Internet Domination, is this legal? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Shauk · 03-19-2008, 08:56 AM

http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/a...dely_felt.html

Quote:

The ongoing peering dispute between Cogent and Telia has left many networks in the U.S. and Europe unable to connect with one another. Renesys, which tracks Internet routing, has some additional details on the impact of the dispute, which it describes as an "Internet partition." Renesys says many networks are unable to simply route around the impasse, perhaps because one party (probably Cogent) is taking steps to block alternate traffic paths. Their analysis finds that 2,383 Telia network prefixes can't reach Cogent at all, while 1,573 Cogent prefixes are completely cut off from Telia. The impact is most widely felt in Europe, but more than 1,900 U.S. network segments are affected as well. Some additional detail:

What is surprising is that networks in the US are actually cut off from each another, since a largely US provider is playing hardball with a largely Swedish one. ... the list of impacted networks is too long to be included here, but they include a wide range of commercial, educational and government clients. On the Telia side, the victims include the Swedish Defense Data Agency, the Finnish State Computer Center, and broadband customers in St. Petersburg. With regard to Cogent, Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Delaware, Kansas State University and Reuters America were all collateral damage.

Renesys notes that Flag and SingTel recently discontinued peering, but are allowing customers to find one another via alternate routes. "For the Internet to be whole again, Cogent and Telia need to kiss and make up," Earl Zmijewski writes. "No one can force either one to carry traffic destined for the other. But my guess is that Telia is hearing more grief from Scandinavian customers not being able to reach US content than Cogent is hearing from US customers cut off from Northern Europe." Check out the Renesys blog for a table detailing the country-by-country impact.

I'm getting a few pissed off customers on the phone over this, at most all we can do is route them through a time-warner backbone instead but it's not guaranteed to work if Cogent is ACTIVELY seeking to block traffic that includes any route to anything under Telia

Martian · 03-19-2008, 11:15 AM

This is the net neutrality debate come to life. Should Cogent be allowed to do this? On the one hand, it's their servers and their networks; on the other hand, one could argue that people ought to have free access to information.

There are no laws to address this sort of thing yet. It's a big debate in the US and worldwide at the moment, but I suspect we're a few years off at least from any consistent rules being in place. Even if you guys do get some net neutrality laws in place, that only affects providers operating within the US; we'd just have to hope that other countries follow suit.

The internet broke nationality. Asking a question like 'is this legal?' on the internet means a whole lot less when half the people you're talking to live in another country and are subject to different laws.

Shauk · 03-19-2008, 11:34 AM

http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/03/...m_here_1.shtml

updated linkie ;p

Martian · 03-19-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/03/...m_here_1.shtml

updated linkie ;p

I found that through a link from the first article. Regardless, it's the same question and the same answer. Again, this is what net neutrality is all about; whether or not it's right for large companies to be able to 'own' large portions of the internet pathways and control what goes over it. It's a very big deal because if Cogent (or Singtel or Aliant or any of the mid-size or larger providers) start doing what Cogent is doing now it can have negative effects on everyone who passes traffic over their networks, which could hypothetically mean anyone at all.

Shauk · 03-19-2008, 01:38 PM

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...arrel-par.html

more fun, wired is in on this now.

i think if this became a popular tactic, it will drive prices up, and alienate customers and small ISP's

secondly, I wonder how many cogent customers (such as my employer/workplace/ISP) are going to find a different backbone based on principal alone. the internet doesn't sound very "internetty" when you have people partitioning off sections of it.

which is to say, how would you all feel if tfproject.org was hosted in finland? wouldn't you feel kinda fucked over and alienated because "mommy and daddy" can't just get along and maintain a pretty face for the children?

i love this comment btw.

But, but, but ...

The internet routes around all blockages. Things like this will never happen. Corporations and governments will never be able to control the internet. It must be true because all the internet geeks said so.

This story must be a lie.

Willravel · 03-19-2008, 01:46 PM

I hope MANY people abandon Cogent and show the market definitively that it won't tolerate totalitarian business practices like this.

Cynthetiq · 03-19-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...arrel-par.html

more fun, wired is in on this now.

i think if this became a popular tactic, it will drive prices up, and alienate customers and small ISP's

secondly, I wonder how many cogent customers (such as my employer/workplace/ISP) are going to find a different backbone based on principal alone. the internet doesn't sound very "internetty" when you have people partitioning off sections of it.

which is to say, how would you all feel if tfproject.org was hosted in finland? wouldn't you feel kinda fucked over and alienated because "mommy and daddy" can't just get along and maintain a pretty face for the children?

i love this comment btw.

But, but, but ...

The internet routes around all blockages. Things like this will never happen. Corporations and governments will never be able to control the internet. It must be true because all the internet geeks said so.

This story must be a lie.

actually TFP used to be hosted from Finland, it used to sit in Buddah's living room with a fast connection... we'd be looking at the blog again.

connyosis · 03-19-2008, 03:31 PM

Yeah this thing is pissing me off. Noticed a few days ago I could not access some of the sites I usually frequent (This forum being an exception). As far as I've understood the issue, Cogent says Telia is not following some agreement between the two regarding costs for upgrading the connection between them.
I remain skeptical, it's not the first time Cogent has been involved in something like this. Seems like a big company trying to bully a smaller one to me...

Props to Telia for not taking shit from them. It's still one big pain in the ass though...

03-19-2008, 11:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	This is the net neutrality debate come to life. Should Cogent be allowed to do this? On the one hand, it's their servers and their networks; on the other hand, one could argue that people ought to have free access to information. There are no laws to address this sort of thing yet. It's a big debate in the US and worldwide at the moment, but I suspect we're a few years off at least from any consistent rules being in place. Even if you guys do get some net neutrality laws in place, that only affects providers operating within the US; we'd just have to hope that other countries follow suit. The internet broke nationality. Asking a question like 'is this legal?' on the internet means a whole lot less when half the people you're talking to live in another country and are subject to different laws. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

03-19-2008, 01:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...arrel-par.html more fun, wired is in on this now. i think if this became a popular tactic, it will drive prices up, and alienate customers and small ISP's secondly, I wonder how many cogent customers (such as my employer/workplace/ISP) are going to find a different backbone based on principal alone. the internet doesn't sound very "internetty" when you have people partitioning off sections of it. which is to say, how would you all feel if tfproject.org was hosted in finland? wouldn't you feel kinda fucked over and alienated because "mommy and daddy" can't just get along and maintain a pretty face for the children? i love this comment btw. But, but, but ... The internet routes around all blockages. Things like this will never happen. Corporations and governments will never be able to control the internet. It must be true because all the internet geeks said so. This story must be a lie. Last edited by Shauk; 03-19-2008 at 01:42 PM..

03-19-2008, 03:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
connyosis Psycho Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned	Yeah this thing is pissing me off. Noticed a few days ago I could not access some of the sites I usually frequent (This forum being an exception). As far as I've understood the issue, Cogent says Telia is not following some agreement between the two regarding costs for upgrading the connection between them. I remain skeptical, it's not the first time Cogent has been involved in something like this. Seems like a big company trying to bully a smaller one to me... Props to Telia for not taking shit from them. It's still one big pain in the ass though... __________________ If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

03-19-2008, 11:34 AM	#3 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/03/...m_here_1.shtml updated linkie ;p

03-19-2008, 01:46 PM	#6 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I hope MANY people abandon Cogent and show the market definitively that it won't tolerate totalitarian business practices like this.