maximusveritas

I've been a longtime Suns fan, but I've also been a big fan of Shaq, so I'm kinda torn on this one and I think there are good arguments for either player.

Both guys had a big impact on their new teams, making their teams and individual teammates better than they were before. Both teams have struggled when they were out.
They both have great individual stats, albeit in different ways.
I think what seperates Shaq from Nash is that he plays on a team that consists of just him, Wade and a bunch of role players. Nash, on the other hand, plays on a team with 4 other great players.
Look at what happened to LA when Shaq left. Dallas, on the other hand, really didn't miss a beat.
The bottom line is that if you had to draft a team at the beginning of the year, you'd pick Shaq first. As Nash himself put it, Shaq should be MVP every year. Nash deserves credit for a great year, but Shaq is in a league of his own.

Spartak

One could make an equally good case for both Shaq and Nash, but I think Nash will win, even though Shaq was the better player. I think the voters acknowleged the fact that he is the single most dominating ball player in the League already.

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sixate

Shaq better be the MVP. Only a Shaq hating dumbass would vote for Nash. You can put Shaq on nearly any team, and they'll most likely end up playing for an NBA championship. Nash has yet to play for one, and the way the Suns play D they won't even play for a Western Conference Championship. The Suns just aren't built for the playoffs.

alec

I know Shaq should win, but I'm getting so tired of hearing the shitty ESPN commentators talk about Shaq all the time (aka Stephon A Smith) that I want Nash to win in spite. I swear, has anyone noticed what a racist, black-apologist that guy is? At least Greg Anthony has a head on his shoulder, Smith is just a loud idiot. How come no one talks about Dirk either though? He had a great season.

Philangicality

Nash... he is without a doubt the man running the show in Phoenix. They are such a young team with talent, but with out Nash there is no way that they would be able to co exist together. Nash opens up the court and understands how to distribute the ball to open players to create even more shot opportunities if the designed play does not work.

sashime76

Nash...he can run and shoot and hit the free throws. He is like a taller/stronger Stockton.

absorbentishe

The best thing I heard against Shaq, he's <I>not</I> the go to guy at the end of the game on his team, that belongs to Wade. Where as Nash <I>is</I> the go to guy. I can't disagree with either.

Ace_O_Spades

Nash deserves the MVP, he's the general of the Suns... Without him would be like cutting the head off of the best team on the NBA.

They'd just flop around and die

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Cross-Over

This is a very good argument; I think many good points have been made. I saw the same argument on NBA Shootaround last week, where Greg Anthony was all about Shaq, and he wouldn’t shut the fuck up and let Mark Stein make his point about his choice of Nash.

I am a statistic guy, and even though they play two different positions, I want to note some of the great accomplishments of each player this year

Shaq: His scoring is down compared to early years, but that is 100% irrelevant when you consider his team's success with his current production and his career best field goal percentage of 60%. He blocks shots, rebounds, and he passes well out of the double team. For a man of his size, he does a superb job at attacking the ball, instead of the player, enabling his to stay out of foul trouble fairly well. He plays the game very well, and fans who say that he is just too big and all he does is dunk, are seriously misguided. He , has to contend with the three second rule, zone defenses, and double teams, and offensive foul calls. In addition, early in his career he was much leaner, agile, and explosive.

Nash: He has achieved a rarity in efficiency, by shooting at least 50/40/80 (50% from the field, 40% from 3-point territory, and 80% from the foul line. His assists numbers are over a 11 per clip, and he is in the top 10 in assists per turnover. His team is the best in the league, and in the same breath as Shaq, he is the biggest acquisition that led to his team's marked improvement.

I pick Shaq. Reason being, Nash gets knocked defensively, and rightfully so. Nearly every starting point guard in the league is bigger than him, and it’s tough for him to fight through screens because of his frame. Most small point guards somewhat counteract that s by being thieves of the ball, but Nash really doesn't apply good pressure on the ball or steal the ball. Shaq is a very good defender, Nash is a below-average defender. It is not a cliché either, the game is really played on both sides of the ball.

radioguy

i've got to go with Shaq. he's always dominate. no one has proven that they can stop him, plus his new team increased their win total with him and his old team digressed. as for Nash, great player but his old team, the mavs, actually had a better record without him, go figure.

blakngold4

nash doesn't play that much defense, but here's the deal as far as i'm concerned...

shaq's old team went from NBA finals participant to the lottery. his new team went from low-level playoff team to top seed in the east.

nash's old team won more games this year w/o him than last year with him. his new team has done great too, but shaq is sorely missed in LA.

now, i see nash getting tons of novelty votes, and more votes from shaq b/c the nba mvp kinda rotates (jordan should have like six, but whatever) so voters may not jump on shaq's bandwagon this time.

whiplash13

My vote goes to Larry Bird. Sorry haven't watched B'ball in a long time.

Nimbletoe

Nash is a good point guard. However, there is a reason that if we were asking this question last year, we would all think someone slipped some crack into our milkshakes. Nash is playing on a team where any decent point guard could excel. Do you honestly think that if Kidd had that kind of lineup that they wouldn't be doing just as well, if not better than they are? Two all stars and two solid players isn't exactly shabby. Shaq has Wade, but after that... not a whole lot.

That, along with looking at the records of the two player's previous teams this year, and I think the award goes to Shaq. I think the MVP SHOULD go to Dirk, but that's a different argument :P

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alec

yah, but Nash's old team picked up Van Horn, Stackhouse, and kept its other talent...

The Laker's lost Shaq, Derek Fisher, Payton, Malone and half of their championship team... and got... who??

maximusveritas

well, not really

Dallas lost Antoine Walker and Jamison, which is at least equal to what they picked up.
The Lakers got Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins, Chris Mihm and Vlade Divac. There were substantial injuries there, but I think they are equal to what was lost (other than Shaq of course).

BalloonKnots

The MVP definitely belongs to Nash.

Without him last year, the Suns not only didn't make the playoffs, they finished 13 out of 14 in the Western Conference (with basically the same core group of players). With him this year...1st! Yes, Shaq's team also finished 1st, but in the East. It doesn't take much to lead the lowly Eastern Conference these days. Miami finished 4th and made the playoffs without Shaq last year.

One could argue that the Suns are so good this year is the emergence of Amare Stoudemire. But if you look at his stats from last year, the only real increase in his production is points/game, from 20.6 to 26 this year....and you could attribute that to Nash's league leading 11.5 assist/game.

So, the "Most Valuable Player" belongs to the guy who brought his team from next-to-last a year ago all the way to first this year......NASH!

powerclown

Put Shaq on the Hawks and they'd go deep into the playoffs, if not all the way.
Put Nash on the Hawks and they're lucky to make the playoffs.

BTW, Nash himself said on live TV during the Memphis series that Shaq deserves the league MVP every year.

The most dominating player of this generation, by far.
2005 MVP should go to Shaq.

BalloonKnots

I'm not arguing that Shaq is not the better player. There is no doubt in that, he's the single most dominant player in a long time.

Just who is the most valuable player to his team...this year. Wasn't that the topic of this thread???

NASH...thread closed.

blakngold4

what a bunch of crap.

1) mike d'antoni's the consensus coach of the year. if he put the system in place that makes this work, you don't give nash credit for piggy-backing off that for being in the right place at the right time. it'd be like giving timmy chang a heisman just for throwing for 4000 yards. not impressive when june jones is coaching.

2) don't mention quentin richardson. keep pretending like they didn't add anyone else in the offseason. i mean, he only scored 15 a game.

3) don't mention that amare missed a third of the season last year. a dominating PF wouldn't have mattered at all in the west.

4) how many guys can do nash's job? plenty. how many can do shaqs? not plenty. that's valuable. thread closed.

BalloonKnots

Talk about a load of crap...

Amare did play 55 games last year. If they were to have won every single game he played, they'd have a record of 29-26, which did not happen. So at best they were a .500 team with Amare last year.

Q's 15pts/game does not equal those 33 wins. Anybody can put up 15 points.

And when does having a good coach in a good system hurt your chances of an MVP? If that's the case, should we take the MVPs away from Jordan because of Phil Jackson and his triangle offense?

And no, there are not many players that can put up Nashes numbers: 15.5 pts, 11.5 assists, 50% fg, 90 %ft, and 1.3 3pts per game. I can see maybe Kidd doing similar but without the high shooting percentages.

Last year, the Suns scored 94 points per game. This year they averaged 110 per game. With Nash unable to go, the Suns averaged 86 a game. Now that's value!

Cross-Over

BalloonKnots, what about Nash's defense woes? It has been mentioned in this thread, but it doesn't appear that you're considering those. Nash is a below average defensive point guard, Shaq is an above average defensive center. As I mentioned earlier, it is not a cliché either, the game is really played on both sides of the ball.

Omar12

I think Nash would win, just because the Suns couldn't win without him this season.

I really want to win Shaq, because he was the better player in both sides of the court, and by making his teammates better. Shaq brings a lot of confidence to the players around him.

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BalloonKnots

Defense has been considered.......considered a moot point, when you look at the results.

The entire team is a defensive liability by design. If the team you throw out there scores 110 points per game, it doesn't really matter if the other team scores 100. Defense and the old Pistons/Knicks style of basketball goes against their entire team philosophy...just outscore the other team. So whatever Nash does and doesn't do well obviously works for them!

As my boss always reiterates...just give me the bottom line!

dragon2fire

to me you have to keep in mind wht the mvp stands for most vauble player....not best player....that said look at how bad the suns where with out nash....they had lost like 4 games all year he goes out a month and they triple it. nash is more vauble to his team



the heat could make the conferance finals with out shaq he does put them over the hump but look at how bad the suns were with out nash ...last year they were not even a play off team

kutulu

That is the most important thing to consider. The suns plain suck without nash. The heat may not be a team that could contend for a spot in teh finals without shaq but they'd still be a good team without him.

maximusveritas

According to a poll by the Arizona Republic, this could be the closest MVP race ever. They polled 104 of the 127 voters and found that each player got an equal number of 1st place votes. Nash holds an 875-869 lead over O'Neal overall.

To address some of the comments, it's true that the Suns have struggled without Nash, but to say they suck without him is an overstatement. Still, I agree that the stretch where Nash was injured probably propelled his MVP campaign more than anything he did. He's the captain of the ship and without him they are a bit lost. That oncourt and offcourt leadership may be where Nash has the edge over Shaq.

Cross-Over

Sounds to me like you are rationalizing why Nash deserves the credit, while mentioning his team's defensive liability.

This is an individual award.

I, as many others, have presented facts on why Shaq deserves the MVP. Your rationalization on the team’s defensive liability and implying of how what Nash does on the defensive end is thus irrelevant is a stretch. Therefore, even though he is a subpar defensive player, he is the most valuable player in the league.

The MVP has not been defined, and it is clear that it is not just who is the most valuable player to his successful team (Duncan beat out Kidd a couple years ago). It is the MVP of the entire league. Look at the past 10 MVP's, defense is an obvious factor.

1993-94 - Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
1994-95 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1995-96 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1996-97 - Karl Malone, Utah
1997-98 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1998-99 - Karl Malone, Utah
1999-00 - Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers
2000-01 - Allen Iverson, Philadelphia
2001-02 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio
2002-03 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio

The biggest defensive liability on that list is Allen Iverson. He too is undersized, and gambles too much. Nevertheless, he still led the league in steals that year. He also led the league in scoring and took his team to the NBA Finals.

As I mentioned in post several weeks ago, I think Nash has had an outstanding season. I also don't think it’s a runaway race for Shaq. I wouldn't be disappointed if Nash did win it.

Nimbletoe

If it were team MVP, Iverson would hands down be the MVP. I work where the Pistons play, and watched him during the playoffs... if I had to pick any guy in the world to play with, it would be him. He's freaking unreal.

But, as it was said, this is the league MVP.

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dylanmarsh

It's official:


Per ESPN.com

Nimbletoe

That's really lame. Oh well.

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sixate

Dumbest thing ever. That's like saying everyone that voted for Nash would say they would choose Nash over Shaq if they had one of those 2 to build a team around, and we all know nobody would do that. The Suns run and gun no D style will never win a championship.

Did everyone forget that the Mavs are a better team WITHOUT Nash!! The Mavs won 6 more games without him.
The Lakers are certainly not better without Shaq. They'll suck for years now because they let him go. Nash will never affect any team that he ever plays for like that. The people that voted are just morons who look at Shaq and say he's the best, and we all know it so lets give it to the little guy. So very fucking stupid. There's at least 12 players in the league that are better/more valuable than Nash....

dragon2fire

.....they had the same team last year save nash and were not a play off team....thats pretty bad

uncle_el

the mavs and lakers are completely different teams. the mavs are essentially the same team minus nash, whereas the lakers only had kobe return for the starting 5. add to that, accounting for injuries on the lakers makes a difference, and a huge one at that. add to that, the mavs won 6 more games, yet only finished 1 seed higher... which would seem to say that everyone in the west that made the playoffs did better than last year.

the suns won 33 more games this year than they did last year. the heat won 17 more games this year than they did last year.

add ot that, i didn't know the mvp trophy stood for the player which you would build a franchise around.

don't get me wrong, i'm a shaq fan, but think that nash deserves the recognition.

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dylanmarsh

Last time I checked, regular season MVP votes aren't based on the ability of one player to carry his team to the championship. Also, weren't the Lakers a run and gun team during the 80's?

We're talking about one season -- not the last decade. If there was such an award, Shaq should be the MVP of the decade.

Did you forget that the Suns are a better team WITH Nash!! The Suns won 33 more games with him.

I agree. There definitely are 12 players, who are better than Nash, in the league today. However, we're talking about how valuable Nash is to the Suns. A brief run of the Suns' team stats with and without Nash dictate how valuable he is to them:

The Suns without Nash in the line-up:

W-L: 2-5

PPG: 103.4

PPGA: 109.4

Assists: 120 (17.13 per game)

The Suns with Nash in the line-up:

W-L: 60-15

PPG: 117.1

PPGA: 105.1

Assists: 1927 (24.09 per game)

boom29

Actually, the only thing you learn from the fact that the Lakers suck without Shaq, is that Shaq WAS the Lakers' MVP all those years (although we already knew that). The performance of Shaq's and Nash's previous teams has no bearing on their value to their current team. The loss of a big-man has a greater impact on a team than the lost of a point-gaurd which is why the Mavericks and the Lakers turned out the way they did. It reminds me of when San Antonio lost David Robinson to injury for the year, and the Spurs ended up with the worst record in the league. Back on topic, Phoenix, with Nash, had a 33 game turn-around this season, going from the bottom of the Western Conference to the #1 overall team in the league. The heat, with Shaq, had a 17 game turn-around, but they were already a solid playoff team. Shaq's value to the Heat will be in the playoffs, as they try to get to the Finals.

Shaq is undoubtably the most dominant player in the league, and that alone makes him a top-3 MVP candidate each and every year. As far as defense is concerned, when your team scores over 110 points a game, I think Nash should be cut some slack. Also, its not as if Phoenix is allowing 109 per game, their point differential is greater than seven, and at least to me, it tells me that you're doing more than enough to be considered a defensive liability. If Phoenix only scored 100 points a game, and allowed only 93, it probably wouldn't even enter into the discussion.

sixate

I don't care what statistics anyone puts up there. Nash is a great player, but MVP over Shaq? Don't make me puke. Shaq is more valuable than any player in the NBA. What has Nash done to be awarded MVP? Before answering this, name an MVP, other than Garnett, who didn't at least play for a championship........

And for the record, John Stockton was twice the PG that Nash is or could ever be. Stockton was the leader of many great Jazz teams, and he was never even thought of when it came down to voting for an MVP.

Nimbletoe

Wow, I can't believe it suprises people that the Suns are worse without Nash than they are with him. NO SHIT SHERLOCK! Of course a team is worse if you take away the guy that handles the ball down the court every damn play! I also can't believe people think it's all Nash that made the Suns better. Are we forgetting about the acquisition of Richardson? Or the fact that Amare progressed further AND missed 1/3 of last season? I'm telling you, with those other four guys on the floor, you could put any of the top 5 point guards in the league in Nash's position, and they would do just as well. He's a good player, but he is NOT MVP calibur.

Pheonix's scoring is much higher this year not only because of they way the team plays, but the way touch fouls have been called on the perimeter. That has lead a lot of teams to have higher scoring averages, if you haven't noticed.

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uncle_el

would you happen to remember that big guy... i think he wore #32... finished 2nd in all time scoring list... what was his name... karl malone!!! damn dude, it's not as if stockton carried that team alone with a bunch of "who dats".

and of course you should think about the other players that were at the top of their game during stockton's career: jordan, magic, bird, barkley, olajuwon, robinson, and karl malone (mvp winners during the height of stockton's career).

the suns had the same players minus nash last year, and didn't even make the playoffs. they added nash, and they finished with the best record in the nba.

the dude scored 15.5 ppg, and dished out 11.5 assists... dudes' responsible for at least 38.5 points per game (assuming all assists were only 2 pointers)!

again, i'm not saying shaq isn't a great player, but what shaq did is what he does... perform at a high level and dominate... which is expected of him... which makes what happened last year even sadder as he was obviously, in hindsight, unmotivated. but i digress. shaq and the heat lived up to the expecations.

people didn't think much of nash going to phoenix. the team went from no playoffs to best record in the nba. to think that it was due to anything other than nash is silly.

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uncle_el

quentin richardson wasn't helping the clippers to win a ton of games. should we use the same analogyy that was used in nash's case and say the clippers finished with a better record this year without richardson, so richardson obviously isn't a factor?!?!?

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An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of inprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses. - Malcolm X

blakngold4

that's just wrong. not only did they add Q's 15ppg and a third of a season from amare (who's at the age where he should be progressing rapidly) but they basically tanked the season by trading their backcourt (penny and marbury) and signing a new one in free agency. barbosa and jacobsen's minutes dropped too. the improvement that came was largely because they ditched the team they had midseason and played bums. shaq was traded (so his old team actually GOT something in return) and they still went in the tank. nash left w/o replacement and they STILL didn't miss a beat. i don't get it.