thephuse

Damon to the Yankees... man.. i hated him... i guess imma have to start liking him...

Well now the RSox are screwed.. no CF.. no SS.. no 1B.... shaky bullpen... all they have is a starting rotation... which also has many questions... could the Bosox finish behind the Jays?

__________________
b000yahed up your w000pah!!

Joygasm~!!

pan6467

It's funny, the leader of "Screw the Yankees and screw the curse..... I hate the Yankees... I'm going to grow long hair and a beard and look like a street urchin and that is the way I'll play...." Goes to where the money is, and it's to the Yankees. I guess even his attitude of the hair, and his "look" had a price.

How pathetic baseball has become, the rivalries truly mean nothing anymore.

Plus, what this shows is that a few teams will go out and get whatever FA they want spend as much as they want and the rest of baseball gets leftovers. Pretty soon the all star players will just go from Boston to NYY to maybe the Cubs and Dodgers and that'll be it.

Clemens, Wells, Boggs, and so on they have all done it.

To be quite honest I love baseball but F/A is destroying any love and interest I have in the game. I'm getting tired of it and it just isn't fun anymore when you know the players aren't going to be loyal to the teams, the cities or the fans anymore.

It'd be like Charlie Frye leaving the Browns to play for the Steelers. He grew up hating the Steelers, knows the rivalry, hates the Steelers and has stated the only way he'd ever be a Steeler was if they were the only team in the NFL that would allow him to play. He said the first thing he did when the Browns drafted him was erase Roethlisburger's phone # from his cell.

Granted some of that is just talk, but that's what fans want to believe. Baseball has gotten to the point where the fans know the players are just rentals and will go to the most hated rival for a few dollars more and it means nothing to them.

With the cap and the "franchise player rule", I seriously doubt Frye will ever be a Steeler (if he is the real thing.... and I truly think he is going to be).

The great thing about the NFL and NBA with their caps is that you know every team has the same oppurtunity to get that marquee player, and most of the biggest stars stay with the same team.... unless they have attitude problems or issues that get them elsewhere (T.O.).

I doubt very much you'll see Lebron going to the Bulls or the Lakers or any of the NY teams, because the Cavs will "Larry Bird" him.

Baseball has become a sad parody of itself, and without the rivalries, it eventually will become meaningless.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dylanmarsh

The Sox managed to tie for first with one of least productive first baseman last year, along with the worst fielding and out-producing SS.

All the Sox have to do is find a first baseman to hit more than 10HR and hit better than .275, and a shortstop who can field and stay out of double-plays.

If losing Johnny Damon this FA year means obtaining Torri Hunter or Andruw Jones in next year's FA market, then I'll take that any day. Damon will be old Bernie Williams by the end of his contract.

And as far as the Sox only having their starting rotation, the last time I checked, they still have Loretta, Manny, Papi, Tek, and Nixon as their 2 thru 6 hitters. The Sox aren't done making moves this off season and will have the better team in the end.

pan6467

I truly yearn for baseball's golden era when you knew Ted Williams was a Bosock, Stan "The Man" Musial would be wearing his Cards uni., Bob Lemon and Bob Feller made Cleveland pitching the envy of baseball, Sandy Koufax was a true Blue Dodger, Ernie Banks was "Mr. Cub".

Even in the 80's when players like Andre Thornton, George Brett, Ozzie Smith, and so on, could have gone elsewhere for bigger money, but they chose to stay and sign "lifetime contracts" with the team and became integral parts of the city.

You just don't see that anymore and quite frankly, it's destroying baseball, to the point as I said a lifelong lover and student of the sport has become very disillusioned with MLB.

I guess players greed is just a mirror to society's now. It's a shame we may never see Kirby Pucketts, Robin Younts, Alan Trammells, and so on that spent careers on a single team because they knew what they meant to the city and the team.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

AVoiceOfReason

Until there is some sort of revenue sharing, the days of a player staying put for a long career seem to be over. Smoltz, Biggio, Jeter and some of that caliber are still one-team men--for now. I can't blame anyone for taking a higher paying job, since most of us have done it, but I also haven't taken EVERY higher paying job I could have had because there were other things than money I had to consider.

__________________
AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

thephuse

I think what led to Damon's departure is similar to what led to Pettitte's departure in NY.. We took him for granted too much to return, and didnt give him the attention and respect that he deserved... They felt slighted by their team, and decided to go to a team that gave them more attention i guess..

As for getting just a managable SS, 1B, and CF.. hrm.. I guess if you get torii or andruw next yr it'll work out well, but i dont see either teams letting their marquee players leave.. even with Atlanta's constant monetary struggles.. I think they'll keep him.. I think you underestimate Renteria and Millar.. I think they were solid players, despite Edgar's strugglind defense.. and Lowell could be a very big downgrade from Mueller if he doesnt improve..

__________________
b000yahed up your w000pah!!

Joygasm~!!

kutulu

Boston was smart to let him walk. $13M/yr is a lot to pay someone for league average OPS and average defense.

On to the subject of free agents and small market teams. There is revenue sharing AND there is a luxury tax.
Small market teams can do just fine. In fact, since 2002, almost half of the teams that made the playoffs had salaries under $80. Most of these were under $60M. Three of teh last 3 world champs had payrolls under $80 including the Marlins that were under $50M. The problem is that many are so cheap, make bad trades, bad FA signings, and bad drafting. Greedy owners pocket their revenue sharing and luxury tax monies.

There are three things that good teams do: They make smart FA signings, make trades at the right time, and use the draft efficiently.

Teams don't realize the value of their talent and don't get enough back for them. If they can't get great players back, let them walk and collect the draft picks. When a type A free agent leaves, you get the 1st round draft pick from the team taht signs him AND a sandwich pick in between the 1st and 2nd round.

Look at the DBacks. Prior to 2002, their farm system was a wasteland. In the last couple of drafts they went from one of the worst farm systems in baseball to the third best system (behind the Angels and the Dodgers). Look at their top 10 prospects*:

1. Stephen Drew, ss - 1st round
2. Conor Jackson, 1b - 1st round
3. Carlos Quentin, of - compensatory pick (19th overall)
4. Carlos Gonzales, of - undrafted Venezualan free agent (signed at 16)
5. Dustin Nippert, rhp - 15th round pick
6. Miguel Montero, c - undrafted Venezualan free agent (signed at 19)
7. Garrett Mock, rhp - 3rd round pick
8. Matt Torra, rhp - comensatory pick (31st overall)
9. Micah Owings, rhp - 3rd round pick
10. Sergio Santos, ss - 1st round pick

Two players were compensatory picks from type a free agents. The earliest any of them was taken was Drew as the 13th pick. Four of those top five should get good playing time in 2006. All project to be high impact staters and almost any team could have taken any of them.

Drew had the highest bonus of all of them and got a $4.5M contract. In his first 6 years he'll get less than $20M. That's an average of $4M/season. For a projected all star calibre player. As he gets close to free agency, they could either trade him for excellent talent, let him walk and get draft picks or resign him.

There is also the Rule V draft. The Royals snatched Andy Sisco from the Cubs last year. He was awesome.

The last and probably most important thing is that teams don't make good free agent signings. Virtually all teams are guilty of this, but some more than others. There are always underpaid gems out there looking for work. Reggie Sanders has been a damn fine starting RF and has never made more than $5M/yr. Tony Clark got paid just over $1M and posted an OPS over 1.000. The thing is that you don't do is blow your wad on the Russ Ortiz's and Eric Milton's of the world.

*This doesn't include Chris Young (aquired in the Vazquez trade) or Upton (taken with the first pick in 2005, he hasn't signed yet). Both will rate in the top 5.

MikeSty

Uhhh, look who Johnny Damon is replacing? I do believe Bernie Williams has spent his entire career with the Yankees. How about that dashing fellow playing SS?

I do understand your view, but you must also understand you are seeing things from a point of limited omniscion. You don't know every factor that lead to Johnny Damon's decision. You could assume that the primary factor was money, but you simply are not Johnny Damon and can't come to the conclusion you have.

Perhaps this is the second coming of "the curse" ... the Curse of Jonny Damon!!!

pan6467

Bernie in F/A was very close to signing with Boston if I am not mistaken until NY came in with a final offer.

NY can afford to keep Jeter. Atl. can afford to keep Chipper and Smoltz.

I used small market team players for a reason (granted STL isn't small market anymore but they were not big spenders).

I just think MLB truly has stopped caring about the fan base. It's hard to care about a team when you know that by the time the rookies have the experience to compete they'll be gone to where the money is.

Unless owners find a way to get a cap or get teams to have comparable salaries, you're going to see a lot more Fla., Montreal type moves.

New stadiums aren't a guarantee that fans will come for long periods.

The system needs changed, MLB needs to be able to market the rivalries and teams need to know that they'll have a chance to keep that all star team they developed from rookies.

It's like the Twins, the Indians, the Reds, Oakland, etc. they develop great players but by the time those players reach their prime they're gone to more money and those teams that raised those players and invested in them.

The Twins look at how they were able to compete but started losing everyone to F/A because they couldn't afford the players. The A's the pitching they raised that they had to trade or watch go (not to mention Tejeda and Giambi and McGwire), the Indians who had to watch Belle, Manny, Thome leave. The Reds will see it with Dunn, Lopez, Pena.... As will Texas with Texiera, Blalock, Young

You can't keep tearing the heart out of small market fans to keep feeding the few large markets........

And then these small market stars get attitudes of "fuck the fans" this is F/A year and I'm gone, and they sit and bitch and demand trades or cry about how they're gone.

Meanwhile teams like Boston, NY, Chicago Cubs to some degree don't have to put a penny into their farm systems because they just go out and buy whoever they need. (And farm systems cost money.)

Meanwhile, you see teams trying to generate interest like Texas did, Philly did, and they can't compete because they put all their money on 1 player just to get fans in the seats, because they were going bankrupt.

I just think what MLB does to their fans and to teams that try to field winners while making some kind of a profit is BS. They are screwing the fans and soon, the small market teams will start moving, but those are just quick fixes, because there are only so many cities and do you honestly believe cities like Portland will have big spending owners there for long periods of time? Las vegas maybe the last city that can afford a new team.... and even that would hurt Phoenix and Colorado's markets.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dylanmarsh

Yep, you are exactly right. The Sox also almost took Sosa during his prime, steroids days.

In regards to the Sox, they have been putting money into the farm system ever since the new management took over. Of course, they used part of their farm to get Beckett, but they still have 3 or 4 players in the system who will be in the majors next year.

How can Phoenix be hurt when most people here don't give two shits about the Dbacks? A good portion of the baseball fan base here are transplants from other baseball towns, including yours truly. This city is still the Suns' town and will mostly likely stay that way.

I argee with you with the turnover rate and trend that ML teams have been doing for the past 10 or 15 years. While big market teams like the Boston and NYM/Y bring in new players every year from smaller market teams, the big market fanbase grows frustrated by losing those same players down the line, just as the smaller market fanbase loses them initially. To give you a good example, many of us were really pissed off after the 2004 WS when the Sox dumped Roberts, Lowe, Pedro, et al. And it wasn't because they were good players, it was because we associate these guys with OUR team. Bringing in Jay Payton, David Wells and Matt Clement just isn't the same and a little bit of the love for our team goes away.

The Marlins proved a team can win without breaking the bank and building through trades. The Yankees, on the other hand, have dished out over $1 billion since 2000 and zero championships to show for it.

In essence, aren't we talking about the same problem? The players we grow fond of and associate with our town/team leaving? It is not just a smaller market problem.


edit: here's a good speadsheet on ML spending habits over the last 7 years: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2268047

thephuse

I doubt even small franchises cant afford to keep their marquee players.. KC managed to hold on to Sweeney for most his career.. even despite his constant injuries...

Teams like the Twins also held on to Santana(altho it was a bargain deal) and i have no doubt that they'll hold on to Torii

I dont understand quite how the A's system works.. They cant afford to keep 2 or their "big 3" pitchers, or Tejada and Giambi, but the money they gave to Chavez and LOAIZA! seem to say otherwise..

As for letting Damon go because it was too expensive is really a load of phooey.. b/c he was the catalyst to the Boston offense... He was so integral to their number one ranked offense, and they couldnt give him what they offered to now hated Renteria just one year ago?.. I really feel that Damon felt slighted that they didnt feel that he was as valuable as Renteria.. and Furcal's deal only cemented his thoughts on his value.. I really doubt the extra million or so in his contract was from the monetary need that he needed.. It was about respect..

And true, small market teams can now spend a little more due to revenue sharing.. and you dont think that people wont go to see a game if the team builds it up like the Yankees?... I mean if the Royals put out a team that featured big names and gave themselve a chance, all the baseball fans in the are wont show up?.. Big markets?.. a baseball stadium can hold only so many people.. its not as if Steinbrenner's the richest owner in baseball.. besides.. the last few teams to win have all be small budget teams neways..

__________________
b000yahed up your w000pah!!

Joygasm~!!

pan6467

As for Sweeney, he is a second tier player always was. So KC keeps one player and can't afford to keep anyone but rookies and you find that fair? You think that team will EVER have a chance to contend?

Yes, if they spend money they may, however, people want to point to how the players don't set their salaries and baseball is a business.

Baseball is a business with each team being a subsidiary. Each owner owns the team hoping to make a profit. If you pay players more than comes in you lose money, if you field only rookies you lose money, if you try to balance you lose money because the fan base doesn't show if you are out of it in May. Then you have to cut salaries and fewer fans come and the downward spiral begins.

They just have a very stupid GM. He maybe good at developing talent but he doesn't know how to handle his budget.

That may be. Or it may be the fact he didn't want to be in Boston and ownership knew this and made token offers just to appease the fans. Living in Cleveland I know how that goes.

Again, baseball is a business, no owner can afford to keep losing millions every year.

And no stadiums are a VERY small part of the Yankee income. Try their tv sports network, radio deals, merchandise sales, and so on. No other city can compete with the revenue they bring in.

Small market teams pretty much rely solely on small local tv and radio deals, and stadium income. There is never going to be a way for them, to draw the revenue in to keep their all-stars or big named players.

The White Sox was not a small budget team #9 in spending..... the BoSox had the #2 payroll, when they won...... Fla. in 2003 was in the upper half.... in 2002 Anaheim was in the top 10..... 2001 Anaheim was in the top 10.

In the last 5 years only Fla. (and have since traded away the team), Min (because of their farm system and the fact noone else in the AL Central was spending either), Oak (because of pitching that they have since had to sell) and San Diego (and that was because of a very very weak NL West) have been the only 4 teams not in the top 10 in payroll.

Meanwhile, teams like the Colorado, Cincy, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Cleveland, KC, Texas, Mil., Pit., are showing losses and cannot afford to compete. Then there are a few teams just stupid with their money, but that's because they have to overpay to get players to play there. And then they mortgage away a big part of their future because they cannot afford the player's salary and the needed parts to contend (Phi. and Balt. come to mind).

K.C., Cincy.,Pit., Cleve., are TREMENDOUS baseball towns but if they can't compete the fan base erodes as they are now. Cleve.'s is coming back but for how long?

If this system continues you'll have 26 farm teams and a base of the same 6-7 in the playoffs every year, while one may get lucky for a year.

Eventually you will kill baseball in those towns. ALready dead in Miami, and they've won 2 WS in less than 10 years but are losing money and cannot afford to stay there.

Balt. is getting shut up money as Wash. eats into their fan base. once that money is gone Balt. is going to be in serious trouble. Toronto is mortgaging alot this season and it wouldn't surprise me to see a firesale at the end of next season if they don't go anywhere, because they can't afford to keep the payroll.

Owners in the 90's overpaid for teams and the values on most are going to start dropping like rocks. (Esp. once Las Vegas has a team.)

So the system needs fixed before it's too late if it isn't already.

It's easy to love the Yankees or be a front runner and laugh at the other teams. But how would you feel if your hometown team never has a chance to compete, loses money every year so the farm system starts dying and you aren't even producing good rookies. That's what fans in most of baseball are looking at.

Eventually those fans will stop buying tickets altogether and the sport will be moving teams every season. Meanwhile, tax payers get the shaft because they are blackmailed into building new stadiums (which, I think that trend is just about over.)

So yeah if you are a Yankees fan or a Bosox fan or a fan of a team that can afford to spend it must be nice. The rest of baseball is dying.

It's very sad.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

Beane is one of the best GMs in hte game. He got a stud pitching prospect back for Hudson and Dan Haren back for Mulder.

No, The White Sox were 13th in payroll. In 2003, the Marlins were 25th in payroll and the Angels were 15th in payroll in 2002.

Things are working just fine as they are. Since 2000, in hte NL, the only teams that have not made the playoffs are:

Co, Mil, Cin, Pit, Mon, and Phi. Phi spends money, they just suck eternally. Mon has been in limbo and jerked aronud by MLB for quite a while. Co just sucks as do Cin and Pit. Mil has been building themselves up. They will be legit condenders soon.

pan6467

The complaint was who he spent money on while letting go of his "stars". I don't dey he got great payback in Calero and Haren. That shows my case in his ability to read young talent. But to get the oomph and F/A he needs to advance he spends stupidly.

I used Dylan's link on the average salary. Which showed the numbers I provided. I did not think the average salary of players and payroll #'s would differ as much.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2268047

I mean if I have 24 guys and their average is 3 mill I would believe the payroll would be $72 mill. I guess somehow there is a discrepency between the 2. I have the payroll website in my favorites (from when I commisioned my salcap baseball league) I should have just gone there.



And what of the AL? http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/hi...son/mlb_ds.jsp

2005 Anaheim 3, New York 2 || Chicago 3, Boston 0
2004 New York 3, Minnesota 1 || Boston 3, Anaheim 0
2003 New York 3, Minnesota 1 || Boston 3, Oakland 2
2002 Anaheim 3, New York 1 || Minnesota 3, Oakland 2
2001 New York 3, Oakland 2 || Seattle 3, Cleveland 2

No Balt., Toronto, Tamp Bay, K.C., Detroit, Texas.

Meanwhile, Minnesota has since sold the players they need, Cleveland could not maintain the payroll, Oakland is Oakland and was lucky they had the pitching but now that Seattle and Anaheim are spending Oakland maybe left behind. The A.L. central maybe locked now that Chicago is the only team spending. The A.L. East is pretty much a lock, because the Yankees and Bosox can get whomever they want at anytime.


So when Fla. wins then starts dismantling the team because they can't even afford the $48 mill salary that won everything, that's ok?


I just think that MLB is killing itself and the smaller franchises. Like I said, sure maybe, maybe once a year a small payroll team will be there but what's the point of winning and then dismantling everything because you can't afford the team?

I guess it would be easy to just cut the teams that can't afford to compete? Or tell the owners to go deeper into debt so that they can?
Or just say the team sucks because they cannot afford to compete.

Cincy spends they are just idiots in the front office and spend unwisely.... and Jr.'s salary has them limited also. Philly, just spent stupidly also, paying too much for Thome. But in both cases the teams were opening new stadiums and needed a marquee player to get fans. Plus, as much as I love JR he really put the Reds in a pickle by saying he only wanted to play there and so if they hadn't found the money the fans would have been pissed. Had he stayed healthy, Cincy may have been able to contend a few of those years also.

Even when middle- small market teams do spend they have to overpay just to get good players.... the superstars they have a very low chance of getting at all. JR was an aberration but even then the Reds truly could not afford him.

San Diego may have saved Cleveland by signing Giles and Hoffman, because to play in Cleveland they were going to have to be overpaid aging stars. San Diego overpaid probably but had to to keep their fan base. I doubt they will truly be able to contend past this year, and this year could be shaky. So those signings in the end will come back and haunt them.

Az. showed what happened when you try to build a team by "deferred" money. You mortgage your future and run in debt for years.

You seem to forget it was not that many years ago when Bud Selig stated there were a few teams that could not make payroll, and some of them would be surprising.

I just see that MLB over the past few years has truly been destroying the small market teams. There truly is no level playing field. They need to fix the system.

The trend just in the past 5-10 years proves this.

The White Sox are betting that they can now draw fans. It's a huge gamble, if they don't this season I look for them to firesale also. (Which dumping Thomas' salary for Thome's is either going to make them or break them.)

What's sad is you have owners that are probably giving up and just trying to get 1 or 2 name players just to get fans in the seats so they can limit their losses. Which is going to kill them because again the fan base is going to lose faith.

You just cannot keep the payroll disparity up and believe MLB is healthy and in great shape. It's dying, and probably 1/2 the teams are in extremely sad shape, financially.

The system needs fixed.

You can't keep ripping apart teams and expect your fans to keep their interest.

No other sport rips apart their teams like baseball does.

the NFL and NBA not only have sal caps but "franchise players" and the "Larry Bird Clause" and in any given year any team can compete. It's up to the GM's then to put together the team.

As much as everyone says MLB is a business, people seem to still expect owners to run deeply into the red to compete. And if they don't their fan base shrinks and they lose money anyway.

Now tell me any other business where an owner is expected to run year after year in the red?

The owners need to make money on their investment. Even if they sell for more than what they bought, they have all the years they ran in the red that they need to make up for also.

Take Cleveland, Dolan, I believe, overpaid and bought a winning team for around $300 million. He inherited a payroll that could not be sustained and has lost 10's of millions. So now in order to make money if he sold the team, he'd probably have to sell for $500 million which noone will pay for. He'd be lucky to get the $300 million back.

And I have a feeling there are a lot of teams in that situation.

Whereas, NFL and NBA teams are more stable and more attractive to owners, and can make a profit. And any team can build and compete and the fans can have playoff dreams. MLB it just isn't there anymore and won't be until they fix the system.

You cannot have the top 10 teams spending $114.7 MILLION more than the other 22 teams COMBINED and expect there to be true competition over any length of time.

Nor can you expect any of those top 10 teams to continue to spend in the red, or expect the other 22 teams to. Yet, other than the Phillies and maybe Angels the rest of the top 10 can at least maintain the current payroll, if not continue to raise it to some degree, while the rest of MLB watches their fan base decrease, their revenues get maxed and never have a chance. Except to be a 1 year wonder.

The time has come for sal caps and to do what is best for ALL the fans of baseball not just NY, Boston, and very few other cities.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

Back to today's market, things have cooled off a lot lately. My lastest excitement has been that the DBacks just signed their top pick from the 2005 draft, Justin Upton. He got a $6.1M bonus and took a minor league contract. I figured the bonus would be about $6M so I'm pretty happy with that. The big plus was that he took a minor league contract. Initially, I heard he wanted $6M AND a major league contract. If he's the star scouts project him to be (I've read things seriously comaring him to ARod and Griffey), it shouldn't make a difference but just in case he needs a little time, it gives the team a few extra years before they have to add him to the roster.

The guy has great tools, amazing power, a quick bat, plate discipline, good defense, and blistering speed (at the scouting workout he posted the fasted 60yd dash ever recorded there). With Stephen Drew on the fast track (he could debut mid to late 2006), and the other talent set to debut between now and when Upton should be on the team I'm really excited.

pan6467

The last person, I believe that was drafted and demanded to automatically go to the majors was J.D. Drew. With him being drafted first by the Phillies and them basically laughing at him for his demands and then the Cards ended up drafting him and putting him in the Majors.

I remember it caused a lot of problems with Philly and the talk of how players would resent him.


Which leads me to here:

If this kid is a brother of J. D. and Tim, or even a relative for that matter, I'd be weary of the hype. Tim was supposed to be a great pitcher for the Indians, the hype on him for years while he was in the minors was all you heard about. But then one started wondering, if he is so great why isn't he up in the Majors yet? Poor Tim didn't live up to the hype.

J.D. demandend the "automatic" Major league contract and was hyped to be the next "greatest player of all time" but has never truly lived up to the hype. A .287 lifetime BA and 142 HR in 8 seasons where he has only been able to play more than 130 3 times and more than 135 once, is not a great player. Shows me that maybe he should have played in the minors a few years to build the stamina.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

djtestudo

One thing to point out, Pan: a "major-league" contract doesn't mean you go directly to the majors; you just start on the 40-man roster with your three option years as opposed to going to the minors for the time they give you before you have to be put on the roster.

The Orioles have a potential crisis with their first-round pick from a couple years ago, Adam Loewen. He looks like he's going to be a potential ace, but because he was put on the 40-man when he signed this upcoming year will be the last he can stay in the minors before he has to go on the 25-man Orioles roster for good.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

kutulu

JD didn't go directly to the majors, he spent the rest of 1997 after the draft and part of 1998 in the minors. The only knock on JD Drew is that he is injury prone. Look beyond the BA, he has a career 134 OPS+, a carrer OPB of almost .400 and his AB/HR is equivalent to over 30 for a full season. Like him or not those are damn fine numbers.

Anyways, I was referring to Justin Upton, brother of BJ Upton from the Devil Rays. Although I'm equally excited about Stephen Drew as well. He knocked the shit out of the ball in the high A California League and then later in the Fall League. Both are hitter's leagues but his performance was way above that of almost everyone in those leagues.

pan6467

Upton maybe the real deal, but he needs the seasoning in the minors.

Stephen is JD and Tim's Brother so I wouldn't put him too high as both older brothers have never lived up to their hype.

JD was drafted in 1997 by the Phillies and sat out the year. He then was drafted in 1998 by the STL. Cardinals and signed a contract near the middle of the season, where he played in 19 AA games and 27 AAA before joining STL. in 1998 and batting .417 with 5 home runs in 37 at bats.

Using, "Injuries aside", I could say Griffey JR is still a damn good ball player.

JD has yet to truly put a string of full seasons together that are impressive. Otherwise, I'm not all that impressed by a player that averages 114 games a year (he has only accomplished that 3 times in 7 years, I didn't count his first year either). He may be a great player when he is on the field but..... he isn't on the field enough to help the team win anything. That just doesn't impress me for a guy who just turned 30. That shows me that during his 30's he'll probably be more injury prone and play fewer games. By 28-30 most players are starting to peak, and show their worth. I see Drew being an average type player that may hit for some power, but will more or less be considered an injury risk that has some power. And even then you'll have to ask if the potential power is greater than the potential risk and his asking price. If I were a GM it wouldn't be, there's healthier players with less risk and will give me his production, and probably for less money.

DJ, I know the 40 man contract but Drew in all of 1997 (where he played in St. Paul for the Northern Independent League) and most of 1998 (where he again played for St. Paul in the Northern League)after the draft refused to sign at all unless he was put on the Big League team immediately upon signing and did not have to serve a day in the minors.

LINKS:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/...auraCK9yqFCLcF

http://www.bravesbeat.com/jddrew.shtml

http://jddrewonline.cjb.net/

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

cameroncrazy822

From your mouth to God's ears.... Ryan is good but certainly isn't THAT good.

kutulu

That's why it sucks to pay for closers. No pitcher is worth $100+/inning. The current market pays relief pitchers way more per inning than starting pitchers. I'd rather spend $18M on the best starting pitcher than $10M on the best relief pitcher. You'll get 230-240 innings (75-78k/IP)from that type of starter and a max of 80 from that type of reliever (125k/IP). It just isn't smart money management. It's basically saying that Gagne 04 was worth twice as much than Clemens in their primes.

kutulu

Hell yeah, my DBacks just signed Brandon Webb to a 4 year extension with a 5th year team option. Details haven't been released but it's thought to be in the range of 20-25M. This buys out the all of his arbitration years and at least the first year of free agency (the option would have been his second FA year). Supposedly they are trying to to somthing similar with Chad Tracy. I think this is the wrong time to extend Tracy. He had an average year in 04 and what could have been a career year in 05. He's bound to regress this season and he isn't even arb eligible till 07.

pan6467

Webb is a damn good sign, congrats Kutulu.

Tracy isn't bad, I think he's a hit or miss superstar. Personally, I believe he'll be huge.

Az. definately has some young talent, and it's good to see they are working to keep key players. Since Cincy doesn't seem to even want to try and compete*, perhaps we'll (Cle.) see you in the Series soon. AZ and Cle are just a key player or 2 from truly reaching that plateau.

*(Cincy has a horrendous GM that doesn't know who to spend money on (Milton? when they could have had Millwood) or a player's worth and the talent he can get (the Casey trade).)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

I think Tracy is a fine everyday player but I don't see him being a great player.

Webb is highly underrated. A lot of htat is because of his 9-16 record in 04. However, he has an ERA+ of 135 from 03-05. According from someone at another board I post at, these are the only pitchers who did as well over that time frame:

Johan Santana
Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Roy Halladay
Carlos Zambrano
Jason Schmidt
Mark Prior
Tim Hudson
Curt Schilling
Randy Johnson
Andy Pettitte
Roy Oswalt

The only thing bad about hte Casey trade was that they waited too long to do it. They should have done it going into 2004. With Dunn, Griffey, Pena, Kearns, and Casey one has to go. Sure Kearns hasn't done great at the MLB level but he's still young and should be fine.

Anyways, is there any team screwing up worse htan the Dodgers right now? They just traded Edwin Jackson and Chuck Tiffany for Baez and Carter from hte DRays. Baez is a pretty good reliever. But Carter is nothing special. He's an average relief pitcher at best. In the NL Baez can be a very good setup man but they gave up two very good SP prospects for those two.

Jackson I can understand, the team screwed up by bringing him up in Sept 03 at only 19. He struggled the last two years but he's only 21. As a HS draftee, he wouldn't even have to be on the 40 man roster till after next season. Now he's out of options so they either play him or trade him.

Tiffany is just an awesome prospect. Trading him is damn near unforgivable. One of the best Dodger pitching prospects. He hasn't turned 21 yet and he has 279K in 211 IP. And he's a lefty. Jesus, they fire DePo and now they are on track to rape their farm system for so-so pitchers.

dylanmarsh

According to the Boston Globe, the Diamondbacks have inquired about David Wells. The deal is supposed to be Wells for Orlando Hernandez, Alex Cintron and Luis Terrero.

From Rotoworld.com:
I can't say I'd be thrilled with this trade, but, then again, is Wells even worth three guys at this point in his career? Terrero's and Cintron's OBPs are dismissal, they have little power and are average fielders. El Duque is a FA at the end of 2006, so maybe this is just a contract dump with the hopes of finding a diamond(back) in the rough?

kutulu

I heard about that, I don't understand it. It works for hte DBacks because it gets El Dookie off out hands, solves a MI logjam (they signed Easley to be a backup MI before trading for Hudson, lame move but I doubt they anticipated getting him at all), and frees an OF spot for Carlos Quentin.

It doesn't do anything for the Red Sox. Cintron is a fine player if you plan on platooning him with a good LH batter (he hit .322/.359/.463 against LHPs from 03-05) but you don't want him playing every day because he's a below average fielder and doesn't hit RHPs very well. Terrero is a toosly guy but he's never put it together for any level of success. He's the type of guy you shold be able to pick up on hte waiver wire.

Despite his age, Wells is still a good pitcher. He doens't get many K's but he doens't walk anyone and doesn't give up HR's.

pan6467

I don't know if it's the best trade. I think AZ might be able to do better.

I see your reasoning Kutulu and it has merit, however, with Wells at 43 this season and his shape he's due to falter soon. I just don't think he's worth any kind of prospect that you can get better value for.

If I were Az. I'd pick up Brian Tallet off the Indians waiver wire and see what he has. At worst you end up sending him back. The kid has some talent, he's just not a good fit for the Indians (probably because they really do not know how to treat their pitching staff). In Phoenix, the kid maybe the next Webb. An NL park that is geared more for pitchers than Cleveland's, will probably do wonders.

I'd take that gamble before Wells. In ST you can always find something if Tallet doesn't work out.

But then again, if I were truly that great at GM thinking I'd have been a GM somewhere by now.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

True, only a few pitchers are effective at that age, most of them are HOF types (which Wells is not). The thing is we're talking about two pitchers that are over 40. At least Wells has been getting over 185 IP over the last few seasons. Personally, I like Cintron, he's versitile defensively and doesn't embarass himself at the plate. However, I recognize that he has little trade value on his own.

I checked Tallet's minor league stats, descent peripheralls. The only issue with picking him up off of the waiver wire is that AZ has too many pitchers as it is. Any addition has to include a subtraction and not only would that trade get a pitcher better than El Dookie but it also frees up to spots on the 40 man roster.

dylanmarsh

Wow, pan, this has got to have you worried, if not tick you off:

pan6467

The title is more upsetting than the article. At least O"Brien leaves open talk of multi-year contracts. It sounds to me like they want to get some kind of guage as to what the player will be valued at and then open talks for multi-year deals from there.

But then again, O'Brien is just an idiot. They get the money but make stupid idiotic signings...... Wilson? Milton? Randa? trading for Ortiz? D'Angelo Jimenez? Larue (ok, he's good defensively and may become an offensive power.... but $3,000,000?????)

Getting rid of Randa, Graves, Casey did open up a lot of salary that can be used for Dunn and Pena or maybe a true pitcher or 2.

I just think O'Brien is in over his head in Cincy. And what is scary is if he is doing the Randa/Ortiz/Milton/Wilson/Jimenez deals what kind of talent evaluator is he and where is he taking the farm system, hopefully he can draft better than he can sign MLB talent.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

Theo is back with the Red Sox. His exact role has not been revealed yet but he will be a full-time contributor to the Sox and will work with Boston's new co-GMs to fill out the rest of the roster.

dylanmarsh

Hey pan, looks like our teams might be trading partners soon:

Not sure how I feel about giving up Marte and Mota to get Crisp, but the Sox seem to luck out with trades, so we shall see. Marte is an amazing talent.

pan6467

Is Marte really that good and how soon will he be Major League ready?

Coco has talent, but to be honest, I'm not sure he's ever going to live up to the hype. He'll hit for decent avg. and he is a good CF but he doesn't hit for power, he's not much of a leadoff hitter and on the bases he's not much of a threat to steal (although not many are anymore the sb is a lost art.... yet was one of the most exciting plays in baseball, that could really shift the momentum of the game).

I think the Indians would be very wise to get a strong prospect that is ready or a year away for him.

I'm just surprised Boston is the team that is after him so badly, I didn't think Boston had much in the form of young talent.

Just beware the hype, Coco's a good player but a top of the line player or a team savior...... that maybe questionable.

Lugo I think would be more valuable in the long run.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

indebut

IMO, it's a good deal for the Tribe. Mota is a great arm that will help in the bullpen. He's been a top notch set-up man in the past. Marte was considered the top prospect in the Braves farm system. He should be ready to go this year, but will probably not start reaching his true potential until next year. I have heard him compared to an Eric Chavez type of player ie/ .300 avg 20-25 hr and 100 or so RBI with a decent glove.

__________________
Serving the world one drink at a time

kutulu

RE: Marte
I'm not surprised the Sox dealt him, I don't think too many thought he'd start the year with the team. Ignore the stats he collected during his callup last season. Huge sample size issues there. Here are his stats. At first glance, they don't seems like they are all that but keep in mind a few things:
1 He was 20 and 21, respectively, going through AA and AAA so he was very young for his league
2 The AA park he played in was neutral for the league but in general the AA Southern league is heavily favored towards pitchers.
3 He hit 20 HR in less than 400 AB in AAA Richmond. That park suppresses HR's by a LOT so that means that he should have much better HR potential in a neutral or hitters park.
I don't know if he will hit for a high average but he draws a nice amount of walks and doesn't K too much. He should be ready this year or next.

Mota, meh. He looked unstoppable in 03 and 04 but since being dealt to Florida he hasn't been the same. His H/9 and BB/9 were both higher than expected for him last season so he should be better. He still gets descent K's.

Crisp. I think the Sox are better off going for Crisp than they would have been if they had resigned Damon. IMO, Damon is WAY overrated and could be an albatross for the Yankees. Crisp will equal Damon at the plate but is he capable of taking CF full-time? I haven't seen him play much so I don't know.

pan6467

It'll be an interesting trade, especially if the Indians did in fact get Jason Micheals from Philly.

I hate to see Betancourt go.... Rhodes won't be so bad to see leave though.

I think it was extremely wise to trade CoCo while his stock is high. He maybe a superstar or he maybe an average player..... I see him as average if that. Maybe a good fielder but offensively..... iffy.

Good luck Sox fans and I hope he is your next Johnny Damon.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

That's exactly it, unless the team plans on signing someone long term they need to trade high. That means at least 1-2 years before free agency.

pan6467

Damn you guys are getting Riske too?????????

WTF is Shap doing? I guess he must believe Cabrera can fill in for Riske (putting a kid in like that he can either live up to his great promise and ability or fry because of the pressure) and Mota will replace Rhodes (that won't be hard to do and he is younger).

Anyone know about Shoppach?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dylanmarsh

Shoppach's been one of the top Sox prospects for a while, now. He was almost traded to Colorado in a deal for Larry Biggie last season but the Sox backed out. My guess is that the Sox are selling high with him as he most likely see time behind the plate with Varitek there.

Kelly strikes out a lot and draws few walks. He's only 25, so maybe there is time for him to become the next Rick Cerone?

http://www.soxprospects.com/players/shoppach-kelly.htm

pan6467

He's no Sandy Alomar but you're right a Rick Cerone which would still be nice.

To me, it sounds like the Tribe maybe able to use him as C and turn Victor into the needed 1B. That would prolong Victor's career by a couple of years easily (saves the knees and wear and tear caused by the position). And Victor maybe more offensively productive.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like Shoppach might be the true gem of the trade or the biggest bust.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"