Bossnass

I've just been phoned and asked which format to purchase as a Christmas gift, as I am supposed to be the tech-savvy and knowledgeable member of the extended family. Honestly I don't really know.

I told her blu-ray, and I was under the impression that is has taken a pretty big lead over hd-dvd. I'm also under the impression that neither format is inherently superior, and I'm guessing that in the long run, one of the formats will prevail.

Was I wrong? A cursory google search seems to indicate that there are more blurays out there, but mostly due to the ps3. Have any tfpers bought HD generation players, and which did you choose?

Hain

Since Blockbuster endorsed Blu-ray, I would say that Blu-Ray is the way to go. As far as I know, neither is superior...

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Martian

Yeah, thus far Blu-Ray seems to be winning the format war. It is technically superior, although the triple layer HD-DVD discs will bridge the capacity gap between the two and aside from that, there's not really any significant difference in specs.

Go with Blu-Ray. Better yet, get a PS3. The price of a PS3 is cheaper than many stand-alone Blu-Ray players and you get games with it as well.

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Lasereth

Technically speaking, Blu-ray is superior. Take a look at wikipedia.

I'd say Blu-ray is winning the war right now, but the recent release of sub-$100 HD-DVD players is a crushing blow for Blu-ray on the consumer end. The fact that many online retailers sold Blu-ray players but not HD-DVD players for a long time is big. Also, the PS3 being Blu-ray is huge also...the PS2 helped make DVDs big and I think the PS3 will help make Blu-ray big.

I personally don't think either will ever be phased out. One might become much bigger over time but I can't see one just going away.

Right now the HD-DVD for under $100 deal is long gone so the prices are back up to the $200-$400 range for Blu-ray or HD-DVD. I'd personally go with Blu-ray based on the selection of titles I see in stores. The Playstation 3 is the best Blu-ray player on the market because it has a fucking next-gen gaming console built in with it.

Bossnass

This advice is sought for an aunt-in-law, purchasing for an uncle-in-law, near 50 years old. For me, the ps3 would be a no-brainer, for him, with his ultra-modern entertainment centre, I don't think the ps3 would fly. He has forbidden his sons from hooking up their game consoles to the new tv.

blu-ray it is. Thanks.

xepherys

. .

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MexicanOnABike

well... now i want to know what you wanted to post! haha!!

i'm too lazy to check right now... but is there the same formats for HD and blue ray like there is for standard dvds? NTSC or PAL etc...?

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xepherys

NTSC and PAL are the output formats. They vary based on region and I do believe that HD doesn't negate that. Perhaps HD monitors and TVs do not have a differentiation for regional decoding, but it's really not important.

They both put out 1080p. They both have lossless audio options. BD-DVD comes in 25/50/100GB varieties (theoretically). HD-DVD comes in 15/30/45GB (theoretically). As for the data space available on the disc for movie content, almost all current HD-DVDs are dual-layer, 30GB discs. All Blu-Ray discs, to my knowledge, are single-layer 25GB discs. Hence if you believe that the available data space is important (which really it's not), then HD-DVD wins.

Technologically speaking, they both have identical output offerings. The big benefit to HD-DVD is the extended (internet) options in movie, picture-in-picture offerings (commentary in a smaller picture while watching the movie) and industry backing (Microsoft may be a bitch, but they fight dirty and have more than enough money to through around, which shows itself in the HD format wars and the 360 vs. PS3 wars).

The studios that support HD-DVD are preferred by me, but that's personal taste. Honestly the only Blu-Ray-only studio that bums me out is Disney. Also, unless you rent a shit ton of movies, I don't understand why Blockbuster going BD-DVD instead of HD-DVD makes it somehow better. Rentals have slid for years now, due to downloadable content, piracy and on-demand cable are eating into that market quickly.

*shrug* in the end, I guess it's just a matter of opinion. What I had planned to post was a tech table detailing much of what I said here, but I'm having some HTML related issues. I'll see what I can come up with. It basically showed what I said... they are nearly the same, but one will still come to rule in the end (or neither, but certainly not both). I choose HD-DVD over BD-DVD any day of the week.

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LoganSnake

Speaking of disks and picture in picture, PS3 has gotten a firmware update with a 1.1 HDMI spec that allows Blu-Ray disks to support picture in picture as well as some other minor adjustments such as audio mixing (switching audio from the main screen to the PIP screen on the fly). That, and every Blu Ray player released after October 2007 also supports 1.1 spec. Don't forget that about 1/4 of Blu-Ray disks on the market are dual layered 50GB capacity.

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MexicanOnABike

ah ok.

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Jinn

I guess I'm the only person who would've endorsed HD-DVD.

Could be that I hate Sony and that I dislike the PS3, or it could be that Sony has lost every format war it's been in.

I had gotten the impression that HD-DVD was "winning" the format war based on what companies had agreed to distribute that way, but "winning" is hard to decide this early.

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xepherys

? I thought I've posted plenty saying that I support HD-DVD? Maybe I imagined it. And yes, I've also posted in other threads about Sony's inability to market a new media format. Ever!

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robot_parade

Yeah, I'm waiting until the powers that be just fracking decide. For now, DVD is fine.

MexicanOnABike

same here. I haven't bought a single DVD since the fight started last year. for me, it started when the ps3 came out. without it, theres really no war between HD/blueray. so when a definitive format will come out, especially on the computer data side, that's when I'll start buying my hardware.

I still haven't seen any writable hd/blueray discs in stores yet either.

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xepherys

Best Buy carries BD-R discs. They are about $20/ea, but that's typical. DVD-Rs were WAY pricey in the beginning and DVD-DL discs are still not cheap.

As for an end? I don't see one anytime soon, and I am too much a technophile to not jump in. 480p (even upconverted) doesn't do my 1080p set justice at all. Besides, worst case scenario... you pick the wrong one and buy a stand-alone dual-format player. There are plenty out there and the players prices are dropping 3-5 times a year.

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Cynthetiq

bah.. i just hate the idea that I have to repurchase all my DVDs which number in the 600+ all over again.

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jewels

So ...

What's the new technology after Blu-Ray becomes the standard?

xepherys

I'll just assume, jewels, that you mean what's the new technology after the HD standard is set (whichever it may be), to which the answer is who knows? The studios have a good reason to stay with an HD format for a while. many consumers will not be "replacing" their existing DVD collection. Most HD sales are for movies that people have not already owned. In fact, most HD-DVD and BD-DVD discs available are new movies and updates to very old movies.

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jewels

xepherys,

Nah. I was referring to the next great new technological advance that's being perfected as we speak. I suppose I'm being facetious, but I do wonder what'll be coming down the line.

It just seems that just when the masses can afford the technology, the new stuff comes along to render what you have completely useless.

I know, I know. Such is life.

Willravel

Jewls443: Probably something that looks like the classic zip disc. It will be a portable solid state hard drive.

LoganSnake

Actually, the way things are going, media will go toward downloadable material. Like MP3s, video distribution will be done through online channels. It will take a decade or more for that to become mainstream however. According to Microsoft, HD-DVD is just something they introduced to get even more consumers to their side because they want all video media to be distributed digitally.

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Willravel

This can only happen if there is large scale rebuilding of the internet infrastructure. It's already starting to run into problems because the usage is so high. Before too long we may start experiencing bandwidth traffic jams because of poor planning by those who have the hardware in place. It's because of this that a totally internet based movie and music industry would be very difficult.

Besides, once laptops switch over to solid state, the price of production will drop off considerably. Considering that 1) it can't be scratched, 2) it has MASSIVE storage capability, and 3) it's rewritable, it seems the best option currently on the horizon. BTW, if you're an investor, solid state seems a good place to be right now. If you don't hurry it will be too late. I moved some things over there about 5 months back and am already seeing the growth trend start.

jewels

I always thought the old radios and appliances manufactured prior to 1970 or so were Solid State; always thought it was some old fuse "thing". Never knew what it meant, so it would be greatly appreciated if someone could translate this into layman's terms.

Willravel

Martian

They were solid state. The term 'solid state' refers to a device built exclusively using transistors (hence the other name for those old radios, 'transistor radios'). Thus, the old radios and other electronics were solid state because they didn't use vacuum tubes, and a solid state drive is solid state because it does away with discs and platters and such. In both cases any moving parts are done away with, which leads to smaller and more reliable devices. The downside, particularly when it comes to storage media, is the cost; time will tell if Moore's law can ameliorate that sufficiently to make it a viable alternative to traditional magnetic and optical media. My bet would be yes.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Lasereth

I think within 10 years games and software will start coming on some form of portable flash media, sorta like a dispensable thumb drive. Optical media is fucking retarded and needs to be phased out. Once SSD technology gets cheap I think it will happen.

Willravel

HA! Mr. Videocard agrees with me.

I must be on to something.

Cynthetiq

I'm thinking that they will ditch the production of a physical product that needs to be "manufactured" all together and either use a giftcard to d/l direct to your devices or NAS.

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Willravel

Just out of curiosity, what do you think will be done to fix web traffic issues that we're heading into in order to make widespread movie downloading (at the same rate as rentals were 10 years ago) plausible?

Cynthetiq

One of the last MTV projects I worked on was direct delivery of video to itunes, google video, amazon, akamai and the rest. Akamai has great distribution points around the world and have been working on delievery subsystems just like this basing the future of direct downloads.

It was a simply delivery system, very fast technology but still using public internet infrastructure with secure tunnels. This was direct point to point.

Then you think of the torrent solutions, for WoW, HL2, and other large delivery applications, it makes sense to use digital delivery versus boxes and trucks. It eliminates the largest costs of delivery and distribution.

The infrastructure bottleneck point right now is your 100b routers and cable box limitations. Fios is a start, but even uncapping cable to higher throughput, gigabit will reduce the strains tremendously since a 1Gb file will be not even a minute to d/l.

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snowy

Some municipalities in my area are already addressing this problem. I used to live in the Silicon Forest, and they (Verizon) tore up all of our streets for the installation of a FIOS network. I would assume the spread of upgrades to FIOS will be similar to that of dial-up-->cable/DSL. More densely populated areas with more industrial/commercial customers that require FIOS to conduct business will get FIOS first, but it will inevitably spread. It's already started to branch out in the Portland area, from originally Hillsboro to surrounding environs, as cities allow for their streets to be cut up to install FIOS.

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xepherys

I vehemently disagree. The studios and media moguls desperately want things to go this way, but most consumers don't, and those that do will probably change their minds if it really catches on. Apart from the bandwidth issues that Will mentions, there are also much stronger forms of DRM that can (will) be implemented, meaning much less allowable use for what you pay for. Also, most media available like this will likely stay in a rental type of set up. you will never even "own" anything more than the right to watch it once. Music has already proven the horrors of DRM to fair use. Don't support them taking that away for our video as well.


Well, that' partly true. It has a much lower storage capacity, currently, than platter-based media (hard drives). Also, even with the cost slowly falling, the costs currently are absolutely astronomical. It will not be soon that the prices fall to a range that people are comfortable with. From a performance standpoint, SSDs are great, but from a storage and cost standpoint, they have several years left to mature (at least).

There are other technical matters here that need to be taken into consideration. First, the smallest scale VRAM chips available do not carry the same data/sq. in. as magnetic media. While the chips are being manufactured smaller and smaller, so are the particles on magnetic platters. There are still HDD power-houses that are making improvements and we could easily see 2.0-2.5TB drives available by 2009, pushing the capacity bar that much higher for SSDs to meet. They also both have similar problems. While moore's Law applies to SSDs, there are other laws and principles of physics that apply to the magnetic platter HHDs. It's amazing that both have come this far, and reasonably speaking, both are nearing an end. On the magnetic media front, PMR or Perpendicular Magnetic Recording, recently allowed the 1TB barrier to be crossed. On the solid state front, perhaps Intel will license it's new High-K Dielectric tech and memory manufacturers will be able to use it for larger capacity, lower power memory.

Hitachi has also announce 30nm and 50nm read heads, which they promise will allow for 4TB drives by 2011.

Either way, I don't see SSD taking over for large-scale storage anytime soon. The most likely outcome are the hybrid devices that are being developed, using magnetic platters for the bulk of the storage and SSD tech to cache and pre-cache commonly used data (like system files for faster boot times).


As for bandwidth, again, FiOS isn't really a solution, as AT&T and Verizon have started to prove. The infrastructure is only part of the issue. And 100Mbps devices aren't a technological limitation either. it's core switching and routing as well as IP protocols that need to be revised. Stronger multicasting support, better core switching and such would make content delivery a more viable option. But, as I said before, I believe that connected media delivery is only a benefit to the pocketbooks of the studios and will prove to make most consumers very unhappy in the end.

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Cynthetiq

not that wired has been dead on with it's lists, it usualy is close to the mark.

DRM is a different problem, and can be a hinderence. But really how much has it "hindered" itunes store? over 1B downloads isn't something small to sneeze at.

The technology limitations you mention, were mentioned before for the past decade, "We'll never get past this limit...", "Moore's law is coming to an end..." all have been touted before and then someone comes up with something fascinating and able to bridge those issues.

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xepherys

Well, in principle, Moore's Law must come to an end. There's a point where molecules are simply not stable enough to store data in any current form. If they develop quantum storage sometime soon, then great. Sure, there have been amazing discoveries every couple of years that extend Moore's Law, but the naysayers have always pointed to existing technology. now we don't point to the technology being the dead-end, but the actual laws of Physics. If Intel (or anybody else) can manage to "discover" a way around those, I guess we're golden. I don't see it happening. I'd say, best guess, we'll hit 5-10GB in a 3.5" hard drive before magnetic media can literally go no further. We'll probably someday get to 20GB or so with solid state in the same form factor, but cost will continue to be a factor as capacity grows.

DRM IS a problem. No, it hasn't affected iTunes sales because the vast majority of people download iTunes music for the iPods. it's a big reason the Zune is having such a hard time. But video is different. People want to be able to take movies with them, burn them to disc, play them on a multitude of players and take them to a buddy's house. DRM can and often does prevent such measures. Also note that in Europe, where DRM-less music is available online, the sales numbers for non-DRM music top those of DRM music per customer.

Also on the streaming media front... it's going to take stand-alone devices that are VERy easy to use and understand. Sure, even gramma has a DVR cable box these days, but unless it's as seamlessly integrated (meaning not nearly as much competition) it's going to scare away a lot of people. Shit, how many video stores still carry VHS? Lots! Why? Because enough people still rent them. That means there are a lot of people who have not even moved to DVD yet, let alone HD-format discs and definitely not online delivery.

DVD rental is easy. you want a movie? you go to the store, grab it, take it home, take it back. Online rentals? Let's say for sake of argument that the DRM protection allots you 48 to view the movie. Well, that's about on par with video rentals (though most places do at least 3 nights even for new releases these days). It has to physically download. So any slowdown of your home internet connection means you may have difficulties even getting the media to begin with. Content delivery is a tricky thing to begin with, even for everyday internet (I've worked for ISPs in the past... it can be mind-bogglingly difficult) The work that goes into keeping a Tier 1 providers connection available is a hefty amount of work. To offer full-range (video store quantity) downloadable content? it'll take a LOT of overhead. A LOT!

As for your snippet Cyn, I agree with them to a point. But as I mentioned above, capacity is useless if it's not being used. Full length feature films at 1080p with lossless audio don't take 50GB of data. They don't take 30GB either. *shrug* The capacity argument is fairly moot across the board. Blu-ray does currently have about 25 more titles than HD... but that's a ping-pong game that's been going on for how long now? About two years? By Spring, HD will have more, by summer, BD will have more. If you use those two items to rate the health of high-def discs, you'll always be confused. Look at the backers. Look at the money. look at the studios. Those three things are where the end will be. Sony, as previously mentioned, has yet to create and market a media format that has gained mass acceptance. BetaMax was far superior to VHS, technically, but VHS won out in the end. MiniDiscs are actually pretty nice, but if you don't live in Japan, I'd wager you've never even seen a studio album on one. It never happened in the US or Europe. Memory Sticks? Pff!

And with the backers, just take the side of Microsoft, love em or hate em. In the end they'll buy the support they need if they have to. It wouldn't be the first (or last) time.

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Cynthetiq

Zune is having a hard time because the store design is old and busted. It is the MTV Urge system codeveloped with MS during the play for sure days. They walked away from MTV after MTV put in all the money into researching and development. Urge was a piece of crap to begin with, and with Zune it's a bigger piece of crap with a player ecosystem.

Fiber is all over the place laying dormant and dark. Last mile is still a problem, but again, your DRM claims are what techies give a damn about. Average joe consumer just wants to play it on their home, friend's house, car, portable player, etc. if the companies make that easy the masses will not have any issues.

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telekinetic

Blu-Ray specifications have better quality audio, but the real difference if you're comparing an HD-DVD head to head with a Blu Ray disk of the same movie is the extra features: HD-DVD requires all players to be capable of running the extra scripting language, so the bonus content is much richer. Eventually this will become a non-issue, as BD-Java becomes more standardized on both Blu-ray disks and players, but right now, you're going to have a much more comprehensive watching experience, in terms of extras, on an HD-DVD.

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Shauk

I really don't see what the big deal is, I mean they're already able to push HD signals over cable lines. Its not like the data throughput isn't there. I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to here.

IPv4 vs IPv6? Physical layer? sorry, I think I missed what you were saying here.

Sensei

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...ryid=1009&cs=1

With #1 studio Warner going Blu-Ray, that's five (Sony, Fox, Disney and Lionsgate, Warner) for Blu-Ray and two for HD DVD (Paramount and Universal). The writing is on the wall when one considers the fact that all PS3s play Blu-Ray (only some 360s play HD DVD), the existing approximate 2-1 disc sales edge for BR, and Blockbuster's exclusive support for BR.

I've been waiting for the dust to settle since I bought my HDTV. PS3 goes on my shopping list now!

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Hain

Just one question: are their internal computer drives that support HD, Blu Ray, DVD, and CD? Because then I don't care which one wins as my PC is my media center. I briefly tried to google it, and nothing was saying, "Buy me."

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Sensei

I'd imagine your computer has neither and no computer will have either HD format drive standard due to cost. Buyers will probably have to specifically order the upgrade they want.

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