Bookman

JO was asked a ? about if he felt that the proposed age limit is racially based?
He said he had feelings that it is but the media carried the story like JO called a press conference to make this claim.

NEVERTHELESS..

Why change what has been precedented in the NBA? If the product is weak then it is up to the owners to improve the product.....right?
When the history of HS to NBA draft has only one player who was not black and with other sports which allows players to earn @ young ages why has the NBA/America decided to try to close this door?

I wont call it racist but it seems as though people are trying to make decisions for young black athletes where it does not concern themself. If they want to be so benevolent go help the millions of underprivileged black youth in the Nation.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2035132

Stern wants NBA age limit raised to 20ESPN.com news services


Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal said he thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement.

"In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star Game, so why we even talking an age limit?" O'Neal said.

The past two rookies of the year were drafted out of high school: The Cavaliers' LeBron James was the 2003-04 rookie of the year, while the Suns' Amare Stoudemire won the award after the 2002-03 season.

Players currently have to be at least 18 to be drafted, but NBA commissioner David Stern would like to see the age raised to 20.

"We are seeking to raise that to 20 or two years out of high school. The NFL's minimum age is 3 years after high school. I'm optimistic the union will agree to some raise in the minimum age in the current collective bargaining," Stern said in a recent ESPN.com chat.

The NBA's seven-year labor agreement expires after the season. The union originally opposed raising the current age limit of 18, but has begun to waver.

O'Neal doesn't agree with Stern's agenda, however.

"As a black guy, you kind of think [race is] the reason why it's coming up.

"You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. Army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?" O'Neal said.

If the NBA had the age limit Stern is proposing in 1996, O'Neal would have had to postpone the start of his NBA career.

O'Neal went to the NBA straight out of high school in 1996 and was drafted by the Portland Trail Blazers, who made him the 17th overall selection.

O'Neal didn't blossom into the star he is today until he was dealt to the Pacers during the 2000 offseason. He has made the past three Eastern Conference All-Star teams.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

liquidlight

Call me crazy, but I don't see raising the age limit as a bad thing. The remarkable lack of maturity that you currently find in professional sports is problem enough, I don't see how that attitude is going to be addressed by encouraging the athletes to continue to act like children.

Maybe if they made the minimum age 26 for all of the sports and forced these prima donnas to actually work in the real world before becoming overpaid asses they'd appreciate the job more!

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Doctor_Max

I don't see a reason to change it, but I also don't see how it affects him. If anything, it reduces the amount of talented youngsters competing for his job.

What people fail to realize, is that this change will also enhance the NCAA. Imagine Lebron on a run and gun team.

blakngold4

"When the history of HS to NBA draft has only one player who was not black and with other sports which allows players to earn @ young ages why has the NBA/America decided to try to close this door?"

this is where you miss out. first, the nba is the only major sport (including hockey, to some extent) where you can basically go directly from HS to the pros. you can be drafted in baseball and hockey out of HS, but you're basically a lock to go to the minors. every now and then, you see a 19y.o. break into the majors, and the best 18y.o. or maybe two from around the world would break into the NHL immediately (ilya kovalchuk comes to mind). these players can sign rookie deals, but often have very little in the way of payment after the signing bonuses are handed out, unless these guys hit the big leagues. in baseball, plenty can go wrong between HS and the 3-5 years it takes to make it to the majors, and you're left with no college education, no job prospects, and trying to stretch a signing bonus for the rest of your life (i know two people who've basically wound up in this gig).

as for the fourth major sport, football, they require 3 years out of HS before you can be drafted. i'm on the fence here. on one hand, you have to put up with a lot of crap to play college sports. you get a free education out of it, IF the school/coach is concerned with that, but often, naive athletes are handed schedules loaded with filler classes designed to keep smart players eligible and keep them from overloading on work. also, you're taking a beating playing college ball for at least 3 years, and football players especially have a limited shelf life. the flip side, however, is that how many HS kids would be ready for the NFL? um, i might be biased, but i'm taking Herschel Walker, and maybe a few other RB's. traditionally, rookies there have made bigger impacts than other positions, and much of it seems to center on the simplicity of the position. take the ball, run, don't get tackled. you can be moved in/out when situations dictate and you aren't in a position for the other team to really exploit your limited experience with advanced NFL-level coaching.

the nba has a paradox of its own though: it's bad business to babysit these kids for a few years on your bench (hurts short term quality), but so many of the league's stars are HS players (could bring long term windfall). that forces the hands of the GMs, IMO, to try to find a long-term franchise player. kobe, garnett, mcgrady, oneal, lebron...that's a helluva starting lineup. amare, curry, chandler, and others (including the smiths this year) have shown they're on the way up too.

owners don't have incentive to restrain themselves right now with respect to picking HS'ers. IMO, if they'd change the CBA to increase player movement (shorter contracts, make it so current teams can't overbid so much for their own FA's) then the age limit would be unnecessary. players leave for the pros b/c they either can't/don't qualify for college, or they know they'll go high. if teams know that a HS kid will hit free agency in 4 years, and their chances of resigning him are barely higher than the chances of any other team with cap room, high school players will plummet on draft boards, because teams won't invest 4 years of coaching and development into someone who can't do anything for them immediately. star players like lebron would still find their way into the league, to varying amounts of success, but some of the korleone youngs would be weeded out.

pan6467

I've seen both.... OSU footbal paved the way for some Jr.s to leave early and be successful in the NFL and of course Clarrett's challenge of the age.

And I have seen Lebron drafted straight out of high school.

Personally, I feel that if a league wants to adopt an age limit then it is their right to. TO scream racism is pathetic. Fuck that bullshit. I am tired of any time someone wants to do something that they feel will better their product or company racism is declared.

1 not many high schoolers are mature enough to have that kind of money,
2 the NBA product sucks and is full of gangsta and diva attitudes brought on from a majority of these high school pukes (more so than any other sport, well the NFL is close).
3 Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Dr. J they all had to pay their dues what makes these kids so special?

Lebron seems above all this and seems mature but, he is a rarity, look at other HS kids that got drafted right away and the attitudes they have.

And as far as racism..... lol.... look how many whites are truly drafted even from college. I don't see how anyone could say the NBA is racist in any way shape or form. Sounds to me like people trying to cry and make something an issue that really shouldn't be.

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jorgelito

You got to wonder: Why isn't there an age limit in any other sport? Tennis, golf, hockey, soccer, ice skating.

I don't know about racist but it does seem to be a little "big brotherish" to me.

DJ Happy

Without knowing the exact reasons behind Stern's proposal it's hard to comment, although I know I'm not alone in saying that the NBA probably leads all pro sports bodies in the number of immature playing members. Some of these kids let the immediate fame and fortune of the NBA go straight to their heads and remain there for a very long time. Interesting that one of them has decided to childishly play the race card in light of this proposal. Maybe this particular incident will help illustrate the need for an age limit.

Bookman

An athlete's personality should not be a factor. He will be the same jerk in College.
Noone addressed the point that there has already been precedent..dating back to Moses Malone.

blakngold4- What you miss is that in the other sports the talent may not be there and they wind up in the farm system...that is what it is. If Mark Cuban or other owners want to draft a HS player that is their perogative. Their investment & gamble.

IMHO there is indeed to much subjective character judgement on young players and too many people who think they know what is good for another individual.

If said rookie signs rookie contract most likely three years..if he does not plan for a future after his career I dont really see how much different he would have behaved in college. A diva is a diva. Why should talent "X" waste his time playing for DUKE which makes mega-bucks off his sweat for most likely a few years of college when this guys specialty is HOOPS?!?! Do we tell entertainers to go to college? Didi you forget that professional athletes are entertainers? Hey Brittney...you may get pregnant, your boobs may sag and you may never get your gut back into the low-rises..you cant perform anymore until you prepare your self for a career outside of pop music. GET OUT OF HERE!!!

The world needs to stop trying to judge these people. On one hand the pop industry companies are allowed to fund all this gangsta rap and make their fortunes but now the athletes adopt that culture but to their own detriment?!?

There is most definetly a big brotherish/racial aspect to this debate. The people being judged are young black men. While I absolutely HATE what the POP/Hip Hop image and culture has become (mostly becuase I am a disciple of what the culture was initially in NYC) with its glorification of lyrics, image and behavior centered around incarceration, drug dealing, various crimes and most importantly violence against other minorities.....denying these young men the right to enter the draft is WRONG.

Jesus Malverde

Hey, he might not be so wrong to say there is racist INTENT, he isn't saying Stern is a racist, or the NBA is racist.

Who is this rule going to affect? Young black men. Robert Swift is the only white player to come out straight from high school. These guys have every right to come out of high school into the NBA, the owners don't HAVE to draft them.

If there was a law made that was only going to affect hispanics, or people of european descent, there would be questions raised. Jermaine O'Neal just asked "Why?"

Found a GREAT article:here's a different take on what he said, from someone who obviously knows him better than I do: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...jackson/050414

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Doctor_Max

Someone on ESPN made a comment about how that since the league is predominatly black (85%?), then any rule change will affect black men. Raise the veteran minimum, they benefit. Raise the age limit, the veterans benefit, the younger guys don't. Take the good with the bad.

Kurant

I think the age limit is a good thing. And of course it will hurt the black male. Why? Because I'm willing to bet the white kids who come out of high school don't live in the same areas or lifestyle the black males do. Living in the porjects, playing on the playground, going to high school and playing ball. Coasting the way through highschool simply because their career is on the line of some teacher or school says you can't play ball anymore because you can't make grades. The projects and the hood is a story that goes along with ALOT of black athletes. Is there somthing wrong with that? Absolutley not.

Black athletes, mainly NBA players, are superior athletes, it's a no wonder these kids like LEbron come out of high school at 6'8" built like a mac truck. It's not a miracle the NBA teams wants these kids, it's the right thing to do. HOwever, what happens when Lebron breaks his leg, has a career ending knee problem. Do you think Lebron, with his Hummers and all went to every class, did every book report, every science project, every piece of homework?

When 90% of the high school players that enter the NBA from high school are black, you don't need a cencus study to tell you an age limit will force these kids with no educations, lacking reading or comprehension skills, or just general ability to learn somthing to go to college. When they can't attend a college because they can't learn, they don't get into the NBA with an age limit. It's common sense, it's not racism. J. O'Neal needs to shut his mouth.

blakngold4

"What you miss is that in the other sports the talent may not be there and they wind up in the farm system...that is what it is. If Mark Cuban or other owners want to draft a HS player that is their perogative. Their investment & gamble."

No Bookman. The talent is always there. that's what gets them drafted to start with. it's the development that doesn't show up. they wind up in the farm system initially b/c the talent is there (if you're talking about elite draft picks) but they haven't harnessed all of it yet.

As for Cuban, for example, it's his investment and gamble now, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD be his choice to make. the league's talent situation almost creates a race to the bottom, where bad teams have incentive to take flyers on HS kids knowing that 1) they won't contribute at first so the team will have time to get other high picks, and 2) these guys usually have the highest ceilings, meaning they might get a star. in the short term, a useful and experienced player gets dumped, and the coach spends 3 years babysitting a kid who, far more times than not, can't play at an NBA level. as it stands, owners have an incentive to gamble on these projects because rookie contracts are cheap by nba standards, and because the team that holds a player gets an enormous advantage in resigning him, by having the right to offer more years and more money per year. if you shorten the deals allowed AND lessen the advantage that "home teams" have in bargaining, the system can self-correct w/o an age limit (side note: there IS an age limit right now, it's just 18). with such changes, mark cuban could still blow a pick on a high schooler if he wanted, but he'd have to accept the fact they'd spend 3 years coaching him with little production, then he'd be on the open market with a chance to ditch them for whoever he wanted. deserving HS players would still get picked that way, but owners wouldn't waste picks on marginal prospects who would never produce for them.

kurant, your post smacks of the condescension that makes people like jermaine oneal paranoid. i think oneal's wrong, but didn't say the right thing. we have laws pass all the time that have a disparate impact on one social group or another. the laws themselves aren't racist, but their affects are. whether you would call the result a "racist law" depends on your point of view: focusing on either the law itself or its impact. while i agree with the argument that the league being 4/5 black means that any rule changes affects blacks more, the contrast is more clear when you look at the age limit. i can think of one white player who would've been affected by this in the past ten years (which is basically the timeframe of HSers going pro). i can think of TONS more black players that would've been affected. so, even with the nba being 4/5 black, the group of early entrants that would be affected (at least looking backwards at who would've been affected) is more like 97% black. how you interpret that is up to you. does it make it a "racist law?" maybe. kids can always play overseas if they dont qualify for college i guess.

Bookman

I would rather train with NBA players than a college setting. Why be bothered with books and studying when my career is ball!?!?!
I would rather practice everyday against Jason Kidd than some scrubby ass college players.


To Kurant- Any young NBA star who has a career ending injury should have @ the least put away college tuition or an initial investment fund (my market would be real-estate). College wont teach a person who intends on making millions how to do this. This comes from listening to good advice.

blakngold4

bookman, aside from saving money, smart players heading for nba success have large insurance policies going all the way back to when they're in college. with these policies, if accidents like those suffered by bobby hurley and jay williams happen while they're in college, they're still good to go. decory bryant, a corner on the UGA FB team while i was there, hurt his neck and ended his career. he had a smaller, but similar policy to guarantee him a financial windfall.

as for why you go to college, it's COLLEGE! i dunno about you, but in the words of yogi berra (i think)...if i had it to do all over again, i'd do it all over again. beyond that, there's something to be said for the culture shock of going to the nba. games are 1.5x longer than HS games, and when you throw in the pace and talent increases, it's a huge transition for players used to walking over the opposition.

i'm not saying that there aren't people it's right for, but i'm saying that the game would be better with a minor league system and/or age limit and/or changes in the CBA that would indirectly discourage teams from taking HSers and thus ensure that only the truly elite kids under 20 got a shot at the league.

Kurant

First off, I didn't call anything a "racist law". Nor ever attempt to give that impression. Your preaching to the wrong person, chief.

Second of all, you just said exactly what I said, right back to me. It's common sense. If the league is 4/5th's black, and the young kids entering the league follow the same pattern, yes, a rule change will of course impact the black community. Like I said, it doesn't take any census study to figure that out.

The impact of the rule? Who knows.. and frankly, who cares? Besides drastically improving a damaged league image in the mind of some. Thats most likely the motivation behind what Stern wants, I'm sure. (The league's image has drastically declined since MJ left after the 6th title, Stern needs another MJ, not an age limit)

Racist law? Come on, it's a rule preventing kids from entering the NBA. It's not singling any race, or indivual out, if effects blacks more, simply because the NBA's class of entering athletes that are young, are black. Just because you put an age limit on it, doesn't mean it isn't going to stay that way. Because, it will, and the athletes these young kids are today, it should. It's remarkable.

blakngold4

actually, i didn't. you just missed part of the point. it's true that any league action would affect lots of black players, as the league is 80% black, but when you consider the general population of the league compared to the early entrants in the draft, you get a totally different story. one white american kid has been drafted out of high school. one. i can't think of any white kids turning pro after their freshmen year of college, but marbury, melo, abdur rahim, maggette, and others have made that work too. so, when you consider that standard league rules would take 80% of their toll on black players, and the players affected by this rule would be 97 or 98% black, it's VERY easy to see how this could be construed as racist, WITHIN the framework of a league that's mostly black anyway.

if that's not clear enough, contrast that with something like the rookie pay scale implemented almost a decade ago: assuming league demographics stay the same over time (80% black) THAT rule would affect all players coming into the league equally, and 80% of those restricted by the rule would be black, just as 80% of the league is black. with early entrants who wouldn't be allowed in the league, you're looking (historically anyway) at one american white kid against dozens and dozens of black kids affected. instead of 20% of those affected being non-black, it's more like 2%. that's a huge difference, and THAT is why i could see the rule being interpreted as racist.

Strange Famous

I dont see it is a racial issue... but I agree with the basic point, if you are old enough to fight for your country, you are old enough to play basketball for a living in it.

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Kurant

Simple demographics and a slight bit of common sense will tell you that the leauge will continue it's progression with more black players then white players. Therefore, any rule change that has to do with limiting players entering the league (targetted at namely college freshman/highschool players based on the proposed age limit) will effect a specific group of people - that group of people being, not white, nor black. It being these young kids entering the draft.

We're saying the exact same thing, your just telling me WHY it could be racist -- I'm just simply telling you it's not.

DJ Happy

I don't understand how someone who plays in a league that is 80% black could think that that league is racist. That just makes no sense.

College is not just about "learning things" (and anyone who makes that statement strikes me as someone who never went to college). College is also about making that important step from living at home with Mommy and Daddy to living away from home and taking care of yourself to a certain extent. It's about learning accountability and responsibility, something that I would imagine would be a very easy lesson to miss if you've gone straight from living at home to having millions in the bank.

It's probably why Kobe is such a twat, why Eddy Curry spent his first few years in the league being an overweight layabout, why Tyson Chandler and Kwame Brown expected to just turn up and dominate and why Jermaine O' Neal is now saying that imposing a higher age limit in the NBA is prejudiced against blacks.

Darko Milicic probably wishes they had imposed this rule 2 years ago.

cameroncrazy822

Who gives a shit what he says. It's like these idiot actors that start beliving hteir own hype and becoming political pundits. If I want a serious analysis of NBA policy I'll ask an expert not JO. Freakin' idiot.

bwhite897

I think a lot of it has to do with the decline of the level of play in recent years. Fundamentals are becoming completely lost, and that's from not only so many high schoolers entering the NBA, but also so many kids leaving college early.

Sure you have success stories such as LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, but for every one high school player that did become successful, you probably have at least four who didn't.

bwhite897

80% black player wise, but that's a whole other topic...

feelgood

I beg to differ. Hockey, especially NHL, demands more skills, more of the athletes' abilities to play. NHL has more white player than compared to other race. I'm not trying to start a flamewar regarding which league has more white/black or which league demands more of their players.

They can always go back to school. You can't go to college right out of high school and expect to able to pay for it off the bat. When you get out of the league, you got the money for it.

O'neal got a point. Why mess with a system that's always worked. You got players coming out of high school that plays better than those who are already in the league. So, based on that point, team owners would want to hire younger guys in order to make their team as winning as possible. If the younger player are no longer any good compared to others, throw them out. It's the fact of life.

Racism has nothing to do with it. Attitude has nothing to do with it. Every major league team has players who played for 10 years, gets paid in millions of dollars and is still an asshole.

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kutulu

I think this age limit talk is BS. If a player has the potential he should go straight to the pros. Otherwise, this formally makes the NCAA a free minor league system for the pros. If this goes through I think that the NBA should be responsible for paying all college scholarships that any NCAA player recieves.

0energy0

academics before extracurricular

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crossova

i think an age limit of at least 18 should be regulated. If you can sacrifice yourself for this country then why cant you be able to put a ball through a hoop, professionally, at the same age.

The NBA should seriously create an NBDL team for each NBA team and use it as a minor league system, similar to the MLB's minor league system

0energy0

being in military serves a purpose, to serve others...

i dunno about being a professional basketball player other than serving entertainment to your friends. we have forgotten about our service to our people.

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