2004 Pro Bowl Selections - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dylanmarsh · 12-22-2004, 01:32 PM

Code:

AFC OffensePos.	Player	         Team	           Stats
WR	Marvin Harrison	Colts		75 rec, 969 yds, 14 TDs
WR	Chad Johnson	Bengals		82 rec, 1,161 yds, 7 TDs
WR	Hines Ward	Pit		75 rec, 972 yds, 4 TDs
WR	Andre Johnson	Texans		73 rec, 1,083 yds, 5 TDs
OT	Jonathan Ogden	Ravens		9th Pro Bowl selection
OT	Willie Anderson	Bengals		4th Pro Bowl selection
OT	Willie Roaf	Chiefs		10th Pro Bowl selection
OG	Alan Faneca	Pit		4th Pro Bowl selection
OG	Will Shields	Chiefs		10th Pro Bowl selection
OG	Brian Waters	Chiefs		1st Pro Bowl
C	Kevin Mawae	Jets		6th Pro Bowl selection
C	Jeff Hartings	Pit		6th Pro Bowl selection
TE	Tony Gonzalez	Chiefs		77 rec, 990, 5 TDs
TE	Antonio Gates	SD		74 rec, 915 yds, 12 TDs
QB	Peyton Manning	Colts		308-451, 4,168 yds, 47 TDs
QB	Drew Brees	SD		241-369, 2,869 yds, 24 TDs
QB	Tom Brady	NE		245-412, 3,202 yds, 24 TDs 
RB	Curtis Martin	Jets		330 att, 1,511 yds, 14 TDs
RB	L. Tomlinson	SD		318 att, 1,254 yds, 16 TDs
RB	Edgerrin James	Colts		311 att, 1,464 yds, 9 TDs
FB	Tony Richardson	Chiefs		2nd Pro Bowl selection

Argh. I tried to get this lined up from an excel document but it just isn't working. Here are the links to ESPN for the full rosters:

AFC: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/s...e=afcroster/04

NFC: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/s...e=nfcroster/04

Glad to see Tom Brady is getting the respect he deserves.

Ace_O_Spades · 12-22-2004, 01:52 PM

Vick, as a QB... that makes me laugh

I wanted it to read as RB... that would be comedy, sadly I don't give him much respect as a QB.

djtestudo · 12-22-2004, 02:00 PM

Code:

WR 	Marvin Harrison Colts 	         75 recs, 969 yds, 14 TDs
WR 	Chad Johnson 	Bengals 	82 recs, 1,161 yds, 7 TDs
WR 	Hines Ward 	Steelers 	75 recs, 972 yds, 4 TDs
WR 	Andre Johnson 	Texans 	         73 recs, 1,083 yds, 5 TDs
OT 	Jonathan Ogden 	Ravens 	         9th Pro Bowl selection
OT 	Willie Anderson Bengals 	4th Pro Bowl selection
OT 	Willie Roaf 	Chiefs 	         10th Pro Bowl selection
OG 	Alan Faneca 	Steelers 	4th Pro Bowl selection
OG 	Will Shields 	Chiefs 	         10th Pro Bowl selection
OG 	Brian Waters 	Chiefs 	         1st Pro Bowl
C 	Kevin Mawae 	Jets 	         6th Pro Bowl selection
C 	Jeff Hartings 	Steelers 	6th Pro Bowl selection
TE 	Tony Gonzalez 	Chiefs 	         77 rec, 990, 5 TDs
TE 	Antonio Gates 	Chargers 	74 rec, 915 yds, 12 TDs
QB 	Peyton Manning 	Colts 	         308-451, 4,168 yds, 47 TDs
QB 	Drew Brees 	Chargers 	241-369, 2,869 yds, 24 TDs
QB 	Tom Brady 	Patriots 	245-412, 3,202 yds, 24 TDs
RB 	Curtis Martin 	Jets 	         330 att, 1,511 yds, 14 TDs
RB 	LaDainian Tomlinson 	Chargers 	318 att, 1,254 yds, 16 TDs
RB 	Edgerrin James 	Colts 	         311 att, 1,464 yds, 9 TDs
FB 	Tony Richardson Chiefs 	         2nd Pro Bowl selection

Defense
Pos. 	Player 	         Team   	Stats
DE 	Jason Taylor 	Dolphins 	8.5 sacks
DE 	Dwight Freeney 	Colts 	         15 sacks
DE 	John Abraham 	Jets 	         9.5 sacks
DT 	Richard Seymour Patriots 	39 tkls, 5 sacks
DT 	Marcus Stroud 	Jags 	         44 tkls, 4 sacks
DT 	Sam Adams 	Bills 	         34 tkls, 4 sack
LB 	Takeo Spikes 	Bills 	         86 tkls, 4 INTs
LB 	Terrell Suggs 	Ravens 	         9.5 sacks
LB 	Joey Porter 	Steelers 	49 tackles, 7 sacks
LB 	James Farrior 	Steelers 	84 tkls, 4 INTs
LB 	Ray Lewis 	Ravens 	         134 tkls
CB 	Champ Bailey 	Broncos 	72 tackles, 3 INTs
CB 	Chris McAlister Ravens 	         36 tkls, 1 INT
CB 	Tory James 	Bengals 	56 tackles, 7 INTs
SS 	Ed Reed 	Ravens 	         66 tkls, 8 INTs
FS 	Troy Polamalu 	Steelers 	88 tkls, 5 INTs
S 	John Lynch 	Broncos 	58 tkls, 1 INT

Specialist
Pos. 	Player 	         Team 	         Stats
Punter 	Shane Lechler 	Raiders 	47.6 yard average
Kicker 	Adam Vinatieri 	Patriots 	28-29 FGs, 43-43 PATs
Return 	Terrence McGee 	Bills 	         3 return TDs
Special	Larry Izzo 	Patriots 	3rd Pro Bowl
teamer

Code:

WR 	Joe Horn 	Saints 	         85 recs, 1,248 yds, 10 TDs
WR 	Muhsin Muhammad Panthers 	79 recs, 1,195 yds, 12 TDs
WR 	Terrell Owens 	Eagles 	         77 recs, 1,200 yds, 14 TDs
WR 	Javon Walker 	Packers 	81 recs, 1,210 yds, 10 TD
OT 	Orlando Pace 	Rams 	         6th Pro Bowl selection
OT 	Tra Thomas 	Eagles 	         3rd Pro Bowl selection
OT 	Walter Jones 	Seahawks 	5th Pro Bowl selection
OG 	Larry Allen 	Cowboys 	8th Pro Bowl selection
OG 	Steve Hutchinson Seahawks 	2nd Pro Bowl
OG 	Marco Rivera 	Packers 	3rd Pro Bowl selection
C 	Matt Birk 	Vikings 	4th Pro Bowl selection
C 	Olin Kreutz 	Bears 	         4th Pro Bowl selection
TE 	Alge Crumpler 	Falcons 	48 recs, 774 yds, 6 TDs
TE 	Jason Witten 	Cowboys 	73 recs, 853 yds, 5 TDs
QB 	Daunte Culpepper Vikings 	336-481, 4,133 yds, 34 TDs
QB 	Donovan McNabb 	Eagles 	         297-466, 3,839 yds, 30 TDs
QB 	Michael Vick 	Falcons 	175-314, 2,278 yds, 13 TDs
RB 	Shaun Alexander Seahawks 	304-1,462, 12 TDs
RB 	Tiki Barber 	Giants 	         276-1,314, 11 TDs
RB 	Ahman Green 	Packers 	236-1,086, 6 TDs
FB 	William Henderson Packers 	1st Pro Bowl

Defense
Pos. 	Player 	         Team 	         Stats
DE 	Bertrand Berry 	Cardinals 	12.5 sacks
DE 	Patrick Kerney 	Falcons 	10 sacks
DE 	Julius Peppers 	Panthers 	10 sacks, 2 TDs
DT 	La'Roi Glover 	Cowboys 	5 sacks
DT 	Shaun Rogers 	Lions 	         4 sacks
DT 	Kevin Williams 	Vikings 	10 sacks
LB 	Keith Brooking 	Falcons 	90 tkls
LB 	Derrick Brooks 	Bucs 	         116 tkls, 3 sacks
LB 	Dan Morgan 	Panthers 	82 tkls
LB 	Jeremiah Trotter Eagles 	58 tackles
LB 	Marcus Washington Redskins 	3.5 sacks
CB 	Ronde Barber 	Bucs 	         3 INTs, 12 pass breakups
CB 	Dre' Bly 	Lions 	         4 INTs, 14 pass breakups
CB 	Lito Sheppard 	Eagles 	         5 INTs, 15 pass breakups
SS 	Michael Lewis 	Eagles 	         84 tackles, 1 INT
FS 	Brian Dawkins 	Eagles 	         68 tackles, 4 INTs
FS 	Roy Williams 	Cowboys          2 INTs, 10 pass breakups

Specialist
Pos. 	Player 	         Team 	         Stats
Punter 	Mitch Berger 	Saints 	44.1 avg.
Kicker 	David Akers 	Eagles 	26-30 FGs, 39-40 PATs
Return 	Eddie Drummond 	Lions 	26.6 kick ret. avg., 4 TDs
Special Ike Reese 	Eagles 	1st Pro Bowl selection
teamer

This should work, as I previewed it and it looked fine.

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

Vick, as a QB... that makes me laugh

What a joke. Vick does not belong in the Pro Bowl. I'm surprised Feeley isn't going to the pro bowl

Shpoop · 12-22-2004, 02:40 PM

WATCH IT RDR!!
AJ Feeley is young and growing better with every game!

oh who am i kidding. next stop: draft!

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 03:03 PM

Hell Shpoop, their stats are almost the same man, it is a absolute disgrace that Vick and ProBowl should even go in the same sentence. You wonder what kind of people vote for this guy.

Guy #1 "Isn't Vick the guy who was on the cover of Madden?"
Guy #2 "er, yeah, lets vote for him, he must be good!"

thecoldone33 · 12-22-2004, 03:06 PM

im surprised Jevon Kearse didnt make it on the list.

Ace_O_Spades · 12-22-2004, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

Guy #1 "Isn't Vick the guy who was on the cover of Madden?"
Guy #2 "er, yeah, lets vote for him, he must be good!"

haha pretty much... Popularity, combined with the fact that people dont pay attention to their weak schedule when looking at their record, combined with the fact that he actually is a great athlete, just not a very good qb...

djtestudo · 12-22-2004, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

Hell Shpoop, their stats are almost the same man, it is a absolute disgrace that Vick and ProBowl should even go in the same sentence. You wonder what kind of people vote for this guy.

Guy #1 "Isn't Vick the guy who was on the cover of Madden?"
Guy #2 "er, yeah, lets vote for him, he must be good!"

Vick changes the way defenses play against the Falcons. He has enough weapons at WR/TE and halfback to be a normal QB, but when defenses go to stop those, he is one of the best and fastest runners in the league.

That is why he's so good, and a Pro Bowler.

I wouldn't make any changes to those rosters.

filtherton · 12-22-2004, 03:31 PM

I'd replace joe horn with randy moss, but that's just me.

Harry Cox · 12-22-2004, 03:32 PM

Only 2 Aggies. We need to work on that.

Nimbletoe · 12-22-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

haha pretty much... Popularity, combined with the fact that people dont pay attention to their weak schedule when looking at their record, combined with the fact that he actually is a great athlete, just not a very good qb...

Because the NFC is just LOADED with stellar QBs...

Ace_O_Spades · 12-22-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimbletoe

Because the NFC is just LOADED with stellar QBs...

let's look at the stats shall we:

Top three leading passing yards

1. Culpepper
2. McNabb
3. Favre
11. Vick

Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFC/PYDS/2004/regular

Top three leading passing TD's

1. Culpepper
2. McNabb
3. Favre
11. Vick

Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFC/PTDS/2004/regular

Top three leading passer rating

1. Culpepper
2. McNabb
3. Griese
12. Vick

Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFC/PRAT/2004/regular

So... What say you now Nimbletoe?

[edit]

He also has 12 INTS in 314 attempts compared to:

McNabb - 8 INT 466 ATT
Culpepper - 11 INT 481 ATT

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 05:31 PM

No kidding, that post should be made a sticky.

Comparing Culpepper and McNabb to Vick is just downright hilarious.

QB Daunte Culpepper Vikings 336-481, 4,133 yds, 34 TDs
QB Donovan McNabb Eagles 297-466, 3,839 yds, 30 TDs
QB Michael Vick Falcons 175-314, 2,278 yds, 13 TDs

Ace_O_Spades · 12-22-2004, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

No kidding, that post should be made a sticky.

Comparing Culpepper and McNabb to Vick is just downright hilarious.

QB Daunte Culpepper Vikings 336-481, 4,133 yds, 34 TDs
QB Donovan McNabb Eagles 297-466, 3,839 yds, 30 TDs
QB Michael Vick Falcons 175-314, 2,278 yds, 13 TDs

lol! Sticky it up! Mods?

Its not even that... In comparing Vick to Bulger, Hasselbeck, Griese, and Harrington he falls short...

heccubusiv · 12-22-2004, 06:37 PM

Even with ESPN rating system Vick is towards the bottom of the list. Take him out

I would add Aaron Smith, 8 sacks in a 3-4 defense. Also add Dillion

registrant2000 · 12-22-2004, 06:38 PM

I see alot of statistics, but the probowl is for ALL fans. The truth is that most fans don't care about the type of statistics posted in this thread comparing Vick's numbers to the other QB's. What they want to see is Vick with the ball in his hand on 4th and 12.. blowing past defenders on his way to the goaline. Oh yea, doesn't LEADING a team that's 11-3 and that has sewn up their division count for anything?

Ace_O_Spades · 12-22-2004, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by registrant2000

Oh yea, doesn't LEADING a team that's 11-3 and that has sewn up their division count for anything?

11-3 in the NFC isnt the same as 11-3 in the AFC

Yeah, you make a good point, which was the point that was made earlier in the thread.

Fans vote based on popularity, which is why the Pro Bowl selections are something which always irk me, especially when deserving candidates are omitted.

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by registrant2000

I see alot of statistics, but the probowl is for ALL fans. The truth is that most fans don't care about the type of statistics posted in this thread comparing Vick's numbers to the other QB's. What they want to see is Vick with the ball in his hand on 4th and 12.. blowing past defenders on his way to the goaline. Oh yea, doesn't LEADING a team that's 11-3 and that has sewn up their division count for anything?

The simple fact comes down to his position at QB. Vick is not a good QB; as a matter of fact he is at the bottom of the list. Sure, he is an incredible athlete, but that alone means nothing in terms of what it takes to be a good QB. A QB has to have a number of other qualities to be considered all-star caliber, most importantly, that of knowing how to actually pass the ball....which Vick has yet to learn. Once this guys legs start to slow down on him, what is he going to do? He will be finished, and I can guarantee you the Sparrows can not win a play-off game with an inconsistent QB like him (no matter how sorry the NFC is).

Plain and simple, Vick sucks as a quarterback, but I'm sure he would make a fine running back. And if that were the case, than he would deserve to be a pro-bowl selection, but the fact that a miserable QB like him gets to have pro-bowl honors is ridiculous. There are a lot more worthy QB's in the NFC deserving of that title.

Nimbletoe · 12-22-2004, 10:06 PM

First off, McNabb and Culpepper are ahead of him. Obviously they deserve it over him. Secondly, as previously stated, the pro bowl is for the fans. But the main reason is that he brings a new dynamic to the QB position. The fact that every time he drops back he can do a number of things makes defenses constantly stay on their toes. You can really only understand this if you watch their games. If you go on stats, and stats alone, then yeah, maybe another QB deserves it (oh, and whoever said Harrington is better than Vick is high on something. hahaha, I wish). I'd like to have Vick on my team simply because he's a threat every play, and makes defenses uneasy. Not everything is stats.

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 10:10 PM

A threat to his own team with all the INT's.

Nimbletoe · 12-22-2004, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

A threat to his own team with all the INT's.

Which is why they're 11-3.

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 10:23 PM

No, that would be because their schedule was filled with loser teams.

registrant2000 · 12-22-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

Plain and simple, Vick sucks as a quarterback

Your assessment of Vick as a quarterback would be more legit if it was just plain and simple, but it's not. He'll always get knocked for his statistical shortcomings until he proves critics wrong, but your evaluation fails to recognize Vick's redefinition of the QB position. He's an anomaly, to compare him with other more traditional QBs lacks foresight.

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 10:32 PM

Re-defintion of the QB position? Are you stating that because he can run he has re-defined the position? Lets forget that all important aspect of being a QB, you know the one that requires one to pass the ball? He hasn't re-defined a thing, all he does is show how NOT to be a QB.

registrant2000 · 12-22-2004, 10:40 PM

Who said that you 'have' to pass the ball to be a QB? That's just a part of the job description, not the sole part. The redefinition part comes into play when as a player you can come into the game and change the accepted norm ("the requirement to pass the ball".. i guess) and be effective at what you do at your skill spot and get W's.

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 10:53 PM

That is exactly why I say he is not a good QB, he does have a sole aspect down, which is running, but he can't do anything else. Nobody says all you have to do is pass, but you can't be a successful QB unless you know what makes a great QB. And running alone doesn't make a QB great...

Nimbletoe · 12-22-2004, 11:01 PM

There have been great quarterbacks that have been really good passers, but only so-so runners. Why doesn't that work in reverse? He's obviously getting the job done. Look at Caulpepper's Viking's record. I mean, it's hard to argue that the QB isn't the leader of the team, and he's doing fine. He isn't a TERRIBLE passer, and he's still pretty young.

registrant2000 · 12-22-2004, 11:01 PM

What determines success @ the QB spot? Trent Dilfer has a superbowl ring that says he was a successful QB, but I don't think he'd come close to your Montana criteria (nor would 90% of QBs playing today). Vick has time and winning percentage on his side, plus nobody wants another Joe Montana. Vick will be Vick whether you appreciate him as a QB or not and he'll play the QB spot his way. Instead of watching Roethlisberger film, he could find old reels of Jeff George. Wait, no.. nevermind.

Rdr4evr · 12-22-2004, 11:18 PM

Quote:

There have been great quarterbacks that have been really good passers, but only so-so runners. Why doesn't that work in reverse?

It doesn't work in reverse because the primary job of a QB is to pass, the primary job of a RB is to run. A QB can not win alone on running because if you face a stellar defense that is ready for the run, what are you going to do? Throw 7 INT's? Also, running like that all the time is going to get him injured more severly than he did last season, not only can something like that cost the team the season, it can also end his career.

Quote:

What determines success @ the QB spot? Trent Dilfer has a superbowl ring that says he was a successful QB, but I don't think he'd come close to your Montana criteria (nor would 90% of QBs playing today). Vick has time and winning percentage on his side, plus nobody wants another Joe Montana. Vick will be Vick whether you appreciate him as a QB or not and he'll play the QB spot his way. Instead of watching Roethlisberger film, he could find old reels of Jeff George. Wait, no.. nevermind.

I removed my Montana statement before you replied registrant2000 for the same reason you stated.....so ignore that.

Dilfer got the ring because he had one of the greatest defenses in NFL history, something most teams can't ever claim.

What determines success at the QB stop? I will tell you.

Grip - Vick has about 15 fumbles this season, that is more than 1 a game.

Intelligence - Vick can't read the defense in passing situations, which is why he freaks out and runs. He seems he can't audilbilize at the line either, why? Because before the play, he already sets himself up for the run. He doesn't even wan't to think of passing. He want's to be a one man team.

Mobility - He has this part down

Accuracy - He has 12 INT's with only 314 attempts.

Vision - He obviously can't scan the field in passing situations.

Nimbletoe · 12-22-2004, 11:40 PM

Who are you to criticize a formula that is obviously working for the Falcons? Should they drop Vick to RB and put in a backup QB just to make traditionalists like you happy? There have been far worse stats than Vicks, but stats do not reflect how he changes the game. If he was such a terrible passer, why don't defenses just go anti-run and stop him?

thecoldone33 · 12-23-2004, 12:49 AM

Looking at the AFC rosters i would add jimmy smith in as a WR.

Spartak · 12-23-2004, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimbletoe

Who are you to criticize a formula that is obviously working for the Falcons?

WHEN it's working for the Falcons.

Look at their losses.

Every single one has been an absolute embarassment, as time goes on, especially in the offseason, defensive co-ordinators will look at the tape thousands of times and unless Mora can come up with something creative, the Falcons will be in trouble.

Of course if Vick gets injured.... replay 2003. Which isn't that hard to picture, with that joke of an o-line.

Rdr4evr · 12-23-2004, 09:54 AM

Thank you Spartak. He answered your question for you.

Cross-Over · 12-23-2004, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

Fans vote based on popularity, which is why the Pro Bowl selections are something which always irk me, especially when deserving candidates are omitted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

You wonder what kind of people vote for this guy.

The Pro Bowl squads are made up of the consensus votes of fans, players and coaches. Each group's vote counts one-third towards determining the rosters. So opposing players and coaches also vote. They recognized his accomplishments.

Besides that, as of Dec 8th (I cant find the final tally), Vick wasn't in the top 5 for fan voting.

Ace_O_Spades · 12-23-2004, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cross-Over

Besides that, as of Dec 8th (I cant find the final tally), Vick wasn't in the top 5 for fan voting.

That's an interesting stat... I wish I had followed the balloting from start to finish now.

Cross-Over · 12-23-2004, 12:13 PM

I found a different report too. Through Dec 6th, Vick wasn't even in the top 10 in total votes. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7977093

Nimbletoe · 12-23-2004, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartak

WHEN it's working for the Falcons.

Look at their losses.

Every single one has been an absolute embarassment, as time goes on, especially in the offseason, defensive co-ordinators will look at the tape thousands of times and unless Mora can come up with something creative, the Falcons will be in trouble.

Of course if Vick gets injured.... replay 2003. Which isn't that hard to picture, with that joke of an o-line.

...

They have THREE losses. There are very few teams who go unbeaten, and i'd say that's pretty close. As far as coaches coming up with something to stop them... it's been an entire season. Why haven't we seen it yet? Vick is only going to improve as well. What does injury have to do with anything, other than you helping to prove my point? You can obviously see how important Vick is to the team. Why in the world would a QB as terrible as your making him out to be make a team so much better? Because he isn't terrible. Because he has a huge impact every time he plays. And no one has figured out how to stop him consistently.

Doctor_Max · 12-23-2004, 09:29 PM

3 Losses?

The 2001 Bears also had 3 losses with Shane Matthews and Jim Miller playing QB. They had a solid running game with Anthony Thomas and a shut down defense posting 2 shutouts and holding opponents to 10 points or under 7 times.

Hey, how are the Bears doing now?

Bodyhammer86 · 12-23-2004, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor_Max

Hey, how are the Bears doing now?

Speaking as a hardcore Bears hater (I'm from south central Illinois, so it's in my blood), they're a 5-9 team that somehow managed to pull a miracle out of their collective asses and beat Green Bay (my third favorite team). Sure, they beat them the first time, but to the Packs credit, at least they didn't go through two quarterbacks early in the season.

rant mode off/

Edit: here's to revenge come January 2nd

12-22-2004, 01:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	Vick, as a QB... that makes me laugh I wanted it to read as RB... that would be comedy, sadly I don't give him much respect as a QB. __________________ Feh.

12-22-2004, 06:37 PM	#16 (permalink)
heccubusiv #1 Irish Fan Location: The Burgh	Even with ESPN rating system Vick is towards the bottom of the list. Take him out I would add Aaron Smith, 8 sacks in a 3-4 defense. Also add Dillion __________________ Fuck Ohio Last edited by heccubusiv; 12-22-2004 at 06:38 PM.. Reason: grammar

12-22-2004, 10:06 PM	#20 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	First off, McNabb and Culpepper are ahead of him. Obviously they deserve it over him. Secondly, as previously stated, the pro bowl is for the fans. But the main reason is that he brings a new dynamic to the QB position. The fact that every time he drops back he can do a number of things makes defenses constantly stay on their toes. You can really only understand this if you watch their games. If you go on stats, and stats alone, then yeah, maybe another QB deserves it (oh, and whoever said Harrington is better than Vick is high on something. hahaha, I wish). I'd like to have Vick on my team simply because he's a threat every play, and makes defenses uneasy. Not everything is stats. __________________ Go Pistons!

12-22-2004, 10:53 PM	#27 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	That is exactly why I say he is not a good QB, he does have a sole aspect down, which is running, but he can't do anything else. Nobody says all you have to do is pass, but you can't be a successful QB unless you know what makes a great QB. And running alone doesn't make a QB great... Last edited by Rdr4evr; 12-22-2004 at 10:57 PM..

12-22-2004, 11:01 PM	#28 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	There have been great quarterbacks that have been really good passers, but only so-so runners. Why doesn't that work in reverse? He's obviously getting the job done. Look at Caulpepper's Viking's record. I mean, it's hard to argue that the QB isn't the leader of the team, and he's doing fine. He isn't a TERRIBLE passer, and he's still pretty young. __________________ Go Pistons!

12-22-2004, 02:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
Shpoop Curious Location: NJ (but just for college)	WATCH IT RDR!! AJ Feeley is young and growing better with every game! oh who am i kidding. next stop: draft!

12-22-2004, 03:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	Hell Shpoop, their stats are almost the same man, it is a absolute disgrace that Vick and ProBowl should even go in the same sentence. You wonder what kind of people vote for this guy. Guy #1 "Isn't Vick the guy who was on the cover of Madden?" Guy #2 "er, yeah, lets vote for him, he must be good!"

12-22-2004, 03:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
thecoldone33 Tilted	im surprised Jevon Kearse didnt make it on the list.

12-22-2004, 03:31 PM	#10 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I'd replace joe horn with randy moss, but that's just me.

12-22-2004, 03:32 PM	#11 (permalink)
Harry Cox Insane	Only 2 Aggies. We need to work on that.

12-22-2004, 05:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	No kidding, that post should be made a sticky. Comparing Culpepper and McNabb to Vick is just downright hilarious. QB Daunte Culpepper Vikings 336-481, 4,133 yds, 34 TDs QB Donovan McNabb Eagles 297-466, 3,839 yds, 30 TDs QB Michael Vick Falcons 175-314, 2,278 yds, 13 TDs

12-22-2004, 06:38 PM	#17 (permalink)
registrant2000 Upright	I see alot of statistics, but the probowl is for ALL fans. The truth is that most fans don't care about the type of statistics posted in this thread comparing Vick's numbers to the other QB's. What they want to see is Vick with the ball in his hand on 4th and 12.. blowing past defenders on his way to the goaline. Oh yea, doesn't LEADING a team that's 11-3 and that has sewn up their division count for anything?

12-22-2004, 10:10 PM	#21 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	A threat to his own team with all the INT's.

12-22-2004, 10:23 PM	#23 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	No, that would be because their schedule was filled with loser teams.

12-22-2004, 10:32 PM	#25 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	Re-defintion of the QB position? Are you stating that because he can run he has re-defined the position? Lets forget that all important aspect of being a QB, you know the one that requires one to pass the ball? He hasn't re-defined a thing, all he does is show how NOT to be a QB.

12-22-2004, 10:40 PM	#26 (permalink)
registrant2000 Upright	Who said that you 'have' to pass the ball to be a QB? That's just a part of the job description, not the sole part. The redefinition part comes into play when as a player you can come into the game and change the accepted norm ("the requirement to pass the ball".. i guess) and be effective at what you do at your skill spot and get W's.

12-22-2004, 11:01 PM	#29 (permalink)
registrant2000 Upright	What determines success @ the QB spot? Trent Dilfer has a superbowl ring that says he was a successful QB, but I don't think he'd come close to your Montana criteria (nor would 90% of QBs playing today). Vick has time and winning percentage on his side, plus nobody wants another Joe Montana. Vick will be Vick whether you appreciate him as a QB or not and he'll play the QB spot his way. Instead of watching Roethlisberger film, he could find old reels of Jeff George. Wait, no.. nevermind.

12-22-2004, 11:40 PM	#31 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	Who are you to criticize a formula that is obviously working for the Falcons? Should they drop Vick to RB and put in a backup QB just to make traditionalists like you happy? There have been far worse stats than Vicks, but stats do not reflect how he changes the game. If he was such a terrible passer, why don't defenses just go anti-run and stop him? __________________ Go Pistons!

12-23-2004, 12:49 AM	#32 (permalink)
thecoldone33 Tilted	Looking at the AFC rosters i would add jimmy smith in as a WR.

12-23-2004, 09:54 AM	#34 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	Thank you Spartak. He answered your question for you.

12-23-2004, 12:13 PM	#37 (permalink)
Cross-Over Psycho	I found a different report too. Through Dec 6th, Vick wasn't even in the top 10 in total votes. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7977093

12-23-2004, 09:29 PM	#39 (permalink)
Doctor_Max Tilted Location: North Carolina	3 Losses? The 2001 Bears also had 3 losses with Shane Matthews and Jim Miller playing QB. They had a solid running game with Anthony Thomas and a shut down defense posting 2 shutouts and holding opponents to 10 points or under 7 times. Hey, how are the Bears doing now?