coyote

Who do you guys think was the last (non-steroid using) slugger. I have to think Eddie Murray and Mike Schmidt probably. Think what Dave Kingman, Bob Horner and Greg lusinski could have done on 'roids.

Hrothgar

Cant think of a 'last' one but a current one Ken Griffey Jr. has never been associated with the steriod crowd, i.e. Giambi, Bonds, Canseco, Palmeiro, etc.

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canuckguy

griffey jr is the only real slugger left, all natural there. man was he awesome in his younger days.

VitaminChemE

as a red sox fan it saddens me to say, a-rod has to up there

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AVoiceOfReason

Schmidt was the first one to come to my mind, but I have to agree about ARod and Junior. And for me, Eddie Murray is the forgotten slugger. I've not come up with him if you'd have given me ten minutes and 20 tries at a good name to put in this catagory.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

DDDDave

How about Henry Aaron? He is after all the career home-run leader. What a sweet swing.

The realization that guys have been doing steroids in some form for probably at least 20 years really is disheartening. The NFL got serious about steroids in 1990-1991, that's 14 years ago. Baseball (Bud Selig) just absolutely ignored it. They were succumbing to the lure. Baseball itself was on steroids.

The Palmeiro thing should come as no surprise. Look at his stats pre and post Canseco. Re: Paleiro and the HOF. I say 'Where will we draw the line'. Will we finally just say - 'We don't care if you cheated, you had good numbers'.

Even though he is a jerk, at least Pete Rose didn't cheat the game when he was playing. (Guaranteed he would have if 'roids were around when he was).

/Rant over

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skinnymofo

i agree with griffey and arod
its just too bad griffey has gotten hurt so much or he would be goin for the record not bonds.
its hard to say how many people broke records juiced and who didnt.
i would guess theyve been around since atleast the late 60s not just the last 20 years.
as they were legal at one time.

Jocose

I would definetly go with Eddie Murray and Mike Schmidt. It is a real shame about Palmero getting busted for Steroids after swearing before congress that he has never done them. *shrugs*

skinnymofo

while im thinking about this thread.. what about frank thomas?
i havent read consecos book to see if hes in there or not.

pan6467

Albert Belle..... the man was a monster. Jim Thome and Manny Ramirez.... I maybe naive but I have never heard of any of those 3 doing them or associated with them (Belle and corked bats maybe....lol)..... however this season with Thome's "Bad back and wrist" and it just happens to be a major testing year...... makes me wonder. But Manny I seriously doubt ever has had to do anything.

I'd say Mike Schmidt and JR might have been the best in my lifetime so far. Noone I have ever seen had that beautiful Griffey Jr. swing...... it was a masterpiece swing, poetry in motion.

As for Luzinski, Kingman and those guys with power but no ave. back in the day....... even on 'roids they would still have had to hit the ball.....

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MontanaXVI

Griffey, Aaron, Schmidt, Ruth, Mays, the list can go on and on, but current players I have to say Griffey.

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MikeSty

Im surprised that a lot of (apparent) baseball fans haven't read Jose's book.

He didn't really name names (okay, he did, but it wasn't a list or anything), he just kinda said that almost everyone does it. The only people he really made big note of was the people he personally helped or injected - Palmeiro being one of them. One of the people he specifically noted that DID NOT do steroids was Derek Jeter. There was mention of A-Rod, but I forget what he said. Jose was pretty indirect about most specific players, but he said as a whole, most players used 'roids.

My question is, how many of you would have said Raffy had the allegations not been released just recently? I think I would have - had I not finished "Juiced" days before Palmeiro had been caught.

Jose is quoted as saying "The challenge is not finding a player who has used steroids, rather, finding one that HASN'T" ...

jason87

*Barry Bonds*

MontanaXVI

I have the Jose book, as he was my favorite player in his playing days. I emulated everything about him (that I knew) on the playground with friends such as the stance, the number etc. The book was a waste of my time, and have not brought myself to finish it, every chapter can be summed up like this. I used 'roids and I learned the right way to do it, you can use them too if you know the right way to use them like me. Just very boring to me.

Palmeiro I do not consider to be a great slugger he was a consistent 30's guy while Griffey was hitting mid 30's-40something all the time, even hit 56 back to back. I just do not think of Jr as a steroid user because of his natural raw talent (well we hope/think it was anyway)

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Marvelous Marv

It's hard to believe Belle wasn't doing 'roids, considering the rages he flew into.

JumpinJesus

How about Reggie Jackson? I was also a big fan of Willie McCovey, though that's going back a bit and I grew up towards the end of his career. Let's also not forget Cal Ripken, Jr.

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spongy

How about a ride in the way-back machine .. the last guy to hit 50 before Fielder did it and it became run-of-the-mill. George Foster of the Reds.

I would say ARod and Griffey come to mind quickest of the current players. Papi and Manny maybe too.

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Stephen King

MontanaXVI

something that is forgotten all too often, and I am not saying he did not use anything, just pointing out a stat.

McGwire knocked 49 lonngballs in 87 his rookie year as a scrawny little kid.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/alltim...Id=9071&type=0

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pan6467

Mcgwire was very talented ..... I don't think he started until it was obvious to him talent alone wasn't enough. He saw guys like Belle and JR crushing his stats clean and he needed that help.

Plus he had some health problems at the start so maybe he felt the 'roids would help him "catch up" so to speak.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MikeSty

Canseco does chronicle his happenings with McGwire in his early career. Canseco tries not to take anything away from the guys and points out that McGwire and Palmeiro are both very good natural hitters, but as someone else said, McGwire didn't hit that many HR's in 1998 without the steroids that Jose introduced him to early in his career.

As for Albert Belle's rages, I assume you mean .. emotional? I really don't remember Belle all too well -- I think I've seen vids of him get pissed and charge the mound - but Canseco makes a strong claim that the steroids he uses and reccomends have no emotional side effects. He makes several good points as to why they don't and how the media blows things way out of proportion.

You honestly can't say that anyone since the Jose Canseco era that has had godly power numbers is surefire not a steroid user..... I mean, of all people, nice, quiet, under the radar Rafael Palmeiro gets caught. Of all the power hitting players, he gets caught. Maybe the book has biased me, but I strongly believe that had I not read it, I would back my claim up that anything goes now - anyone who I previously thought for SURE was not a 'roid user for one reason or another could be.

They may not all be obvious like Giambi, Bonds, hell, McGwire, but I wouldn't doubt if many of them used steroids.

As for the comments on the book -- I gotta agree with what Montana said. At first it did come off that way. I kept reading and sorta looked past that to the deeper meaning of it. I must say it would have been nicer if he had followed through and stopped using stupid examples.

highthief

People have been juicing up in sports since the 50s - first weightlifting and bodybuilding, then track and football, then everybody else. It's virtually impossible to say anyone playing since the 70s has not used juice. Alas, everyone is suspect, and the more recent, the more suspect.

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Esen

Dont hate me, but I think that Griffey Jr did use steroids, that is why he was so good and then turned so bad to injuries later on.

Mike Piazza seems like a steroid free slugger.

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Blackthorn

Jr. is definitely on the juice. Most of it is Sunkist but he does go for the occasional Snapple. He usually uses it to wash down his Krispy Kreme's that he shares with fellow Reds slugger Adam Dunn.

Come on... Jr never touched steriods. The man just failed to do the necessary work to keep his fragile frame in playing shape. He remained lazy as he aged and fell into the trap of his natural talent and ability that for years had held him up as one of the elite players in the game of baseball.

What did Nolan Ryan and Cal Ripken Jr have in common? An incredible work ethic that provided them with longevity in the young man's game of baseball that few will ever match. Junior could learn from their work ethic and if this year is any indication he just may have figured it out.

Junior is on pace to hit 36 homers and drive in 110 RBI's. Those aren't bad numbers for a man who had his hamstring torn off the bone last year. The major surgery he went through to have that tear repaired would have crippled most normal individuals. Junior has had to work extremely hard to get back to form and if you've seen him play this year at all he's been second only to Andruw Jones in terms of productivity as a center fielder.

Junior is back steriod free as he has been his entire career and baseball is better for it.

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pan6467

Agreed,he had a talent most would have given anything to have but he was arrogant and lazy as a kid (if I recall right, he was not well liked by other players). I believe I remember reading how Seattle knew he would have problems and that is why they didn't even try to re sign him instead they traded him for magic beans.

It's the same with Thome.... the man just has so much strength and raw talent but his work ethic isn't the greatest (and he does like his beer). The Indians saw this and knew he was going to have back problems and that is why they couldn't give him that extra year that the Phillies guaranteed him.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MikeSty

Very well put. IMO, Raffy doing roids is the same as Nettles corking / superballing his bat.

pan6467

Huge difference between corking and adding muscle. Corking allows head speed to move fast thus the ball moves, but studies show corking doesn't add distance.

Steroids however make a difference in the game. Great example: Giambi hit 2 HRs last night against the Indians (because of this the Yankees won).... was he juiced? The beginning of the year he hit for shit then in July (I would assume after he was tested) all of a sudden he goes on a tear???? Come on.

So let's say Giambi was juiced, being juiced the Indians lost the game and in doing so the Yankees stayed ahead of the Indians in the WC race.

If Giambi wasn't juiced the question remains, (moreso than any corked bat, or spitball or whatever cheating was done before), and baseball needs to take that question out of the realm of possibility.

So juiced or not the question of cheating is there and as long as it is baseball loses credibility in many fans eyes.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MikeSty

I'm a yankees fan and I'm willing to agree with you (and Jose Canseco) that Giambi is clearly juiced. It's blatantly obvious.

I didn't mean it in the literal sense. Of course bat modifications won't do jack in terms of distance compared to steroids. I'm saying that if one is to be called cheating, the other must be called cheating as well. Bat speed IS crucial, and that's a fact.

Well, if you put it that way, you make it sound like no one but Giambi is juiced.

pan6467

And corking is illegal, however, it is not against A FEDERAL LAW, whereas, a vast majority of the steroids are banned in this country. So the players are literally breaking the law when they use steroids.

So don't play as if corking a bat is just as bad as illegally using drugs to enhance your game.

And no Giambi isn't the only one juiced, BUT his juicing affected the outcome of a game or 2 and therefore enhanced the Yanks chances to advance in the playoffs.

I'm just saying MLB needs to test more than just once a year and "random players" ....

MLB is teaching kids that they can take illegal steroids, hit a ball a mile and make millions. It's BS and I hope Congress demands weekly or monthly testing of all players and anyone caght using faces prison time and/or lifetime bans from the game on the 1st positive test. Time to clean up the sport.

There was a scandal in 1919 that plagued the integrity of the game.... this will make that one seem lame when all this is over and done... and this time there is noone named Ruth to save the game as there was in the 20's.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MikeSty

When they use steroids that are banned by law, then they're breaking it. I'm not sure I'd agree on vast majority, but since I have no real evidence then what the hell. I could be way wrong.



A game or two that you saw. This snippit here is remarkably shallow. Saying "but his juicing effected the outcome of a game or 2" is almost futile, hell, you could even say it's blatantly obvious ...... but that's the case with any steroid using slugger, is it not?

Well, if they really want roids out (which would mean less money for them), they could do a much better job. Period.

Actually, a deeper lesson would go something like this:

"MLB is teaching kids that you can make a very profitable business by exploiting players by letting them enhance themselves to hit more dingers and get more people tuned in"

.. but I digress. You could go on and on about the "they're teaching kids this" BS for hours on end.

Yeah, someone may end up coming back and saving the game. For all I know, he might as well be using steroids - and if he does, I don't blame him one bit.

pan6467

From http://www.steroids.com/


I stated it was an example of 1 game.



Isn't that what a lifetime ban would effectively do?


Selig wants stiffer penalties because he knows Congress is getting involved. It is the Players Union that refused and set the standard 10 day suspension. In fact Selig fought hard to get the anonymity clause out so that people would know who was shooting themselves up.



Do you truly even know the effects of steroids? Do you know what happens to the person after they take them? Did you ever see Lyle Alzado at the end of his life?

I'd rather be a heroin or crack addict then to go through what these people will go through.

Again from: http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Steroids.html

Yeah, it's worth letting people kill themselves, and become possible menaces to society as they beat the hell out of people in 'roid rages.

It's worth it to watch these guys become heroin addicts as they turn to those drugs (usually opioids, but also benzos) to calm themselves down from the 'roids...... (I see a few cases like that in the drug rehab I work every couple months.... on average maybe 1-2 cases a month, guy/lady took steroids and started shooting up to calm themselves down and fight the "'roid rage", paranoids and so on.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MikeSty

Canseco only gave one paragraph on Lyle Alzado, saying that there isn't much scientific proof that links the brain cancer and the steroids, just a dying Lyle Alzado telling everyone the drugs did this to him. Personally I don't think that the steroids caused such tumors - they made it worse. Canseco made claims that steroids have helped him regenerate himself after having three back surgeries and other problems. If this is the case, then I wouldn't be surprised at all if the 'roids affected the tumor.

I am unclear on what you and others define as "steroid abuse". Not in the legal sense, rather the scientific sense. All of the symptoms are results of steroid abuse. I really believe there is a way to use them without abusing them. Note:

"Doses taken by abusers can be up to 100 times greater than doses used for treating medical conditions!"

I'd love to see the following:

1. The true doseage for a medical use
2. The true doseage Jose Canseco used
3. The true doseage Lyle Alzado used
4. The true doseage that an "abuser" used

..... of any given steroid that all of the above use(d). I'm VERY curious. ATM I'm flipping through the pages of "Juiced" looking to see if he mentions any doseage amounts.

I guess I can't argue with someone who works at a drug rehab, but I honestly think that you can use 'roids without ABusing them.

pan6467

You can use any drug without abusing it. I just have problems with the players because I truly believe they have abused them and they are illegal.

If they feel the risks are worth it....it's their bodies. However, as with any illegal drug they should face the same penalties that Heroin, Cocaine and Meth addicts face. Instead of just slaps on the wrist. They truly are sending out the wrong message and MLB is allowing them to with their slaps on the wrist.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Marvelous Marv

I don't see how you can have a discussion about "juicing" without mentioning Gaylord Perry.

Sorry--I just thought it was getting a little too serious.

/Goes back to room

pan6467

King of the "Greaseball" lol..... can't talk about Perry without talking about the Niekro brothers either.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MikeSty

Did Phil Niekro cheat too? I didn't think so, because he's one of teh only two k-ballers in The Hall. Joe was the one that used the nail file, right? Hey, i wouldn't be surprised if Lance was getting roids from Barry and corking his bats ;-)

Yeah, they def. should face penalties for illegal shit. Today they had a TV show on, some corny sports show on some corny network. They interviewd Angels catcher John Paul (I think that was his name), and he had some pretty good answers. The one guy drilled him and asked if he thought Palmeiro took them intentionally or not, and John pretty much replied with "well, if he did or if he didn't, they only suspended him for TEN GAMES the first time around. some people make it sound like torture or execution", which I thought was very well put.

I agree, they should be banned, but if the testing is regular, a first time warning is good.

spongy

AS far as corking the bat, it does add distance to the hit, just like an aluminum bat does, a corked bat is lighter, letting you swing faster.. the faster the bat is going when it impacts the ball the further it goes. This is also why aluminum bats let you hit the ball farther.

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Kubz18

today i heard a rumor on inside the huddle on espn radio that another superstar tested positive for steriods, but i dont know how much truth there is to it..... but if this is true do you think that it could be giambi?

who know...baseball is killing themselves with this lately....

also i heard that palmero might even be thinking about not coming back after the suspension. theres no benifits for him to coming back... if he does poor all it does is prove that hes a liar also why would he want to come back for the last 50 games and face the music from now very skeptical fans

this could be a intersting week for baseball

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Blackthorn

I heard a report this afternoon that said that Canseco has another book due out next spring titled: Vindicated. He's going to put in it copies of threat letters received from Peter Angelos of the Orioles and his law firm. So far I've heard reports of exactly ZERO law suits being filed against Canseco. None. Nada. Mr. Bluuuuutarski ... zero point zero.

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pan6467

Can baseball afford another superstar popping? I don't think so, not this close to the WS. So if one did I am sure they will cover it up until after the season.

If Raffy doesn't come back aw well.

I just hope this off season they test players this winter and anyone who pops, gets suspended for all of next season.

Perhaps, when the multi-millionaire F/A get popped and can't play the owners won't be as liberal with their money and the union will weaken to the point of being useless.

I also believe any player that pops.... should be forced to lose a 1/4 of his contract, retroactively as well as present and future.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

doodlebird

i'll weigh in on griffey as being the greatest non-steriod of today.
and for the one person in america who thinks he's a user...
WTF???
he's the exact same size he's been for a long time.
alright, he's a little larger than when he came into the league at 19 yr old.
he grew up.
men do that.
he didn't go up 42 hat sizes like Barely Bonds.

of recent history,
it's hard to say anyone was better than hammerin' hank.

and for the future...
keep your eye in the reds' outfield.
adam dunn is a freak of nature.
he doesn't juice.
he doesn't have to.
he's a monster playing a man's game.
someone on the espn staff predicted a 700 HR career for him.
it he sticks around, it'll happen.
he's in his 4th full season.
(he played 66 games in 2001)
he's got 151 HRs in 613 games played.
that's 1 HR every 4 games.
at that rate, he'd need almost another 15 yrs.
that's a looong time to keep up 40 / yr.
not sure if he'll get there,
but it'll sure be fun to watch.
and every time he gets to 50
is one year he can hit 30 and stay on pace.
(he's projected for 47 this year,
but he leads the majors with homers after the break,
so it could be more)

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doodle