives you all the room you can have, plus more if you ever want to try a 64bit OS. On a related note, I use 2GB on vista business 32 bit, and it works just fine unless I load Crysis.
-The PSU is one of the best brands in the business, if not the best. It will run your machine with one card forever
-I chose eVGA for the warranty and that model for the exceptional 2nd-slot cooling.
-DVD burner...meh. Whichever. Lite-On has given me a few problems, but I know samsung is a good brand in most hard drives, so why not.
-Drives are up to you. I prefer fast load times for gaming rigs and capacity for my server. I use a raptor (old gen) in my game rig and a 750GB seagate in my fileserver as secondary backup for the RAID array.
-The case is a tweaker's case, but I chose it because it can be made very quiet yet very cool. I am a big freak about heat on components, so that case for me is a no-brainer.
-The monitor seems like a good one (have read some good stuff about acer panels lately) and it's at a great price.

Of course you can change anything you like, but I can guarantee you this machine will NOT disappoint!
-----Added 6/10/2008 at 10 : 50 : 33-----
Vista Business I agree with, but home premium works fine too. I have both on my internal subnet and they see other machines fine and business works on my 2003/AD domain fine.

Quad is overkill unless you plan on serious multitasking. I do serious multitasking so I have a Q6600 running at 3.6GHz on watercooling. I love it, this CPU will last me a long time. But for the average gamer and user, a dual-core will work just fine and not limit anything. Also, very few programs that you see on the market are written for quads.

Unless you do professional image editing etc, you won't need more than 4GB of ram, 64 bit or not.

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Frosstbyte

For an extra $20 you don't think this intel quad is worth it: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115017

This is why I asked. I have no idea if quad 2.4 with 4 MB cache is better or worse than duo 3.0 with 6 MB cache, nor do I know very well what the difference is.

Vigilante

Honestly I didn't look at the quads because I was trying to stay within budget at all costs. For 20 bucks, if you like it go for it, absolutely!

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Frosstbyte

PM'd this to lucifer but thought I'd throw it to the board at large, too.

Here's what I'd put together before you posted. I wasn't expecting feedback quite as specific as you gave. We arrived conveniently at some of the same things and diverged significantly on others. I really know nothing about PSU or mobos, so I didn't have choices for that yet.

Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119129
Optical: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827151171
HDD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822148262 I've never had specific space problems, so I skimped here a little.
GPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130380

I already indicated my CPU selection, and I'm pretty positive that your GPU and monitor selections, so I'll be switching to those.

Any other thoughts? Would you leave the mobo and psu as you originally indicated?

Lasereth

This is going to be totally unorganized because I'm doing it at work so sorry in advance!

The Wolfdale 3.0 GHz will run most games better than that 2.4 GHz quad. Maybe even ALL games better. Don't underestimate high end Core 2 Duos. If it was me I would be buying the 3.0 GHz Wolfdale.

I think the power supply mentioned is overkill. More than overkill actually...if you're not gonna OC, a quality 300w PSU will run any system (sans SLI). No reason to spend $100+ on a PSU for a standard system like yours. This is what I would get: Newegg.com - PC Power & Cooling Silencer PPCS370X 370W ATX12V 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Power Supplies PC Power and Cooling 370w

The memory can be bought cheaper as well. Newegg.com - CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory Corsair XMS 4 GB $70 before $25 mail in rebate, dirt cheap, high quality

The the money you saved there you could either keep it or upgrade the videocard to a Radeon HD 4850 which will run circles around the 9800 GT (though the 9800 GT is an excellent choice for the price and will blow the doors off of WoW). Newegg.com - SAPPHIRE 100245L Radeon HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards $160 not counting the $20 mail in rebate

I agree with the CPU, motherboard, and DVD drive Luciferase picked out.

As for cases this is what I have and it's a dream come true: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811112099 Lian-Li, widely recognized as one of the best case manufacturers in the industry, $99

HDD: If you can afford it, go for a VelociRaptor HDD like Luciferase suggested, maybe a cheaper one: Newegg.com - Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (bare drive) - Internal Hard Drives Or just get a freakin massive one for half the price. I have a Raptor in my PC and I'm not sure I can tell a huge difference but it has been a while since I played PC games without a Raptor.

Keep asking questions if you're confused and don't buy on impulse because not everything is as it seems in the PC industry.

Vigilante

I agree with Las that I chose an overkill PSU, but I did that to future-proof it. PSUs are the one area where overkill is almost always desired, and for those that wish to upgrade later, required if you want to keep the unit.

I have the same Lian Li case for my main rig as well, but I didn't choose it for this because it is air restrictive. Again, I own the case right now, and it is not good for airflow. It's good for slow flow, but I don't like slow flow. I had to create ducting to cool my PWMs for my overclock. Not that his PWMs would be cooking like mine (dual core and no overclock, they will be fine) but I still like to get the heat out of the case ASAP.

I chose the memory because the motherboard can take higher than 800 (1066) at stock speeds. I chose the brand because they are one of the best budget, yet not budget, brands out. It is more expensive though, and that is a good call there if he doesn't mind the slight drop in performance.

Edit: here is my system, with the case in question.
Finished


Inside


Radiator placement:



I had to use the mesh bay covers to allow more flow. The design is older, not so good for flow, but I chose the case because it fits my radiator perfectly.

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Frosstbyte

My priority right now is getting a rig together that's going to run laps around my old computer and let me play games like I want to play them instead of limping along because I love to play and don't have any other option. RAM is a very easy and relatively inexpensive upgrade, so I'd rather drop the extra cash on something a little more permanent (PSU, CPU, GPU) and then put faster RAM on my short term upgrade schedule.

Vigilante

Then as Las said, I would go for the 3.0GHz wolfdale over the quad

Oh and stick with the PSU I mentioned if you want a more permanent solution.

edit: I just realized your sig. Took a while, but then it hit me - The thing that should not be

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Frosstbyte

The signature shouldn't have been *that* obscure given my title, avatar and location.

Lasereth

BTW Luciferase you gotta get that beige drive out of there!!!!!!!!

Vigilante

I didn't even look at those, Fross :P. I looked at the sig, heard the lyrics in my head, and said ooooh, damn been looking at it for 2 days and now I get it. It was never a foreground thought but rather at the back of my mind, even when the song finally hit me.

Yeah Las I know I know, the beige drive is ugly, I agree. Everyone says that, but I haven't had a need to get a new one yet so I haven't bothered. I need to get knobs for the rheostats too, but I'm being lazy since I'm the only one that looks at it LOL

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-Winston Churchill

Frosstbyte

What are you guys feelings about using aftermarket heatsink/fans on the CPU at this phase? I've been told that getting a Zalman cooler like this: Newegg.com - ZALMAN 9500A 92mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler - CPU Fans & Heatsinks makes a big difference.

Is that something to worry about later on if I decide to go the overclocking route and otherwise the heatsink that comes with the CPU should be sufficient?

Lasereth

I would use the default heatsink that comes with it but CPU coolers DEFINITELY have a major impact on your system if you buy a good one. But the default one is designed to cool your system sufficiently if you don't OC.

Vigilante

Agreed. The stocker is fine for stock speeds, even at 100% load. As you thought, the aftermarket ones come into play if you decide to overclock. Really though, air-cooled overclocking is a joke IMO. I hate loud blasting or screaming fans. That's why I watercool, because I like my machines to hum, not scream

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Frosstbyte

I noticed we haven't mentioned sound cards at all. Am I basically ok with onboard sound until I have $100 or whatever to spend on a card? Any inexpensive ones that'd be worth picking up regardless?

Another very newb question from someone with a lot more experience in the av world than the building computer world:

Do I need to be buying cabling to put all this together or will the components come with the proper cables?

Vigilante

Yeah onboard should be fine. Honestly I haven't bought a soundcard in years.

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-Winston Churchill

Lasereth

I have a SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS and I can't tell a difference between it and onboard sound. The onboard will be fine.

The components will come with the cables you need.

Vigilante

Missed that part. You should have most everything you need when you buy the parts. Monitor has VGA/DVI cable, vid card has DVI->VGA adapter if needed, power cable comes with PSU, etc.

edit: and then I missed that lasereth said the same thing. Jeez I need to go wake up LOL

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xepherys

Couple of quick notes. Why are you going for the CoolerMaster case? It's actually kind of a pain to work with. if you like larger cases, the Antec Nine Hundred is far nicer. If you want something smaller, the Antec Solo is also great (it's what my computer is in right now)

I would also consider 4GB of RAM and a 64-bit OS. The 64-bit should be reasonable to pick up OEM, and I'll tell you what... it's one of the best upgrades I've ever made. Never had a gmae that didn't run, never had a device I couldn't get a driver for... it's fantastic!

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Frosstbyte

I guess that's a good question, now that you mention it, xeph. What the fuck version of Vista should I be trying to buy off newegg? I was expecting the 6 or so versions that MS has on its website, and there are about a zillion, many of which say OEM at the end and include some sort of disclaimer. Are those full versions? Can I buy that and use it? Or do I need to buy the $250 version from MS iteself? I thought the OS (once I picked the level-Home Premium) was going to be the easy part. Way to go MS!

Also, I was going for the CoolerMaster because of its clean aesthetic and price. The Antec that lucifer linked is a bit flashy for my tastes and a bit more than what I was looking to spend. I like the look of the Lian Li, but again, kind of more than I wanted to drop. I'll go check out the Solo, though. Edit: The Solo worries me because I can't see a lot of side or front venting and there is only the back fan. I'm definitely looking for at least a 2 fan system. You don't have any heat problems?

I was looking at this CoolerMaster, too: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119068 which lucifer indicated he'd gotten for his wife and she liked and someone else on another forum told me the Centurion 5 was solid.

Were the CoolerMaster problems you were having specific to that case in particular or to the brand?

Vigilante

OEM vista, from what I understand, is for one computer only. Once you upgrade, the license goes with the old hardware. It won't activate again.

Full blown vista can go across platforms.

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Frosstbyte

So I can get this: Newegg.com - Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 64-bit English for System Builders 1pk DSP OEI DVD - Operating Systems and as long as I don't care about moving it to another computer, I've saved myself $100?

Vigilante

Well, yes. It's not what I would recommend, but yes. You're not in college and don't have a friend in college? Almost any student now can get vista for either free or for 5 bucks, and it's the full blown version

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Frosstbyte

I'm 25, unfortunately and graduated from law school last year, but I suppose I could look into getting an education version.

BurntToast

Just wanted to add my 2 cents about the cables question. If you order anything OEM then MOST of the time it doesn't come with cables. My last build I bought my raptor and dvd drive OEM by accident and I was glad that I have tons of cables laying around that I can't bring myself to throw away.

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YaWhateva

Not to hijack this thread but how good is this monitor? I have been looking to get a 22" widescreen and this is a lot cheaper than the samsungs I have been looking at.

Also, how do you go about getting Vista for free/cheap for being a student?

Edit:
With that, your motherboard will come with all of those cables.

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Vigilante

Not sure on the quality because I don't own one, but from what I ran into on the web it seemed pretty decent. I saw it mentioned over at overclockers once or twice, but that's all I know on it.

For free OSes etc, there are 2 ways I am aware of. Either the school has a deal with microsoft already in place and you can purchase it through the school, or you can go to microsoft dreamspark and get it for free if your school is reg'd with them. That is how I did it. In fact I even got server 2008 standard for free recently

https://downloads.channel8.msdn.com/Default.aspx

edit: I'm not sure that there are desktop OSes in dreamspark, but I'll check and see.

Nope, no desktop OSes.

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xepherys

1) Students don't get Vista for free or for $5. Microsoft's "Ultimate Steal" program offers a Vista UPGRADE for $65 (link)

2) The solo gives me no heat problems with an 8800GT, an E8200 proc, and several hard disks (two of which are 10k rpm Raptors). Cooling is less about number of fans and more about air pathways in your case. 12-fan mega rigs are seriously overrated, and end up eating more fan power than they are worth. I love my Solo.

3) The Zalman cooler is plenty good enough. But really so is the stock cooler if you are not overclocking. *shrug*

4) For OS I recommend getting a 64-bit Vista Ultimate Upgrade. Worst case scenario, you can upgrade from the preview install from that disc. It's cheesy, but MS acknowledges it and has made NO moves to fix it, thus legitimizing it. Basically you install from the upgrade with no key (gives you a 30-day preview version) then you put the disc back in and "upgrade" that trial version with the key. Bam! Beautiful 64-bit Vista-age!

5) CoolerMaster issues are with the brand, but it's not that they are bad cases, it's just that you can generally get better for the price (like Lian Li... except Lian Li cases are beautiful!)

6) My recommendation for a display is the HP w2408h. Not sure if it fits your budget, but I recently did a LOT of research about LCD displays, chose this one and have never looked back.

7) OEM hardware will almost never come with cables, as mentioned above. Be sure to pick up some SATA cables and such for the drives you get. Newegg has them. If you forget about them when you order, and you are already going to be making a separate order, check www.monoprice.com.

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Frosstbyte

But any product from newegg which says (Retail) at the end should not be OEM and *should* have cables or should I buy a few eSATA and SATA just in case?

Also, can you PM me xeph about your OS suggestion. I just want to make sure I know what you're suggesting. Thanks.

Vigilante

You are incorrect, my friend. At Texas A&M OSes were available for $15 (last I checked, might be even cheaper now) and earlier this year at my local college I got vista business for FREE through the deal the college has with MS for students. XP, XP-64 and vista business were all options, among about 2 dozen other packages. I also downloaded server 2003 and 2008 standard for free even more recently by registering my windows live account in association with the college I was attending. That 2003 is on my file/AD server.

Your college may not offer it, but there are several deals colleges can set up with MS that include full retail software for free.

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xepherys

Alright, let me rephrase. Not all university students get Vista for free or for $5. However, all US university students are eligible for the Ultimate Steal program. Also, the program for server versions is a different program that, AFAIK, is geared specifically toward programming and engineering students. Not that, of course, you couldn't use it regardless of major.

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passthru

In case you haven't settled on a processor yet, don't get a quad. The primary function of the system will be gaming, and a quad won't give you anything applicable to gaming. As for memory, 2GB sticks are pretty cheap these days. Depending on the specifics of your final budget, 2GB may be the best option. Getting one 2GB module that is common will let you wait a few months, then you can easily find the same module and add another (or even 3). Don't start with more than a pair of 2GB sticks though.. I doubt more will help gaming performance.

For the hard drive, I'm against velociraptors. Those are basically the hard drive equivalent of dyed water in a water cooling setup, or speed tape on the brake lights of your car. If you really want speed, get a slightly more expensive motherboard with SAS on it then get a 147GB 15K SAS drive. Half as much space, yeah, but way the hell faster, more reliable, and cheaper too. - I can't remember/find the board I'm thinking of, but I saw one a few days ago that was around $200 that had SAS. Even the cheapest one on newegg ($270, plus $120 for the drive) will still be about the same cost as a non-SAS board plus the raptor.

If you want a few other complete systems for comparison, see arstechnica's system guides.

Frosstbyte

For a variety of reasons, this build got put on hold for a while, but now I'm ready to order, so I thought I'd post my part picks. Now I just need to find someone willing to help me put the damn thing together!

Optical- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136152
Case- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129021
HDD- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136319
Monitor- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824009145
GPU- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130400
PSU- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139005
RAM- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227289
MoBo- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128359
CPU- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115037

Any last minute suggestions before I take the plunge?

Sigh, newegg defies me. Why won't it post the name of the product as the link text...

Lasereth

I would get the Radeon HD 4870 instead of the GTX 260 Core 216. The 260 is a good card but the 4870 is superior, and most importantly, it's $70 cheaper.

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Frosstbyte

Yeah, it's not necessarily the optimized money/power choice for the slot, but I'm a bit of an nVidia brand loyalist. Is there an alternative nVidia that I'd be better off getting or if I do want to stick with it, have I made a good choice?

Lasereth

It is definitely a good card for the price, just not quite as good as the Radeon HD 4870. It is not a ripoff in any way. If you want to stick with nvidia then it is the card to go with at that price. I would get this one instead though: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150329

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Frosstbyte

Any particular reason, Las? They're the same price after rebate. XFX a better company?