Eric... fucking... Gagne... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

CheesePizzaMan · 05-24-2004, 07:43 PM

is this guy human?
How the fuck do you not blow a save in 73 games, all the while being on (last year) about the worst hitting team in baseball? He may be getting some run support now, and everyone gets lucky once in a while, but 73 is fucking ridiculous. While I feel that closers are overrated when compared to starters (afterall, starters can throw 3x as many innings, right?)--I still thought he was the Cy Young to be last year and this year is certainly validating my opinion.

Holy crap, this guy is good. I wonder how he'd have done if he stuck with starting-- where he couldn't cut it. That chubby, dirty, smelly guy can sure pitch from the bullpen. Damn.
Will he get to 100?
Why not?

soccerchamp76 · 05-24-2004, 11:26 PM

The reason why is because starters are pitchers, closers are throwers. As a starter, your goal is to go 9 innings. So, you must limit high pitch counts and conserve energy. Closing is a totally different aspect since you will be throwing only about 25 pitches (almost max). You are able to gun it out everytime, throwing your hardest fastball and not worrying about tiring.

Halx · 05-25-2004, 12:22 AM

Gagne WAS a starter who got thrown around like mad. He had enough pitches to be a starter, and that's what makes him such a tricky closer.

He can blast a 98mph fastball past you.. then hit you with an OBNOXIOUS rainbow curve.. or make you look absolutely SILLY with 72mph change up. He's got a few other pitches in there to mix it up, but those are his weapons of choice.

kutulu · 05-25-2004, 08:43 AM

I'm pulling for the DBacks to break his streak. We were the last one's to force a blown save on him. We totally had his ass on the ropes last year but our dipshit 3rd base coach thought Craig Counsell was fast enough to make it from 1st to home on a double to right.

He is a great closer but I still think that Prior deserved the Cy much more than he did. I just don't think that relief pitchers that throw less than 100 IP and only pitch with a lead should be considered over a starter that throws over 200 innings.

frolichoek · 05-25-2004, 09:50 AM

Throwing in Dodgers Stadium doesn't hurt either. I know not all of his saves are there, but you gotta think that at least a couple of blown saves were spared by the warning track.

Halx · 05-25-2004, 10:03 AM

Well, all you haters - this is your year. He doesn't seem to have the same invincible stuff that he had last year. He's still amazing, though.

And who the hell is Danny Graves?

kutulu · 05-25-2004, 10:15 AM

Graves was the closer in Cincy from 99-02. He was always a fairly descent closer. Not the best, but for the most part he was good enough. They made him a starter last year but he was pretty bad (posting an ERA over 5). They put him back in the closer role at the very end of last season. He has 21 saves this year, but he's also already blown 4. His ERA is 3.00 (nothing too special for a closer) and he's allowing way too many longballs. That's one of the problems with saves. Just like RBI, only positive results are the main focus. Both should really be looked at as a state derived from success and opportunity. I think it would need to be something different than a raw percentage though because success should be weighted higher than opportunity.

jobu · 05-25-2004, 11:01 AM

Quote:

originally posted by kutulu
He is a great closer but I still think that Prior deserved the Cy much more than he did. I just don't think that relief pitchers that throw less than 100 IP and only pitch with a lead should be considered over a starter that throws over 200 innings.

you make a good point but i think we are seeing a record that won't be broken for a long time. to me this is one of the more difficult records. to be able to have your best stuff day after day is truly impressive. being a cubs fan prior was truly lights out last year but he did miss almost a month of the season. and even though he was unhittable i still thought gagne deserved the cy young last year.

kutulu · 05-25-2004, 11:27 AM

It is an amazing record, but he's still a relief pitcher. I guess he made it because there was nobody that truly dominated AND stayed healthy all year. At least the voters weren't dumb enough to give it to Russ Ortiz. He was about as overrated as you can get last year.

canuckguy · 05-25-2004, 04:07 PM

i remember reading a quote some where and I think it was cliff floyd that said, slamming your hand in the car door is a 7 on the pain scale, but swinging and missing on a gagne change up is a 10. hehe not sure if i have that right, still gets the point across. he is just amazing, hitting is all about timing and he just plain fools people. good thing though blalock is in the american league

Cross-Over · 05-25-2004, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brian1975
good thing though blalock is in the american league

I was going to mention Blalock. The game obviously doesn't count. However, I doubt Gagne went out their half assing it. He blew that save for sure.

Now me making a post having to bring up Gagne's blown save in the All Star game is definitely weak. I am really not being argumentative, its just I am still bitter that the NL lost that game after having Wagner/Gagne/Smoltz to close it out.

kutulu · 05-26-2004, 10:28 AM

Blalock kicks major ass though! I'd love to get him from the Rangers. Too bad there's no way they let him go.

mizer · 05-30-2004, 03:58 PM

First of all, Schmidt deserved the Cy Young last year. He was the best pitcher in the National League; Gagne's consecutive saves record is a very superficial one. When Gagne came in for a save, he already had a lead, and he would be pitching to just about any part of the order -- that means lots of 6-7-8, 7-8-9. I'm not doubting his tremendous ability, but it isn't like the degree of difficulty was extremely hard. And when you consider that the times when he was brought in to hold a lead, he did an exceedingly poor job (I'm breaking my own rules by making that kind of statement without a link to back it up, but google it and see for yourself; I'm not pulling it out of my ass). So tell me how valuable he was when the times he was brought in to really save the team, in the most important situations and against the best hitters on the opposing team, he didn't get the job done?

The consecutive saves thing is misleading because it gives people the perception that every time he went out there he pitched well. And people also forget that most of the time, in save situations he had a cushion. With a 2 or 3 run lead, even if he gave up a run or two, he still got the save.

Jason Schmidt had the lowest ERA and 17 wins on a 100 win team. He came through when the Giants really need him. Gagne didn't really do that for the Dodgers.

Halx · 05-30-2004, 04:29 PM

mizer what the hell are you talking about?

Gagne was PERFECT when the Dodgers needed him - at the end of the game. What games were you watching? The 2001 season on ESPN Classic?

forseti-6 · 05-30-2004, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mizer
First of all, Schmidt deserved the Cy Young last year. He was the best pitcher in the National League; Gagne's consecutive saves record is a very superficial one. When Gagne came in for a save, he already had a lead, and he would be pitching to just about any part of the order -- that means lots of 6-7-8, 7-8-9. I'm not doubting his tremendous ability, but it isn't like the degree of difficulty was extremely hard. And when you consider that the times when he was brought in to hold a lead, he did an exceedingly poor job (I'm breaking my own rules by making that kind of statement without a link to back it up, but google it and see for yourself; I'm not pulling it out of my ass). So tell me how valuable he was when the times he was brought in to really save the team, in the most important situations and against the best hitters on the opposing team, he didn't get the job done?

The consecutive saves thing is misleading because it gives people the perception that every time he went out there he pitched well. And people also forget that most of the time, in save situations he had a cushion. With a 2 or 3 run lead, even if he gave up a run or two, he still got the save.

Jason Schmidt had the lowest ERA and 17 wins on a 100 win team. He came through when the Giants really need him. Gagne didn't really do that for the Dodgers.

Gagne got the job done EVERY time he was called upon. Ok so a
few times he was brought in when they were behind or tied and he didn't pitch all that well, but he was PERFECT closing games out. Who cares if he comes in with a 3 run lead and gives up two. The fact of the matter is, the Dodgers won, and he SAVED the game for them.

forseti-6 · 05-30-2004, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CheesePizzaMan
is this guy human?
How the fuck do you not blow a save in 73 games, all the while being on (last year) about the worst hitting team in baseball? He may be getting some run support now, and everyone gets lucky once in a while, but 73 is fucking ridiculous.

I don't see what point you're trying to make that Gagne is on a horrible hitting team. I don't have any statistics on this, but I'd be willing to bet that most save records (most saves in a year, etc..) are with teams with poor hitting. Why? If you have a good hitting team you're probably beating the team by more than 3 runs, thus not making it a save situation.

And as a closer, he isn't credited with the run support the starter is. So again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make....

Nimbletoe · 05-31-2004, 03:09 AM

Dude needs a hair cut.

Halx · 05-31-2004, 09:52 AM

Nimbletoe, these guys only get haircuts when they are in a slump. I see no necessity.

hoot · 05-31-2004, 06:22 PM

I have seen some good and great closers in my time...Sutter, Reghetti (sp?), Sambito, Wagner, Gossage, L. Smith, Wetteland, etc....

75 freakin saves in a row is unbelievable! There is no other way about it. I don't care who he is pitching for....75 times in a row he does his job...perfectly. No other way to explain it...that's freaking good.

CheesePizzaMan · 06-01-2004, 08:33 PM

Blalock went to my highschool, a class under me. I grew up with his cousin, and her dad was our baseball coach. He (Hank) was/is a major prick. He's also damn good. All the hype was for Eric Chavez and Eric munson, who played for the rival highschool a year ahead of him. Can you tell that I'm bitter trying to make the team where every other kid seems to be getting some type of major league contract? Fucking frustrating. I'm done ranting.
Thanks for listening.

Quote:

Originally posted by forseti-6
I don't see what point you're trying to make that Gagne is on a horrible hitting team. I don't have any statistics on this, but I'd be willing to bet that most save records (most saves in a year, etc..) are with teams with poor hitting. Why? If you have a good hitting team you're probably beating the team by more than 3 runs, thus not making it a save situation.

And as a closer, he isn't credited with the run support the starter is. So again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make....

I'm not sure what you're trying to point out-- so he doesn't get to come in in a save situation, then he doesn't come in. WTF does that have to do with anything--he can't blow the save if he's not in the game! Its about consecutive saves--not how many opportunities for saves that he gets! If he gives up runs, but gets run support, he can still get the save. If he comes in with a 2 run lead vs. a 1 run lead, its a lot easier on him. I am not sure that you understand that the Gagne hype is based upon not fucking up--it isn't just how many save opportunities he can get in a year--Keith Foulke with Oakland last year did a great job there, and he wasn't as amazing as Gagne for the simple fact that he fucked up every once in a while--when Gagne fucked up, they got the runs to help him out!

forseti-6 · 06-01-2004, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CheesePizzaMan
I'm not sure what you're trying to point out-- so he doesn't get to come in in a save situation, then he doesn't come in. WTF does that have to do with anything--he can't blow the save if he's not in the game! Its about consecutive saves--not how many opportunities for saves that he gets! If he gives up runs, but gets run support, he can still get the save. If he comes in with a 2 run lead vs. a 1 run lead, its a lot easier on him. I am not sure that you understand that the Gagne hype is based upon not fucking up--it isn't just how many save opportunities he can get in a year--Keith Foulke with Oakland last year did a great job there, and he wasn't as amazing as Gagne for the simple fact that he fucked up every once in a while--when Gagne fucked up, they got the runs to help him out!

What I'm asking is, what does the fact that he plays on a poor hitting team have to do with how good he is?

A save situation is a save situation. Whether he's on the Yankees or the Devil Rays, he would still only come in during a save situation. Now having poor defense might make more of a difference than a poor hitting team. Also as a closer, I'm not sure if he really pitched more than one inning. In those cases I don't see how run support means anything since, he's called upon to come in and get 3 outs before blowing the lead.

Halx · 06-01-2004, 09:18 PM

well, take the situation that he isn't good at all. He gives up close games that result in losses because the opponents either walk off or the dodgers cant recover because their hitting sucks. He IS so much more important to them than he would be to the Yankees.

05-24-2004, 07:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
CheesePizzaMan Upright Location: 2 Blocks from the Beach, California	Eric... fucking... Gagne... is this guy human? How the fuck do you not blow a save in 73 games, all the while being on (last year) about the worst hitting team in baseball? He may be getting some run support now, and everyone gets lucky once in a while, but 73 is fucking ridiculous. While I feel that closers are overrated when compared to starters (afterall, starters can throw 3x as many innings, right?)--I still thought he was the Cy Young to be last year and this year is certainly validating my opinion. Holy crap, this guy is good. I wonder how he'd have done if he stuck with starting-- where he couldn't cut it. That chubby, dirty, smelly guy can sure pitch from the bullpen. Damn. Will he get to 100? Why not?

05-24-2004, 11:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	The reason why is because starters are pitchers, closers are throwers. As a starter, your goal is to go 9 innings. So, you must limit high pitch counts and conserve energy. Closing is a totally different aspect since you will be throwing only about 25 pitches (almost max). You are able to gun it out everytime, throwing your hardest fastball and not worrying about tiring. __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

05-25-2004, 12:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Gagne WAS a starter who got thrown around like mad. He had enough pitches to be a starter, and that's what makes him such a tricky closer. He can blast a 98mph fastball past you.. then hit you with an OBNOXIOUS rainbow curve.. or make you look absolutely SILLY with 72mph change up. He's got a few other pitches in there to mix it up, but those are his weapons of choice. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

05-25-2004, 09:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
frolichoek Tilted	Throwing in Dodgers Stadium doesn't hurt either. I know not all of his saves are there, but you gotta think that at least a couple of blown saves were spared by the warning track. __________________ Count me in, bra.

05-25-2004, 10:03 AM	#6 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Well, all you haters - this is your year. He doesn't seem to have the same invincible stuff that he had last year. He's still amazing, though. And who the hell is Danny Graves? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

05-25-2004, 08:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I'm pulling for the DBacks to break his streak. We were the last one's to force a blown save on him. We totally had his ass on the ropes last year but our dipshit 3rd base coach thought Craig Counsell was fast enough to make it from 1st to home on a double to right. He is a great closer but I still think that Prior deserved the Cy much more than he did. I just don't think that relief pitchers that throw less than 100 IP and only pitch with a lead should be considered over a starter that throws over 200 innings.

05-25-2004, 10:15 AM	#7 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Graves was the closer in Cincy from 99-02. He was always a fairly descent closer. Not the best, but for the most part he was good enough. They made him a starter last year but he was pretty bad (posting an ERA over 5). They put him back in the closer role at the very end of last season. He has 21 saves this year, but he's also already blown 4. His ERA is 3.00 (nothing too special for a closer) and he's allowing way too many longballs. That's one of the problems with saves. Just like RBI, only positive results are the main focus. Both should really be looked at as a state derived from success and opportunity. I think it would need to be something different than a raw percentage though because success should be weighted higher than opportunity.

05-25-2004, 11:27 AM	#9 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	It is an amazing record, but he's still a relief pitcher. I guess he made it because there was nobody that truly dominated AND stayed healthy all year. At least the voters weren't dumb enough to give it to Russ Ortiz. He was about as overrated as you can get last year.

05-25-2004, 04:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	i remember reading a quote some where and I think it was cliff floyd that said, slamming your hand in the car door is a 7 on the pain scale, but swinging and missing on a gagne change up is a 10. hehe not sure if i have that right, still gets the point across. he is just amazing, hitting is all about timing and he just plain fools people. good thing though blalock is in the american league

05-26-2004, 10:28 AM	#12 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Blalock kicks major ass though! I'd love to get him from the Rangers. Too bad there's no way they let him go.

05-30-2004, 03:58 PM	#13 (permalink)
mizer Upright	First of all, Schmidt deserved the Cy Young last year. He was the best pitcher in the National League; Gagne's consecutive saves record is a very superficial one. When Gagne came in for a save, he already had a lead, and he would be pitching to just about any part of the order -- that means lots of 6-7-8, 7-8-9. I'm not doubting his tremendous ability, but it isn't like the degree of difficulty was extremely hard. And when you consider that the times when he was brought in to hold a lead, he did an exceedingly poor job (I'm breaking my own rules by making that kind of statement without a link to back it up, but google it and see for yourself; I'm not pulling it out of my ass). So tell me how valuable he was when the times he was brought in to really save the team, in the most important situations and against the best hitters on the opposing team, he didn't get the job done? The consecutive saves thing is misleading because it gives people the perception that every time he went out there he pitched well. And people also forget that most of the time, in save situations he had a cushion. With a 2 or 3 run lead, even if he gave up a run or two, he still got the save. Jason Schmidt had the lowest ERA and 17 wins on a 100 win team. He came through when the Giants really need him. Gagne didn't really do that for the Dodgers.

05-30-2004, 04:29 PM	#14 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	mizer what the hell are you talking about? Gagne was PERFECT when the Dodgers needed him - at the end of the game. What games were you watching? The 2001 season on ESPN Classic? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

05-31-2004, 03:09 AM	#17 (permalink)
Nimbletoe Junkie Location: Michigan	Dude needs a hair cut. __________________ Go Pistons!

05-31-2004, 09:52 AM	#18 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Nimbletoe, these guys only get haircuts when they are in a slump. I see no necessity. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

05-31-2004, 06:22 PM	#19 (permalink)
hoot Upright	I have seen some good and great closers in my time...Sutter, Reghetti (sp?), Sambito, Wagner, Gossage, L. Smith, Wetteland, etc.... 75 freakin saves in a row is unbelievable! There is no other way about it. I don't care who he is pitching for....75 times in a row he does his job...perfectly. No other way to explain it...that's freaking good.

06-01-2004, 09:18 PM	#22 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	well, take the situation that he isn't good at all. He gives up close games that result in losses because the opponents either walk off or the dodgers cant recover because their hitting sucks. He IS so much more important to them than he would be to the Yankees. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]