4400+ cooling troubles - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

wombatman · 01-19-2006, 03:08 PM

I know I did a thread a while back about Prescott cooling, but now I'm having trouble with my AMD 4400+. Basically, I have temperatures of 48C idle/58-59C load (any and all amounts of load). This is what I had with the stock heatsink and what I have now with a Scythe Ninja and Arctic Silver 5. I'm not sure if I'm just unlucky here or if I have too much paste (I used about a grain of rice worth) or what. Ambient temperature is about 27C-33C, depending on the sensor. Cooling is 8 120mm fans, so I don't think it's a problem with getting cool air to the processor.

I welcome any suggestions.

Martian · 01-19-2006, 05:32 PM

Hmm. A few quick tips.

First off, sometimes when it comes to airflow, less is more. I run my 1700+ (I know, getting old) with a pair of 120mm fans, one front, one back. The airflow is set up in such a way that the air is pulled in by the front fan (through a filter to pull out the worst of the dust), up and across the cpu heatsink, then pushed out the back by the rear fan and PSU fan. That creates a slight pressure drop in the case, which is how I prefer to run it. Some people prefer positive pressure and if you run in the right circles you'll find lively debates over which is better. The main thrust of this is that, how your fans are placed is just as important as how many. Make sure they promote a uniform airstream, as turbulence keeps warm air in the case and hinders cooling.

Also, ambient temperature is important. If average temperature is around 30C, you're probably not going to get your CPU down much below 40C with air cooling no matter how big that heatsink is. There's a limit to the effectiveness fo air cooling, it wouldn't surprise me if you just happen to have reached it. Ambient temperature in my living room is somewhere between 15C-20C, my CPU runs at a nice 33 idle. In the summer when the temperature in the living room is closer to 30C, the idle temp spikes to about 41C.

At any rate, you're well within spec, so unless you're itching to overclock (I don't know why you'd feel the need with a 4400+, but hey) you're good. If so, I'd say turn the thermostat down first and see if that helps.

wombatman · 01-19-2006, 05:37 PM

For the fans, I have 4 in the fronts doing intake, 2 on the top and 2 on the back doing exhaust. There is no fan on the Ninja (although I have one for it if I so choose). All the fans are the same kind--Yate Loon 120mm--so it should be a fairly uniform airflow taking cool air across the motherboard and then either out the back or out the top.

I suspected that the ambient was something of a problem, but it's good to know that the temps aren't a problem in terms of spec. As for overclocking, I'd only be doing it because I could.

I just get a kick out of pushing the system a little, although I am sorely lacking in AMD overclocking knowledge (the HTT/FSB thing, the RAM dividers, etc).

NeoRete · 01-19-2006, 05:45 PM

How are you monitoring the CPU's temp? Is there any way that you could put a thermal sensor close to the heatsink to make sure what you're reading is correct?

Whenever I'm seating a new heatsink I usually work a pea-sized amount of thermal paste onto the bottom of the heatsink with a lint-free cloth and then wipe it off as cleanly as possible (although checking Artic Silver 5 instructions don't have this included - it might be due to the consistancy of the paste, but it still might be an option). Then I apply the pea-sized amount onto a dust-free vinyl glove, and then transfer the paste evenly on the cpu core. You could try to clean all the surfaces with pure acetone and a lint-free cloth before you try putting on the paste (be careful of additives in the acetone).

NeoRete · 01-19-2006, 06:03 PM

Excuse the double post - Checking other boards, 58-59°C seems to be running a bit hot for the processor (AMD has the max temp for 4400+ listed as 65°C which you're not far off from). If you're running 27-33°C ambient, I think you'd still be able to get around 50°C on the processor considering your setup

The Ninja might benefit by having a fan specifically for it, although it is a good passive cooler I'm wondering if you might see a difference.

wombatman · 01-19-2006, 06:06 PM

Temps are being monitored with SpeedFan. I don't have any kind of thermal monitor at the moment, and it's likely that I won't buy one just to check this. But if I do come across either on the cheap or as part of something I get, I'll definitely put it on a corner of the processor to be sure of temps.

And I'm gonna put the fan on this weekend at some point. I do wish the Ninja could be point more up than it is though. 3 of the heatpipes (the ones on the bottom) are relatively useless since all the coolant inside will naturally move away from the base without carrying any heat. At some point, I will also look into cleaning the paste off with acetone and making sure I have the proper amount.

wombatman · 01-19-2006, 09:59 PM

Well, just added the fan and saw it knock about 5-6 degrees C off my load temp. I guess I'll settle for a load temp of 54C or so. Now to figure out this whole AMD overclocking

Martian · 01-19-2006, 10:03 PM

NeoRete - Max is generally 65-70C for any processor; as a rule, I don't worry about anything under 60C for max load. I'll admit I'm a little out of the loop on the latest AMD processors, but they historically run hot. Mid to high 50's isn't anything I'd get worked up over, especially at an ambient temperature of 30C.

Plaid13 · 01-20-2006, 05:37 PM

not sure what kinda set up you have going on in your case as far as airflow but the last couple systems i have had i have had a fan on the side of the case that blows air right at the cpu heatsink/fan so all the air going to your cpus heatsink is from outside of the case not the stuff thats flowing around being heated by everything else in there. its always been good for about 5 degrees or so for me. with my 3700+ even under full load for a long time it never hits 45C and its not rare to see my cpu idle a couple degrees lower then the mb temp that both idle at 33-35C

Its also really important to make sure you have a planned airflow throught he case. Round IDE cables are always a plus. with 8 120mm fans you really need to make sure you have a good airflow through the case if those fans are blowing at eachother they could be working against eachother. experement with turning one or two of them around. if you have two on the side of the case blowing at the mb try turning one around so one blows in and one sucks out. also make sure you have quality vans. dont count on the brand name or what they say the airflow is. i have a 120mm coolermaster fan supposed to flow real well and yeah its a joke took it out and replaced it with bobs generic computer show $2 speical fan that dosnt make any more noise then the coolermaster and it flows 10x as much air. also if you have grated vents that you have the fans mounted to consider cutting them out and getting a grill to put over it the perferated metal stuff just dosnt like to let air flow as well as it could.
If money isnt a consideration you could always try watercooling.

MikeSty · 01-20-2006, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombatman

For the fans, I have 4 in the fronts doing intake, 2 on the top and 2 on the back doing exhaust. There is no fan on the Ninja (although I have one for it if I so choose). All the fans are the same kind--Yate Loon 120mm--so it should be a fairly uniform airflow taking cool air across the motherboard and then either out the back or out the top.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, where are the hard drives!?

soccerchamp76 · 01-20-2006, 06:32 PM

Check the inside of the case and move any wires/devices out of the way to maximize airflow within the case. Cleaning out dust as well will improve cooling. Check where the computer is too, within a cabinet is a bad idea. On the floor is the best, IMO, as hot air rises and the floor is the coolest part of the room.

wombatman · 01-20-2006, 11:38 PM

Mike, it's an Xoxide Aluminum Cube case--18 inches in all dimensions. The hard drives are in the back of the case. The airflow path is very good (no wires in the way), the case is on the floor with lots of cool air to work with. As for positioning of the fans, I made sure I have 4 doing intake and 4 doing exhaust with the intake being in the front and the exhaust being at the back and top. The fans are top notch, as they move about 50CFM at only 28dBa. And finally, there is not a spot for a fan on the side of the case, so that's out (since I have no intention of adding one).

If anyone wants to see the configuration of the case, let me know and I'll take some pictures to illustrate more clearly.

MooseMan3000 · 01-21-2006, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombatman

Mike, it's an Xoxide Aluminum Cube case--18 inches in all dimensions.

That explains it. Seriously, that's a terrible design for airflow. There's too much airspace inside the case, so as soon as the air is pulled in, it eddies and sticks right inside. It sounds like you've set the case up to get the best possible airflow, but it still won't even come close to matching a decent normal case.

I don't know who designed that case, but I hate him and his family - especially his grandmother.

wombatman · 01-21-2006, 08:57 AM

Yeah, I guess I could see that. It's not completely wide open though. The motherboard tray (removeable!) basically splits the inside right down the middle from front to back. 3 of the front fans flow on the component side of the mobo, 1 back fan pulls exhaust, and 1 top fan pulls exhaust. There 1 intake, 3 exhaust on the back side where the hard drives and optical drives are. To give some idea, my WD raptor is sitting at 27C right now, and that's higher than usual. I also have that fan on the Ninja now, so that should help move some of the air right in the middle that might have been caught up before.

Marvelous Marv · 02-05-2006, 08:18 PM

On something of a related note:

Within the last couple of days, some type of fan has been intermittently starting, running for a minute or two, and then stopping. I'm taking that to mean something is running a little hot, since I've had the computer for a year or so without hearing it.

So does anyone have any neat utilities to check temperatures, or do I need to venture into the rat's nest and crack things open?

connyosis · 02-05-2006, 09:29 PM

An app like Everest (http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/...-Edition.shtml) should be able to read your sensors and let you check whether something is running too hot.

Marvelous Marv · 02-08-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connyosis

An app like Everest (http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/...-Edition.shtml) should be able to read your sensors and let you check whether something is running too hot.

It reports the motherboard at 41 C. (106 F.), CPU at 48 C. (118 F.), and the HDD at 33 C. (91 F.). It says the CPU and chassis fans are working.

Are these temps considered normal? And if you don't mind, can you tell me at what temp I should begin to be concerned?

connyosis · 02-08-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

It reports the motherboard at 41 C. (106 F.), CPU at 48 C. (118 F.), and the HDD at 33 C. (91 F.). It says the CPU and chassis fans are working.

Are these temps considered normal? And if you don't mind, can you tell me at what temp I should begin to be concerned?

They look fine, though it wouldn't hurt to lower the CPU-temp a little. I believe AMD processors are fine up until around 70C, Intels a little higher.
My Athlon64 3200+ is hovering between 40-45 degrees at full load, so if you get those temperatures when idle I'd suggest you see if you can increase airflow in your case, as well as maybe getting a better CPU-cooler.

Marvelous Marv · 07-24-2006, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connyosis

They look fine, though it wouldn't hurt to lower the CPU-temp a little. I believe AMD processors are fine up until around 70C, Intels a little higher.
My Athlon64 3200+ is hovering between 40-45 degrees at full load, so if you get those temperatures when idle I'd suggest you see if you can increase airflow in your case, as well as maybe getting a better CPU-cooler.

A belated thanks-you called it. I just took the side off the case, since it was easy to get to, and the fan came on less often.

Tonight it turned on and stayed on awhile, so I dragged it out of its area and took a look.

The fan hasn't come on again since I cleaned all that crap out.

01-19-2006, 03:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	4400+ cooling troubles I know I did a thread a while back about Prescott cooling, but now I'm having trouble with my AMD 4400+. Basically, I have temperatures of 48C idle/58-59C load (any and all amounts of load). This is what I had with the stock heatsink and what I have now with a Scythe Ninja and Arctic Silver 5. I'm not sure if I'm just unlucky here or if I have too much paste (I used about a grain of rice worth) or what. Ambient temperature is about 27C-33C, depending on the sensor. Cooling is 8 120mm fans, so I don't think it's a problem with getting cool air to the processor. I welcome any suggestions.

01-19-2006, 05:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Hmm. A few quick tips. First off, sometimes when it comes to airflow, less is more. I run my 1700+ (I know, getting old) with a pair of 120mm fans, one front, one back. The airflow is set up in such a way that the air is pulled in by the front fan (through a filter to pull out the worst of the dust), up and across the cpu heatsink, then pushed out the back by the rear fan and PSU fan. That creates a slight pressure drop in the case, which is how I prefer to run it. Some people prefer positive pressure and if you run in the right circles you'll find lively debates over which is better. The main thrust of this is that, how your fans are placed is just as important as how many. Make sure they promote a uniform airstream, as turbulence keeps warm air in the case and hinders cooling. Also, ambient temperature is important. If average temperature is around 30C, you're probably not going to get your CPU down much below 40C with air cooling no matter how big that heatsink is. There's a limit to the effectiveness fo air cooling, it wouldn't surprise me if you just happen to have reached it. Ambient temperature in my living room is somewhere between 15C-20C, my CPU runs at a nice 33 idle. In the summer when the temperature in the living room is closer to 30C, the idle temp spikes to about 41C. At any rate, you're well within spec, so unless you're itching to overclock (I don't know why you'd feel the need with a 4400+, but hey) you're good. If so, I'd say turn the thermostat down first and see if that helps. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

01-19-2006, 05:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
NeoRete Crazy Location: Cape Cod	How are you monitoring the CPU's temp? Is there any way that you could put a thermal sensor close to the heatsink to make sure what you're reading is correct? Whenever I'm seating a new heatsink I usually work a pea-sized amount of thermal paste onto the bottom of the heatsink with a lint-free cloth and then wipe it off as cleanly as possible (although checking Artic Silver 5 instructions don't have this included - it might be due to the consistancy of the paste, but it still might be an option). Then I apply the pea-sized amount onto a dust-free vinyl glove, and then transfer the paste evenly on the cpu core. You could try to clean all the surfaces with pure acetone and a lint-free cloth before you try putting on the paste (be careful of additives in the acetone). __________________ Charlie was a chemist but Charlie is nomore, what Charlie thought was H2O was H2SO4 Last edited by NeoRete; 01-19-2006 at 05:47 PM.. Reason: question was already posted

01-19-2006, 06:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
NeoRete Crazy Location: Cape Cod	Excuse the double post - Checking other boards, 58-59°C seems to be running a bit hot for the processor (AMD has the max temp for 4400+ listed as 65°C which you're not far off from). If you're running 27-33°C ambient, I think you'd still be able to get around 50°C on the processor considering your setup The Ninja might benefit by having a fan specifically for it, although it is a good passive cooler I'm wondering if you might see a difference. __________________ Charlie was a chemist but Charlie is nomore, what Charlie thought was H2O was H2SO4

01-19-2006, 10:03 PM	#8 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	NeoRete - Max is generally 65-70C for any processor; as a rule, I don't worry about anything under 60C for max load. I'll admit I'm a little out of the loop on the latest AMD processors, but they historically run hot. Mid to high 50's isn't anything I'd get worked up over, especially at an ambient temperature of 30C. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

01-19-2006, 05:37 PM	#3 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	For the fans, I have 4 in the fronts doing intake, 2 on the top and 2 on the back doing exhaust. There is no fan on the Ninja (although I have one for it if I so choose). All the fans are the same kind--Yate Loon 120mm--so it should be a fairly uniform airflow taking cool air across the motherboard and then either out the back or out the top. I suspected that the ambient was something of a problem, but it's good to know that the temps aren't a problem in terms of spec. As for overclocking, I'd only be doing it because I could. I just get a kick out of pushing the system a little, although I am sorely lacking in AMD overclocking knowledge (the HTT/FSB thing, the RAM dividers, etc).

01-19-2006, 06:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	Temps are being monitored with SpeedFan. I don't have any kind of thermal monitor at the moment, and it's likely that I won't buy one just to check this. But if I do come across either on the cheap or as part of something I get, I'll definitely put it on a corner of the processor to be sure of temps. And I'm gonna put the fan on this weekend at some point. I do wish the Ninja could be point more up than it is though. 3 of the heatpipes (the ones on the bottom) are relatively useless since all the coolant inside will naturally move away from the base without carrying any heat. At some point, I will also look into cleaning the paste off with acetone and making sure I have the proper amount.

01-19-2006, 09:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	Well, just added the fan and saw it knock about 5-6 degrees C off my load temp. I guess I'll settle for a load temp of 54C or so. Now to figure out this whole AMD overclocking

01-20-2006, 05:37 PM	#9 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	not sure what kinda set up you have going on in your case as far as airflow but the last couple systems i have had i have had a fan on the side of the case that blows air right at the cpu heatsink/fan so all the air going to your cpus heatsink is from outside of the case not the stuff thats flowing around being heated by everything else in there. its always been good for about 5 degrees or so for me. with my 3700+ even under full load for a long time it never hits 45C and its not rare to see my cpu idle a couple degrees lower then the mb temp that both idle at 33-35C Its also really important to make sure you have a planned airflow throught he case. Round IDE cables are always a plus. with 8 120mm fans you really need to make sure you have a good airflow through the case if those fans are blowing at eachother they could be working against eachother. experement with turning one or two of them around. if you have two on the side of the case blowing at the mb try turning one around so one blows in and one sucks out. also make sure you have quality vans. dont count on the brand name or what they say the airflow is. i have a 120mm coolermaster fan supposed to flow real well and yeah its a joke took it out and replaced it with bobs generic computer show $2 speical fan that dosnt make any more noise then the coolermaster and it flows 10x as much air. also if you have grated vents that you have the fans mounted to consider cutting them out and getting a grill to put over it the perferated metal stuff just dosnt like to let air flow as well as it could. If money isnt a consideration you could always try watercooling.

01-20-2006, 06:32 PM	#11 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	Check the inside of the case and move any wires/devices out of the way to maximize airflow within the case. Cleaning out dust as well will improve cooling. Check where the computer is too, within a cabinet is a bad idea. On the floor is the best, IMO, as hot air rises and the floor is the coolest part of the room. __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

01-20-2006, 11:38 PM	#12 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	Mike, it's an Xoxide Aluminum Cube case--18 inches in all dimensions. The hard drives are in the back of the case. The airflow path is very good (no wires in the way), the case is on the floor with lots of cool air to work with. As for positioning of the fans, I made sure I have 4 doing intake and 4 doing exhaust with the intake being in the front and the exhaust being at the back and top. The fans are top notch, as they move about 50CFM at only 28dBa. And finally, there is not a spot for a fan on the side of the case, so that's out (since I have no intention of adding one). If anyone wants to see the configuration of the case, let me know and I'll take some pictures to illustrate more clearly.

01-21-2006, 08:57 AM	#14 (permalink)
wombatman Insane	Yeah, I guess I could see that. It's not completely wide open though. The motherboard tray (removeable!) basically splits the inside right down the middle from front to back. 3 of the front fans flow on the component side of the mobo, 1 back fan pulls exhaust, and 1 top fan pulls exhaust. There 1 intake, 3 exhaust on the back side where the hard drives and optical drives are. To give some idea, my WD raptor is sitting at 27C right now, and that's higher than usual. I also have that fan on the Ninja now, so that should help move some of the air right in the middle that might have been caught up before.

02-05-2006, 08:18 PM	#15 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	On something of a related note: Within the last couple of days, some type of fan has been intermittently starting, running for a minute or two, and then stopping. I'm taking that to mean something is running a little hot, since I've had the computer for a year or so without hearing it. So does anyone have any neat utilities to check temperatures, or do I need to venture into the rat's nest and crack things open? __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

02-05-2006, 09:29 PM	#16 (permalink)
connyosis Psycho Location: Sweden - Land of the sodomite damned	An app like Everest (http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/...-Edition.shtml) should be able to read your sensors and let you check whether something is running too hot. __________________ If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.