NCAA Bans Native American Mascots in Bowl games and Post season - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MontanaXVI · 08-06-2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

The NCAA announcement Friday that it will ban the use of American Indian mascots and logos by sports teams during postseason NCAA tournaments, but not in the regular season or in major bowl games, has created equal parts confusion and controversy.

The rule, effective Aug. 1, 2008, prohibits displays of "hostile or abusive" references on uniforms of teams, cheerleaders and bands during a postseason NCAA tournament. Also, beginning Feb. 1, 2006, institutions with "hostile or abusive" mascots or imagery are prohibited from hosting any NCAA championship competition.

Some schools are upset they will no longer be able to use American Indian mascots, and that includes Florida State, which notes its use of the Seminole mascot is supported by the Seminole Tribe. Meanwhile, some American Indian leaders claim the ban does not go far enough.

There is some confusion in the fact that some Indian mascot references are not deemed "hostile or abusive," and, therefore, can be kept. The more perplexing issue is the application of the rule: It does not apply to the regular season, and does not apply to Division I-A football bowl games.

"It's a step in the right direction, but just an incremental step," said Dr. Joely De La Torre, president of Naqmayam Communication, a Native American public relations agency, "Why just the postseason? They're just skirting the issue. This would not happen in the African American community or the Asian American community or the Jewish community."

The NCAA said it does not have the authority to legislate school's actions during the regular season.

"What each institution decides to do is really its own business" outside of NCAA championship events, said Walter Harrison, the president of the University of Hartford and chairman of the NCAA executive committee.

The NCAA also said Division I-A bowl games are out of its jurisdiction in regard to this rule, although the NCAA does legislate what sponsorship logos bowl games can display.

"The reason is, the NCAA does not run the bowls, as we do some other postseason tournaments," NCAA spokesman Erik Christianson said.

Some bowl directors were surprised their games are not affected by the new rule.

"We are governed by NCAA rules and we are licensed by the NCAA, so I don't know why it doesn't apply to us," Rose Bowl executive director Mitch Dorger said. "The NCAA doesn't conduct the game, but there are some inconsistencies here."

Gary Cavalli, executive director of the Emerald Bowl in San Francisco, says he finds the application "a little curious."

The Emerald Bowl, which this season matches teams from the Pac-10 and Mountain West Conference, could have a game this year that includes the Utah Utes, one of the 18 institutions affected by the NCAA ruling. The rule is not in effect this year anyway, and Cavalli said he has not yet decided whether he would observe the NCAA ban even if it is not enforced for bowls. "But we might consider it," he said.

Dorger wasn't prepared to guess whether the Rose Bowl might ban teams who use American Indian mascots either. The Rose Bowl has had teams with such mascots in the past, however: Stanford was called the Indians when it won the Rose Bowls following the 1970 and 1971 seasons.

It was soon after the second Rose Bowl victory that a group of 55 American Indian students at Stanford protested the use of the mascot, and Richard Lyman, then Stanford's president, decided to drop the Indians mascot in 1972, 42 years after it had been officially accepted.

"Back when we did this," said Lyman, now retired and living in Palo Alto, "we thought it was the wave of the future. We never thought that 35 years later, there would still be teams named Indians and Braves."

Lyman was not impressed with the way the NCAA is legislating the change now.

"It's a little silly," he said. "If you're going to do it, why not do it in a sweeping way. I'm bemused. It seems like a bumbling step in the right direction."

The Braves of North Carolina-Pembroke will be exempted, according to the Associated Press, because the school has historically had a high percentage of students, more than 20 percent, who are American Indians.

Regarding Florida State's point that the Seminole Tribe of Florida has given the university permission to continue using "Seminoles," the NCAA told the Associated Press that other Seminole tribes are not supportive.

"I intend to pursue all legal avenues to ensure that this unacceptable decision is overturned," Florida State president T.K. Wetherell said in a statement, "and that this university will forever be associated with the 'unconquered' spirit of the Seminole Tribe of Florida."
"Hostile or abusive"

The NCAA banned some teams from displaying American Indian names and symbols during NCAA tournaments and playoffs. Here is the NCAA's list of schools with mascots deemed "hostile or abusive":

Braves: Alcorn State (Miss.), Bradley (Ind.), Chowan (N.C.)

Indians: Catawba (N.C.), Midwestern State (Kan.), Indiana-Pennsylvania, Arkansas State, Louisiana-Monroe, McMurry (Texas), Newberry (S.C.)

Other: Central Michigan (Chippewas); Florida State (Seminoles); Utah (Utes); Carthage, Wis. (Redmen); Illinois (Illini); Mississippi College (Choctaws); North Dakota (Fighting Sioux); Southeastern Oklahoma State (Savages)

Maybe I missed a big ongoing battle or something that has been making serious headlines for them to do this, but come on. Names or symbols deemedhostile or abusive? What about a team with a Bulldog mascot, what if the dog bites you?

Being an FSU 'Noles fan I find this a bit upsetting especially given the fact that they have the OK of the Seminole people to use the mascot they have.

I don't know and I guess not being a Native American I cannot see the real harm in it, unless the mascot is in any way demeaning or defamatory to these native people.

Glory's Sun · 08-09-2005, 06:17 AM

Ok, I just saw this and I'm pretty pissed. I'm a FSU fan and I just can't think of where this would go now. I can't imagine a game without the chant and chop. If the Seminole tribe gave the ok on the matter, then the NCAA needs to stand down or make an exemption.

This PC bullshit is just crazy. I think I'd rather have a team using my heritage as a mascot than have no-one using it and everyone forgetting about it altogether.

:shrug:

pan6467 · 08-09-2005, 06:30 AM

What about Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish"???????

Where and when does all this end? When people say enough and push back.

djtestudo · 08-09-2005, 11:17 AM

The use of the word "terrapin" is an insult to the glorious and proad history and ancestorage of the snapping turtle!

And worse, they resigned Myles Brand for another TWO YEARS! He makes Bud Selig look like David Stern.

Ustwo · 08-09-2005, 11:35 AM

I graduated from UoI Illinois.

The Illini Indians were basically wiped out by the other Indian tribes of Illinois before white settlement even began.

The costume was donated to the University by an Indian tribe.

They NCAA can go to hell.

BigBen · 08-09-2005, 01:16 PM

If one person finds a name offensive, what can be done? Change the name, change the person's view, or ignore the person.

If a group of people share the same offended view, what should be done? Change the name, change the group's view, or ignore the group.

Having said that, I think that the Washington Niggaz or the Louisville Kikes would have trouble on their road games...

If a minority group finds the name offending, why not change it? Can you TFP'ers take the traditional debating technique of adopting the opposing viewpoint and argue for it?

If my school's name is the "Braves" and the NCAA wants me to change it to the "Minotaurs", I don't have a problem with that. I think that team names are less relevant than the players, the coaches and the spirit of the game.

What should happen is that monetary incentives should be set up where all offended people pay a levy to buy the rights to that name (and trademark). Win-Win, if you ask me. Which you didn't. But I'll tell you anyway.

Maybe the government could get involved and support scholarships for teams that change their team names. Would you support that initiative, if it was someone else's money, and not a "waste of my hard-earned tax dollars"? What if Bill Gates gave 50 Million dollars to change the name?

My real question: What is it worth for you to keep this cherished name, tradition and icon?
What is it worth to the opponents to have the name changed?

Surely there must be an economic answer to this question... You do live in a capitalist society afterall.

MontanaXVI · 08-09-2005, 01:48 PM

Ben, many good valid points.

My issue, howeverm is with the FSU 'Noles which like someone above happen to be my favorite college football team. The Tallahassee Seminole tribes gave the University their permission to use that as their logo/mascot and are happy to have that image associated along with higher learning (I know you usually do not hear FSU and higher learning in the same sentence).

Same goes for the Utah Utes, the local tribes love that they are honored and worshipped by so many.

So what right does the NCAA have. besides being the governing body to moderate something like this? I could see them stepping in on it if a tribe was upset or felt offended by a certain mascot or nickname, but that is just not the case. Also the way I understand the rule is that while the NCAA set this ban it holds no merit during the regular season and only applies to NCAA sanctioned events such as bowl games or the NCAA March Madness tournament to name a few.

I am losing focus and ranting now, but it was a few years back I believe that the Utes even had the idea of changing their mascot or logo from the Utes on their jersey to something else, they presented this idea to the Ute tribal leaders who said they did not feel well about the interpretation of the new logo so the university left it alone. This should be up to the school and the tribe they are representing.

MikeSty · 08-09-2005, 01:53 PM

Sigh, crazy people in this world :-/

Next it'll spread to the majors, and all of a sudden, no more smiling Cleveland Indian

maleficent · 08-09-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeSty

Sigh, crazy people in this world :-/

Next it'll spread to the majors, and all of a sudden, no more smiling Cleveland Indian

or Atlanta Braves... while were at it - the Yankees should change thier name because Yankee can be an insult - maybne the braves could change their name tothe Atlanta Rednecks to balance out the Yankees

(that's a joke)

People really need to pick their battles... this is such a stupid one -- why not worry about the quality of education that the athletes on these teams are getting rather than the mascot that they are playing under...

As for The Fighting Irish? Talking with two alum a few weeks back (and my dad - who's major disappointment in life was that ididn't go there) from their cold dead hands they will take the leprochaun mascot - the alumni and their checkbooks at ND have a lot of power... I seriously doubt that name would ever change... (Although they might consider it for a winning football team)

vox_rox · 08-09-2005, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

What about Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish"???????

Where and when does all this end? When people say enough and push back.

This is the first thing that came to mind when I was reading this. If it's not okay to use the name "seminole" with the tribes permission, and even in a positive light, why is it okay to render all Irish as drunk, fighting midgets? Is this not abusive? Or hostile?

What if they put bagel eating jews on a team from New York? My gawd, there'd be howls of protests, and maybe rightfully so. But really, how far do you go to sanitize the nation?

I have no answers, bu tI would statr by asking schools to use there own common sense and encourage them to use other team names more in keeping with the spirit of sport. IF, then, the teams still use their native team names, like I'm sure the Seminoles would, then fine. Derogatory names like Redmen certainly seem a little out of place in the 21st century. What the hell are they thinking.

Just like the redskins in NFL football, time for a change methinks.

Peace,

Pierre

JustJess · 08-10-2005, 09:02 AM

I have to agree with the quote from Jeb Bush (I can't believe I'm saying this):

Quote:

"I think it's offensive to native Americans ... the Seminole Indian tribe who support the traditions of FSU," Bush said on his way into a Cabinet meeting. "I think they insult those people by telling them, 'No, no, you're not smart enough to understand this. You should be feeling really horrible about this.' It's ridiculous."

Who the hell is the NCAA to tell the Seminoles what should offend them?
Cripes.

stevo · 08-11-2005, 10:29 AM

Complete absurdity. I could go on and on about this, but I read an article today that just about sums up the rediculousness of the whole thing. What is this PC Bullshit?

Quote:

Racist Paternalism at the NCAA
By Andrew Cline
Published 8/10/2005 12:07:36 AM

The National Collegiate Athletic Association's executive committee -- comprised of 14 white men, two white women, and three black men -- decided last week that 18 university and college nicknames were "hostile and abusive" to Indians. The nicknames and mascots may not be displayed on any team uniform at any NCAA postseason tournament starting next February. It was a new milestone in condescending liberal racism.

The committee members were the sole arbiters of what was "hostile and abusive" and what was not. Among those not allowed a say in the matter were, ahem, Indians.

After NCAA busybodies spent time snooping around Tallahassee, Florida, to gather evidence for their case against Florida State's use of the Seminoles nickname, the Seminole Tribal Council voted in April -- unanimously -- to affirm the tribe's support for the university's nickname and mascot. Nonetheless, come August the NCAA decreed FSU's use of the name "hostile and abusive." Those silly Indians, they obviously don't know what's good for them.

Also banned is the nickname of the University of Illinois -- the Illini. "Illini" was the name of the tribal confederation that once ruled the land now called Illinois. It is the root word for the state name and the name of its people, Illinoians. It is hard to see hostility in a name the white people use to describe themselves, but the NCAA sees it.

University of Illinois basketball jerseys say "Illinois," not "Illini." In its eternal wisdom, the executive committee will allow jerseys printed with "Illinois," but not ones printed with "Illini." What will committee members do when they learn that "Illinois" is French for "Illini"?

Allowing jerseys to bear the French name for the Illini tribal confederation, but not the name the confederation gave itself, is the logical end point of multicultural sensitivity. One wonders whether the University of Illinois student newspaper -- The Illini -- will be allowed to cover future NCAA tournaments.

Indiana University, whose athletic teams are called "Hoosiers," escaped the NCAA's nickname ban. But Indiana's jerseys don't say "Hoosiers." They say "Indiana," which means "Land of Indians."

By the way, the NCAA is headquartered in Indianapolis -- "City of the Land of Indians." How embarrassing.

The NCAA has banned the University of North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux" nickname. "Sioux" is the name for a confederation of smaller tribes, including the Dakota. If UND removes the "hostile and abusive" "Sioux" name from its jerseys and replaces it with "North Dakota," it will still have a tribal name on its jerseys. Obviously, the NCAA executives have not thought their plan through.

The University of Oklahama's football team wears jerseys sporting the university's team nickname: Sooners. Sooners were people who illegally occupied land confiscated from the Indians. (They got there "sooner" than the law allowed.) The university's basketball team wears jerseys bearing the state name: Oklahoma. "Oklahoma" is Choctaw for "red people." Both of these names are OK, while "Seminoles," approved by the tribe, is banned. Go figure.

A thought to consider: If Cherokee Parks becomes a college basketball coach, or Dakota Fanning plays a varsity sport in 2012, will announcers be permitted to mention their names on air?

A college referee I know wonders whether Billy Packer and Greg Gumbel will be allowed to say "Fighting Sioux" or "Seminoles." Play-by-play certainly will be clumsy if nicknames cannot be used.

All of this nonsense is born of the notion that when white people adopt the name and likeness of red people, it is an act of racism, an assertion of racial or tribal superiority. After all, the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, a historically Indian institution, was allowed to keep its "Braves" nickname. Yet white people usually are not being condescending by adopting Indian names or mascots.

Athletic teams wish to associate themselves with qualities valued on the field of play: courage, valor, strength, endurance, bravery. Hence they choose names and mascots they believe emblematic of those qualities: Sioux, Vikings, Seminoles, Celtics, Bears, Tigers, Yankees, Pirates, etc. No one names his team the Pigeons.

To the NCAA executive committee, unencumbered by reality, the actual intent behind the nickname's adoption does not matter. All that matters is how others might perceive it.

The best reaction to this fear of offense, of course, is to let individual institutions work out these disagreements on their own. Instead, the paternalism that comes from intellectual superiority has overruled common sense. And so 19 white and black university and college executives have told countless Indians what is best for them. It is the very definition of racist paternalism.

I hope each of the 18 institutions affected by this policy makes every NCAA tournament next year. And I hope they wear their uniforms, unaltered, and force the NCAA to drag their players off the courts, fields, tracks and mats. Bureaucratic bullying is easy when it can be done with the stroke of a pen. When it has to be backed up by brute force, it becomes a lot more difficult to justify.

Andrew Cline is editorial page editor of the New Hampshire Union Leader.

08-09-2005, 06:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	What about Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish"??????? Where and when does all this end? When people say enough and push back. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

08-09-2005, 11:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	The use of the word "terrapin" is an insult to the glorious and proad history and ancestorage of the snapping turtle! And worse, they resigned Myles Brand for another TWO YEARS! He makes Bud Selig look like David Stern. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

08-09-2005, 11:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I graduated from UoI Illinois. The Illini Indians were basically wiped out by the other Indian tribes of Illinois before white settlement even began. The costume was donated to the University by an Indian tribe. They NCAA can go to hell. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

08-09-2005, 01:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	If one person finds a name offensive, what can be done? Change the name, change the person's view, or ignore the person. If a group of people share the same offended view, what should be done? Change the name, change the group's view, or ignore the group. Having said that, I think that the Washington Niggaz or the Louisville Kikes would have trouble on their road games... If a minority group finds the name offending, why not change it? Can you TFP'ers take the traditional debating technique of adopting the opposing viewpoint and argue for it? If my school's name is the "Braves" and the NCAA wants me to change it to the "Minotaurs", I don't have a problem with that. I think that team names are less relevant than the players, the coaches and the spirit of the game. What should happen is that monetary incentives should be set up where all offended people pay a levy to buy the rights to that name (and trademark). Win-Win, if you ask me. Which you didn't. But I'll tell you anyway. Maybe the government could get involved and support scholarships for teams that change their team names. Would you support that initiative, if it was someone else's money, and not a "waste of my hard-earned tax dollars"? What if Bill Gates gave 50 Million dollars to change the name? My real question: What is it worth for you to keep this cherished name, tradition and icon? What is it worth to the opponents to have the name changed? Surely there must be an economic answer to this question... You do live in a capitalist society afterall. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-09-2005, 01:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
MontanaXVI Junkie Location: Go A's!!!!	Ben, many good valid points. My issue, howeverm is with the FSU 'Noles which like someone above happen to be my favorite college football team. The Tallahassee Seminole tribes gave the University their permission to use that as their logo/mascot and are happy to have that image associated along with higher learning (I know you usually do not hear FSU and higher learning in the same sentence). Same goes for the Utah Utes, the local tribes love that they are honored and worshipped by so many. So what right does the NCAA have. besides being the governing body to moderate something like this? I could see them stepping in on it if a tribe was upset or felt offended by a certain mascot or nickname, but that is just not the case. Also the way I understand the rule is that while the NCAA set this ban it holds no merit during the regular season and only applies to NCAA sanctioned events such as bowl games or the NCAA March Madness tournament to name a few. I am losing focus and ranting now, but it was a few years back I believe that the Utes even had the idea of changing their mascot or logo from the Utes on their jersey to something else, they presented this idea to the Ute tribal leaders who said they did not feel well about the interpretation of the new logo so the university left it alone. This should be up to the school and the tribe they are representing. __________________ Spank you very much

08-09-2005, 06:17 AM	#2 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Ok, I just saw this and I'm pretty pissed. I'm a FSU fan and I just can't think of where this would go now. I can't imagine a game without the chant and chop. If the Seminole tribe gave the ok on the matter, then the NCAA needs to stand down or make an exemption. This PC bullshit is just crazy. I think I'd rather have a team using my heritage as a mascot than have no-one using it and everyone forgetting about it altogether. :shrug:

08-09-2005, 01:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
MikeSty The Computer Kid :D Location: 127.0.0.1	Sigh, crazy people in this world :-/ Next it'll spread to the majors, and all of a sudden, no more smiling Cleveland Indian