Friday Night Fights (Pistons/Pacers Game) - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 11-23-2004, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

Ok see how much I know...
Well, they need one that is reasonable, and they need some standards to keep the high schoolers out of Pro ball. They need a bit of maturity.

I don't know Super, yeah a lot of the high schoolers they get are immature brats who handle fame in negative ways. But there is always a Lebron, who can handle it in a great and respectable way. It's all in how they are raised and the discipline recieved as children. Same as anyone.

What I believe is they need to uphold these suspensions and look within all sports and see why the players feel they are above the fans and do what it takes (even if it means locking players out until lower salaries for one, are established). Players today, know that all sports get their money from television, endorsements, corporate ticket accounts, that they have no respect for fans anymore.

Like I said in a previous post, a fan throwing a cup (especially when the player is showboating and laying on the scorer's table) is nothing compared to the old days. Hell, Dave Parker was pelted with batteries in Pittsburgh every game for a season and he didn't do anything.

The athletes (most not all and in every sport from NASCAR to Baseball, to football (college and pro) to basketball) today feel like everyone should bow down to them and feel like they are OWED everything they get and that they do not have to work for it. It's time to correct this while we still can, if we still can.

Averett · 11-23-2004, 04:14 AM

Ron Artest is on the Today show right not giving an interview. He is:

A) Incredibly stupid
B) Incredibly dumb
C) Incredibly out of touch with reality

Wow... he's just. Interesting interview.

pixelbend · 11-23-2004, 05:17 AM

I heard some of his interview on SC. Heres a basic quote:

"Do you think you acted in a responsible way, as a role model?"
"I think you should review the tape and you should be able to answer your own questions."

I never know why people go to an interview (or probably, in this case, request an interview) and then dance around all of the answers.

Lefty04 · 11-23-2004, 07:02 AM

The NBA has to be reponsible for protecting the players while they are on the court (and going to and from the locker room). If a fan goes onto the court or throws anything, they should be arrested. If a player breaks that line and goes into the stands, they should get a minimum 30 day suspension. If a fan breaks that line and gets to a player on the court, I wouldn't punish the player for whatever he does.

Averett · 11-23-2004, 07:15 AM

It was a damn paper/plastic cup of beer. Artest should have let the security guards handle it. He should have never gone into the stands.

Bill O'Rights · 11-23-2004, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Averett

It was a damn paper/plastic cup of beer. Artest should have let the security guards handle it. He should have never gone into the stands.

It's a "manhood" thing. Had he let it go (as he should have), then he loses street cred. In my opinion, Artest was in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. That said...I do believe that he handled it wrong. It's our own fault, really. This is what we come to expect of athletes, and they are providing it. Don't believe me? Just go to a Little League game, or a soccer match. It's not on a Pacer/Pistons level, to be sure...but the flu usually starts out as the sniffles. We did this.

Averett · 11-23-2004, 08:38 AM

Sadly you're completely right, Bill. As always

Raleighbum · 11-23-2004, 10:35 AM

Is there still a working clip of the whole thing somewhere? anyone?
I just saw a glimpse of it in the news...

Stompy · 11-23-2004, 11:11 AM

I hope there's a future trend where fans always throw beer at him.

Kinda like those other "sports rivalries". In Detroit, some hockey team fucked up one of the Red Wings, and since then, they have been rivals. Same should be here. Whenever he plays here, fans should pelt him with beer.

That would be hilarious.

pan6467 · 11-23-2004, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty04

The NBA has to be reponsible for protecting the players while they are on the court (and going to and from the locker room). If a fan goes onto the court or throws anything, they should be arrested. If a player breaks that line and goes into the stands, they should get a minimum 30 day suspension. If a fan breaks that line and gets to a player on the court, I wouldn't punish the player for whatever he does.

Look at professional wrestling (granted a pseudo sport but a good example for the case) and the way they handle fans in regards to the stands.

If a wrestler stands too close to the fans the fans can touch them, however if the fan crosses over and onto the arena floor, the fan then becomes fair game to the wrestlers. If the wrestlers go into the stands (as part of the show) the fans can pat the the wrestlers etc. but if you attack one you're toast.

I'm sorry I cannot nor will not condemn the fan who threw a soda cup. To state that it was "street cred" is ridiculous because Artest makes millions to be a professional and should act as such. That includes not lying on a scorer's table after instigating a fight in some other city's arena. It showed a total disregard and lack of respect for not only the Pistons team for for Detroit fans.

I am sorry if Detroit has a rep of having bad fans, that is no reason to disrespect them.

I am sorry if the player doesn't like Detroit personally, it is no reason to disrespect the fans and city.

I am sorry if the fans rode his ass, but that is part of road games and as a professional athlete he needs to deal with it or get out of the game.

My God the athletes today do far less training, far fewer practices, work far less than their predecessors, get away with far, far more publicly and yet get paid far more and cry about fans far more than those in the past.

I think all sports in their own way have gotten so far from recognizing the importance of the stadium fan that the athletes look at those fans as nuisances, people needing to shut up and have no respect for them whatsoever.

IMHO, the vast majority (not all) of athletes act as though they "are owed respect" and yet give very very little to the fans. Until they can respect fans again, I think we will continue to see more and more of these outbreaks.

Do I condone, partake or applaud fans throwing things? No, but I disdain and dispise what athletes have greed have let them become, how the athletes have destroyed sports and how they view the fans. Until, thier views of the fans change and they taper off salaries, my attitude is if the player can't handle the oppositions vocal supporters in the stands, if the athlete refuses to show fans due respect (no matter where the game is) and if the player must showboat and become an asshole, then if he gets pelted with beercups, snowballs, JuJuFruits, he has no right to complain. That is after all what is supposed to make these athletes better than the rest of us isn't it? Aren't they paid the big bucks to handle that competitive stress and perform to their best ability upon demand?

Bill O'Rights · 11-23-2004, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Artest makes millions to be a professional and should act as such. That includes not lying on a scorer's table after instigating a fight in some other city's arena. It showed a total disregard and lack of respect for not only the Pistons team for for Detroit fans.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. He should. Thing is...he's not going to until we, as the fans, demand it. We have been condoning, and even encouraging, this type of behavior for so long, that it has become part of the make up of an "athlete".

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I'm sorry I cannot nor will not condemn the fan who threw a soda cup.

I disagree, here. I will most certainly condemn the fan. We want the athletes to maintain a professional demeanor, while the fans display behavior that would make a barbarian blush. No, I think not. The guy was an ass. He may not have had an ass beating coming, but I certainly would have had him hastily escorted from the arena, with a some strong advice never to return.

pan6467 · 11-23-2004, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I disagree, here. I will most certainly condemn the fan. We want the athletes to maintain a professional demeanor, while the fans display behavior that would make a barbarian blush. No, I think not. The guy was an ass. He may not have had an ass beating coming, but I certainly would have had him hastily escorted from the arena, with a some strong advice never to return.

I don't know Bill, it has been my experience at games that if the eatms act professional and the players go out and give their best, yeah they may recieve some vocal abuse but overall the fans respect them.

It's not until athletes act like total asses that fans do.

There are some exceptions like the White sox and KC baseball incidents. In which fans jumped onto the field and deserve what they got.

However, there were incidents with the Angels and NY Yankees where players, showed no respect and charged into the stands.

We will never be able to control the fans verbals abuses (nor should we try). But we should expect and demand the athletes to hold up to a certain civilty.

Hey, if the fans get too bad, and the players truly feel threatened, then I have no problem with a game delay until the fans are quieted and can show respect for the game.

And that's what this all boils down to respect for the game and the fans. It's hard to respect the game when the players treat the fans like shit and the owners threaten the cities with moving or refuse to spend money to better the team etc. And it's hard for the athletes to respect the fans when they are paid so much and given so much all their lives that they don't have that sense of responsibility to anyone.

kutulu · 11-23-2004, 11:49 AM

The guy who threw the soda deserves just as much blame as Artest. Artest didn't even start the whole incident. He made a foul. Overly agressive, yes, but the Pistons player instigated it all.

How many people would sit and do nothing if someone threw a cup of soda at them? Fans need to know that there are limits to what they can do.

I have zero sympathy for the ones who stepped onto the court. They got what they deserved.

kutulu · 11-23-2004, 11:52 AM

Pan, throwing cups of soda goes beyond verbal abuse. So what if Artest was laid out on the scoring table. It's no excuse to start throwing items at him. If he had hit the right guy I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. None of this would have happened if the dude hadn't thrown the cup. He should be arrested for inciting a riot. Maybe in the future jackass fans will think twice before they throw something again.

djtestudo · 11-23-2004, 12:09 PM

What if the fan had thrown a bottle? A battery? A rock?

He threw the cup because that's what was in his hand. Does that make it less of an assault?

Hanxter · 11-23-2004, 01:01 PM

you all gotta see this

the cops will prolly confiscate "THE" weapon as evidence against the guy in the upcoming assault case... wow... just what i'd like for Christmas, maybe i can get artest to autograph it...

"the cup that cost the pacers a season"

Bill O'Rights · 11-23-2004, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanxter

you all gotta see this

the cops will prolly confiscate "THE" weapon as evidence against the guy in the upcoming assault case... wow... just what i'd like for Christmas, maybe i can get artest to autograph it...

"the cup that cost the pacers a season"

Holy crap!! $26,100.00?!? with 6 days 5 hours to go?
Hell, the whole damn team...scratch that...the Pacers and the Pistons need to autograph it, for that.

What the hell? There's not even...I mean how do I know that's the cup. $26,100.00 just cause this guy says he has it? Nah! I'll pass.

kutulu · 11-23-2004, 01:58 PM

Now it's selling for $99,999,999.00

Nimbletoe · 11-23-2004, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

What if the fan had thrown a bottle? A battery? A rock?

He threw the cup because that's what was in his hand. Does that make it less of an assault?

Heh, so if I hit someone with a foam bat if i'm upset, I should be charged the same as if I hit them with a metal bat? Do you really believe that?

Also, are you saying he couldn't have found something harder to throw? One fan managed to find a CHAIR, but I don't see any mention of that in this thread.

pan6467 · 11-23-2004, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

What if the fan had thrown a bottle? A battery? A rock?

He threw the cup because that's what was in his hand. Does that make it less of an assault?

Been there with the batteries, Dave Parker. He tipped his hat and continues playing.

Monopoly Money among cups thrown at Albert Belle his first Chisox uniformed game in Cleveland. He flipped off the fans.

I have seen fans throw all kinds of shit down on football and basketball players as they walk the tunnel between fans and the lockerrooms.

I not not condoning, but IT HAS HAPPENED in the past, it WILL continue to happen.

Artest started it by laying on the announcer's table and being a dick.

Did he deserve it? No.

If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who threw the cup, should he be prosecuted? Depends on the charges, disorderly conduct sure..... battery? would be hard to prove the fan did it with true malice.

djtestudo · 11-23-2004, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimbletoe

Heh, so if I hit someone with a foam bat if i'm upset, I should be charged the same as if I hit them with a metal bat? Do you really believe that?

It's called "assault and battery", my slightly biased friend.

When some are trying to absolve the fan of blame because of the object he threw, it seems perfectly reasonable to bring up this point.

dylanmarsh · 11-23-2004, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

What if the fan had thrown a bottle? A battery? A rock?

He threw the cup because that's what was in his hand. Does that make it less of an assault?

Good question, dj.

It actually does make it less of an assault because a plastic cup is typically not considered a dangerous weapon. Given that the dipshit lightly tossed it at Artest, the deadly plastic cup theory goes out the window.

However, there is an interesting route the prosecutors could take with this case. Since it was the throwing of the cup that started the entire brawl, the guy who threw the cup could conceivably be charged with inciting a riot, which is a felony in the State of Michigan. This is from the current Michigan Penal Code:

Quote:

750.87 Assault with intent to commit felony not otherwise punished.
Sec. 87.
Assault with intent to commit felony, not otherwise punished—Any person who shall assault another, with intent to commit any burglary, or any other felony, the punishment of which assault is not otherwise in this act prescribed, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 10 years, or by fine of not more than 5,000 dollars.

I'm not sure how likely this route will be but one never knows. In addition, Artest, Jackson and O'Neal could also face charges but not nearly as serious:

Quote:

750.81a Assault; infliction of serious or aggravated injury; “dating relationship” defined.

Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who assaults an individual without a weapon and inflicts serious or aggravated injury upon that individual without intending to commit murder or to inflict great bodily harm less than murder is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $1,000.00, or both.

One more interesting side note to all of this was the gentleman who decided to throw the folding chair. Check out this possible charge:

Quote:

750.528 Riots and unlawful assemblies; destroying dwelling house or other property.
Sec. 528.
Riotously destroying dwelling house or other property—Any of the persons so unlawfully assembled, who shall demolish, pull down, destroy or injure, or who shall begin to demolish, pull down, destroy or injure any dwelling house or any other building, or any ship or vessel, shall be guilty of a felony, and shall be answerable to any person injured, to the full amount of the damage, in an action of trespass.

According to this section of Michigan law, it would have been smarter to start swinging at Artest, so long as you don't intend to kill him, than grabbing a stadium folding chair and throwing it across a group of people. Although, that could still be considered assault, so you'd have a misdemeanor and a felony on your record for flinging a chair at a moronic basketball player.

Nimbletoe · 11-23-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

It's called "assault and battery", my slightly biased friend.

When some are trying to absolve the fan of blame because of the object he threw, it seems perfectly reasonable to bring up this point.

Heh, I don't know why you think i'd defend the dipshit fans that should definitley share the blame here. But, as just posted, a cup tossed underhanded doesn't fall under assult and battery. He should not have thrown anything, no, and will probably be banned from the palace for life, but pressing a charge like and assult and battery? No way.

Cross-Over · 11-23-2004, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

My God the athletes today do far less training, far fewer practices, work far less than their predecessors, get away with far, far more publicly and yet get paid far more and cry about fans far more than those in the past.

Are you sure about that?

Willie Mays himself said that players now train harder and train longer (he said he never picked up a weight or worked out for baseball during the off-season).

Thats just one example proving what you said to be incorrect, but I am sure there are plenty of examples that prove what you said to be true.

Point is, its not fair to categorize a generation of athletes the way you did.

dylanmarsh · 11-24-2004, 08:01 AM

And so it continues: http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3188868

Quote:

DETROIT (AP) - Two fans sued the Indiana Pacers and players Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal on Tuesday, contending they were injured in the brawl at the end of the Pistons-Pacers game.

Lawyers for John Ackerman and William Paulson filed suits in Oakland County Circuit Court in Pontiac, seeking unspecified damages.

Ackerman, a 67-year-old retired auto worker, says he was hit by O'Neal and then by a chair that a fan hurled into the crowd. His suit also names Palace Sports & Entertainment Inc., which operates the Pistons' arena.

"He was knocked unconscious by the chair," said Todd Weglarz, who along with lawyer Geoffrey Fieger represents the men. "The next thing he recalls is being helped into a wheelchair."

Police released a copy of a videotape Tuesday showing a man who investigators believe threw the chair, and they asked the public to help identify him.

Fieger, a former Democratic gubernatorial candidate, is known for representing high-profile clients such as assisted-suicide advocate Jack Kevorkian.

Paulson, 26, says he was punched by Jackson and assaulted by Artest. Weglarz said Paulson's family has had Pistons season tickets for about 25 years.

Paulson, who works in real estate, and Ackerman have been diagnosed with concussions from the brawl, Weglarz said.

The NBA suspended Artest for the season, Jackson for 30 games and O'Neal for 25.

Pistons spokesman Matt Dobek said the team and The Palace were aware of the lawsuits but declined comment. The Pacers did not immediately respond to a message seeking comment.

Oakland County prosecutor David Gorcyca has said the only possible felony charge in the brawl could be against the chair-thrower. He said other charges most likely would be for misdemeanor assault and battery.

Auburn Hills police Lt. James Manning said the investigation could take two to three weeks. Investigators are reviewing videotapes and interviewing witnesses. Artest and other Pacers had not been interviewed, Manning said.

Another fan, John Green, has been identified as the one who threw a cup that hit Artest before the Indiana forward charged into the stands. Gorcyca recognized Green - a former neighbor - after repeatedly watching footage of the brawl.

Once Artest was in the stands, Green grabbed him from behind and sucker-punched him, the prosecutor said.

Green, a 39-year-old contractor, told reporters Monday that it may have looked like he threw the cup, but he didn't.

"I wish the whole thing didn't happen," he said. "It was awful, it was ugly."

Green's attorney, Shawn Smith, said his client became involved in the brawl only when he saw Artest hitting a smaller man. Green also said Artest kicked him in the shin "a couple of times."

"We have no comment on who threw the cup, it's irrelevant," Smith said. He said fans shouldn't throw things, "but is it a criminal offense? I don't think so."

During an appearance Tuesday on ABC's "Good Morning America," Green described himself as a respected businessman with a wife and two children. He said he was not drinking Friday night and that Artest was "being a thug."

"I don't go around breaking the law," Green said. "If they have found that I broke the law, I'll pay the price."

But Gorcyca said Green was on probation for his third offense of driving under the influence. Green's record also includes convictions for carrying a concealed weapon and check fraud, according to the Michigan Department of Corrections' database.

Pistons chief executive Tom Wilson said Green is a season-ticket holder and will be banned from The Palace.

Shpoop · 11-24-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

It's not until athletes act like total asses that fans do.

ref you suck! ref you suck! ref you suck!

No, i disagree, fans become assholes whenever things are not going their way. Case in point: the chant i referenced. Most the time the calls are right, or if not, the ref was not biased he simply saw it differently from his persepctive. The general atmosphere among fans these days is one of complete disrespect.

Nimbletoe · 11-24-2004, 11:09 AM

I can't believe Green is still denying throwing the cup. The video is about as clear-cut as it comes.

stevo · 11-24-2004, 09:54 PM

I hope the next time Artest steps onto a basketball court someone hurls another pint at him. See if he's learned a lesson.

BEG4MERCY · 11-24-2004, 11:16 PM

i hope the moron who is gonna throw something at artest next time gets his ass royally handed to him...even better if it was at a pacers home game and the fan was from the opposing team...

:P

Jadedfox · 11-25-2004, 01:28 AM

There's a, what I thought, great article on Page 2 on ESPN about the whole thing.

Link

Or read here if you're lazy:

--jaded

Quote:

Sports' Darkest Day? No way

A friend called me on Tuesday.

He works in what he calls "real news" television, covering politics and tragedies. He considers the term "sports journalist" an oxymoron. Sports, he says, doesn't deserve journalism.

Ron Artest
The next time you watch the riot video, watch closely and use your brain.
The sarcasm dripped from his voice like Thanksgiving gravy as he said: "Well, ESPN finally has its 9/11."

As offensive as that might sound, he has a point: Since Friday night's brawl in Detroit, sports media outlets have competed like so many out-of-control Ron Artests to convince the world that IT HAS ENDED! Sports will NEVER BE THE SAME because of the SHOCKING VIOLENCE THAT TURNED A GAME INTO A RIOT!!!

I wonder: Are we telling people what they want to believe?

Or: Are people overreacting because we in the media are?

Or: Do the video images simply speak -- or scream -- for themselves?

Funny, but "real news" networks have stooped to run with this story, too. Of the 1,466 times I've seen the RIOT video, I believe six or seven were even on The Weather Channel. That's because this video is what producers call "great television." It's a fast, furious flurry of eye-bites that shock and amaze viewers who are desperate to be shocked and amazed.

I'm still not tired of watching it.

Yet the more I watch it, the less I see.

Forgive me for pointing this out, but the death toll was zero. Not one player or fan was seriously injured. Yes, this was a black eye for the NBA. But I couldn't see a single split lip. A "dark day" for this league could have been so much darker.

Just this once, try watching the RIOT video with your brain instead of just your wide eyes.

Ben Wallace's two-hand shove certainly qualifies as violent, yet his palms were open and he didn't aim at Artest's face. Hockey players would laugh at such patty-cake. Earlier in his career, Artest might have returned fire with his fists --- and I'm not sure my money would be on Wallace in that fight. He's two inches taller, but gives away 10 pounds to Artest, who was taught to box by his father, a Golden Gloves champ.

But Artest occasionally shows signs of maturity. He backpedaled all the way to the scorer's table, for example, because trading punches with an enraged Wallace wasn't worth it. Artest is at least smart enough to know the league office was itching for an excuse to punish him after he told the media he needed a month or two off to promote the rap album he produced. And after all, Artest's Pacers were only 45.9 seconds away from humiliating the defending champions on their home court.

But he couldn't simply follow his instincts all the way back to the Pacers' bench. No, he had to grandstand by lying back on the scorer's table with his hands clasped behind his head and his legs crossed. His body language said: "I'm just going to chill here on this table while you sorry losers try to calm down that chump Wallace."

Artest not only was taunting Wallace, but every Pistons fan still in the building. In effect, he was turning himself into a wrestling villain, provoking every nut in the stands. If Artest had merely sauntered back to his bench, it's highly unlikely the WORLD WOULD HAVE ENDED.

But some guy sitting a section away from Artest pulled off a near-miraculous feat. From 60 or 70 feet away, this guy underhanded a cup that landed smack in the middle of Artest's chest. If you give that guy 100 cups from that distance, he couldn't hit Artest in the chest more than two or three times, if that. If he had missed this time, it's highly unlikely that SPORTS WILL NEVER BE THE SAME.

But Artest had placed his pride on center stage. And, even though the cup was almost empty by the time it reached him, the embarrassment of getting nailed pulled Artest's trigger. Quicker than you can say "see you in court," he was charging up into the stands.

Obviously, nothing good can happen to an athlete who goes into the stands after a fan.

Ron Artest
Artest didn't show restraint in hawking CDs -- but perhaps he did show some restraint during the riot.
And obviously, the solution here is to beef up courtside security. That way, Artest and other players could control themselves because they have a reasonable alternative. All they would have to do is point out the cup-thrower. Then security guards could escort the fan out of the arena and perhaps the home team could take away his season tickets, if he has them.

But as an NBA general manager in another city told me: "Right now, that wouldn't work for us because that retired 65-year-old female security guard we have sitting behind the visitors' bench wouldn't have much of a chance against a drunk fan. This isn't the NFL. We don't have the bouncers they have."

They might now.

Yet in this case, Artest had no idea who threw the cup. He went flying by the guy who appeared to have thrown it and terrorized another poor soul who was merely jumping up and down and celebrating the direct hit. And here's a lost point: Though Artest pushed the innocent fan, HE DID NOT STRIKE HIM.

Wes Wilcox, an advance scout for the Cavaliers, was watching from his courtside seat. Wilcox told the Cleveland Plain Dealer: "Artest did a good job of keeping his composure."

By his rock-headed, short-fused standards, Artest certainly did. But most fans want to believe Artest has a screw loose, and they automatically assume the worst. If this incident had involved any Pacer other than Artest, the reaction wouldn't have been nearly as nuclear.

Same with Terrell Owens and the "Desperate Housewives" skit.

Yet now, Artest is a wrestling villain caught in the middle of an Artest-hating crowd. What if a fan had pulled a knife or gun? Don't tell me some Artest-hater at the Palace wasn't armed.

And let me tell you: I hear from many fans who sound crazier than any athlete I've covered.

Yet Artest appeared to believe the fan who was screaming, "It wasn't me!" He tried to back off, but so many hostile fans were trying either to restrain him or attack him that he was momentarily stuck. That's why you couldn't condemn teammate Stephen Jackson for rushing to his rescue.

Jackson is known as a loyal-to-the-death teammate who will go to any means to defend his team's stars.

But of course, two players in the stands means double jeopardy -- especially when Jackson can be as emotionally incendiary as Artest. As the GM said: "You can get away with having one of those guys on your team. But not two."

And just as Jackson swooped in, another fan threw a full beer right in Artest's face. That appeared to send Jackson completely over the edge, though he was restrained from pummeling the beer-thrower. Meanwhile, the fan who initially appeared to have thrown the cup at Artest had grabbed him from behind. One moment, this guy was trying to pull Artest away. The next, he was slugging Artest in the back of the head.

Only then did Artest throw the ONLY PUNCH HE THREW IN THE STANDS. Only as the fan lost his balance and fell beneath Artest did he fire one quick, tentative, downward jab. Artest's body language said: "I know I shouldn't be up here and that I definitely shouldn't be throwing a punch at a fan."

Moments later, Artest was safely back on the court. Or so he thought.

As he walked toward the bench, here came another fan in a Pistons jersey. The guy did a little Ali shuffle and appeared ready to rumble. And Artest immediately fired a hard, straight right that appeared to land on the guy's jaw. It's possible the fan partially blocked it. But here came the most amazing moment of the night.

The guy didn't flinch or teeter. He just looked at Artest as if to say: "That all you got?"

It's also possible this fan was feeling no pain. But Artest clocked him again as the fan's buddy tackled Artest around the legs.

Jermaine O'Neal
When fans are on the court, they're fair game -- players have to defend themselves.
I do not blame Artest for blasting the fan who challenged him. Under the near-riot circumstances, any fan who crosses the line and enters the court should have been fair game for the players. Again, how could Artest know the guy's sanity or alcohol level?

No, Artest was right to swing first, ask questions later.

I can't blame Jermaine O'Neal, either. In the night's most sensational video scene, O'Neal got a running start and tried to deliver a blow that could have rivaled the near 'kill' shot with which Kermit Washington once struck Rudy Tomjanovich. Fortunately, O'Neal lost his footing and some of his leverage as he landed his haymaker upside the head of what appeared to be the fan who had tackled Artest.

But again, this happened ON THE COURT. Fair game.

Through this all, I couldn't see a single security guard or policeman on the video. The Pistons should be ashamed.

And so should anyone in or out of the media who characterizes what happened in the stands as "the lowest moment in American spectator sports." I was at Wrigley Field the night five years ago when a fan swiped the cap of Dodgers' catcher Chad Kreuter, who was sitting in the bullpen. Krueter hopped over the wall and chased him. Soon, six or seven Dodgers were trading punches with four or five fans. Blood was spilled.

That was much worse than this. But that was some player named Kreuter, lost amid distant, fuzzy video.

After a father and son attacked Kansas City first-base coach Tom Gamboa at what was then Comiskey Park in Chicago, many baseball players said that any fan who enters the field during a game will take his life in his hands. In these post-9/11 times, the same should hold for NBA games.

But please don't let any of these facts ruin your RIOT video.

Skip Bayless recently joined ESPN after a career as a sports columnist that includes stops in Miami, Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago and San Jose. He can be seen Monday through Friday on "Cold Pizza," ESPN2's morning show. His column will appear weekly on Page 2.

djtestudo · 11-25-2004, 08:00 AM

Good article.

Rdr4evr · 11-25-2004, 02:07 PM

I fully blame the fans for the mess. If they can't go to a game and act like normal people without hurling shit at the players, they deserve what they get. Its one thing to mock the players, but it is entirely different to throw cups and drinks on/at them.
Wallace shouldn't have started anything to begin with, the foul was nothing out of the ordinary and he over reacted extremely. Artest kept his cool until some moronic fan decided to throw his cup at him. I think it is unfair for Artest to be considered the instigator, if anyone should be considered the instigator, it should be Wallace, followed by the fans.

Had I been Artest, I probably would have gone after the guy who threw a cup at me as well; when you’re in the heat of the moment, you don’t think straight, and I believe most people would act in a similar fashion.

On a side note, the look on that fans face who was jumping up and down like an idiot all excited changed so fast when Artest came his way, priceless. And what was the fat guy thinking coming ON to the court? He got knocked flat on his ass which he deserved as well. Stay in your seat next time and there won’t be a problem.

Nimbletoe · 11-25-2004, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

I fully blame the fans for the mess. If they can't go to a game and act like normal people without hurling shit at the players, they deserve what they get. Its one thing to mock the players, but it is entirely different to throw cups and drinks on/at them.
Wallace shouldn't have started anything to begin with, the foul was nothing out of the ordinary and he over reacted extremely. Artest kept his cool until some moronic fan decided to throw his cup at him. I think it is unfair for Artest to be considered the instigator, if anyone should be considered the instigator, it should be Wallace, followed by the fans.

Had I been Artest, I probably would have gone after the guy who threw a cup at me as well; when you’re in the heat of the moment, you don’t think straight, and I believe most people would act in a similar fashion.

On a side note, the look on that fans face who was jumping up and down like an idiot all excited changed so fast when Artest came his way, priceless. And what was the fat guy thinking coming ON to the court? He got knocked flat on his ass which he deserved as well. Stay in your seat next time and there won’t be a problem.

1. The foul was with 40 seconds left, when they were up by 16. It was a much harder foul then needed. Ben got mad.

2. Ron wasn't just "keeping his cool". He was being a smartass. He was laying on the announcers table to piss Ben off. He also put on an announcers headset and started talking, then continued to lay down.

3. He went after THE WRONG FAN. The moron that threw the cup did not get hit by Artest. It isn't like he saw the fan then went after him, he got hit by a cup, ran in the general direction, tackled a guy and asked him if he did it while hitting him. You say to stay in your seat, and not throw stuff, well, there were quite a few fans who did just that and were still hit/attacked.

4. THERE IS NO REASON TO GO INTO THE STANDS. NONE.

5. Everyone involved in that incident can share the blame. Ben shouldn't have overreacted, Ron shouldn't have charged into the stands/overreacted to a cup being thrown, the fans shouldn't have been retards, etc etc etc. Trying to place blame on just one party is ignorant of the entire situation.

6. "Being in the heat of the moment" is not an excuse for anything. Not a DAMN thing. Athletes have things thrown at them all the time (not that i'm justifying it). When they sign a contract, they are expected to uphold themselves in a civil manner, and when they don't they get suspended. Ron's life wasn't in danger. I bet the cup didn't even hurt. He just lost it, and should be punished and should take part of the blame.

DJ Happy · 11-27-2004, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

And what was the fat guy thinking coming ON to the court? He got knocked flat on his ass which he deserved as well. Stay in your seat next time and there won’t be a problem.

He was thinking, "All these guys who are swinging their fists are multi-millionnaires. If I can get one of them to hit me I could be in for some serious wonga in the courts."

Cowman · 11-27-2004, 06:18 AM

Nimbletoe: No offence, but it's hard to take your posts seriously when your avatar is a picture of a Pistons logo.

Nimbletoe · 11-27-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowman

Nimbletoe: No offence, but it's hard to take your posts seriously when your avatar is a picture of a Pistons logo.

That logo has been there since last year, and trust me, the last thing I would do is defend retards that throw stuff at players. But he was talking about no blame for Artest, who charged into the stands after someone who did nothing to him.

Cowman · 11-27-2004, 10:39 AM

I know your logo has been there a while, which is my point...it shows that you're a pistons fan..and being that some people here are arguing that it was the piston's fans that were the problem, then it would be understandable that you would argue against it whether or not there was any truth to it.

Now, im not saying that the piston's fans were the problem, I'd rather not get into this argument...but your arguments are coming from an (understandably) deeply biased viewpoint...

Nimbletoe · 11-27-2004, 02:12 PM

Perhaps you didn't read what I said. I would never, ever defend any fan, of a team that I like or not, of doing something stupid like that.

Halx · 11-27-2004, 02:13 PM

that's a great quote: ESPN finally has its 9/11

Rdr4evr · 11-27-2004, 02:52 PM

Quote:

2. Ron wasn't just "keeping his cool". He was being a smartass. He was laying on the announcers table to piss Ben off. He also put on an announcers headset and started talking, then continued to lay down.

Yeah, and Wallace should have ignored Ron's smartass antics. Ron was not the one physically attacking Wallace, Wallace was physically attacking Ron. You say it's because Wallace was mad, well, so was Artest after being shoved for a typical foul (a little harder than usual? Sure. But a reason to start a fight with a few seconds left? No.).

Quote:

3. He went after THE WRONG FAN. The moron that threw the cup did not get hit by Artest. It isn't like he saw the fan then went after him, he got hit by a cup, ran in the general direction, tackled a guy and asked him if he did it while hitting him. You say to stay in your seat, and not throw stuff, well, there were quite a few fans who did just that and were still hit/attacked.

Is it a fact that the fan Artest charged at was not the one who threw the cup? Do they have proof of who threw the cup? If they do, can you please send me a link, I didn't really follow it after the initial incident.
All the fans I saw get hit were NOT staying in their seats being coopertive. The old moron in the stands was punching Artest from behind, then Artest turned around and hit him back. The two fat idiots on the court were asking to get hit just by being on the court where they don't belong. And the rest of the fans who got hit were splashing their drinks at the Indi players.

Quote:

4. THERE IS NO REASON TO GO INTO THE STANDS. NONE.

There is also no reason to push someone violently for fouling you.
I will agree, he shouldn't have gone into the stands, but at the same time, I don't blame him for getting pissed. I'm sure most players would have done the same thing. He was already heated from Wallace's idiotic action, and the cup thrown at him pushed him over the edge. Just like you say Ben got angry, so did Ron.

Quote:

5. Everyone involved in that incident can share the blame. Ben shouldn't have overreacted, Ron shouldn't have charged into the stands/overreacted to a cup being thrown, the fans shouldn't have been retards, etc etc etc. Trying to place blame on just one party is ignorant of the entire situation.

Suspending Ron for the season whereas Wallace only got 6 games is ridiculous. If you want to put the blame in order, it should be 1. Wallace 2. Fans 3. Artest

You won't agree, but that is how I see it.

Quote:

6. "Being in the heat of the moment" is not an excuse for anything. Not a DAMN thing. Athletes have things thrown at them all the time (not that i'm justifying it). When they sign a contract, they are expected to uphold themselves in a civil manner, and when they don't they get suspended. Ron's life wasn't in danger. I bet the cup didn't even hurt. He just lost it, and should be punished and should take part of the blame.

It's not an excuse, but to be fair, he is still human and any normal human would get upset if they have shit thrown at them. I'm not justifying his actions, but I do understand it.

11-23-2004, 04:14 AM	#122 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	Ron Artest is on the Today show right not giving an interview. He is: A) Incredibly stupid B) Incredibly dumb C) Incredibly out of touch with reality Wow... he's just. Interesting interview. __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

11-23-2004, 05:17 AM	#123 (permalink)
pixelbend Too hot in the hot tub!	I heard some of his interview on SC. Heres a basic quote: "Do you think you acted in a responsible way, as a role model?" "I think you should review the tape and you should be able to answer your own questions." I never know why people go to an interview (or probably, in this case, request an interview) and then dance around all of the answers. __________________ But I don't want ANY Spam!

11-23-2004, 07:15 AM	#125 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	It was a damn paper/plastic cup of beer. Artest should have let the security guards handle it. He should have never gone into the stands. __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

11-23-2004, 08:38 AM	#127 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	Sadly you're completely right, Bill. As always __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

11-23-2004, 11:11 AM	#129 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	I hope there's a future trend where fans always throw beer at him. Kinda like those other "sports rivalries". In Detroit, some hockey team fucked up one of the Red Wings, and since then, they have been rivals. Same should be here. Whenever he plays here, fans should pelt him with beer. That would be hilarious. __________________ I love lamp.

11-23-2004, 07:02 AM	#124 (permalink)
Lefty04 Tilted	The NBA has to be reponsible for protecting the players while they are on the court (and going to and from the locker room). If a fan goes onto the court or throws anything, they should be arrested. If a player breaks that line and goes into the stands, they should get a minimum 30 day suspension. If a fan breaks that line and gets to a player on the court, I wouldn't punish the player for whatever he does.

11-23-2004, 10:35 AM	#128 (permalink)
Raleighbum Crazy Location: Lookin for that above	Is there still a working clip of the whole thing somewhere? anyone? I just saw a glimpse of it in the news...

11-23-2004, 11:49 AM	#133 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	The guy who threw the soda deserves just as much blame as Artest. Artest didn't even start the whole incident. He made a foul. Overly agressive, yes, but the Pistons player instigated it all. How many people would sit and do nothing if someone threw a cup of soda at them? Fans need to know that there are limits to what they can do. I have zero sympathy for the ones who stepped onto the court. They got what they deserved.

11-23-2004, 11:52 AM	#134 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Pan, throwing cups of soda goes beyond verbal abuse. So what if Artest was laid out on the scoring table. It's no excuse to start throwing items at him. If he had hit the right guy I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. None of this would have happened if the dude hadn't thrown the cup. He should be arrested for inciting a riot. Maybe in the future jackass fans will think twice before they throw something again.

11-23-2004, 12:09 PM	#135 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	What if the fan had thrown a bottle? A battery? A rock? He threw the cup because that's what was in his hand. Does that make it less of an assault? __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

11-23-2004, 01:01 PM	#136 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	you all gotta see this the cops will prolly confiscate "THE" weapon as evidence against the guy in the upcoming assault case... wow... just what i'd like for Christmas, maybe i can get artest to autograph it... "the cup that cost the pacers a season"

11-23-2004, 01:58 PM	#138 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Now it's selling for $99,999,999.00

11-24-2004, 11:09 AM	#147 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	I can't believe Green is still denying throwing the cup. The video is about as clear-cut as it comes. __________________ Go Pistons!

11-24-2004, 09:54 PM	#148 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	I hope the next time Artest steps onto a basketball court someone hurls another pint at him. See if he's learned a lesson.

11-24-2004, 11:16 PM	#149 (permalink)
BEG4MERCY Upright Location: down under	i hope the moron who is gonna throw something at artest next time gets his ass royally handed to him...even better if it was at a pacers home game and the fan was from the opposing team... :P

11-25-2004, 08:00 AM	#151 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Good article. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

11-25-2004, 02:07 PM	#152 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	I fully blame the fans for the mess. If they can't go to a game and act like normal people without hurling shit at the players, they deserve what they get. Its one thing to mock the players, but it is entirely different to throw cups and drinks on/at them. Wallace shouldn't have started anything to begin with, the foul was nothing out of the ordinary and he over reacted extremely. Artest kept his cool until some moronic fan decided to throw his cup at him. I think it is unfair for Artest to be considered the instigator, if anyone should be considered the instigator, it should be Wallace, followed by the fans. Had I been Artest, I probably would have gone after the guy who threw a cup at me as well; when you’re in the heat of the moment, you don’t think straight, and I believe most people would act in a similar fashion. On a side note, the look on that fans face who was jumping up and down like an idiot all excited changed so fast when Artest came his way, priceless. And what was the fat guy thinking coming ON to the court? He got knocked flat on his ass which he deserved as well. Stay in your seat next time and there won’t be a problem.

11-27-2004, 06:18 AM	#155 (permalink)
Cowman Psycho	Nimbletoe: No offence, but it's hard to take your posts seriously when your avatar is a picture of a Pistons logo. __________________ You don't like my point of view..but im insane

11-27-2004, 10:39 AM	#157 (permalink)
Cowman Psycho	I know your logo has been there a while, which is my point...it shows that you're a pistons fan..and being that some people here are arguing that it was the piston's fans that were the problem, then it would be understandable that you would argue against it whether or not there was any truth to it. Now, im not saying that the piston's fans were the problem, I'd rather not get into this argument...but your arguments are coming from an (understandably) deeply biased viewpoint... __________________ You don't like my point of view..but im insane

11-27-2004, 02:12 PM	#158 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	Perhaps you didn't read what I said. I would never, ever defend any fan, of a team that I like or not, of doing something stupid like that. __________________ Go Pistons!

11-27-2004, 02:13 PM	#159 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	that's a great quote: ESPN finally has its 9/11 __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]