Should Sports That Require Judging be in the Olympics - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sticky · 08-23-2004, 01:55 PM

Another situation that shows the flaws in judged events at the olympics.
http://www.canada.com/sports/insidea...b-f81e2b63eb80

Quote:

Canada protesting vault result

Jim Morris
Canadian Press

Monday, August 23, 2004

ATHENS -- Canada launched a protest in Olympic gymnastics Monday, arguing that the Romanian who knocked Calgary 's Kyle Shewfelt off the podium in vault was improperly marked.

The effect of the appeal was unclear, however. Normally appeals are limited to your own gymnast's marks rather than those of a rival gymnast and Canadian coach Tony Smith told CBC that the appeal had initially been rejected.

Adding to the intrigue was the fact that the appeal was turned down by the men's technical director of the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) - a Romanian.

Canadian officials pledged to keep fighting. However, it was unclear what their next step was.

''I think he deserved the bronze,'' J.P. Caron, president and CEO of Gymnastics Canada, said of Shewfelt.

Shewfelt, who won the gold in Sunday's floor exercise, fell to fourth in the vault when Marian Dragulescu, the last competitor, got better marks despite the fact the Romanian slid sideways off the mat landing his second vault.

Despite the slip, the judges gave Dragulescu a 9.325. Dragulescu had nailed his first vault, earning a 9.900. That translated into a final score of 9.612.

Shewfelt's first vault earned a mark of 9.687, with the second worth 9.512 for a final mark of 9.599.

''We believe the score of Dragulescu was mathematically impossible,'' said Caron.

''His start value is a 9.9 and based on what we've seen, a fall with two hands on the floor, plus he also has a few steps on top of that, would be at least a minimum of .7 deduction.''

Canadian officials argued that the Romanian's maximum score from the second vault should have been 9.1.

''We ask that you rectify this injustice to avoid continuing scandal over the judging at these Olympics,'' Caron said in his protest letter.

The Canadian protest is just the latest fly in the Olympics gymnastics' ointment.

South Korea is up in arms over a scoring error that gave American Paul Hamm the all-around title over Yang Tae-young.

Shewfelt's vault marks initially were good enough to put him in second, with two gymnasts to go.

Defending champion Gervasio Deferr of Spain pushed him back down into third. Then Dragulescu knocked him off the podium completely.

Deferr won the gold with a score of 9.737. Latvia's Evgeni Sapronenko won the silver with 9.706 and Dragulescu the bronze with 9.612.

Shewfelt had edged Dragulescu for the floor gold on a judges' countback after the two finished with the same score.

Despite the scoring brouhaha, Shewfelt was gracious in his fourth-place finish.

''I feel great, I feel good. It's unfortunate I couldn't have gotten another medal today. But I came and accomplished my goal,'' Shewfelt said. ''I wanted to put both vaults on my feet. Yesterday was huge, history-making and I'm really going to focus on that.''

''I felt like I was flying out there, I didn't have the best sleep last night because my life goal was accomplished, I felt great. Coming into the gym today I felt very comfortable.''

Shewfelt, the first Canadian to win an Olympic artistic gymnastic medal, came to Athens with top credentials. He won bronze medals in floor and vault at the 2003 World Championships, and gold medals in floor and vault at the 2002 Commonwealth Games.

He was 12th in the floor competition at the 2000 Games in Sydney.

The last Canadian man to win two individual medals at a Games was swimmer Curtis Myden. He picked up bronze in the 200 and 400 IM at Atlanta in 1996.

Shewfelt says he's not sure about his future in gymnastics.

''There are lots of options, I love gymnastics at this point more than I ever have.''

djtestudo · 08-23-2004, 07:07 PM

I believe that subjective scoring is a bad idea in anything. I don't think any "sport" that uses it should be in the Olympics.

I think that, for things like gymnastics, figure skating, diving, etc., there should be a certain point value assigned for various moves and you get scored based on that. I don't know how feasible it is, but I think it would be better then the corruptable scoring now.

Sticky · 08-24-2004, 09:30 AM

Here is another one, I am not sure how much attention this is getting in the U.S.

Quote:

Korea fighting for gymnastics gold
Sunday, August 22, 2004 Posted: 8:01 AM EDT (1201 GMT)

Hamm flanked by his South Korean rivals with Yang Tae-young on right

ATHENS, Greece (Reuters) -- South Korea will gather video evidence before lodging an appeal with the Court of Arbitration for Sport after scoring errors robbed Yang Tae-young of Olympic gold.

Paul Hamm, who became the first American man to win the Olympic all-round title, should not have been awarded the gold the governing body of gymnastics (FIG) ruled on Saturday.

But FIG -- they suspended three judges including an Ameruican -- said Hamm would keep his medal despite the mistake that cost bronze medalist Yang the title.

However, a CAS spokesman said the court did not normally adjudicate on disputes over a scoring issue:

"CAS practice is quite clear. It refuses to enter into a scoring dispute unless there's been a case of bribery and this is not the case regarding the gymnastics dispute," he said.

"But we will look at the case once it is filed."

The FIG admitted Yang had been unfairly docked a tenth of a point from his parallel bars routine during the all-round final, which left Hamm claiming the crown with a score of 57.823. Yang finished third on 57.774.

However, had Yang been credited with the correct difficulty score, the South Korean would have finished with a total of 57.874, 0.051 of a point ahead of his American rival.

Without the mistake, Hamm would have earned silver and Yang's team-mate Kim Dae-eun would also have dropped a place to bronze.

According to the rules of the federation, competitors can query the start value of a performance but it must be made no later than one rotation after the routine in question.

FIG said the South Koreans failed to lodge a protest in time. However, the South Koreans state they noticed the error immediately but were asked to file their complaint after the competition had ended.

Despite CAS's reaction, the South Korean official added: "We are not just talking about a scoring error here. It's not as clear cut as that. The FIG have admitted their mistake and we want our athlete to get what he deserves."

kutulu · 08-24-2004, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

I believe that subjective scoring is a bad idea in anything. I don't think any "sport" that uses it should be in the Olympics.

I think that, for things like gymnastics, figure skating, diving, etc., there should be a certain point value assigned for various moves and you get scored based on that. I don't know how feasible it is, but I think it would be better then the corruptable scoring now.

That's more or less how it's currently done. Each routine has a starting value. That value represents the best score you can get if everything is perfect. Being perfect is more than just doing the moves. It includes things like how straight your body is, how tightly you are tucked, how pointed your toes are, etc. There are a lot of details that cannot be seen by casual observers and even well educated fans watching from a distance.

Scoring is the only way to determine the best performance in things like diving and gymnastics. There are disadvantages though. Your place in line can also greatly affect your score. Because scores are given after each routine, they need to be sure that someone else with the same routine going after you needs to be able to get a better score if they do a better job. It puts more pressure on the early people and lets the last person know exactly what they need to win. Instead of assigning scores after each routine, I'd rather they waited till everyone is done. After all routines are done, the judges convene and decide the scores.

I also have a problem with how the panel can be influenced by nationalities. There is fairness in that the highest and lowest scores are thrown out and wide differences need to be negotiated and defended. Overall, I think it would be better if there was only one score which was agreed upon by all judges rather than a canadian, american, russian, french, etc. individually giving scores that are averaged.

Currently video review is not allowed. I think it should be included.

Although these ideas could make the judging more fair, it would also eliminate the instant gratification of knowing who wins right away. OTOH, it would increase the drama because you don't know what the placements are before the last two routines are performed.

crackpot · 08-24-2004, 12:51 PM

Bloody Olympics... they've been swearing to clean up their act for ages now. Not just the judging, but the way in which they grant cities "host" status too. Those old fools are too dependent on the gifts/privileges/payola to change their habits, it seems. Whatever the "Olympic spirit" is, I know it sure as hell doesn't have a place in the back rooms of the higher-ups.
Ugh, did that make sense? I need another drink I think. Cheers.

absorbentishe · 08-24-2004, 12:59 PM

I can't say one way or the other. I'm a gymnastic fan and would hate to see it leave the olympics. But does this apply to basketball with the referee, or baseball/softball with umpires? How strikes are called one day is different from the next. Every event is subjective is some way.

kutulu · 08-24-2004, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by absorbentishe

How strikes are called one day is different from the next.

or one batter to the next. The strike zone Barry Bonds gets is much smaller than the strike zone a rookie hitter gets. Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux get a couple inches off the black, rookie pitchers don't even get the black.

CandleInTheDark · 08-24-2004, 03:56 PM

i think subjective scoring is necessary in artistic sports. Freezing in place what an athlete needs to win restricts progression of these sports. At the very least I would hate to see half-pipe snowboarding removed from the Olympics, or have a tightly bound scoring system.

BigGov · 08-24-2004, 05:08 PM

Nope. I don't consider Figure Skating or Gymnastics real sports. I put them in the catagory along with Professional Wrestling. Hear me out. The most popular and best performing Professional Wrestlers get the title belts and all the attention. Same with Figure Skating and Gymnastics. Other sports that fall into this catagory: Skateboarding, Snowboarding, Freestyle Moto-X, Diving, etc. Some are damn good athletic activities, and some are very interesting to watch, but they're just not sports.

A strike zone is baseball is a rule. I can be very easily enforced by anyone who follows the rules. Pass interference in football is a rule, it can be easily enforced. The judging in Gymnastics is everything. It's the rule, the scoreboard, the game, the season. Everything.

Meanwhile, they will never be removed from the olympics. Unless you can find some way to bring in billions of dollars only on sports.

absorbentishe · 08-24-2004, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigGov

The judging in Gymnastics is everything. It's the rule, the scoreboard, the game, the season. Everything.

Judging is subjective, yes and no. But it all boils down to the judge seeing everything in a split second. He or she may have looked at their score sheet when a bonus move was made, thus not seeing, this happens all the time. The difference is all the cameras, slow mo's etc that make every one except the judge, and arm chair judge.

In gymnastics, there are certain skills that are required in each event. If a person adds a little extra, it doesn't mean it was bonus. There are skills that are spelled out that constitue bonus. Granted the judges spend hours reviewing everything, it is possible to miss things.

Sorry, I guess I'm just not putting into words what I'm really thinking here...

djtestudo · 08-24-2004, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by absorbentishe

I can't say one way or the other. I'm a gymnastic fan and would hate to see it leave the olympics. But does this apply to basketball with the referee, or baseball/softball with umpires? How strikes are called one day is different from the next. Every event is subjective is some way.

That is completely different. In order for that comparison to work, in baseball the umpire would give a certain number of bases/runs to a batter based on how well he hit the ball, where the pitch was, etc. For basketball, the ref would give points based on his opinion of the difficulty of the shot.

Competitions like gymnastics are based completely on the opinions of the judges. There might be certain things that are set out as penalties, but most of it is completely subjective from what I can tell.

Spartak · 08-25-2004, 04:07 AM

I had a brilliant idea..

For sports that require judging (gym, diving, figure skating etc). Incorporate sensors into the outfits of the competitors (or in the case of diving.. figure something out

), these sensors are then picked up by several cameras around the arena (like they do motion capture for video games). All these cameras are connected to a computer which has a huge database of various possible moves performed in the most perfect way. After the competitor completes their routine, the computer analyses all the moves in terms of perfection and give the competitor their score depedant on how perfect it was.

absorbentishe · 08-25-2004, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Competitions like gymnastics are based completely on the opinions of the judges. There might be certain things that are set out as penalties, but most of it is completely subjective from what I can tell.

Sorry, but no. I am a gymnastics teacher, and my son competes, albeit a low level, he competes. Judging is not based on the judges opinions. There are guide lines each gymnast has to follow. Each routine has to contain so many elements of each skill.

My comparison is that of a referee in Basketball, how many calls does he/she miss that change the complexity of the game. It is clear and defined, but was missed. In gymnastics, it is clear and defined, but missed by the judge.

kutulu · 08-25-2004, 09:35 AM

The strike zone itself may be well defined, but it is not well enforced. Fouls in the NBA are enforced subjectively.

regarding gymnastics, it's my opinion that people are passing judgements on a sport that they really don't understand.

ShaniFaye · 08-25-2004, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigGov

Nope. I don't consider Figure Skating or Gymnastics real sports. I put them in the catagory along with Professional Wrestling. Hear me out. The most popular and best performing Professional Wrestlers get the title belts and all the attention. Same with Figure Skating and Gymnastics. Other sports that fall into this catagory: Skateboarding, Snowboarding, Freestyle Moto-X, Diving, etc. Some are damn good athletic activities, and some are very interesting to watch, but they're just not sports.

A strike zone is baseball is a rule. I can be very easily enforced by anyone who follows the rules. Pass interference in football is a rule, it can be easily enforced. The judging in Gymnastics is everything. It's the rule, the scoreboard, the game, the season. Everything.

Meanwhile, they will never be removed from the olympics. Unless you can find some way to bring in billions of dollars only on sports.

What is a "real" sport then....and how is the distinction made?

absorbentishe · 08-26-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

regarding gymnastics, it's my opinion that people are passing judgements on a sport that they really don't understand.

Exactly. But we are all guilty of this. After watching something so long, we all tend to think we know a lot about it, and pass down our opinions as fact. I am guilty of it as well. Just with gymnastics, I know a hell of a lot about it. I actually took classes to be a judge for lower level judging. It didn't work out with the meet schedule my son has.

BigGov · 08-26-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

What is a "real" sport then....and how is the distinction made?

From the basic like track and field to the complicated like baseball, football, soccer, rugby. In all of these sports, the scoring is the same all the way through.

In something like gymnastics or freestyle moto-x there is no hard and fast scoring. One judge will take off a certain amount here, another a certain amount there, the scoring is variable, it changes. If it was such an accurate system then there would be no need for averages, the score of every judge would be the same. Instead personal opinion is involved and one judge can score one full point higher or one full point lower.

ShaniFaye · 08-26-2004, 09:42 AM

So, if Im understanding you correctly, something isnt a REAL sport because of the scoring system? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're meaning

Shpoop · 08-29-2004, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigGov

Some are damn good athletic activities, and some are very interesting to watch, but they're just not sports.

while im not sure if i agree with you or not, something does not need to be a sport to be in the Olympics. They are the Olympic Games, not Sports. long jump isnt a sport, and ballroom dancing sure as hell isnt a sport, but nonetheless they are still there.

BigGov · 08-29-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

So, if Im understanding you correctly, something isnt a REAL sport because of the scoring system? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're meaning

Then think of it this way. In football, baseball, basketball, rugby, the sports I'm saying are real sports, the only way to "rig" a sport so that someone is the winner or loser you would need to bribe the players.

In activities like gymnastics, freestyle moto-x, and figure skating, you could affect the entire outcome by bribing the judges. A person could have the performance of a lifetime, but that doesn't matter. The entire outcome is out of their hands. There's no game winning shot, there's no game winning save, there's no game winning anything. The participants have zero control over the end result.

View Poll Results: Should Sports That Require Judging Be In the Olympics
No	10	26.32%
Yes	5	13.16%
Yes, as long as the scoring system is objective and transparent.	23	60.53%
Other	0	0%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

08-23-2004, 07:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I believe that subjective scoring is a bad idea in anything. I don't think any "sport" that uses it should be in the Olympics. I think that, for things like gymnastics, figure skating, diving, etc., there should be a certain point value assigned for various moves and you get scored based on that. I don't know how feasible it is, but I think it would be better then the corruptable scoring now. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

08-24-2004, 03:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
CandleInTheDark Addict Location: Where the music's loudest	i think subjective scoring is necessary in artistic sports. Freezing in place what an athlete needs to win restricts progression of these sports. At the very least I would hate to see half-pipe snowboarding removed from the Olympics, or have a tightly bound scoring system. __________________ Where there is doubt there is freedom.

08-24-2004, 05:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	Nope. I don't consider Figure Skating or Gymnastics real sports. I put them in the catagory along with Professional Wrestling. Hear me out. The most popular and best performing Professional Wrestlers get the title belts and all the attention. Same with Figure Skating and Gymnastics. Other sports that fall into this catagory: Skateboarding, Snowboarding, Freestyle Moto-X, Diving, etc. Some are damn good athletic activities, and some are very interesting to watch, but they're just not sports. A strike zone is baseball is a rule. I can be very easily enforced by anyone who follows the rules. Pass interference in football is a rule, it can be easily enforced. The judging in Gymnastics is everything. It's the rule, the scoreboard, the game, the season. Everything. Meanwhile, they will never be removed from the olympics. Unless you can find some way to bring in billions of dollars only on sports. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-25-2004, 04:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
Spartak Bang bang Location: New Zealand	I had a brilliant idea.. For sports that require judging (gym, diving, figure skating etc). Incorporate sensors into the outfits of the competitors (or in the case of diving.. figure something out ), these sensors are then picked up by several cameras around the arena (like they do motion capture for video games). All these cameras are connected to a computer which has a huge database of various possible moves performed in the most perfect way. After the competitor completes their routine, the computer analyses all the moves in terms of perfection and give the competitor their score depedant on how perfect it was. __________________ I can read your mind... looking at you... I can read your mind...

08-24-2004, 12:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
crackpot Junkie Location: Montreal	Bloody Olympics... they've been swearing to clean up their act for ages now. Not just the judging, but the way in which they grant cities "host" status too. Those old fools are too dependent on the gifts/privileges/payola to change their habits, it seems. Whatever the "Olympic spirit" is, I know it sure as hell doesn't have a place in the back rooms of the higher-ups. Ugh, did that make sense? I need another drink I think. Cheers.

08-24-2004, 12:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
absorbentishe Boy am I horny today Location: T O L E D O, Toledo!!	I can't say one way or the other. I'm a gymnastic fan and would hate to see it leave the olympics. But does this apply to basketball with the referee, or baseball/softball with umpires? How strikes are called one day is different from the next. Every event is subjective is some way.

08-25-2004, 09:35 AM	#14 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	The strike zone itself may be well defined, but it is not well enforced. Fouls in the NBA are enforced subjectively. regarding gymnastics, it's my opinion that people are passing judgements on a sport that they really don't understand.

08-26-2004, 09:42 AM	#18 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	So, if Im understanding you correctly, something isnt a REAL sport because of the scoring system? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're meaning __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*