Analog broadcast TV to stop, digital is taking over - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Painted · 11-10-2006, 08:46 AM

So, in 2008, the U.S. of A. will halt any and all analog broadcast TV. You know, back in the day we used to fiddle around with the rabbit ears? Actually, I still do. I don't pay for T.V. I just watch the news, broadcast via analog signals. Reception isn't great, but I'm not complaining.

Now, about this stopperage of analog TV. I'm not entirely clear on this, so, if you're reading this and notice an error, please correct it. They aren't going to stop broadcasting TV (for free), they are just switching it to digital. But does that mean that my thirty year old woodgrain 13" box can still pick up Channel 2? I don't think so, not off the bat, I need some sort of decoder, which is built in to new TV's. Do I need a new antenna? Not necessarily, I don't think so, but a new one will allow me to view all of the channels, since digital TV splits up the channels into smaller wavelengths (or SOMEthing).

Ehhh I'm not sure on what the point of this thread is...maybe just a warning? That old Zenith won't be working at ALL come '08!

catback · 11-10-2006, 10:08 AM

Yea analog will eventually end and you'll need a converter if you want to keep using your existing tv...You'll also need a antenna geared for hdtv since the frequencies are different and antenna's are designed for different frequencies (you wouldn't use a CB antenna for your tv or vice-versa). As far as the 2008 cut off for analog I'm not positive but I believe the tv networks have petitioned the FCC for it to be extended so people had and/or could get hdtv's at readily affordable price since at the time of the petition hdtv's were higher than average price compared to analog tv's. Basically the tv networks don't want to lose any viewers from the switch over.

Summed up your old tv will work WITH a converter after the networks switch over and the 2008 date I believe has been pushed back, have to follow up on this intel to find out though.

n0nsensical · 11-11-2006, 04:42 AM

you don't need a new antenna any more than you need to use different antennas for different stations now. HDTV broadcasting is still in the same general frequency range. sure, in theory, the optimal antenna design changes with frequency, but with a simple dipole antenna the only variable is the length anyway which you can adjust.

p.s. i wouldn't count on analog stations actually going off the air in 2008. hdtv adoption is still very slow. the date has been pushed back over and over. i'm sure at some point in the past analog broadcasting was scheduled to stop before 2006 too.

Psycho Dad · 11-11-2006, 04:54 AM

According to this link:

Quote:

December 26, 2005 — 2009 Hard Date Set For DTV Transition
Just in time for Christmas both branches of Congress agreed in late December to a February 18th, 2009 "hard date" for the DTV transition. This will not only end analog transmissions in the US, but will also free up analog spectrum for emergency first responders and also reap an enormous windfall of cash to the federal government when it auctions off the remaining analog spectrum by January of 2008.

The distinction of the term "hard date" is made to acknowledge that, unlike earlier dates for the DTV transition, the 2009 date is not predicated on percentages of households able to receive the signals, or other conditions that could cause the date to move back should they not be met. In the wake of communications difficulties for first responders on 9/11, and during Hurricane Katrina, some congress people had been pushing for an earlier transition date to free up desperately needed spectrum. In addition, estimates are that the government will take in between $10 and $30 billion from selling off the remaining spectrum. Broadcasters had initially pushed for the transition to occur in April, so that it would occur after both the Super Bowl and "March Madness," which is the NCAA men's basketball tournament.

Of course that could be just a prelude to other fronts in the battle. As currently drafted the legislation also provides approximately $1.5 billion in subsidies for poor consumers to purchase set-top box converters that will allow owners of analog TV sets to view digital broadcasts. It's estimated that after the subsidy consumers would have to pay as much as $20 per box, which some "consumer advocates" have already decried as unfair.

Are You Watching HD On Your HDTV?
Only about half of the people who own HDTV are watching genuine High-Definition programming, according to separate studies by Jupiter Research and set-top box manufacturer Scientific Atlanta. Reasons cited by consumers who aren't getting HD signals for their HDTVs include that they aren't signed up for HDTV programming or aren't using the right gear.

23% of the HDTV owners who told the Scientific Atlanta study they aren't receiving HD signals acknowledged being confused by the messages displayed on some TV shows that says "broadcast in HD," not understanding that the message appears whether you're actually seeing the program in high-def or not. 28% of these HDTV owners said they didn't pick up any additional gear because their picture was already improved by the purchase of the HDTV, and 18% did not believe they needed any additional equipment to receive the HD signals.

As UAV readers certainly know, set-top boxes are most often required for an owner of an HDTV to receive HD signals and see all the glorious resolution there is to see. Although more sets are being sold with integrated CableCARD HD tuners that allow consumers to connect a single cable to their sets to get HD programming via cable, the cable companies aren't excited about promoting CableCARD since its one-way communication doesn't allow consumers to do pay-per-view or other On-Demand services that are lucrative for the cable companies.

I recently visited the house of a friend who has the same DirecTV HD TiVo that I own and an HD-resolution 50" plasma TV. In other words, this is someone with an HDTV, with a subscription to HD programming, and with the proper equipment to receive and watch HD all the livelong day. I saw the "broadcast in HD" message precede a broadcast of Alias on ABC, and then saw a very lousy, and obviously very non-HD image. Walking up to the TiVo I saw that the format button on the front of the box was set to 480i, meaning that every signal, no matter how high in definition, was being converted to standard definition 480i. It had been that way for months.

While I was able to switch the box quickly and offer my friend a quick tutorial, most consumers are apparently in the dark. Education about such complex topics is certainly in order, but where and from whom? The "Costco-ization" factor means that more and more people are buying their HDTVs at the lowest cost possible, and not from experienced dealers who would explain any of these nuances, let alone, gasp, actually go to the customer's house and setup the equipment properly and ensure that the purchasers of HDTVs get to see some HDTV. Going to the chain stores, a person is just as likely to be told that a Monster power line conditioner is what makes a TV high-definition, no matter what type of signal goes into it.

One potential answer (besides turning all of your friends onto UAV for ongoing education) is an independent source like the ISF (Imaging Science Foundation, www.imagingscience.com). Before my life as an AV journalist became too demanding I used to perform calibrations for consumers on a regular basis. One of the most valuable services I performed didn't require a color analyzer, and that was making sure my customers were using the highest quality connections and had access to the highest quality signals available in the area. Sounds like there are lots of people out there who could use such expert advice.

Looks like you have a little more time. At one time I had a FCC article that outlined what was to happen when but I can't find it now. I went through all this BS this summer when shopping for a TV. One thing I can tell you is most of the TV salesmen are either uninformed or not telling the truth.

n0nsensical · 11-11-2006, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

According to this link:

Looks like you have a little more time. At one time I had a FCC article that outlined what was to happen when but I can't find it now. I went through all this BS this summer when shopping for a TV. One thing I can tell you is most of the TV salesmen are either uninformed or not telling the truth.

well, yeah, salespeople in general are full of shit. the entire field of sales is the art of trying to convince people to buy shit they don't need. now, should you determine that you want this thing you don't need anyway, you still have to go in with the assumption that they are full of shit because they aren't trained any better, and do the research yourself.

and yeah again, the whole HDTV thing is a massive travesty.
-most people don't have and don't care about having HDTV

-out of the people who have bought an HDTV, a significant fraction of them think they do but don't actually watch anything in HD because they're entirely clueless about how to go about getting HD programming into their TVs, and may not even know what HD looks like, thanks to retail stores being equally clueless, or they can't tell the difference from SD anyway!

-in order to fit in more programming, cable companies and broadcasters digitally compress the hell out of the video streams such that they look like high-resolution shit

-instead of making one damn HDTV standard, they go and make 720p AND 1080i, thus screwing over all HDTV owners except those with CRTs, because the TV has to do upsampling or downsampling half the time to fit the picture into its one native resolution! then the obvious next move is to go to 1080p, which is handily done by people who don't have to worry about signal bandwidth like video game console manufacturers, thus instantly obsoleting everyone's new HDTV that doesn't support it!

-in their neverending quest to be a bunch of assholes who screw over the public for profit, "content" owners push for and get new digital restrictions management called HDCP, again instantly obsoleting everyone's HDTV that doesn't support it! not to mention the broadcast flag! we managed to stop the broadcast flag on a technicality last time, but it's only a matter of time before Hollywood buys off enough (presumably Democratic now) Congressmen and women to get it mandated by law. jesus. digital technology should be and is often great, but it's just sad how easily it gets twisted (see also DMCA) to serve the ends of evil men.

1010011010 · 11-11-2006, 05:38 AM

HD is having trouble because broadcasters want to make it slightly harder to record. Basically, they've seen what happened when the artificial scarcity of the music and movie distribution monopolies was broken, so they want to try to maintain that as long as possible with television rather than adapt to their new environment.

The net result is that that major selling point has boiled down to HD being able to offer a slightly better picture on the correct hardware. And it does look really nice on the correct hardware... I'm just completely unwilling to pay for the stuff. Cleaning my glasses really well is a more relevant factor to picture quality, honestly.

Also, the cessation of analog broadcast will probably be eased somewhat by the cable companies. Most of the set-top boxes have models that are HD receivers... they'll probably just start offering them as a gateway drug to larger cable packages.

Painted · 11-11-2006, 09:57 AM

Hey thanks for the info guys...I appreciate that. $20 for a set-top box doesn't seem too bad. It should be absolutely free, since this is just business and government making these deals.

It's too bad they couldn't keep one or two analog channels (like channel 2 & 5) and sell off the rest.

ASU2003 · 11-11-2006, 06:36 PM

It is Feb 18, 2009, and I can't wait.

I have an ATSC tuner and set-top box already, and I get digital over-the-air channels that don't cost me any money, and look just as good as digital cable. There are 3 or 4 PBS channels, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, CW, the Tube (all music videos), and a second Fox station. There is an electronic program guide, so it tells me the name of the show that is currently on, and I can see what is going to be on later in the day.

And having an HDTV makes HD over-the-air broadcasts look really good (sports, primetime shows, late night talk shows,...)

And I agree that the TV and movie studios want to stop people from downloading and saving their TV shows in digital quality.

noodle · 11-11-2006, 07:21 PM

I actually don't like HD or the HDTVs all that much.
My eyes have serious trouble focusing on it at times. Sometimes it even looks like I'm watching 3D without the glasses if I'm really tired. Long live my rabbit ears!

But maybe by 2009, I'll be able to afford a new TV and possibly even cable. gasp!

ASU2003 · 11-11-2006, 08:02 PM

There are digital over the air reciever boxes that use antennas (I have one for my old 27" TV). You can plug those into your 4:3 Standard defiition TVs and see the picture just fine (and much better than the analog OTA picture)

Deltona Couple · 11-17-2006, 05:08 AM

OK guys, I think most of you appear to have a slight confusion on what all of this means. There is a significant difference between DIGITAL broadcast, and HDTV. Digital signal is just that...DIGITAL. ANY digital receiver can receive the signal, pretty much any TV can be used, you just need a receiver, and the receiver only needs to be a DIGITAL receiver, NOT HDTV. HDTV is a high definition signal, that is of a higher quality digital. The FCC changes are only to DIGITAL, NOT HDTV. So you can still go out there and but a regular new TV, and it doesn't HAVE to be an HDTV, it just has to be one that has a digital receiver built in, or you have to have a basic digital receiver box.

spindles · 12-07-2006, 05:55 PM

In Oz, the TV stations have started broadcasting both HD and SD digital, but still retain the analog signal. You can get a digital set top box for around $40AU (approx $30USD). The bonus here is the govt broadcaster has a second "digital only" channel. This is capable of picking up SD and HD signals, but my TV will only display the SD ones.

All of these channels are widescreen, and display on my 10 yo TV in letter box format (i.e. with black bars above and below the image).

I'm not sure they have set a time frame here for turning off analog, but I don't really mind. The cost of entry is pretty low...

There is only one downside that I can see to digital - if you had crappy reception on analog, you may end up with no picture at all on digital. Basically, if the signal is not good enough, you get a blue screen.

I'll get a big shiny new TV one day that does HD, but it is hardly high on my priorities...

ktspktsp · 12-07-2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n0nsensical

not to mention the broadcast flag! we managed to stop the broadcast flag on a technicality last time, but it's only a matter of time before Hollywood buys off enough (presumably Democratic now) Congressmen and women to get it mandated by law.

What's the broadcast flag?

Thanks for the other info in your post by the way.

n0nsensical · 12-07-2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktspktsp

What's the broadcast flag?

Thanks for the other info in your post by the way.

The broadcast flag specifies whether there are restrictions on the display and copying of programming. I'm not sure the exact details but Wikipedia says it requires "that all HDTV demodulators must 'listen' for the flag (or assume it to be present in all signals). Flagged content must be output only to 'protected outputs' (such as DVI and HDMI ports with HDCP encryption), or in degraded form through analog outputs or digital outputs with visual resolution of 720x480 pixels (EDTV) or less. Flagged content may be recorded only by 'authorized' methods, which may include tethering of recordings to a single device."

As a purely technological measure, it's not much since any device could simply ignore the flag; the problem comes in when the government makes it illegal to sell or distribute one that does. The FCC already tried to do that, but last year the DC Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the FCC didn't have the authority. Ever since, the usual suspects have been trying to convince Congress to pass a law enforcing the flag or giving the FCC authority to do so, and nearly succeeding. Fortunately even if that happens, devices currently in use that are unaware of the flag will continue to work. Also it only applies to over-the-air broadcasts. Cable companies can do whatever they want and I think it's pretty standard for them to heavily encrypt HDTV programming such that only their box can decode it anyway.

11-10-2006, 08:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	Analog broadcast TV to stop, digital is taking over So, in 2008, the U.S. of A. will halt any and all analog broadcast TV. You know, back in the day we used to fiddle around with the rabbit ears? Actually, I still do. I don't pay for T.V. I just watch the news, broadcast via analog signals. Reception isn't great, but I'm not complaining. Now, about this stopperage of analog TV. I'm not entirely clear on this, so, if you're reading this and notice an error, please correct it. They aren't going to stop broadcasting TV (for free), they are just switching it to digital. But does that mean that my thirty year old woodgrain 13" box can still pick up Channel 2? I don't think so, not off the bat, I need some sort of decoder, which is built in to new TV's. Do I need a new antenna? Not necessarily, I don't think so, but a new one will allow me to view all of the channels, since digital TV splits up the channels into smaller wavelengths (or SOMEthing). Ehhh I'm not sure on what the point of this thread is...maybe just a warning? That old Zenith won't be working at ALL come '08!

11-11-2006, 04:42 AM	#3 (permalink)
n0nsensical Junkie Location: San Francisco	you don't need a new antenna any more than you need to use different antennas for different stations now. HDTV broadcasting is still in the same general frequency range. sure, in theory, the optimal antenna design changes with frequency, but with a simple dipole antenna the only variable is the length anyway which you can adjust. p.s. i wouldn't count on analog stations actually going off the air in 2008. hdtv adoption is still very slow. the date has been pushed back over and over. i'm sure at some point in the past analog broadcasting was scheduled to stop before 2006 too. Last edited by n0nsensical; 11-11-2006 at 04:46 AM..

11-11-2006, 05:38 AM	#6 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	HD is having trouble because broadcasters want to make it slightly harder to record. Basically, they've seen what happened when the artificial scarcity of the music and movie distribution monopolies was broken, so they want to try to maintain that as long as possible with television rather than adapt to their new environment. The net result is that that major selling point has boiled down to HD being able to offer a slightly better picture on the correct hardware. And it does look really nice on the correct hardware... I'm just completely unwilling to pay for the stuff. Cleaning my glasses really well is a more relevant factor to picture quality, honestly. Also, the cessation of analog broadcast will probably be eased somewhat by the cable companies. Most of the set-top boxes have models that are HD receivers... they'll probably just start offering them as a gateway drug to larger cable packages. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

11-17-2006, 05:08 AM	#11 (permalink)
Deltona Couple Addict Location: Spring, Texas	OK guys, I think most of you appear to have a slight confusion on what all of this means. There is a significant difference between DIGITAL broadcast, and HDTV. Digital signal is just that...DIGITAL. ANY digital receiver can receive the signal, pretty much any TV can be used, you just need a receiver, and the receiver only needs to be a DIGITAL receiver, NOT HDTV. HDTV is a high definition signal, that is of a higher quality digital. The FCC changes are only to DIGITAL, NOT HDTV. So you can still go out there and but a regular new TV, and it doesn't HAVE to be an HDTV, it just has to be one that has a digital receiver built in, or you have to have a basic digital receiver box. __________________ "It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

12-07-2006, 05:55 PM	#12 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	In Oz, the TV stations have started broadcasting both HD and SD digital, but still retain the analog signal. You can get a digital set top box for around $40AU (approx $30USD). The bonus here is the govt broadcaster has a second "digital only" channel. This is capable of picking up SD and HD signals, but my TV will only display the SD ones. All of these channels are widescreen, and display on my 10 yo TV in letter box format (i.e. with black bars above and below the image). I'm not sure they have set a time frame here for turning off analog, but I don't really mind. The cost of entry is pretty low... There is only one downside that I can see to digital - if you had crappy reception on analog, you may end up with no picture at all on digital. Basically, if the signal is not good enough, you get a blue screen. I'll get a big shiny new TV one day that does HD, but it is hardly high on my priorities... __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

11-10-2006, 10:08 AM	#2 (permalink)
catback Psycho Location: North America	Yea analog will eventually end and you'll need a converter if you want to keep using your existing tv...You'll also need a antenna geared for hdtv since the frequencies are different and antenna's are designed for different frequencies (you wouldn't use a CB antenna for your tv or vice-versa). As far as the 2008 cut off for analog I'm not positive but I believe the tv networks have petitioned the FCC for it to be extended so people had and/or could get hdtv's at readily affordable price since at the time of the petition hdtv's were higher than average price compared to analog tv's. Basically the tv networks don't want to lose any viewers from the switch over. Summed up your old tv will work WITH a converter after the networks switch over and the 2008 date I believe has been pushed back, have to follow up on this intel to find out though.

11-11-2006, 09:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	Hey thanks for the info guys...I appreciate that. $20 for a set-top box doesn't seem too bad. It should be absolutely free, since this is just business and government making these deals. It's too bad they couldn't keep one or two analog channels (like channel 2 & 5) and sell off the rest.

11-11-2006, 06:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	It is Feb 18, 2009, and I can't wait. I have an ATSC tuner and set-top box already, and I get digital over-the-air channels that don't cost me any money, and look just as good as digital cable. There are 3 or 4 PBS channels, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, CW, the Tube (all music videos), and a second Fox station. There is an electronic program guide, so it tells me the name of the show that is currently on, and I can see what is going to be on later in the day. And having an HDTV makes HD over-the-air broadcasts look really good (sports, primetime shows, late night talk shows,...) And I agree that the TV and movie studios want to stop people from downloading and saving their TV shows in digital quality.

11-11-2006, 08:02 PM	#10 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	There are digital over the air reciever boxes that use antennas (I have one for my old 27" TV). You can plug those into your 4:3 Standard defiition TVs and see the picture just fine (and much better than the analog OTA picture)