jobu

jim hendry pulled off another great trade for the cubs. he continues to put quality players on the field without having up to give up a lot of talent for it. he got nomar and didn't have to give up clement to do it. this is a HUGE additon for the cubs. in two years he has revamped this infield and turned it into a team that has some substance. now, if the cubbies can only get into the playoffs.

djtestudo

The Sawks are officially screwed.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Kurant

I personally could have done without Nomar, yes it's huge, but he's a free agent next season. That's a major problem. If the Cubs wanted a win-now kind of player, there was many better options, as he's been hurt, alot, and really not playing THAT well.

I was slightly concerned about that, being a Cubs fan.

However, Alex Gonzo wasen't anything to give up, and really all in all, I"m actully pretty pleased.

The Cubs with the pitching staff completly healthy, are still a major threat, the only problem is they don'tp lay the Cards again this season. But they could still pull it off with that pitching staff. If the Cubs make the wild card, and even though I'm biased, with the addition of Nomar, I think they are a team many can see making the big show - they woulden't be underdogs to anyone in the NL.

Overall, I'm pretty happy. =)

goppers

i miss nomahhh

dylanmarsh

Well, I think Theo and the Trio in Beantown are trying to change the team's basic playing philosophy. Now, this is fine, but it's what spring training is for. It is encouraging that the Sox seem to be finally paying attention as to what wins come playoff time: pitching and defense. I just don't know if the team can necessarily adjust in time to go from moneyball to smallball.

Going against everyone else in Red Sox Nation, I like the change with Nomar leaving. From a defensive stand point, it is a definite upgrade:

Nomar has made 6 errors in 139 total chances this season

Cabrera has made 8 errors in 445 total chances this season.

From an offensive stand point, Cabrera is having an off-season: hitting on .246 with 4 homers. However, he's been hitting in front of Tony Bautista all season, who is a far cry from Vlad Guerrero. I think if Cabrera is placed in the 2-hole in the lineup between Damon and Ortiz, he should get better pitches and, hopefully, start looking like the 2003 Cabrera: 17HR, 80RBI, .297.

Things will be okay in Boston. Nomar was going to leave at the end of the season, and now the Sox have new blood and a better defense.

jmf1234

This one trade (in my opinion) doubles the sweetness of a
BOsox-Cubbies World Series. I cant wait till October!

__________________
Let's go Pitt, we're set for victory

Sex is like bridge: If you don't have a good partner, you better have a good hand.
-- Charles Pierce

jobu

Yes that is true, but so is Clement and he was in the original trade talk. If the Cubs had given up someone off their roster or had traded one of their blue chip prospects then i would have had a problem with the trade. The Cubs don’t negotiate contracts until after the season, but it sounds like they are very interested in bringing him back. If they do, then it just makes the trade that much better.

Who would you have preferred? And if it isn’t a SS where do you put him? SS was the Cubs greatest need. They were last in just about every offensive category for that position. Offensively, Nomar is exactly what the team needs. A person who doesn’t strikeout a lot, can hit for average and someone to put at the top of the lineup. Yes he has been hurt this season and I know the Cubs looked into it. I heard an interview with Hendry this morning and that question was asked of him. Short of testing Nomar themselves, (which they couldn’t do because of his contract with Boston) the Cubs doctors reviewed all his medical records and therapy and Hendry said that he would not have pulled the trigger if he felt that Nomar couldn’t contribute.

Cozmo

This is a great trade for the Cubs as A.GONZ was only playing because of his glove (despite the fact that he was the one that blew that DP oppty after the Bartman fiasco in game 6 last year). He contributed nothing to the Cubs offense and it always seemed like he would hit into a DP at key points in a game. Hopefully the Cubs get the Nomar that we saw a couple of years ago when he consistantly hit over .300. However, as a die-hard fan must admit, solving the SS problem was just 1/2 of the equation keeping the Cubs from going anywhere this season. If the Cubs had a decent closer, then I would be thinking World Series! I personally feel this trade is one of the last steps in removing the curse of the Bartman if you believe in those things, ha ha.

djtestudo

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/040802

This is a LONG article, so I didn't want to post it.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Cozmo

Thanks djtestudo-that was a good article. Now you got me scared that Nomar has "issues" that seem a little more esoteric than his batting average. I've never lived in Boston or followed the Red Sox, but I tend to believe that Cub fans will treat him better, even in the media unlike in Boston. Even the Chicago media has forgiven Sammy after corking it last year. Nomar may just find a home in the friendly confines with fans that are used to mediocre players at SS (Shawon Dunston was the last one that I felt was any good) although I heard he wants to play out west so the Cubs may have a difficult time signing him after the season is over.

dylanmarsh

First thing is that the city of Boston never resented nor treated Nomar poorly in any way. Speaking as a life-long Sox fan, we would've loved to see Nomar finish out his career here even if he isn't the same player as he was in 2000. Nomar's agent is the real poison in this debacle along with mis-management and all the sports writers not named Peter Gammons. I do hope Nomar does well with the Cubs, but based on the decline I've seen in the last few years, Nomar is an extreme liability at short. Sure he can hit better than A-Gon, but defensively he's horrible --- and remember, this is coming from me, a huge Nomar fan.

Second, the Cubbies did not need more hitting; they needed sure hands at the toughest spot in the field. Cabrera would've helped them greatly, but now he's in beantown and Nomar is giving the Cubs opponents extra outs, each and every game. For Nomar's sake I hope he doesn't have an incident like A-Gon did last NLCS.

Kurant

What?

No, he wasen't in the original talks. Clement was said over 2 weeks ago he WAS NOT FOR TRADE. It even came right out of Hendry's mouth, Clement and Guzman were not up for negotiating trades. When are peole going to get Clement off the brain, he was never, ever offered for Nomar. You can quote Hendry on it too, he said it.

Of course the Cubs are intrested in bringing him back, there isn't a team in baseball besides the Red Sox and Yankees that don't need a guy like that. The real question is, will they pay him? Nomar also said in his interview, he didn't want to leave Boston.

Quote:

Who would you have preferred? And if it isn’t a SS where do you put him? SS was the Cubs greatest need. They were last in just about every offensive category for that position. Offensively, Nomar is exactly what the team needs. A person who doesn’t strikeout a lot, can hit for average and someone to put at the top of the lineup. Yes he has been hurt this season and I know the Cubs looked into it. I heard an interview with Hendry this morning and that question was asked of him. Short of testing Nomar themselves, (which they couldn’t do because of his contract with Boston) the Cubs doctors reviewed all his medical records and therapy and Hendry said that he would not have pulled the trigger if he felt that Nomar couldn’t contribute.

SS was not the Cubs greatest need. Alex Gonzo didn't put the Cubs 10 games back. Clement doesn't have a sub-3 ERA with a losing record because of Alex Gonzo. It because they have no closer. Sure, offense may have won more games for Clement, but with a sub-3 ERA there isn't many games your leaving late, behind in runs.

Nomar is a huge addition, and as a Cub fan, I'm very happy we got him. But also being a Cubs fan, you have to be realistic and see that Nomar isn't what this team needed. They need a bullpen.

Cozmo

Excellent points about Gonzo and our bullpen. I agree with both statements although I seem to recall quite a few Clement games lost by the score of 2-1 or 3-2 which could have been wins if we had some men on base when Sammy/Alou/Ramirez or Lee hits those solo home runs. So I'm very happy to have someone who is capable of hitting over .300 as a SS and getting some baserunners for the Cubs power. I hope his defensive skills (or lack thereof) are offset by his offense.

dylanmarsh

Actually, he was a part of the trade talks and the Red Sox opted for Mientkiewicz instead of Clement because they needed to solidify the infield.

From the August 1st Gammons article:

Epstein figured if Nomar had only 60 games left in a Boston uniform and he would play only half of them, he had to try to move him. The Cubs would have traded Matt Clement and Orlando Cabrera (who they would have first gotten from the Expos) for Garciaparra and Derek Lowe, but given the opportunity to get a great defensive first baseman, Epstein went for Doug Mientkiewicz and Cabrera and figures that Lowe will be a better pitcher with a vastly different defense.

Hopefully, Clement will be ours (the Red Sox) next season. Take care of Nomar for us.

pan6467

The Cubbies can add anyone to the team but without Zambrano, Prior and Wood the Cubbies are dead in the water.

Don't get me wrong with Nomar it's a good addition but if I were a Cubs fan I'd look at Prior and Wood's health problems this year and focus on trading them out for other healthier great pitchers.

Hope I'm wrong but Prior being as young as he is and having problems this early, is scary. He may end up being the pitching equivalent of JR. And Wood being injured this season is showing it's the coaching and mechanics. I think this year maybe the Cubbies best and last shot.

This off season as unpopular as it may seem I'd trade Wood and Prior, sign Clement and get Zambrano an extension then go after like Pedro (he says he only wants to go to the Yankees but if the Trib opens their wallet I can see him in a Cubbies uni and I feel he'd be a better NL pitcher right now anyway) and Benson full force. Trade Lee and get Delgado at first and maybe try to trade Sammy for a young stud like Mike Young in Texas or Blalock.



I just don't know what fucking magic St. Louis has to keep having such great teams. They are not big spenders, other than Pujols, maybe Edmonds they don't have any "great" players. Their pitchers aren't what I'd consider "A-listers". Yet they win. Amazing, I just don't see their strength on paper but they are becoming the epitome of TEAM sport and not individual (which costs so many teams down the home stretch).

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Kurant

Hendry insists he didn't put Clement up for trade, and he also said in an interview on WGN during the Cubs/Phillies game that he didn't even expect a deal done. That's also when he said Clement and Guzman were not part of the deal. But, it doesn't matter - neither were moved, and everyone is happy.

I don't imagine Boston goes chasing anything except Pedro. Because if it's not to Boston, he will be a Yankee.

As for the Cubs, with the farm system they have, which right now is just stuffed to the gills, I would hope they keep both. But in the long run, I think they will benefit more from a bullpen then Nomar, or Clement. Especially with Angel Guzman waiting in limbo. If you don't know anything about him, I went to cactus leauge games this year, and he will be awsome.

As for trading Prior/Wood, your crazy. Priors mechanics are flawless, as many, many analysits have said, last year was a freak of nature in a collision, this year has been rough.. As for Wood, well, I'd agree. It's all mechanics. But, I think he's got plenty of years left in him. Dusty is a known pitcher abuser, which really doesn't favor Wood, but this by any means is not the "last shot" they'll get. Prior and Wood will be just fine, they are both on short pitch counts, and if they get to the wild card, they will be very tough to rekon with. For anyone. As for your other trades, I would agree. I wanted Sammy out 2 years ago. I wouldn't be hurt if they traded Wood either, but I seriously doubt that happens.

As for St. Louis, I have no fucking clue. It's incredible. Well coached, well schooled, just a GOOD team, probably the best in baseball, unfortunatly.

dylanmarsh

Don't worry St. Louis will be this year's 2001 Seattle Mariners: a solid team throughout the regular season, but a disappointment come playoff time. Los Angeles or Atlanta might have problems in the first round with the Cards, but the Cubs rotation would wipe them out in the NLCS.

jobu

When I wrote that I was thinking about position players only. I do agree with you about the bullpen. We are very soft there, but think about this. A team like the Cubs that are built around starting pitching shouldn’t have a lineup that is relies on the home run. The pitching is going to keep you in just about every game but when the bats go silent not even the best pitchers can do anything. With the addition of Nomar, you start to turn the team into something that might be able to manufacture runs. My biggest problem with Gonzalez was that he struck out a lot. Now with Nomar, we a least have someone who is going to put the ball in play and give us a chance for something to happen. Also, adding a player of his caliber might help add a spark to the rest of the team. Something I think the Cubs needed.

As far a trading Wood and Prior, forget about it. Pitching wins in the playoffs. Those are the kind of guys that you build teams around. We will see how St. Louis fairs in the playoffs but they have been truly impressive so far. If you want to trade Sosa I will be more than happy to go down and pack his bags for him but I think at this stage in his career you’re not going to be able to get the same kind of value that you would have had a couple of years ago. So, I think it would be more beneficial to keep him (I can’t believe I just said that because I really hate him).

pan6467

So those of you who wouldn't trade Prior and Wood, wouldn't you rather have Hudson or Mulder or Webb or Cliff Lee or Sabbathia and say Halladay? Or go after Pedro or Schilling? I'd take Mulder for Wood straight up.

I'm sorry, I see Clement and Zambrano as the studs you need. Wood is great but his ERA climbs also. Prior I would trade now for another young stud while I could get high value in return.

As for Sammy, trade him to Philly for that 1B they have in the minors that's a hr freakazoid or as I said before try to get Blalock from Texas. Sammy might be better off as a DH in the AL.

Sign Delgado and trade Lee for some relief pitching.

I think those are the Cubbies only chances after this year. I love Prior and Wood but their injuries worry me, especially Prior's and when you have a manager that doesn't know how to handle pitchers, like Baker, those "simple" injuries can turn more serious fast.

Of course I'm a big Cincy/ Cleveland fan sooooo......

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

I'd definitely take the chance on Clement but Prior is so much better than him. He's also 6 years younger and that makes a big difference.

As for Texas players, I'd rather have Teixeira than Blalock but really I'd take either happily. Good luck prying either of those guys away from the team though. Ain't gonna happen. The have argueably the best infield in the majors and neither of them are arbetration eligible for at least another year (actually, Blalock might be a super-two but I don't know enough about that rule).

Kurant

I'm glad your not a GM of a team I like.

I could see Woo'ds problems, his is all mechanics, but calling this they last shot they have? Come on. Be realistic.

Pedro? Are you kidding me? Hell no. He's on the downside of his career, and just like everyone else who's played for shit teams his entire career with stellar success and numbers, he's going to be a Yankee next year. Woopdee fuggin doo. His shoulder could go at any time. Pedro is no more reliable then Prior or Wood. Schilling? That's almost laughable. Prior's mechanics are flawless, he's had a tough go this year, but he WILL be just fine, I promise you. Wood will be fine, his elbow problems this year were nothing, no MRI showed any damage. His ERA continues to climb because he's on short pitch counts, and he's really not heating up the arm. Don't worry, you'll see how good these guys are come October.

Halladay is on the 15 Day DL with Shoulder problems, again. He's 7-7 with a 4.xx ERA or so... No thanks. Cliff Lee, maybe - somthing to be said about a leftie who can win games. Somthing I think the Cubs have lacked for a long time. His ERA is still almost 5. Mulder, well, who woulden't want Mulder - or Hudson - both of em are studs. But not for Prior, or Wood. They could have Clement and Sammy though.

I hope your not talking about the 4-12 Brandon Webb?

As for Sosa, I'll HELP you pack his bags, Jobu.

The Cubs pitching will be just fine. I'm not a big Kerry Wood fan, but I think he's got alot of good years in him, alot of nasty stuff left to throw. It's his mechanics that are going to hurt him. Trading him however, isn't an option the Cubs have. He has WAY to much upside.

pan6467

Ok Ok I love ya Cubbies and you are loyal fans, but you want to watch Prior and Wood become bums before your eyes it's ok with me. Just as you think it's a mistake to trade them, I think it's a mistake to keep them and not get as much as possible for them now before they do.

(Webb's ERA is dropping and while not winning it's more the D'backs then him, Lee, his first year in the Majors and in the AL he's showing he can win this year, the ERA will drop next year)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cozmo

Maybe I'm too biased of a Cub fan, but I think you are crazy to even consider trading Prior and Wood in the off season, no matter who is involved (including Mulder) since they are the future of this organization and it would be akin to Steinbrenner trading Derek Jeter away from the Yankees. Cub fans and the Cubs franchise have made it very clear (with their actions) that the future success or failure hinges on Prior and Wood so trading them just seems too far fetched at this point in their young careers. Now Sammy-I think I agree with others in this forum that Sammy is probably doing more harm than good to the Cubbies and his selfish attitude. He would make a good DH in the American league as he is getting near the end of his career and I think that would fit in better with his poor fielding/good hitting MO. This year has been an anomaly in that both Prior and Wood have had some nasty injuries that really haven't healed yet 100%. Maybe Baker had something to do with those injuries, but both of these pitchers are on low pitch counts since they've returned from the DL. I may be optimistic, but I have this feeling that both Prior and Wood will come to full potential towards the end of the Season, just in time for the playoffs in October. I hope being 75-85% of their full potential can still get them into the playoffs. The addition of Nomar seems to have sparked their offense a bit, but it is too early to tell the long term effects of that trade. Position by Position, the Cubs have a better team this year than last year (compare 1B, Catcher, SS) and I can only attribute their position in the standings to the injuries on our pitching staff and the Cardinals playing out of their mind. I will give some credit to those Cardinals-they are truly playing great baseball but I'd like to see how they will do in October. It sure seems like peaking at the right time wins championships-look at the Marlins last year. Anyone have some predictions for the NLCS?

Kurant

The injuries were nothing.. Absolutley nothing. They are on short pitch counts to be sure. With Rusch now in the bullpen, they don't need to throw 120 pitches. With Hawkins pitching a little better, it makes it even more so. They won't be bums, I promise you. Forget the fact I'm a Cubs fan, it's common sense. The fact you mentioned Pedro for Wood or Prior, that's laughable. You may hate them, but rational thought should take over in there somewhere.

EDIT: Oh, BTW... - Oliver Perez > Lee.

NLCS - Braves, St. Loius, DOdgers. Wild card goes to the Cubbies.

A little biased, but based on pitching, and the Cubs lineup, they can hit anyone, and out pitch everyone, starter for starter (Maddux is questionable, but he's Maddux.. What else can you say?). I think that combo is pretty tough. However, St. Loius and the DOdgers are monsters. I just don't think they can handle healthy Cubs pitching, which you have yet to see this year.

Cozmo

Saw some healthy Cubs pitching today-Wood looked awesome against a very Hot Dodger lineup and added a HR himself! If only the Cubbies could get Mark Prior back 100%-we'll see how he does against the Dodgers tomorrow although he still has not looked good since coming off the DL. If the Cubs don't get Prior back into form along with Woody pitching like he pitched today, I feel the Giants or Padres will take the Wildcard and us Cub fans will have to wait til next year again.

Blu2e354

pan6467, those proposals you make might be smart in video games but in real baseball they are illogical. Schilling is 37 and pedro has never been able to go a whole season off the DL. Maybe we should just try to sign nolan ryan out of retirement. All players get injured so unless you talking about griffey jr. then I don't care. Sabathia is out of shape lefty, Lee has had one average season, webb doesn't have nearly the stuff of prior or wood and mulder and hudson are nice but i'd take prior and wood anyday. A's can't even get out of the first round of the playoffs. Plus teams with young cheap good players don't trade for expensive veterans towards the end of the career like sosa cause they can't afford them. Adding delgado would add 20 mill. to the payroll and i'd rather keep the pitching staff nucleus and derek lee is a very solid player. Also baker wearing out staffs, when he was with the giants he was told he wore down the bullpen and now he wears down starters just because a few got injured. The bullpen will be a lot stronger too with the addition of rusch, borowski, dempster, and maybe guzman if they add him to the pen when he gets healthy. I think the cardinals will struggle in october but right now i'd take their lineup over the yankees

Kurant

The Cards continue to defy what EVERYONE says. I won't doubt them. Personally, I don't think the pitching is good enough to win in October. Although, the Marlins pitching wasen't exactly that good either. But they performed down the stretch. The Cards pitching is weak, and if the Cubs can get the wildcard, and the pitching is healthy, I don't think any team in the NL can beat them, except the Cards.

As a Cubs fan, I'n extremely dissapointed this year. Nomar at this rate won't be staying in Chicago. If they don't do it this year, it's going to be very tough next year. Dempster will eventually be a big boost to that bullpen, and why Guzman is STILL playing in the farm system, with the weak bullpen, I'll never understand. I don't expect Clement to be a Cub next year if they realistically plan on signing Nomar to a deal, and Guzman was amazing at the Cactus League games I saw this year in AZ. I expect he's called up next year. Mid 90's fast ball, and supposedly the best changeup in the system.

Cozmo

Maybe I'm an optimistic Cubs fan, but it is starting to look like the Cubs starting rotation is finally getting it together just in time for a September rally and possible Wild Card spot. The Cubs offense has been awesome ever since Sammy "volunteered" to move down in the batting order so the Cubs weak bullpen has enough runs to still finish the games with a lead/win. This Cubs team certainly has a lot of weakness (mostly the bullpen/closer situation), but I still think that the starting rotation is the best in baseball-definitely better than St Louis. It is starting to look like Prior and Wood are almost 100% now which should scare the Cardinals going into the playoffs. I think the Cubs will be the team that no one wants to face in October with their combination of great starting pitching and an explosive offense (it looks like they will end the season with 4 players with more than 30 HR's). The only question I have is which starting pitcher do you make as a reliever in the playoffs, Clement since he may not be a Cub next year?

Average_Joe

Since the Nomar trade:

Red Sox: 16-7
Cubs: 15-8

Looks like a win-win so far!

Cozmo

Comparing the Shortstops after the trade...
AGonz with MTL: 21games/85 AB, .282 BA, .315 OBP and 12 RBI's
OCabrera with BOS: 23games/96AB, .281 BA, .304 OBP and 14 RBI's
Nomar with Cubs: 20games/82AB, .317BA, .352 OBP and 12 RBI's

So the Cubs got a much better hitter in this trade, but for some reason or another, both Gonzalez and Cabrera are batting much better on their new teams despite being known for their defense...I would expect Cabrera to have more motivation to play better since Boston has playoff hopes, but I cannot explain why Gonzalez is playing any better. So you are right, win-win for all teams involved!