The Future of the Evil Empire - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

kutulu · 07-21-2004, 01:38 PM

So the Yankee payroll is so high now its a joke but what about the payroll two years from now?

This site has payroll, buyout, and option money for each team that it pretty accurate.

As long as I'm reading this right, in 2006, without counting any buyouts or options (player, team, or mutual) they have $137M devoted to 9 players. That covers their 1B/DH, SS, 3B, C, 1 OF, 3 SP, and closer. As we all konw it takes 25 players to complete the roster. If all options are excercised, they have $164M devoted to 13 players. That covers 3 relievers and Bernie.

In 2007, excluding options, they have 78M devoted to 4 players (Jeter, Arod, Giambi and Jazquez). Counting options, it goes up to $130 by including Mussina, Rivera, Posada, and Sheff (8 players).

How long do you think their total payroll will be around/over $200M?

Giambi also gets $21 in 08 with a $22 option in 2009 with a $5 buyout.
Jeter gets $22, $20, and $21 in 08, 09, and 10
ARod gets $24 in 08, 09, and 10 with a buyout in 11. There's all sorts of incentives that can push his salary to over $32M. The Rangers are paying $6, $7, $8, $7, $6 of his from 06-10*so you can subtract that from their totals for those years.

The Yankees have decimated their farm system and therefore will be vitims to free agency. It takes at least a year or two for a draft pick to develop into a bonafide prospect and another year or two before they can even make it on a roster. How long do think they Yanks have until their bloated contracts to aging veterans start to hurt the franchise?

In the meantime, teams like the Brewers, Marlins, Expos, A's, Twins, Dodgers, DBacks, and many others all have between $0-$20 lined up for players from 06 and beyond.

cameroncrazy822 · 07-21-2004, 06:30 PM

Thanks much for the research and projections! You're obviously a HUGE baseball fan and may I say "purist"? That's definately refreshing. I've read most of your threads and posts in sports and I agree with a lot of what you indicate. I just think the Yankees as they are now... or should I say how the league allows them to be, HORRIBLE for baseball. Once they reach their "cap" and they have depleted their farm system they'll just change gears again. They'll retool by buying all the best prospects up and or raping the latin american countries of talent. As long as they have so much of a financial buffer against the rest of BASEBALL they will continue to buy championships. Albeit in an "upgrading" year or two tops, when they only make it through the first round of the playoffs until they again win the whole thing in a year or two. Keep the faith my brother, things can't continue this way forever if baseball has a chance to survive.

djtestudo · 07-21-2004, 08:08 PM

The thing is, you can't buy the best prospects, due to the draft.

Now, if they decide that two years of non-competing is worth the rebuilding that would take place, I could see them selling off guys like Mussina, Matsui, and such for prospects from other contending teams.

However, Steinbrenner would never agree to that.

I believe their first mistake was not taking a the risk of signing Guerrero this offseason and getting an aging Sheffield instead. Having Matsui and Guerrero in that outfield could probably extend Bernie's career a little longer in the field, letting them focus on other things. Their pitching is still suspect and aging, and they have NO pitching prospects. Their only prospect I know of is a catcher who would theoretically take over for Posada at some point.

As other teams, such as Texas, Cleveland, and Tampa Bay, build their teams and can afford to sign guys, they will lose out on free agents to younger teams that they would normally sign.

I don't think they will have a long period like 1982 to 1994 where they aren't competing; I think Steinbrenner has learned a few lessons. However, I believe a few years of second-division finishes could be coming soon.

pan6467 · 07-21-2004, 08:27 PM

I think King George is prepared. He has an open wallet. IMO he probably thinks (and perhaps rightfully so) if noone buys a high player and there's someone better (say Pujols over Giambi), he can eat Giambi's contract still offer Pujols probably 2x what anyone else can and still make a profit.

The ONLY way to stop King George is to have a true salary cap and revenue sharing. Otherwise he'll eat contracts and keep signing whoever he wants.

kutulu · 07-22-2004, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by djtestudo
I believe their first mistake was not taking a the risk of signing Guerrero this offseason and getting an aging Sheffield instead.

Big mistake there but who knows if Vlad would have been able to play in that media frenzy. The Weaver for Brown trade, well that's a perfect example of how both teams can lose in a trade.

I guess they can just go the free agent route each year but it has to catch up with them someday. Free agents can set you up for the year but when it comes to trading season and you have holes to fill you don't have the prospects you need to get what you want.

Hanxter · 07-23-2004, 06:33 AM

the new york daily news placed this ad on page 117 of the boston herald...

the boston herald responded on page 118 with an ad of their own, saying in plain black & white text...

"screw the curse... kick their pinstriped butts"

seems they even spend more money in enemy territory through the press

pan6467 · 07-23-2004, 06:50 AM

Now that is good rivalry fun. Wish Cleveland would do something like that.

braindamage351 · 07-23-2004, 10:02 PM

The Yankees used to be my favorite team, but I have to agree that they have really shitty business practices. Steinbrenner is a grade A douche bag.

kutulu · 07-26-2004, 09:03 AM

King George's lowest point was when he cut dental benefits from his employees to save money. How about overpaying someone by $1M less instead?

JoeyB · 08-02-2004, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kutulu

I guess they can just go the free agent route each year but it has to catch up with them someday. Free agents can set you up for the year but when it comes to trading season and you have holes to fill you don't have the prospects you need to get what you want.

I see only 2 ways that the free agent way of thinking could backfire on them.

1--if MLB changes the rules. If a firm salary cap is put into place, the Yankees are in trouble.

2--if New York suddenly loses its luster of being a place to go to compete for championships. Right now, the Yankees are enjoying the cache of being a team that every season is in the running for a title. A veteran who wants a shot at a ring can see that as an extra bonus. When Joe Torre steps down, it will be interesting to see if players still want to deal with NY. The media is tougher than anywhere else and Torre acts as a nice buffer between the player and George. With Joe gone, will it seem as appealing??

I think the Yanks may have learned a lesson this summer. They'll still spend freely this winter, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some reorganization within their minor league development. (in other words....someone's gettin' fired!!!)

Andrew · 08-02-2004, 09:07 PM

Frankly, the Yankees can afford to do what they are currently doing (i.e. buying all the quality free agents), but it isn't all gloom and doom that people are predicting. It leaves them high on star power and all-stars, but low on depth Without depth and other assets, they really cannot preform the necessary trades. Without trading and a farm system, they're stuck relying on an aging star-driven line-up. As players grow older, they're increasingly likely to get hurt. The Yankees are always one pulled muscle on a pitcher away from disaster. It's important to remember that offense wins in the regular season, but defense and pitching wins in the postseason and the Yankees will find it increasingly tough to find that in the years to come.

kutulu · 08-03-2004, 08:37 AM

That's what my point is about free agency hurting them in the long run. When all you sign is overpriced free agents and you have no farm system to speak of, you end up being in the situation where you can't fix the holes you have by trades (they only way to make effective changes during the season). Nobody is going to trade for an aging overpaid superstar who isn't performing.

Supposedly they offered the DBacks and 6 guys out of their minor league system. If they have six valuable players we would have taken it.

07-21-2004, 01:38 PM	#1 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	The Future of the Evil Empire So the Yankee payroll is so high now its a joke but what about the payroll two years from now? This site has payroll, buyout, and option money for each team that it pretty accurate. As long as I'm reading this right, in 2006, without counting any buyouts or options (player, team, or mutual) they have $137M devoted to 9 players. That covers their 1B/DH, SS, 3B, C, 1 OF, 3 SP, and closer. As we all konw it takes 25 players to complete the roster. If all options are excercised, they have $164M devoted to 13 players. That covers 3 relievers and Bernie. In 2007, excluding options, they have 78M devoted to 4 players (Jeter, Arod, Giambi and Jazquez). Counting options, it goes up to $130 by including Mussina, Rivera, Posada, and Sheff (8 players). How long do you think their total payroll will be around/over $200M? Giambi also gets $21 in 08 with a $22 option in 2009 with a $5 buyout. Jeter gets $22, $20, and $21 in 08, 09, and 10 ARod gets $24 in 08, 09, and 10 with a buyout in 11. There's all sorts of incentives that can push his salary to over $32M. The Rangers are paying $6, $7, $8, $7, $6 of his from 06-10*so you can subtract that from their totals for those years. The Yankees have decimated their farm system and therefore will be vitims to free agency. It takes at least a year or two for a draft pick to develop into a bonafide prospect and another year or two before they can even make it on a roster. How long do think they Yanks have until their bloated contracts to aging veterans start to hurt the franchise? In the meantime, teams like the Brewers, Marlins, Expos, A's, Twins, Dodgers, DBacks, and many others all have between $0-$20 lined up for players from 06 and beyond.

07-21-2004, 08:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	The thing is, you can't buy the best prospects, due to the draft. Now, if they decide that two years of non-competing is worth the rebuilding that would take place, I could see them selling off guys like Mussina, Matsui, and such for prospects from other contending teams. However, Steinbrenner would never agree to that. I believe their first mistake was not taking a the risk of signing Guerrero this offseason and getting an aging Sheffield instead. Having Matsui and Guerrero in that outfield could probably extend Bernie's career a little longer in the field, letting them focus on other things. Their pitching is still suspect and aging, and they have NO pitching prospects. Their only prospect I know of is a catcher who would theoretically take over for Posada at some point. As other teams, such as Texas, Cleveland, and Tampa Bay, build their teams and can afford to sign guys, they will lose out on free agents to younger teams that they would normally sign. I don't think they will have a long period like 1982 to 1994 where they aren't competing; I think Steinbrenner has learned a few lessons. However, I believe a few years of second-division finishes could be coming soon. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

07-21-2004, 08:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I think King George is prepared. He has an open wallet. IMO he probably thinks (and perhaps rightfully so) if noone buys a high player and there's someone better (say Pujols over Giambi), he can eat Giambi's contract still offer Pujols probably 2x what anyone else can and still make a profit. The ONLY way to stop King George is to have a true salary cap and revenue sharing. Otherwise he'll eat contracts and keep signing whoever he wants. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

07-23-2004, 06:50 AM	#7 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Now that is good rivalry fun. Wish Cleveland would do something like that. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

07-21-2004, 06:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
cameroncrazy822 Junkie Location: MD	Thanks much for the research and projections! You're obviously a HUGE baseball fan and may I say "purist"? That's definately refreshing. I've read most of your threads and posts in sports and I agree with a lot of what you indicate. I just think the Yankees as they are now... or should I say how the league allows them to be, HORRIBLE for baseball. Once they reach their "cap" and they have depleted their farm system they'll just change gears again. They'll retool by buying all the best prospects up and or raping the latin american countries of talent. As long as they have so much of a financial buffer against the rest of BASEBALL they will continue to buy championships. Albeit in an "upgrading" year or two tops, when they only make it through the first round of the playoffs until they again win the whole thing in a year or two. Keep the faith my brother, things can't continue this way forever if baseball has a chance to survive.

07-23-2004, 06:33 AM	#6 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	the new york daily news placed this ad on page 117 of the boston herald... the boston herald responded on page 118 with an ad of their own, saying in plain black & white text... "screw the curse... kick their pinstriped butts" seems they even spend more money in enemy territory through the press

07-23-2004, 10:02 PM	#8 (permalink)
braindamage351 Insane	The Yankees used to be my favorite team, but I have to agree that they have really shitty business practices. Steinbrenner is a grade A douche bag.

07-26-2004, 09:03 AM	#9 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	King George's lowest point was when he cut dental benefits from his employees to save money. How about overpaying someone by $1M less instead?

08-02-2004, 09:07 PM	#11 (permalink)
Andrew Tilted	Frankly, the Yankees can afford to do what they are currently doing (i.e. buying all the quality free agents), but it isn't all gloom and doom that people are predicting. It leaves them high on star power and all-stars, but low on depth Without depth and other assets, they really cannot preform the necessary trades. Without trading and a farm system, they're stuck relying on an aging star-driven line-up. As players grow older, they're increasingly likely to get hurt. The Yankees are always one pulled muscle on a pitcher away from disaster. It's important to remember that offense wins in the regular season, but defense and pitching wins in the postseason and the Yankees will find it increasingly tough to find that in the years to come.

08-03-2004, 08:37 AM	#12 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	That's what my point is about free agency hurting them in the long run. When all you sign is overpriced free agents and you have no farm system to speak of, you end up being in the situation where you can't fix the holes you have by trades (they only way to make effective changes during the season). Nobody is going to trade for an aging overpaid superstar who isn't performing. Supposedly they offered the DBacks and 6 guys out of their minor league system. If they have six valuable players we would have taken it.