2004 MLB Free Agent Class - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

djtestudo · 11-30-2004, 05:17 PM

Actually it should greatly PLEASE Halx, because he couldn't win a big game if he was playing in the Little League World Series.

kutulu · 12-07-2004, 03:48 PM

Nomar is staying with the Cubs. $8M plus incentives for one year. A steal for the Cubs. This makes ESPN somehting like 1-7 in their predictions so far. The only one they got right was Benson staying with the Mets...

pan6467 · 12-07-2004, 06:54 PM

Looks like Clement will be an Angel. According to WTAM 1100AM in Cleveland Clement's agent is claiming his client has narrowed the choices to Cleveland and Anaheim.

We all know that is so the Angels will up their bid a few pennies more and Cleveland can say they couldn't afford him.

Clement IMO is better than Pavano, Radke, or Odalis Perez, and on the same plane as Benson and Milton (perhaps better), so IF the Tribe do get Matt, I think they may have landed a pretty good starter.

Speaking of the AL Central, word going around the Cleveland media is there are 2 reason Ilitch has money to spend on the Tigers and make them a contender, those reasons:

1) Money unspent on his Redwings.

2) He is building up the Tigers to sell them.

While 1 to me sounds kind of ridiculous (the NHL owners lose money if there is no season, right?) 2 sounds more believable. I do hope it is 2 and Ilitch finds a buyer fast, Dolan sees this and does the same to the Indians.

thrsn0730 · 12-07-2004, 09:03 PM

As a Phillies phan, I can confirm that Clement is certainly better than Milton. While Milton was the Phils' best pitcher this year, he had terrific run support and seemed to get rocked at least every other start. I'd gladly lose Milton for Clement, though that looks next to impossible now.

Edit: Didn't want to double post, so here's a late FA add:

The latest from the FA front has the Yankees adding Tony Womack and Jaret Wright:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1940995

You'd think that sooner or later teams would realize not to go anywhere near a pitcher that the Braves let a pitcher go.

dylanmarsh · 12-07-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Nomar is staying with the Cubs. $8M plus incentives for one year. A steal for the Cubs. This makes ESPN somehting like 1-7 in their predictions so far. The only one they got right was Benson staying with the Mets...

It'll be a steal if Nomie can keep his gimpy heel healthy. This deal makes me wonder what sort of money/years Cabrera and Renteria are looking to get. I would think this leaves the Cubs searching for a SS next off-season, as well.

BTW, ESPN.com never gets anything right. Here's my not-so-bold predictions for the remaining SS: Cabrera to the Angels, Renteria stays in St. Louis, Jose Valentin and Placido Polanco both head to beantown.

dylanmarsh · 12-07-2004, 09:21 PM

LMAO

The Yankees decided to open the flood gates tonight and signed 35 year old Tony Womack to a 2-year contract (nice one, George). They're also supposedly close to signing Milton and Jaret Wright.

Also, Radke is back with the Twinkies for the next two years.

pan6467 · 12-07-2004, 09:36 PM

Actually seeing the Yankees signing Wright and Milton shows they are money stupid and I seriously doubt they will sign Martinez now.

Wright is NOT Yankee material, unless something in him has changed greatly, he'll more than likely end up a NY nightlife casualty. The talent that kid had when he first came to Cleveland and pissed away in the Flats.

As for Milton, again nothing in his stats or from what I have seen of him makes me think he is going to help the Yankees pass the BoSox. But we'll see.

I am very surprised at the Yankees choices. Clement and Benson were my 2 big pitchers this FA season. Of course the Yankees also went with Womack???? Is Cashman trying to sabotage the Yankees, he couldn't do a better job at it. Going after Lieber and Orlando Hernandez???? ESPN is either smoking something or King George is having his yes men sell him piles of bullshit. I'd take Odalis Perez over either of them.

Martinez I think with all his talk and selfishness, he'll be back in Boston.

djtestudo · 12-07-2004, 09:40 PM

Milton makes some sense, because Yankee Stadium is a little better then most places for a lefty pitcher, especially since the Yankees don't have one.

Wright, in New York, with that contract, is going to make Sidney Ponson with his contract look like Walter Johnson.

Joe Morgan at his age is probably a better option then Tony Womack at his age. Especially since Cairo was servicable for them.

What a dumb team.

dylanmarsh · 12-08-2004, 05:55 AM

The thing with the Womack signing is that for a little bit more money, they coulda had Placido Polanco who was been one of the more productive middle infielders in recent years and he isn't even 30:

2003 - .289/.352/.447/.799
2004 - .298/.345/.441/.786

I could see Milton succeeding but not 20 wins or even 15. He'll be the Jon Leiber of this team; 14 wins or less.

Wright will be the 2005 version of Jeff Weaver in pinstripes. 3 years at $21M is completely ridiculous for Wright. This is Cashman's final year -- maybe on earth.

(I'm beginning to love the Yankees' front office. There has to be a Sox fan in there somewhere.)

kutulu · 12-08-2004, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

(I'm beginning to love the Yankees' front office. There has to be a Sox fan in there somewhere.)

Me too. 21M for Wright. What a joke. The first two rules for signing free agents:

1) Don't sign a hitter that sucked, went to Colorado for a year and kicked ass. They will regress (a lot).

2) Don't sign a pitcher that sucked, went to the Braves for a year or two and 'resurrected' his career. He will regress.

The guys at Sabernomics concluded that Leo Mazzone has a 0.55-0.85 effect on a pitcher's ERA. That is one hell of an effect:

Quote:

So, what's the veridict? Leo Mazzone is a damn good coach! Working with Leo is shaves off between .55 and .85 points of a pitcher's ERA. And I promise you, the results are not some artifact of some manipulation of the numbers to prove a point. In fact, my bias when I started this project was that Leo was a bit overrated. To put this in perspective, the standard deviation of ERA for pitchers in the sample was 1.36. Leo's boys gain about half of a standard deviation on their ERA. I think Schuerholz ought to take this number into arbitration hearings with pitchers. Also interesting is the fact that the effect seems to go away when pitchers leave. This may be because Mazzone imparts useful everyday help, not just new knowledge to fix an old problem, or maybe the Braves know when to dump guys. In any event I think it's clear Rob Neyer was not exaggerating when he suggested Leo Mazzone ought be in the Hall of Fame.

Milton is bad for a #3 starter and good for a #4 starter. Somehow (*cough* run support *cough*) he won a bunch of games last year. Sadly, he'll get paid like a #2 starter.

I think Clement was the one of the best free agent pitchers on the market this year if you consider age, IP, 2004 ERA, career ERA, likeliness to sign with a new club, and expected competition from other clubs. I wish the DBakcs would have made him their #1 FA pitcher target. Instead, they are going after Russ Ortiz (see Mazzone rant above) and will probably give him more money than Clement will sign for.

pan6467 · 12-08-2004, 12:41 PM

Clement's offer in Cleveland is being reported at between 21-24 million for 3 years.

He's also a very very close friend of CC Sabathia (so they report) and if he signs CC would have been a major reason he even considered us to begin with. (Got to love the way the press sometimes build up athletes.)

I see Clement (if Cleveland truly wants him coming in for 4 years and 27 million). Not bad this day and age, and for the best FA pitcher out there not named Martinez it may really help Cleveland.

dylanmarsh · 12-08-2004, 01:26 PM

Another huge and horrible contract:

Jon Leiber: 3yrs, $21M with the Phillies

Also, Al Leiter signed with the Marlins for one-year.

And my beloved Red Sox (better known as God's Team), signed Matt Mantei to a one-year, $750K contract.

At this rate, Pedro and Pavano will probably get $50M a piece. I'm amazed at the contracts these middle of the road pitchers get in this day and age.

pan6467 · 12-08-2004, 01:39 PM

I still don't see anything in Pavano's past that is any indicater he is a great pitcher. He had 1 ONE good year...... where are these "he's right behind Pedro in attractiveness" stats. Sounds more like a one year wonder who in contract year went out and tried.

Before I'd give him a great contract I'd want to see him string together 2-3 more seasons IN A ROW like last season. THEN I'd consider him a #1 starter.

#45 Carl Pavano Florida Marlins | Roster | Statistics | MLB Index

Age: 28
Height: 6-5
Weight: 241 lbs.
Bats: Right
Throws: Right
Pos: SP

PITCHING STATISTICS
CAREER: BATTING | PITCHING | FIELDING
Season TM G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
1998 Mon 24 23 0 0 134.2 130 70 63 18 43 83 6 9 -- 4.21
1999 Mon 19 18 1 1 104.0 117 66 65 8 35 70 6 8 -- 5.63
2000 Mon 15 15 0 0 97.0 89 40 33 8 34 64 8 4 -- 3.06
2001 Mon 8 8 0 0 42.2 59 33 30 7 16 36 1 6 -- 6.33
2002 Mon 15 14 0 0 74.1 98 55 52 14 31 51 3 8 -- 6.30
2002 Fla 22 8 0 0 61.2 76 33 26 5 14 41 3 2 -- 3.80
2002 -- 37 22 0 0 136.0 174 88 78 19 45 92 6 10 -- 5.16
2003 Fla 33 32 2 0 201.0 204 99 96 19 49 133 12 13 -- 4.30
2004 Fla 31 31 2 2 222.1 212 80 74 16 49 139 18 8 -- 3.00
Total -- 167 149 5 3 937.2 985 476 439 95 271 617 57 58 -- 4.21

dylanmarsh · 12-08-2004, 01:47 PM

Pavano's has shown a workhorse mentality the past few years. He's physically built like Schilling and Clemens and his BB/K ratio has been pretty consistent. I'd pay him in the $30M range but he scares me like Neagle and Hampton did when they got their huge contracts. Some team will take the risk. I'm guessing the Tigers will scoop up either Pavano or Lowe.

jasonresno · 12-08-2004, 06:42 PM

Pavano=Overrated.

I think the "yankee hate mentality" really takes some credit out of some posters posts.

dylanmarsh · 12-08-2004, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonresno

I think the "yankee hate mentality" really takes some credit out of some posters posts.

Then refute it.

Steinbrenner is running the team into the ground with bad contracts and over-rated players. Jaret Wright is not worth $21M just as Kevin Brown wasn't worth the cost of dental insurance last season.

djtestudo · 12-08-2004, 09:08 PM

Carl Pavano:

Code:

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP   ERA *lgERA *ERA+
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
 1998 22 MON NL   6   9  24  23   0   0   0  0  134.7  130   70   63  18   43   83   8   1   580  4.21  4.11   98
 1999 23 MON NL   6   8  19  18   1   1   0  0  104.0  117   66   65   8   35   70   4   1   457  5.62  4.70   84
 2000 24 MON NL   8   4  15  15   0   0   0  0   97.0   89   40   33   8   34   64   8   1   408  3.06  4.64  151
 2001 25 MON NL   1   6   8   8   0   0   0  0   42.7   59   33   30   7   16   36   2   0   199  6.33  4.62   73
 2002 26 MON NL   3   8  15  14   0   0   0  0   74.3   98   55   52  14   31   51   7   2   350  6.30  4.16   66
         FLA NL   3   2  22   8   0   0   2  0   61.7   76   33   26   5   14   41   3   1   269  3.79  3.99  105
         TOT NL   6  10  37  22   0   0   2  0  136.0  174   88   78  19   45   92  10   3   619  5.16  4.08   79
 2003 27 FLA NL  12  13  33  32   2   0   1  0  201.0  204   99   96  19   49  133   7   3   846  4.30  4.03   94
 2004 28 FLA NL  18   8  31  31   2   2   0  0  222.3  212   80   74  16   49  139  11   2   909  3.00  4.10  137
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
  7 Yr WL% .496  57  58 167 149   5   3   3  0  937.7  985  476  439  95  271  617  50  11  4018  4.21  4.23  100
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
 162 Game Avg    12  12  35  32   1   0   0  0  201.7  211  102   94  20   58  132  10   2   864  4.21  4.23  100
 Career High     18  13  37  32   2   2   2  0  222.3  212   99   96  19   49  139  11   3   909  3.00  4.71  152

Sidney Ponson:

Code:

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP   ERA *lgERA *ERA+
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
 1998 21 BAL AL   8   9  31  20   0   0   5  1  135.0  157   82   79  19   42   85   3   4   588  5.27  4.52   86
 1999 22 BAL AL  12  12  32  32   6   0   0  0  210.0  227  118  110  35   80  112   1   4   897  4.71  4.82  102
 2000 23 BAL AL   9  13  32  32   6   1   0  0  222.0  223  125  119  30   83  152   1   5   953  4.82  4.72   98
 2001 24 BAL AL   5  10  23  23   3   1   0  0  138.3  161   83   76  21   37   84   6   2   605  4.94  4.21   85
 2002 25 BAL AL   7   9  28  28   3   0   0  0  176.0  172   84   80  26   63  120   2   3   736  4.09  4.38  107
 2003 26 BAL AL  14   6  21  21   4   0   0  0  148.0  147   65   62  10   43  100   4   6   622  3.77  4.35  115
         SFG NL   3   6  10  10   0   0   0  0   68.0   64   29   28   6   18   34   1   3   276  3.71  4.29  116
         TOT     17  12  31  31   4   0   0  0  216.0  211   94   90  16   61  134   5   9   898  3.75  4.33  115
 2004 27 BAL AL  11  15  33  33   5   2   0  0  215.7  265  136  127  23   69  115   8   8   954  5.30  4.78   90
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
  7 Yr WL% .463  69  80 210 199  27   4   5  1 1313.0 1416  722  681 170  435  802  26  35  5631  4.67  4.56   98
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
 162 Game Avg    11  13  34  33   4   0   0  0  218.0  235  120  113  28   72  133   4   5   936  4.67  4.56   98
 Career High     17  15  33  33   6   2   5  1  222.0  265  136  127  35   83  152   8   9   954  3.74  4.82  115

Notice how similar their career paths are: both had several years of inconsistant potential, a decent year, and a great contract year.

Ponson got $22.5 million last year, and promptly had one of the worst first-halves of a pitcher in the last ten years (though he pitched well later in the season).

Pavano will likely get at least 4 years, $40 million.

Risky pick.

dylanmarsh · 12-08-2004, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Notice how similar their career paths are: both had several years of inconsistant potential, a decent year, and a great contract year.

Ponson got $22.5 million last year, and promptly had one of the worst first-halves of a pitcher in the last ten years (though he pitched well later in the season).

Pavano will likely get at least 4 years, $40 million.

Risky pick.

There is one glaring thing that is left out of your analysis: Ponson weighs 500 lbs. I definitely agree, however, that Sid and Carl have gone down similar career paths. Ponson fluctuating weight has to be a factor when discussing them, though. I think if Pavano is smart and goes to Boston, he could learn quite a bit from Schilling and perhaps continue the upward trend of his career. Of course, Pavano might also benefit from a vet like Mussina, if George breaks the bank.

Pavano will get a minimum of $40M and possibly more if teams get desperate.

dylanmarsh · 12-09-2004, 07:43 AM

Troy Glaus signed a 4 year, $45M contract today with the Diamondbacks. I can think of worse places to spend the next four years than beautiful and sunny Arizona.

thrsn0730 · 12-09-2004, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

Troy Glaus signed a 4 year, $45M contract today with the Diamondbacks. I can think of worse places to spend the next four years than beautiful and sunny Arizona.

True ... as long as you don't mind playing for a team that loses around 100 games a year. And where in the world did they find that kind of coin? I thought the reason they were going to trade Randy Johnson and not bring back Sexson was they were in such bad financial shape.

thrsn0730 · 12-09-2004, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

The thing with the Womack signing is that for a little bit more money, they coulda had Placido Polanco who was been one of the more productive middle infielders in recent years and he isn't even 30:

2003 - .289/.352/.447/.799
2004 - .298/.345/.441/.786

I could see Milton succeeding but not 20 wins or even 15. He'll be the Jon Leiber of this team; 14 wins or less.

Wright will be the 2005 version of Jeff Weaver in pinstripes. 3 years at $21M is completely ridiculous for Wright. This is Cashman's final year -- maybe on earth.

(I'm beginning to love the Yankees' front office. There has to be a Sox fan in there somewhere.)

The only thing I can figure on the Polanco front is they were scared off by the Phillies offering arbitration. Of course, when have the Yankees ever worried about losing a draft pick or two?

djtestudo · 12-09-2004, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

There is one glaring thing that is left out of your analysis: Ponson weighs 500 lbs. I definitely agree, however, that Sid and Carl have gone down similar career paths. Ponson fluctuating weight has to be a factor when discussing them, though. I think if Pavano is smart and goes to Boston, he could learn quite a bit from Schilling and perhaps continue the upward trend of his career. Of course, Pavano might also benefit from a vet like Mussina, if George breaks the bank.

Pavano will get a minimum of $40M and possibly more if teams get desperate.

Pavano - 241
Ponson - 266

Not a severe difference there.

dylanmarsh · 12-09-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Pavano - 241
Ponson - 266

Not a severe difference there.

6'5" and 241 lbs. = 3.13 lbs/inch

6'1" and 266 lbs. = 3.64 lbs/inch

If Ponson was Pavano's height, he would weigh 280lbs. If Pavano was Ponson's height, he would weigh 228.5 lbs. So, yes, there is a pretty large difference. Just look at the pics! Ponson is a house!

thrsn0730 · 12-09-2004, 09:17 AM

The only thing about Ponson's weight is this: He's listed at 266. Having seen him pitch a couple of times late last year, either the camera adds 30 pounds or he's at least 280.

kutulu · 12-09-2004, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

And my beloved Red Sox (better known as God's Team), signed Matt Mantei to a one-year, $750K contract.

Nobody commented on that signing, but I LOVE that deal for the Red Sox. It has the potential to be the best bullpend aquisitions in the offseason. If he stays healthy (BIG if) he will be just as good as or better than Foulke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrsn0730

True ... as long as you don't mind playing for a team that loses around 100 games a year. And where in the world did they find that kind of coin? I thought the reason they were going to trade Randy Johnson and not bring back Sexson was they were in such bad financial shape.

First of all, the 110 losses was an arberation. Take a team and remove a 40HR slugger, destroy the LF'ers throwing arm (which fucks his offensive game up too), trade away one of the top CF's in the game, and then add injuries to both catchers, your 2B, two starting pitchers and replace all of those guys with AAA and AA players and see if any team can avoid that record. It was train wreck after train wreck last year. This year could be totally different.

Finding that money was no problem. We have three players under contract for 2005 (RJ-16, Gonzo-10, Webb-about 2) and lots of young pre-arbitration players that can make big contributions. That is 28M and we plan on having a payroll of about 75M.

We've tried out hardest to resign Sexson to a fair contract for both sides. We offered 3yr/30M but we tied some of the first two years' money to him staying healthy. He wouldn't take it. We did offer arbitration to Richie but I doubt he'll take it. If he did we'd have one hell of a middle of the lineup.

The only word on trading RJ came from RJ himself. He wants out and the team wants to keep him. We told him we'd try to accomidate him so we've tried to make deals. Basically we set the price so high that nobody will take it, therefore he'll probably stay which is fine with the management.

I have mixed feelings about the Glaus signing. Although we can afford him, we have somewhere around $150M in deferred salaries that we owe. There is loads of talent in the farm system (superstar types) that are going to make an impact by 2007. I would have been fine with staying in last place for two years and getting rid of the deferred money ASAP.

thrsn0730 · 12-09-2004, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I have mixed feelings about the Glaus signing. Although we can afford him, we have somewhere around $150M in deferred salaries that we owe. There is loads of talent in the farm system (superstar types) that are going to make an impact by 2007. I would have been fine with staying in last place for two years and getting rid of the deferred money ASAP.

Wow, that's a lot of deferred money. I guess the Glaus signing just blew my mind because it looked like the kind of signing you make when you think you're just a player away from doing something big and not coming off a 100-loss season.

Of course, it doesn't take much any more for a team to go from last to first.

djtestudo · 12-09-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrsn0730

The only thing about Ponson's weight is this: He's listed at 266. Having seen him pitch a couple of times late last year, either the camera adds 30 pounds or he's at least 280.

Hey now, there's a LOT of cameras at a baseball game

Seriously though, I could (and have in the past elsewhere) post a list of pitchers who are around/over Ponson's weight and pitch well. For example: Cleveland Browns offensive lineman...I mean, Cleveland Indians starting pitcher C.C Sabathia, at 6-7 290, or 3.67 ibs/inch.

Weight means very little.

dylanmarsh · 12-09-2004, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Weight means very little.

You're right, we should be talking about Body Fat% versus Muscle.

djtestudo · 12-09-2004, 12:45 PM

Bastard...

Seriously, though, apparently the Orioles are deep in discussions for Tim Hudson, so I'm worried about that right now

kutulu · 12-09-2004, 12:51 PM

Look at Curt Schilling and Bartolo Colon. Both have had weight issues but Curt and to a lesser extent, Colon, have not been affected by their weight. I do see the similarity between the career paths of Ponson and Pavano. Pavano would be a fine #3 starter but a team would be insane to rely on him to be their ace. I'd also be cautious of having him be my second best pitcher. Don't forget that he pitched in a pretty good pitchers park also.

He also isn't the workhorse people make him out to be. He's only hit 200 inning twice last year. And really, 200 innings isn't that great. All it means is that you didn't get hurt and were effective enought to go at least 6 innings with the occasional 7, 8 or complete game. I compare him to Miguel Batista last season. He's had his ups and downs over the years but in his contract year he put up career numbers. The only real difference is 4 years (which can be a big deal depending on your view of aging). Batista got a 3yr/13M deal. It really shows the difference between this years market adn last years market. Everybody is overpaying for sightly above average talent this year.

dylanmarsh · 12-09-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Bastard...

Seriously, though, apparently the Orioles are deep in discussions for Tim Hudson, so I'm worried about that right now

You know, Hudson does kinda worry me. He's not built all that well, I think he weighs like 160 or something, and I wonder if he might run into the Pedro syndrome where he can't go beyond 7 innings or 100 pitches. In fact, Pedro has him by 25 lbs. I think that could be one of the concerns/reasons why the A's are trying to unload him and not someone else like Zito.

*edit*

Jeff Kent signed with the Dodgers.

Steve Finley with the Angels and Russ Ortiz with the D-Backs also inked deals.

djtestudo · 12-11-2004, 04:19 PM

Pavano to Yankees; four years, $44 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?...mlb&id=1944227

Jeez, if they wanted Sidney Ponson THAT bad, I'm sure they could have worked out a deal with the Orioles

jasonresno · 12-12-2004, 10:06 AM

Yankees and Pavano have come to terms on a 4 year 39 million dollar contract with an option for a fifth year. Sweet.

EDIT:
It was 44 million?

thrsn0730 · 12-12-2004, 01:18 PM

As to Hudson, his former pitching coach Rick Peterson (sp?) has concerns about his delivery. Apparently as part of their pre-hab, Hudson had his delivery checked out by computer in Alabama. System said the force produced by his hips was off the charts and could lead to back problems in the future.

Take it FWIW, obviously.

dylanmarsh · 12-13-2004, 12:37 PM

Looks like Richie Sexson is escaping Arizona for the M's and, in turn, is solidifying one of the worst trades made in the history of baseball. The D-Backs gave up Spivey, Overbay, Counsel, Moeller, Capanuano, de la Rosa and cash for a couple of minor leaguers and two months of Richie Sexson.

kutulu · 12-13-2004, 01:43 PM

The only thing that bugs me about Sexson leaving was his crap line about wanting to play for a winner. The M's are no more of a winner than the DBacks.

Esen · 12-13-2004, 05:18 PM

Well it looks like Seson and Delgado might both wind up with the M's
and I can't believe iy, but there is actually a realistic chance that Pedro will wind up with the MEts.
I would say at this point it is like a 90% chance he will be a met. of course until all is signed and done a 10% margin is still huge.
We will see.
Now if they were able to ditch piazza and get soem money up for Beltran that would be nice!

Honestly with Pedro as a met, there pitching staff is not really that bad.
1) Pedro
2) Glavine
3) Trachel
4) Benson
5) Zambrano

Now a lot of people may rag on both Benson ans Zambrano. but as 4th and 5th spot pitchers that is incredible! really you got to step back and say for 4th and 5th spot pitchers that is really nice.

On many teams they would be forced to be 2 and 3 pitchers. so you got to give the mets credit.

And even if Glavine and Traschel leave within 2 years, they will still have Martinez, Benson and Zambrano. that is a nice core to build around.

I dispise Boston but I am proud of the Mets if they pick up Pedro.
I mean shoot he is only 34. Even as a Hard thrower I think he can give them Mets for good years.

Also it would be rad to see him batting against the Yankees in an interleague game , can anyone say the most hit pitcher of all time.

I think for that chance alone the Yankees should help pay part of his contract. just so they can throw at him when he is batting.

I wonder if he thought about that?

If the Mets really want to make this the real deal they will go out and make ther relief pitching the strongest in all of baseball and go and make Pedro a 6 inning only pitcher.

pan6467 · 12-13-2004, 05:44 PM

Benson isn't a bad pitcher. In fact I truly believe he will be an ace very soon. Zambrano is young and getting better every year great k potential in both of them.

Glavine still has some life, Pedro is Pedro and you never truly know how long he'll pitch before injury, but as far as K power pitchers go he's in his prime.

The only pitcher I don't like on the Mets staff is Trachsel. I think he's overrated but as a 4th or 5th he's damn good.... as a 1, 2 or 3 SP he sucks.

I love my Indians and I love my Reds, who are far too quiet this year "LIDNER SPEND SOME FUCKING MONEY YOU HAVE A DECENT TEAM THAT CAN COMPETE, JUST GET A STARTER YA TIGHTWAD." But it does my heart good to see the Yankees take chumps like Pavano while the Mets grab up Pedro....

guy44 · 12-14-2004, 09:09 AM

At best it is a solid rotation. Pedro is, of course, a legitimate ace. Depending on which Glavine shows up, they may have a real #2. But Benson (overrated), Zambrano (WAY overrated), and Trachsel are not #3s. It is solid, yes. Better than last year. But not equal to the A's, the Yanks, the Red Sox, the Cubs, and probably some other teams depending on how the rest of the winter shakes out.

godxzilla · 12-15-2004, 06:44 AM

blah - im behind. had something to add then lost it after reading the whole thread

Just update the main list with the latest signs.

11-30-2004, 05:17 PM	#41 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Actually it should greatly PLEASE Halx, because he couldn't win a big game if he was playing in the Little League World Series. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

12-07-2004, 06:54 PM	#43 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Looks like Clement will be an Angel. According to WTAM 1100AM in Cleveland Clement's agent is claiming his client has narrowed the choices to Cleveland and Anaheim. We all know that is so the Angels will up their bid a few pennies more and Cleveland can say they couldn't afford him. Clement IMO is better than Pavano, Radke, or Odalis Perez, and on the same plane as Benson and Milton (perhaps better), so IF the Tribe do get Matt, I think they may have landed a pretty good starter. Speaking of the AL Central, word going around the Cleveland media is there are 2 reason Ilitch has money to spend on the Tigers and make them a contender, those reasons: 1) Money unspent on his Redwings. 2) He is building up the Tigers to sell them. While 1 to me sounds kind of ridiculous (the NHL owners lose money if there is no season, right?) 2 sounds more believable. I do hope it is 2 and Ilitch finds a buyer fast, Dolan sees this and does the same to the Indians. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

12-07-2004, 09:03 PM	#44 (permalink)
thrsn0730 Crazy Location: Mount Pleasant, SC	As a Phillies phan, I can confirm that Clement is certainly better than Milton. While Milton was the Phils' best pitcher this year, he had terrific run support and seemed to get rocked at least every other start. I'd gladly lose Milton for Clement, though that looks next to impossible now. Edit: Didn't want to double post, so here's a late FA add: The latest from the FA front has the Yankees adding Tony Womack and Jaret Wright: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1940995 You'd think that sooner or later teams would realize not to go anywhere near a pitcher that the Braves let a pitcher go. Last edited by thrsn0730; 12-07-2004 at 09:08 PM..

12-07-2004, 09:21 PM	#46 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	LMAO The Yankees decided to open the flood gates tonight and signed 35 year old Tony Womack to a 2-year contract (nice one, George). They're also supposedly close to signing Milton and Jaret Wright. Also, Radke is back with the Twinkies for the next two years. Last edited by dylanmarsh; 12-07-2004 at 09:25 PM..

12-07-2004, 09:36 PM	#47 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Actually seeing the Yankees signing Wright and Milton shows they are money stupid and I seriously doubt they will sign Martinez now. Wright is NOT Yankee material, unless something in him has changed greatly, he'll more than likely end up a NY nightlife casualty. The talent that kid had when he first came to Cleveland and pissed away in the Flats. As for Milton, again nothing in his stats or from what I have seen of him makes me think he is going to help the Yankees pass the BoSox. But we'll see. I am very surprised at the Yankees choices. Clement and Benson were my 2 big pitchers this FA season. Of course the Yankees also went with Womack???? Is Cashman trying to sabotage the Yankees, he couldn't do a better job at it. Going after Lieber and Orlando Hernandez???? ESPN is either smoking something or King George is having his yes men sell him piles of bullshit. I'd take Odalis Perez over either of them. Martinez I think with all his talk and selfishness, he'll be back in Boston. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

12-07-2004, 03:48 PM	#42 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Nomar is staying with the Cubs. $8M plus incentives for one year. A steal for the Cubs. This makes ESPN somehting like 1-7 in their predictions so far. The only one they got right was Benson staying with the Mets...

12-07-2004, 09:40 PM	#48 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Milton makes some sense, because Yankee Stadium is a little better then most places for a lefty pitcher, especially since the Yankees don't have one. Wright, in New York, with that contract, is going to make Sidney Ponson with his contract look like Walter Johnson. Joe Morgan at his age is probably a better option then Tony Womack at his age. Especially since Cairo was servicable for them. What a dumb team. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

12-08-2004, 05:55 AM	#49 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	The thing with the Womack signing is that for a little bit more money, they coulda had Placido Polanco who was been one of the more productive middle infielders in recent years and he isn't even 30: 2003 - .289/.352/.447/.799 2004 - .298/.345/.441/.786 I could see Milton succeeding but not 20 wins or even 15. He'll be the Jon Leiber of this team; 14 wins or less. Wright will be the 2005 version of Jeff Weaver in pinstripes. 3 years at $21M is completely ridiculous for Wright. This is Cashman's final year -- maybe on earth. (I'm beginning to love the Yankees' front office. There has to be a Sox fan in there somewhere.)

12-08-2004, 12:41 PM	#51 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Clement's offer in Cleveland is being reported at between 21-24 million for 3 years. He's also a very very close friend of CC Sabathia (so they report) and if he signs CC would have been a major reason he even considered us to begin with. (Got to love the way the press sometimes build up athletes.) I see Clement (if Cleveland truly wants him coming in for 4 years and 27 million). Not bad this day and age, and for the best FA pitcher out there not named Martinez it may really help Cleveland. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

12-08-2004, 01:26 PM	#52 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Another huge and horrible contract: Jon Leiber: 3yrs, $21M with the Phillies Also, Al Leiter signed with the Marlins for one-year. And my beloved Red Sox (better known as God's Team), signed Matt Mantei to a one-year, $750K contract. At this rate, Pedro and Pavano will probably get $50M a piece. I'm amazed at the contracts these middle of the road pitchers get in this day and age. Last edited by dylanmarsh; 12-08-2004 at 02:06 PM..

12-08-2004, 01:39 PM	#53 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I still don't see anything in Pavano's past that is any indicater he is a great pitcher. He had 1 ONE good year...... where are these "he's right behind Pedro in attractiveness" stats. Sounds more like a one year wonder who in contract year went out and tried. Before I'd give him a great contract I'd want to see him string together 2-3 more seasons IN A ROW like last season. THEN I'd consider him a #1 starter. #45 Carl Pavano Florida Marlins \| Roster \| Statistics \| MLB Index Age: 28 Height: 6-5 Weight: 241 lbs. Bats: Right Throws: Right Pos: SP PITCHING STATISTICS CAREER: BATTING \| PITCHING \| FIELDING Season TM G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA 1998 Mon 24 23 0 0 134.2 130 70 63 18 43 83 6 9 -- 4.21 1999 Mon 19 18 1 1 104.0 117 66 65 8 35 70 6 8 -- 5.63 2000 Mon 15 15 0 0 97.0 89 40 33 8 34 64 8 4 -- 3.06 2001 Mon 8 8 0 0 42.2 59 33 30 7 16 36 1 6 -- 6.33 2002 Mon 15 14 0 0 74.1 98 55 52 14 31 51 3 8 -- 6.30 2002 Fla 22 8 0 0 61.2 76 33 26 5 14 41 3 2 -- 3.80 2002 -- 37 22 0 0 136.0 174 88 78 19 45 92 6 10 -- 5.16 2003 Fla 33 32 2 0 201.0 204 99 96 19 49 133 12 13 -- 4.30 2004 Fla 31 31 2 2 222.1 212 80 74 16 49 139 18 8 -- 3.00 Total -- 167 149 5 3 937.2 985 476 439 95 271 617 57 58 -- 4.21 __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 12-08-2004 at 01:43 PM..

12-08-2004, 01:47 PM	#54 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Pavano's has shown a workhorse mentality the past few years. He's physically built like Schilling and Clemens and his BB/K ratio has been pretty consistent. I'd pay him in the $30M range but he scares me like Neagle and Hampton did when they got their huge contracts. Some team will take the risk. I'm guessing the Tigers will scoop up either Pavano or Lowe.

12-08-2004, 06:42 PM	#55 (permalink)
jasonresno Banned	Pavano=Overrated. I think the "yankee hate mentality" really takes some credit out of some posters posts.

12-09-2004, 07:43 AM	#59 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Troy Glaus signed a 4 year, $45M contract today with the Diamondbacks. I can think of worse places to spend the next four years than beautiful and sunny Arizona.

12-09-2004, 09:17 AM	#64 (permalink)
thrsn0730 Crazy Location: Mount Pleasant, SC	The only thing about Ponson's weight is this: He's listed at 266. Having seen him pitch a couple of times late last year, either the camera adds 30 pounds or he's at least 280.

12-09-2004, 12:45 PM	#69 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Bastard... Seriously, though, apparently the Orioles are deep in discussions for Tim Hudson, so I'm worried about that right now __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

12-09-2004, 12:51 PM	#70 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Look at Curt Schilling and Bartolo Colon. Both have had weight issues but Curt and to a lesser extent, Colon, have not been affected by their weight. I do see the similarity between the career paths of Ponson and Pavano. Pavano would be a fine #3 starter but a team would be insane to rely on him to be their ace. I'd also be cautious of having him be my second best pitcher. Don't forget that he pitched in a pretty good pitchers park also. He also isn't the workhorse people make him out to be. He's only hit 200 inning twice last year. And really, 200 innings isn't that great. All it means is that you didn't get hurt and were effective enought to go at least 6 innings with the occasional 7, 8 or complete game. I compare him to Miguel Batista last season. He's had his ups and downs over the years but in his contract year he put up career numbers. The only real difference is 4 years (which can be a big deal depending on your view of aging). Batista got a 3yr/13M deal. It really shows the difference between this years market adn last years market. Everybody is overpaying for sightly above average talent this year.

12-11-2004, 04:19 PM	#72 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Pavano to Yankees; four years, $44 million. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?...mlb&id=1944227 Jeez, if they wanted Sidney Ponson THAT bad, I'm sure they could have worked out a deal with the Orioles __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

12-12-2004, 10:06 AM	#73 (permalink)
jasonresno Banned	Yankees and Pavano have come to terms on a 4 year 39 million dollar contract with an option for a fifth year. Sweet. EDIT: It was 44 million? Last edited by jasonresno; 12-12-2004 at 10:10 AM..

12-12-2004, 01:18 PM	#74 (permalink)
thrsn0730 Crazy Location: Mount Pleasant, SC	As to Hudson, his former pitching coach Rick Peterson (sp?) has concerns about his delivery. Apparently as part of their pre-hab, Hudson had his delivery checked out by computer in Alabama. System said the force produced by his hips was off the charts and could lead to back problems in the future. Take it FWIW, obviously.

12-13-2004, 12:37 PM	#75 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Looks like Richie Sexson is escaping Arizona for the M's and, in turn, is solidifying one of the worst trades made in the history of baseball. The D-Backs gave up Spivey, Overbay, Counsel, Moeller, Capanuano, de la Rosa and cash for a couple of minor leaguers and two months of Richie Sexson.

12-13-2004, 01:43 PM	#76 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	The only thing that bugs me about Sexson leaving was his crap line about wanting to play for a winner. The M's are no more of a winner than the DBacks.

12-13-2004, 05:18 PM	#77 (permalink)
Esen TFPer formaly known as Chauncey Location: North East	Well it looks like Seson and Delgado might both wind up with the M's and I can't believe iy, but there is actually a realistic chance that Pedro will wind up with the MEts. I would say at this point it is like a 90% chance he will be a met. of course until all is signed and done a 10% margin is still huge. We will see. Now if they were able to ditch piazza and get soem money up for Beltran that would be nice! Honestly with Pedro as a met, there pitching staff is not really that bad. 1) Pedro 2) Glavine 3) Trachel 4) Benson 5) Zambrano Now a lot of people may rag on both Benson ans Zambrano. but as 4th and 5th spot pitchers that is incredible! really you got to step back and say for 4th and 5th spot pitchers that is really nice. On many teams they would be forced to be 2 and 3 pitchers. so you got to give the mets credit. And even if Glavine and Traschel leave within 2 years, they will still have Martinez, Benson and Zambrano. that is a nice core to build around. I dispise Boston but I am proud of the Mets if they pick up Pedro. I mean shoot he is only 34. Even as a Hard thrower I think he can give them Mets for good years. Also it would be rad to see him batting against the Yankees in an interleague game , can anyone say the most hit pitcher of all time. I think for that chance alone the Yankees should help pay part of his contract. just so they can throw at him when he is batting. I wonder if he thought about that? If the Mets really want to make this the real deal they will go out and make ther relief pitching the strongest in all of baseball and go and make Pedro a 6 inning only pitcher. __________________ ~Esen What is everyone doing in my room?

12-13-2004, 05:44 PM	#78 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Benson isn't a bad pitcher. In fact I truly believe he will be an ace very soon. Zambrano is young and getting better every year great k potential in both of them. Glavine still has some life, Pedro is Pedro and you never truly know how long he'll pitch before injury, but as far as K power pitchers go he's in his prime. The only pitcher I don't like on the Mets staff is Trachsel. I think he's overrated but as a 4th or 5th he's damn good.... as a 1, 2 or 3 SP he sucks. I love my Indians and I love my Reds, who are far too quiet this year "LIDNER SPEND SOME FUCKING MONEY YOU HAVE A DECENT TEAM THAT CAN COMPETE, JUST GET A STARTER YA TIGHTWAD." But it does my heart good to see the Yankees take chumps like Pavano while the Mets grab up Pedro.... __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

12-14-2004, 09:09 AM	#79 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	At best it is a solid rotation. Pedro is, of course, a legitimate ace. Depending on which Glavine shows up, they may have a real #2. But Benson (overrated), Zambrano (WAY overrated), and Trachsel are not #3s. It is solid, yes. Better than last year. But not equal to the A's, the Yanks, the Red Sox, the Cubs, and probably some other teams depending on how the rest of the winter shakes out. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

12-15-2004, 06:44 AM	#80 (permalink)
godxzilla Crazy Location: Columbus, OH	blah - im behind. had something to add then lost it after reading the whole thread Just update the main list with the latest signs. __________________ Mike Last edited by godxzilla; 12-15-2004 at 07:08 AM..