Wow.....the White Sox REALLY just got away with one there........... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Borla · 10-12-2005, 07:42 PM

...................anyone see the finish to Game 2 of the ALCS?

I'm a diehard ChiSox fan. But Josh Paul did NOT drop that ball that allowed Pierzynski to get to first base.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the call went the way it did, and EVERY game has a few calls that could go either way. Who gets the breaks is often a big factor in the victor of the game, but they really got some help there. Who knows, maybe they would've won the game anyway, but I'd be VERY perturbed if I was an Angels fan right now.

laconic1 · 10-12-2005, 08:02 PM

I turned on the game right before that. I don't care one way or another about who wins but when it happened I hoped the next batter would just hit a fly ball or strike out, or something that wouldn't alter the outcome of the game. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way.

NbCal · 10-12-2005, 08:18 PM

One of the worst calls I have seen in a while. Fortunately Chicago won't survive in Anaheim.

dtheriault · 10-12-2005, 09:20 PM

Angels fan here and it's a good thing that call wasn't made in Anaheim. I've been very impressed watching the whitesox: great pitching- a few defensive errors, but you can see why they've made it so far. This might be a 7 game series cause I can see the whitesox winning at least one in Anaheim.

Borla · 10-13-2005, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtheriault

Angels fan here and it's a good thing that call wasn't made in Anaheim. I've been very impressed watching the whitesox: great pitching- a few defensive errors, but you can see why they've made it so far. This might be a 7 game series cause I can see the whitesox winning at least one in Anaheim.

As a White Sox fan I was rooting for the Yankees last series because I had the feeling the Angels would be harder to beat.

The two teams are quite similar in their styles. I think it's going to come down to whose pitching holds up, and who plays consistently in the field and on the basepaths.

stevo · 10-13-2005, 08:34 AM

So if the white sox go on to win the WS does this call get dubbed the "blue sox scandle"???

Borla · 10-13-2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

So if the white sox go on to win the WS does this call get dubbed the "blue sox scandle"???

I think if the Sox go on to win in convincing fashion, this call isn't a HUGE deal. If it drags out into seven games, then I don't think you can sweep it under the rug.

What has to be remembered is that even if the ball was cleanly caught (I admit it appears it was, of the 3-4 angles I saw it from, only one is even inconclusive, and barely at that), all it would've meant is that the game was going on into the 10th inning. The White Sox had an incredible record this year in one and two run games, so it's very possible they would've won anyway.

AVoiceOfReason · 10-13-2005, 08:40 AM

I thought Mike Scoicia (sp) was very calm and mature about the whole thing after the game was over.

The question I have, and I suspect some on ESPN or Fox will answer for me, is what signal did the umpire behind the plate give all evening for a strikeout, and did he yell "yer out!" or something like that. No question he gave the missed swing (no contact with the ball) signal and pulled his hand up to signal a strike. But what did he do when he called someone "out?"

Borla · 10-13-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason

I thought Mike Scoicia (sp) was very calm and mature about the whole thing after the game was over.

The question I have, and I suspect some on ESPN or Fox will answer for me, is what signal did the umpire behind the plate give all evening for a strikeout, and did he yell "yer out!" or something like that. No question he gave the missed swing (no contact with the ball) signal and pulled his hand up to signal a strike. But what did he do when he called someone "out?"

The umpire himself claims it was his "normal strike" motion. I heard on the Dan Patrick show today on the radio that earlier in the game there were actually two complaints made that the umpire was being overly demonstartive with his strike calls, and they looked like out calls. So who is to say?

The way I see it, right call or wrong call by the ump, Josh Paul HAS to cover himself and toss that ball to first, or tag the batter. It's very common for a catcher, on any ball in the dirt that is called strike three, to do just that.

aswo · 10-13-2005, 10:28 AM

Although the call was coplete bullshit, the white sox wont make it out of anahiem

nein991 · 10-13-2005, 12:33 PM

Bad call by the umpire; hopefully it won't influence the outcome of the series. I believe the Angels will win at least 2 of 3 in Anaheim.

maximusveritas · 10-13-2005, 02:12 PM

The umpire made the hand signal that looked like he was calling the batter out, but he didn't actually call him out verbally. That's why AJ ran in the first place. Josh Paul didn't have the experience to know what to do in that situation, while AJ did.
It's only a big deal because of the circumstances, but calls are blown like that all the time. It was a judgement call and a tough one, but the umpire made it and the Angels have to live with it. I think the White Sox will win this in 6 and it'll be forgotten.

boom29 · 10-13-2005, 02:25 PM

I agree that Josh Paul probably should have tagged him if he was uncertain whether it was in the dirt or not. However, he was so sure he caught the ball that he didn't even think twice about it. That type of play is so instinctive that we would have seen hesitation on his part if he was at all unsure of whether he had caught the ball cleanly or not. Even AJ Pr? first move was towards the dugout. It was the fact that the umpire was undecisive that made him attempt running to first. Had the umpire called him out right away (besides the gestures) AJ would have keep walking back to the dugout...and we'd be in the 18th inning right about now.

spongy · 10-13-2005, 10:44 PM

Paul has said and AJ confirmed, that umps usually say "no catch, no catch" yet that wasn't said this time.

I believe I heard AJ say tonight that he thought it was a bad call, from a baseball fan's perspective, but he liked it as a Sox player.

Borla · 10-14-2005, 05:23 AM

Here is an interesting take from Ryan Sandberg. He basically lays the majority of the blame at the feet of Josh Paul.

Quote:

Many people are pointing fingers at home plate umpire Doug Eddings for making a bad call on A.J. Pierzynski's swinging third strike. The call will forever be debated – Did Eddings' closed fist mean strike three (that was dropped) or did it mean a strikeout?

Either way, with 40,000 Sox fans screaming, Josh Paul can't take anything for granted.

The Los Angeles Angels catcher should have checked with Eddings and made sure what the call was. Instead of trying to "sell" the inning-ending strikeout by rolling the ball back to the mound, Paul should have taken the extra second to either tag out Pierzynski or make the throw to first base.

It's impossible for any home plate umpire to make a call on a low pitch like that. He'll wait to see what develops afterward – whether the catcher asks him if he caught the ball, or tags the batter out, or steps out and throws to first. There's usually communication between the catcher and umpire. In this case, none of the above was done by Paul, who assumed Pierzynski had struck out.

I learned as a rookie not to be an umpire while I was playing. More often than not, if I tossed my bat to the dugout on a pitch that I thought was ball four, I would hear the umpire call a strike before I could leave the batter's box.

ADVERTISEMENT

Also, while covering second base on steal attempts, we are told to "sell" the out by trying to convince the ump that we made the tag. We pop up and act like we're getting ready to throw the ball around the horn, or if there are two outs, we start running toward the dugout. However, in any of those cases, I would never just roll the ball back to the pitcher's mound. I would keep the ball in my glove and show that I got the out.

You can blame Eddings for his miscommunication, but it is also part of Paul's responsibility to understand what call is being made. He can't take a chance in that situation. Even if it was a blown call by the umpire, Paul showed poor basic fundamentals.

This controversy will be talked about until Game 3 begins Friday. Then, all will be forgotten – at least from the players' perspective. The Angels understand that human error is part of the game. That's one of the things that makes baseball so perfect.

The Angels are professionals and led by one of baseball's best managers, Mike Scioscia, who handled Wednesday night's controversy brilliantly. He was very frustrated, but he understood that any derogatory comments toward the umpires would do nothing but cause more controversy. He realized that his team could've done more to win that game.

That makes the SECOND former White Sox player to make a crucial error that helped give them a chance for the win in Game Two of a playoff series this year.

blakngold4 · 10-14-2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

I think if the Sox go on to win in convincing fashion, this call isn't a HUGE deal. If it drags out into seven games, then I don't think you can sweep it under the rug.

two words: Jeff Maier. Kid ruins a playoff game, O's implode and don't win again.

Given how obscenely close the first two games were with CHI's two BEST pitchers on the hill, if the Angels get run out of their own building, I'm saying that they couldn't shake what happened in game 2.

Borla · 10-14-2005, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakngold4

two words: Jeff Maier. Kid ruins a playoff game, O's implode and don't win again.

Given how obscenely close the first two games were with CHI's two BEST pitchers on the hill, if the Angels get run out of their own building, I'm saying that they couldn't shake what happened in game 2.

If they can't shake it, then shame on them IMO. A big part of the game is mental, and a big part of the game is not letting yourself be in a situation where one inconclusive play or call can cost you everything.

djtestudo · 10-14-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakngold4

two words: Jeff Maier. Kid ruins a playoff game, O's implode and don't win again.

You will burn in Hell for that reference...

Borla · 10-15-2005, 11:41 AM

I would say that last night the White Sox showed what they were made of!!

Here's hoping they continue on that path.

Borla · 10-15-2005, 06:45 PM

Game Four....................bottom of the eighth.............ChiSox are up 8-2...........which would give them a 3-1 lead in the series.................looks like I'll be trying to find the money for World Series tickets next week.

SecretMethod70 · 10-17-2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakngold4

two words: Jeff Maier. Kid ruins a playoff game, O's implode and don't win again.

Given how obscenely close the first two games were with CHI's two BEST pitchers on the hill, if the Angels get run out of their own building, I'm saying that they couldn't shake what happened in game 2.

As much as I'd like to say that's not what happened, being a Chicago resident and wanting the White Sox to win the World Series and such, I am forced to agree that it's a possibility, being a Chicago resident who prefers the Cubs and believes that's what happened with Steve Bartman

Cross-Over · 10-17-2005, 04:06 PM

Bad calls plagued the Angels this series. In game 4, there was clearly catcher interference by A.J Pierszynski during Finley's at bat. There was a man on third and first with one out when the occurred. Finley grounded into a double play, clearly a blown call in a great situation for LAA.

Another blown call was when Podsednik was clearly picked off, but called safe. The extra out led to a run for the White Sox.

Those situations and another about Konerko's checked swing are discussed in THIS article.

It is not the White Sox fault, they played good baseball regardless. However, the Angels did not get a fair shake, time and time again.

goddfather40 · 10-17-2005, 08:12 PM

Yeah, there were some bullshit calls, but the Angels got beat by the better team, plain and simple. The anemic offense reared it's ugly head once and again and it was the reason why the Angels lost. Damn. Good luck to the White Sox.

On a tangent, has anyone ever had to go through a postseason with their team while in a foreign country? I just got back from Hong Kong and mainland China this weekend after a 10 day business trip. Fortunately every game was on the Hong Kong ESPN, even the FOX games. Pretty weird to watch the games live at 8AM. Nobody really appreciated what I was going through there. Very few baseball fans.

By the way, doesn't tonight's game 5 of the NLCS remind everyone of game 5 of the '86 ALCS? A team (Angels) playing at home, one out away from their first, long-awaited pennant and then their closer gives up a go-ahead home run and they lose. Ouch. I don't think the Astros recover from this.

10-12-2005, 07:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
Borla Junkie	Wow.....the White Sox REALLY just got away with one there........... ...................anyone see the finish to Game 2 of the ALCS? I'm a diehard ChiSox fan. But Josh Paul did NOT drop that ball that allowed Pierzynski to get to first base. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the call went the way it did, and EVERY game has a few calls that could go either way. Who gets the breaks is often a big factor in the victor of the game, but they really got some help there. Who knows, maybe they would've won the game anyway, but I'd be VERY perturbed if I was an Angels fan right now. __________________ Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde!!!!

10-12-2005, 09:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
dtheriault Psycho Location: maybe utah	Angels fan here and it's a good thing that call wasn't made in Anaheim. I've been very impressed watching the whitesox: great pitching- a few defensive errors, but you can see why they've made it so far. This might be a 7 game series cause I can see the whitesox winning at least one in Anaheim. __________________ "Remember, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -Homer Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

10-13-2005, 08:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	So if the white sox go on to win the WS does this call get dubbed the "blue sox scandle"??? __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

10-13-2005, 08:40 AM	#8 (permalink)
AVoiceOfReason Psycho Location: Greenwood, Arkansas	I thought Mike Scoicia (sp) was very calm and mature about the whole thing after the game was over. The question I have, and I suspect some on ESPN or Fox will answer for me, is what signal did the umpire behind the plate give all evening for a strikeout, and did he yell "yer out!" or something like that. No question he gave the missed swing (no contact with the ball) signal and pulled his hand up to signal a strike. But what did he do when he called someone "out?" __________________ AVOR A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

10-13-2005, 10:28 AM	#10 (permalink)
aswo Crazy	Although the call was coplete bullshit, the white sox wont make it out of anahiem __________________ People who love people

10-12-2005, 08:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
laconic1 Junkie	I turned on the game right before that. I don't care one way or another about who wins but when it happened I hoped the next batter would just hit a fly ball or strike out, or something that wouldn't alter the outcome of the game. Unfortunately it didn't work out that way.

10-12-2005, 08:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
NbCal Tilted Location: Newport Beach, CA	One of the worst calls I have seen in a while. Fortunately Chicago won't survive in Anaheim.

10-13-2005, 12:33 PM	#11 (permalink)
nein991 Junkie	Bad call by the umpire; hopefully it won't influence the outcome of the series. I believe the Angels will win at least 2 of 3 in Anaheim.

10-13-2005, 02:12 PM	#12 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	The umpire made the hand signal that looked like he was calling the batter out, but he didn't actually call him out verbally. That's why AJ ran in the first place. Josh Paul didn't have the experience to know what to do in that situation, while AJ did. It's only a big deal because of the circumstances, but calls are blown like that all the time. It was a judgement call and a tough one, but the umpire made it and the Angels have to live with it. I think the White Sox will win this in 6 and it'll be forgotten.

10-13-2005, 02:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
boom29 Insane	I agree that Josh Paul probably should have tagged him if he was uncertain whether it was in the dirt or not. However, he was so sure he caught the ball that he didn't even think twice about it. That type of play is so instinctive that we would have seen hesitation on his part if he was at all unsure of whether he had caught the ball cleanly or not. Even AJ Pr? first move was towards the dugout. It was the fact that the umpire was undecisive that made him attempt running to first. Had the umpire called him out right away (besides the gestures) AJ would have keep walking back to the dugout...and we'd be in the 18th inning right about now.

10-13-2005, 10:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
spongy Psycho	Paul has said and AJ confirmed, that umps usually say "no catch, no catch" yet that wasn't said this time. I believe I heard AJ say tonight that he thought it was a bad call, from a baseball fan's perspective, but he liked it as a Sox player. __________________ The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed. Stephen King

10-15-2005, 11:41 AM	#19 (permalink)
Borla Junkie	I would say that last night the White Sox showed what they were made of!! Here's hoping they continue on that path. __________________ Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde!!!!

10-15-2005, 06:45 PM	#20 (permalink)
Borla Junkie	Game Four....................bottom of the eighth.............ChiSox are up 8-2...........which would give them a 3-1 lead in the series.................looks like I'll be trying to find the money for World Series tickets next week. __________________ Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde!!!!

10-17-2005, 04:06 PM	#22 (permalink)
Cross-Over Psycho	Bad calls plagued the Angels this series. In game 4, there was clearly catcher interference by A.J Pierszynski during Finley's at bat. There was a man on third and first with one out when the occurred. Finley grounded into a double play, clearly a blown call in a great situation for LAA. Another blown call was when Podsednik was clearly picked off, but called safe. The extra out led to a run for the White Sox. Those situations and another about Konerko's checked swing are discussed in THIS article. It is not the White Sox fault, they played good baseball regardless. However, the Angels did not get a fair shake, time and time again.

10-17-2005, 08:12 PM	#23 (permalink)
goddfather40 Llama Location: Cali-for-nye-a	Yeah, there were some bullshit calls, but the Angels got beat by the better team, plain and simple. The anemic offense reared it's ugly head once and again and it was the reason why the Angels lost. Damn. Good luck to the White Sox. On a tangent, has anyone ever had to go through a postseason with their team while in a foreign country? I just got back from Hong Kong and mainland China this weekend after a 10 day business trip. Fortunately every game was on the Hong Kong ESPN, even the FOX games. Pretty weird to watch the games live at 8AM. Nobody really appreciated what I was going through there. Very few baseball fans. By the way, doesn't tonight's game 5 of the NLCS remind everyone of game 5 of the '86 ALCS? A team (Angels) playing at home, one out away from their first, long-awaited pennant and then their closer gives up a go-ahead home run and they lose. Ouch. I don't think the Astros recover from this. __________________ My name is goddfather40 and I approved this message. I got ho's and I got bitches, In C++ I branch with switches -MC Plus+ Last edited by goddfather40; 10-17-2005 at 08:14 PM..