Bertuzzi part II - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Artermis · 03-14-2004, 06:25 AM

I got a question or two.

What is worse a cross check from behind into the boards or a punch from behind?

You Av fans have short memories. I remember what Claude did to Draper and to me that was not only way more dangerous but also could have killed him. How long did Claude get? Did the Av fans whine and make excuses for him? Yeah they did on both accounts.

What he did was wrong but not anything worse than at least one other play in every game.

I also do not want to see the police involved. Which is worse sucker punch or a QB lying on the ground with some guy jamming two fingers into your throat with having the added pleasure of having nice leverage? If that did not get the police out to arrest him than this hardly should either.

I believe someone slashing you on purpose from behind is about as bad as getting punched.

The problem wasnt the punch but the fact that he got knocked the fuck out. BTW the Av players (who all did the right thing actually) probably did as much damage to their teammate as Bertuzzi did.

Btw what he did was awful and I can see a 20 game suspension for it but most of guys are making more out of this and just are swallowing the media spin hook, line and sinker.

Art

ToiletDuck · 03-14-2004, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artermis
You Av fans have short memories. I remember what Claude did to Draper and to me that was not only way more dangerous but also could have killed him. How long did Claude get? Did the Av fans whine and make excuses for him? Yeah they did on both accounts.

Coincidence that Mark Crawford was the coach for this hit as well? Well never know. But i agree with you here, this hit was 10x as worse as what Bert did to Moore.

silent_jay · 03-14-2004, 07:34 AM

I agree Lemieux was 100 times worse with his hit on Draper, poor Bertuzzi media kicks the shit out of him, NHL scapegoats him, tough week.

Fly · 03-14-2004, 09:17 AM

........and our chances for a cup are fucked now.

hopefully the new guys will step it up.

dylanmarsh · 03-14-2004, 09:18 AM

Well, I would definitely agree with all of you regarding Claude's stupidity versus Bert's. However, Claude lucked-out and didn't break Draper's neck. I think if Bert had not injured Moore so severely, he'd be in the Canucks' line-up come playoff time. Bettman and Campbell always play to the drama with the media.

Strange Famous · 03-14-2004, 09:36 AM

All he got was a ban for the rest of the season, this is unreasonably lenient, it doesnt send out any kind of message. When I saw people complaing about the harsh punishment, I assumed he had been given a life ban, something that I would approve of.

ToiletDuck · 03-14-2004, 09:44 AM

Yes, he out for the rest of the season and next season is up in the air. But he may have screwed his team in the most important time of the season as well.

Strange Famous · 03-14-2004, 10:17 AM

I pretty much agreed with the article I read in ESPN.com though... at the same time as that guy is being treated like this, people are saying how good fun the Philedelphia game is, and that is the problem hockey has.

Full article:

Quote:

By Ray Ratto
Special to ESPN.com

That's Gary Bettman at the end of the bar, head in hands and pointed straight down, a conga line of boilermakers in front of him. There's no spinning out of the way of this one, and he knows it.

Star Jones and Joy Behar are talking about Todd Bertuzzi, for God's sake, and that a circle of Hell nobody imagined possible.

I mean, everyone understands one guy coming up behind another and sucker-punching him into unconsciousness. It's an easy visual to replay in your head -- Steve Moore goes limp, plummets face-first onto the ice, breaks his neck. One punch, a horrifying outcome. Why, it's the perfect break from BALCO.

And yet, nobody seemed to mind last Friday night when the Ottawa Senators and Philadelphia Flyers engaged in what only can be called a serial brawl.

The two teams, both vying for the illusory benefits of a better seed among Eastern Conference teams in the upcoming Stanley Cup playoffs, broke the league record for penalty minutes with 416. They were so relentlessly cranky that it took the referees, Marc Joannette and Dan Marouelli, a good 90 minutes just to get the penalties squared away for the box scores.

But that's just the box score -- 6½ inches of felonious intent.

What really happened here were all-out bar fights with 1:45 left to play, 1:42 left to play, 1:39 left to play, 1:15 left to play, and 1:13 left to play. Sixteen players were ejected, and ...

... and everyone was cool with it. Hockey players being hockey players.

The difference? Martin Havlat didn't get hurt Friday night, but Steve Moore did on Monday.

This is not to trivialize Bertuzzi's attack on Moore, especially since he had three weeks to think about it. Moore had drilled Vancouver's Markus Naslund in a game in February, and the two teams had played a game since then without overt incident five days earlier.

Bertuzzi lost the rest of his season, as he should have. And frankly, he's lucky it isn't worse. Assuming that the Vancouver P.D. will pass on charging Bertuzzi, the expected work stoppage that will bite a huge hole in next year's season will mean that people will have a long time to forget both men, and the incident that links them.

But selective outrage is a troubling thing. Cowardice, which is the essence of the sucker-punch, is a considerable vice, deserving of all the public opprobrium it is receiving. Then again, so is 40 guys spending an hour clubbing each other without anyone being bothered.

And this is why Bettman is sitting by the Chex Mix and the juke box, wondering if he can get his résumé photocopied without anyone at the office noticing.

It's not just that Todd Bertuzzi has come to represent the NHL the same way Marty McSorley did when he brained Donald Brashear with a stick four years ago. It's not just that the strike/lockout that awaits the sport is going to be a disaster for everyone involved.

It's that people who normally don't pay attention to hockey suddenly are, and hockey purists hate it. At a time when the game's market is shrinking, to attract a new set of interested parties and then to find out that they are utterly horrified is, well, not part of the grand corporate plan.

After all, when your defense against the Meredith Vieiras and Barbara Walterses of the world is, "Well, you should've seen the Kings-Ducks game two weeks ago," you've got problems that even a gallon of eight-year-old Hair O'The Schnauzer isn't going to help.

L'Affaire Bertuzzi is symptomatic of a little-known problem hockey has with television. It actually is easier for the casual observer to absorb a single blow than a parade of fistfights. You cannot effectively reduce the Ottawa-Philly brawl into a single visual, unless the Patrick Lalime-Robert Esche goalie dance strikes your fancy.

And that's mostly for comic effect anyway. Two men with divans strapped to their legs trying to land wild and barely coordinated blows upon each other -- you've done that at least once in your life, and at your uncle's wake.

The Ottawa-Philadelphia game should have been an embarrassment for the NHL, because it was, well, pointless and stupid and antithetical to the idea of the playoff drive. But nobody south or west of Detroit much noticed, or cared.

Call it a bullet dodged.

But only for a few days. Bertuzzi's blow caught the general public at the wrong time, and in the wrong mood. Because one easy-to-see punch counts for more than 200, and one second counts more than 3,600, there is no defense to be raised, not even "It was an isolated incident."

In fact, the big discussion within hockey circles was the traditional "Keep the cops out of it" stance last expressed when McSorley took out Brashear. The fear the league and its defenders have is that one good felony investigation will embolden police in other jurisdictions to begin examining things like the Ottawa-Philly game, and draw far more chilling conclusions than "Boys will be dancing bears sometimes."

And at that point, "Hockey Night at The View" will seem like a charity event.

Ray Ratto is a columnist with the San Francisco Chronicle and a regular contributor to ESPN.com

Ace_O_Spades · 03-14-2004, 10:44 AM

thats a great article

thanks for sharing it

Artermis · 03-14-2004, 10:50 AM

The term broken neck always brings up visions of paralysis and HALOs but in all honestly this is probably not career threatening and certainly was not life threatening.

If they want to make the game more international...then do it..make the ice area larger and do away with fighting but remember you will see even more stick work than you see now. Right now the NHL is in flux by not knowing in which direction they are going to go and until they get a strong leader as Commish we will have the media dictating what the NHL will become.

Art

btw great article

Qazwsxedc · 03-14-2004, 03:59 PM

how long was draper out for again - not as long as moore right?

i think the penalty that Bertuzzi got reflected upon the injury sustained by Moore.

Had Moore not broken his neck, i'm certain Bertuzzi would be playing in the playoffs.

Ace_O_Spades · 03-14-2004, 04:57 PM

we have yet to see how long moore will be out

Go_AVS · 03-14-2004, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artermis
You Av fans have short memories. I remember what Claude did to Draper and to me that was not only way more dangerous but also could have killed him. How long did Claude get? Did the Av fans whine and make excuses for him? Yeah they did on both accounts.

I agree that Claude's hit was probably worse, it was a nasty, dirty hit. The difference was he did not plan it for 2-3 weeks. There was no "bounty". When McCarty kicked Claude's ass and Cluade turtled, he went straight at him. I don't recall McCarty waiting till there was a game that was already decided.

Bertuzzi's punishment, I believe, is in line for the action. I think if this happened in Denver, which was the next time they played, the suspension would have been less. The downside to that is there probably would have already been criminal charges, which I DO NOT think is right.

I just hope Moore will fully recover and play again...

BTW.. Thank you Strange Famous, that was a great article..

Radio Monk33 · 03-15-2004, 12:16 AM

I totally agree that the suspension is fair. Abit too strict, but thats just due to all the media attention.

However, the additional 250 000$ fine to the Canucks is just bullshit. It's already penalizing the organization enough...and its not like the owner told Bertuzzi to suckerpunch Moore.

silent_jay · 03-15-2004, 07:00 AM

Nobody planned this thing 2-3 weeks in advance, players say things like that all the time, and Bertuzzi never made these "bounty" comments it was Brad May, so why was Bertuzzi the one who suffered for them. Why would the suspension have been lighter if the game was played in Denver? This makes no sense to me.

Kurant · 03-15-2004, 07:37 AM

goddamn double post.

Kurant · 03-15-2004, 07:39 AM

It makes sense to me. He broke a mans neck, he did it purposely and he got suspended. He's gone, thank god. Shit like that has no place in professional sports.

Silent_jay, you really honestly think he deserved nothing? For a hit he had no intention on chasing a puck, hitting on a board, nothing. His intention was to hurt Moore, and he did so with a broken neck. He blindsided him, he punched him in the side of the head, tackled him, drove his head into the ice, kept his left hand on his helmet while his head was smashed into the ice, and continued to punch him? I don't give a god damn if you think that's what hockey should be, and is, it's unnwarrentied, and doesn't need to be there. You can say if this, if that, if this happend, well, guess what, it didn't happen. If means nothing.

I'm confused, what the fuck about that screams ANYTHING hockey resembles? Not one god damn thing.

Reguardless of past hits, or past anything, the bottom line is he did it, it was intentional, and now he's been suspended. You can say the suspension is wrong, but to call a hit like that part of hockey, well my friend, you need your head checked.

Seeya Bartuzzi, hopefully your ass is gone another year.

dylanmarsh · 03-15-2004, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
Bertuzzi never made these "bounty" comments it was Brad May

I guess, technically, the Canucks should have taken care of May's comments in house and probably would have avoided the $250,000 fine (Canadian dollars, that is; which is equal to about $5.00 American).

I guess I'm just not understanding your argument, Jay. The league jumped on this because of the media attention and because someone broke his neck. If this had happened in junior, college, or even high school hockey Bertuzzi would be banned permanently and probably thrown in jail for a while. Bertuzzi, The Canucks, and the Canuck fans should all be grateful he is not in jail.

Furthermore, Bertuzzi still has a shot at resuming his hockey career; something Steve Moore most likely does not.

silent_jay · 03-15-2004, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurant
It makes sense to me. He broke a mans neck, he did it purposely and he got suspended. He's gone, thank god. Shit like that has no place in professional sports.

Read what I was talking about before you comment, in other words try reading the posts prior here is what I was talking about

Quote:

Originally posted by Go_AVS
I think if this happened in Denver, which was the next time they played, the suspension would have been less.

This is what made no sense to me why the suspension would of been less had the game been in Denver. Actually I said that at the end so read the whole post.

Second I have never said he deserves nothing just that this suspension is a little harsh considering what has gone on in the league in the past, I see this as being partly the fault of the media for showing the hit over and over again.
Third keep your comments about me needing my head read to yourself the last thread was shut down because of people like you and if that is all you can contribute kindly stay away, unless of course you are a shrink which I highly doubt.

Steve Moore likely won't continue his career is this your medical opinion dylanmarsh, because many players have come back from worse injuries than this, it is my opinion not medical or anything but my personal opinion he will be back in 6-8wks. No making fun of anything Canadian you really don't want to get me started about that that includes our money.

dylanmarsh · 03-15-2004, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay

Steve Moore likely won't continue his career is this your medical opinion dylanmarsh, because many players have come back from worse injuries than this, it is my opinion not medical or anything but my personal opinion he will be back in 6-8wks. No making fun of anything Canadian you really don't want to get me started about that that includes our money.

According to yahoo! currency exchange as of 3/15 at 1:51pm MST:

$250,000 Canadian is equal to $187,729.97 US; a very nice "north of the border" discount for the C-men.

Now, with that clarification out of the way, let's talk neck injuries! Woo-hoo! Moore's injuries include the following: C3 and C4 transverse process spinal fractures; spine ligament injuries at the C3 and C4 level; a closed head injury with concussion; and multiple facial lacerations and abrasions. Mind you, I'm not a medical doctor, nor do I claim to offer a medical opinion, but it seems to me, based upon previous injuries of this nature to other professional athletes (Sterling Sharpe, etc), Mr. Moore is going to have a hell of time coming back and is most likely done, IMHO.

Just out of curiosity, whom were you referring to coming back from worse injuries? I would think that neck injuries would be the worst, but perhaps you know of other more severe injuries.

Any how, I wasn't trying to get you all bent of shape with this discussion, Jay; I was just trying to better understand your stance on the issue. I just don't see how anyone could justify Bertuzzi not being suspended for a year, but then again I don't see how Moore could come back from this injury, either.

Cubby · 03-15-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurant
It makes sense to me. He broke a mans neck, he did it purposely and he got suspended. He's gone, thank god. Shit like that has no place in professional sports.

I really doubt Bertuzzi went onto the ice that shift and said..."You know what? I'm gonna go break Moore's neck!". Sure he may have said he was going to go have at him but you can NOT think he meant to break the guy's neck.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurant
Silent_jay, you really honestly think he deserved nothing? For a hit he had no intention on chasing a puck, hitting on a board, nothing. His intention was to hurt Moore, and he did so with a

Look at Moore's hit on Naslund, he completely blindsided Naslund and "had no intention on playing the puck, hitting on a board, nothing."

A simple 1 or 2 game suspension for that hit would likely have prevented anything else from happening.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurant

broken neck. He blindsided him, he punched him in the side of the head, tackled him, drove his head into the ice, kept his left hand on his helmet while his head was smashed into the ice, and continued to punch him? I don't give a god damn if you think that's what hockey should be, and is, it's unnwarrentied, and doesn't need to be there. You can say if this, if that, if this happend, well, guess what, it didn't happen. If means nothing.

I'm confused, what the fuck about that screams ANYTHING hockey resembles? Not one god damn thing.

Personally I don't think he drove his head into the ice, or for that matter drove him to the ice. And for that matter I doubt he thought he had knocked him out. As for punching when the person is already on the ice, think of all the punches that are thrown when people turtle instead of fighting. I guess all of those people should also be suspended indefinitely....?

I do agree that sucker punches like that though do NOT resemble hockey and should not be tolerated.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurant

Reguardless of past hits, or past anything, the bottom line is he did it, it was intentional, and now he's been suspended. You can say the suspension is wrong, but to call a hit like that part of hockey, well my friend, you need your head checked.

Agreed. A hit like that is not needed in hockey.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurant

Seeya Bartuzzi, hopefully your ass is gone another year.

Bertuzzi's suspension is long enough, based on similar incidents. At this time he has between 13 and 41 games (unlikely) this season and perhaps more next season. On top of that, he has hurt the Canucks' chances immensely. I think that is enough punishment, personally.

Cubby · 03-15-2004, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dylanmarsh
According to yahoo! currency exchange as of 3/15 at 1:51pm MST:

$250,000 Canadian is equal to $187,729.97 US; a very nice "north of the border" discount for the C-men.

Uh..I am presuming that the Canucks were fined $250,000 US not Canadian. So no "discounts" would apply.

silent_jay · 03-15-2004, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dylanmarsh
According to yahoo! currency exchange as of 3/15 at 1:51pm MST:

$250,000 Canadian is equal to $187,729.97 US; a very nice "north of the border" discount for the C-men.

Just out of curiosity, whom were you referring to coming back from worse injuries? I would think that neck injuries would be the worst, but perhaps you know of other more severe injuries.

Any how, I wasn't trying to get you all bent of shape with this discussion, Jay; I was just trying to better understand your stance on the issue. I just don't see how anyone could justify Bertuzzi not being suspended for a year, but then again I don't see how Moore could come back from this injury, either.

These players I was refering to coming back from worse injuries are Mario Lemieux(Cancer), Saku Koivu(Cancer), Gary Roberts(Neck Surgery), Bryan Berard(Eye), Cam Neely(Knee), Steve Yzerman(Knee), Grant Marshall(Broken Neck fractured 3 vertebrae returned 4 months later) this is all I can think of off the top of my head.

I also agree with Cubby that if the original Moore hit on Naslund was punished with a simple 1-2 game suspension things would of not turned out this way.

Not at all bent out of shape here, and I don't think Bertuzzi should be suspended for a year because Moore probably in my opinion won't miss a year. He will probably be back at the beginning of next year and possibly in the playoffs (although unlikely). Bertuzzi should of been suspended for the rest of the year. My original reaction of 5 games was a little off and after seeing a little more I the the rest of the year would of sufficed.

And yes the Canucks were fined in USD.

nash · 03-15-2004, 07:47 PM

A sportswriter for the Washington Post says this:

Quote:

You Don't Understand Hockey

By Sally Jenkins
Monday, March 15, 2004; Page D01

You know what your problem is? You don't understand hockey. See, if you knew more about the game, you would understand that fighting on the ice is part of a century-old tradition, and that what happened between Todd Bertuzzi and Steve Moore is just an "unfortunate incident." If you knew more about hockey, you'd understand the code of retribution, which says that bare-knuckled swinging is actually healthy because it prevents worse things, like, you know, cheap shots and high sticking.

The people who really know hockey understand why Bertuzzi did what he did, and feel bad for the guy, and if you understood the game and all of its finer shadings, you'd feel bad for him too. Instead, all NHL critics keep talking about is Moore 's broken neck, and how yesterday he was moved to a hospital in Colorado that specializes in spinal cord injuries.

Real hockey people wear "Free Bert" T-shirts, like those fans in Vancouver who rallied in support of Bertuzzi over the weekend, led by rally organizer Sean Carl. According to Carl, who is a real hockey guy, Bertuzzi is being persecuted and Moore's injuries have been exaggerated by the Colorado Avalanche. "He's got whiplash," Carl told the Canadian Press wire service. "Steve Moore will walk."

Real hockey people know Bertuzzi didn't mean to half-kill Moore, he only meant to catch him with a fist from behind and maybe give him a bad concussion and some payback, which is why he drove his forehead into the ice. A real hockey guy is a guy like Canucks Coach Marc Crawford, who's clearly unhappy with the NHL's suspension of Bertuzzi for the rest of the season and the $250,000 fine of the team, and who complains that Bertuzzi has been "crucified" in the press -- which by the way is full of a bunch of know-nothing non-hockey people like that guy Damien Cox of the Toronto Star, who has charged Crawford with "smirking" as Moore hit the ice, and who is convinced that had Bertuzzi not been stopped by Andrei Nikolishin, he might have administered a death blow, because he had his fist raised to hit him again.

If you know hockey, you know there was a "bounty" on Moore because two weeks earlier Moore delivered a hit to the head of Canucks captain Markus Naslund. If you really know hockey, you take umbrage at the squeamish outside commentators who criticize the NHL ethic of payback and retribution, and who have a problem with the fact that the Canucks and the Avalanche had no fewer than four fights before Bertuzzi laid out Moore. Or who wince in disgust when they hear that the Ottawa Senators and Philadelphia Flyers combined for a league-record 419 penalty minutes in a single game.

These are the same squeamish commentators who feel the stylish and relatively non-violent hockey played at the Olympics makes NHL hockey look like an inferior spectator product. There is hard checking and plenty of smashing into the glass, but almost no fistfighting. Throughout the Salt Lake Olympics, some NHL all-stars talked wistfully of how they wished the game could be played that way all the time. But that's exactly the kind of ridiculous view that turns people off to the game.

A real hockey guy is Don Cherry, the host-commentator of "Hockey Night in Canada," who shows highlights of fights, and has railed against the NHL's decision to fine the Canucks. In the view of Cherry, the Colorado coaches were partly at fault for not knowing that the Canucks were coming for Moore, and putting a protector on the ice with him. Cherry doesn't go over very big with people who don't know hockey, like Emile Therien, president of the Canada Safety Council, who complained to the CBC that Cherry has been "a willing participant in condoning violence and fighting in hockey."

There are even some people within hockey who aren't real hockey guys. For instance, there are some traitors to the game who actually feel that Bertuzzi should be dealt with more harshly, and be prosecuted in a court of law. Among them is Hall of Famer Mike Bossy, who wrote an editorial for the New York Times on Sunday in which he suggested Bertuzzi ought to be thrown out of the game all together. Bossy says, "I've been preaching to deaf ears for the last 25 years that one day someone is going to leave his house to go to a game and he is not going to return." Bossy says, "Our tolerance for illegal acts is astounding and our acceptance of them is unacceptable." Bossy says the league's suspension of Bertuzzi for the rest of the season is "ridiculously lenient," and, "Anybody who thinks Bertuzzi received the correct punishment is in fact condoning his actions."

If you want to hear from a real hockey guy, listen to former NHL player Nick Kypreos, who advanced the alternate view that while Bertuzzi was out of line, there's nothing wrong with brawling on the ice, and in fact it keeps people from getting hurt. "Fighting's something that keeps your opponent honest. It was the one thing to keep another team from taking cheap shots and taking liberties at your teammates. It's supposed to be a valve, an outlet, an alternative from using your stick as a weapon."

Basically, there are two kinds of hockey people, the people who understand hockey, and the people who only think they understand hockey. They keep arguing about what happened between Bertuzzi and Moore, and they won't let the matter rest. Maybe the reason they keep arguing is because what's at stake is the definition of hockey itself.

I was surprised that I agree with her on much of the stuff she writes about, including this.

silent_jay · 03-16-2004, 06:32 AM

Wow she is a wise lady when it comes to hockey, maybe now people understand why some of us see this is just another incident.

Great post nash thanks.

dylanmarsh · 03-16-2004, 10:42 AM

I think the Grant Marshall example is an equal and hopeful example for Moore. Neck injuries seem to be on their own separate level from other injuries. Although cancer can be and should be considered a very tough condition to recover from, I think to compare it to Moore's or Marshall's injuries doesn't seem very germane. But, yes, I do agree with you now that players have come back from severe injuries, and, perhaps, Moore will do the same. One can hope.

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay

Not at all bent out of shape here, and I don't think Bertuzzi should be suspended for a year because Moore probably in my opinion won't miss a year. He will probably be back at the beginning of next year and possibly in the playoffs (although unlikely). Bertuzzi should of been suspended for the rest of the year. My original reaction of 5 games was a little off and after seeing a little more I the the rest of the year would of sufficed.

In a round-about way, you bring up a very interesting point about suspensions. Do you think it would be beneficial or even feasible for suspensions to be based upon the amount of time the injuried player is sidelined? For instance, let's say Moore is unable to play for 25 games, do you think it would be fair/appropriate for Bertuzzi to serve that amount of time? I've always been resentful of Ulfie taking out Neely's knee and career, and always thought it would be appropriate for Ulfie to serve the same sentence he gave to Cam (yes, I know Cam came back for a little bit, but was never the same). It is extreme, in a way, but it might prevent headhunters and blatant cheap-shots like Bertuzzi's. What do you think? Being the ex-player, would this sort of punishment stopped you from exacting revenge? The suspensions seem very arbitrary and not consistent.

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
And yes the Canucks were fined in USD.

My bad. I got the bad information from ESPN.com; I suppose I should stick with TSN for hockey info.

Cubby · 03-16-2004, 12:40 PM

I've been thinking about penalties that match the injury as well but that would open a whole new can. Would you then suspend the person that takes a swing at a stick only to break a finger? And would that suspension be the 4-6 weeks required to mend the bones?

And then of course there is the concussions that have followed clean open ice hits...should those also be served as suspensions?

I think basing it on the injury to a player is not going to work. You'd then also need to take into account pre-existing conditions. (eg. The next hit on Lindros may end his career, but it wouldn't be fair to suspend a player that hits him for ending his career as it is a culmulation of events).

Just some thoughts..

silent_jay · 03-16-2004, 10:46 PM

I agree that basing it on injury time off may work in some situations, but like cubby said you have to take into consideration pre-existing conditions, and you can't use one system to suspend players for some actions and one for another, but in some situation it would work. My opinion as an ex-player is that punishment to suit injury time off wouldn't of stopped me from extracting revenge, and I was a Scott Stevens style defenceman so I was fairly physical and fought regularly, but that's just my opinion as an ex-player.

Quote:

Originally posted by dylanmarsh
My bad. I got the bad information from ESPN.com; I suppose I should stick with TSN for hockey info.

Always go with the Canadian station for hockey info.

Annabella · 03-17-2004, 03:17 PM

I think that thigs that Bertuzzi did don't belong to ice-hockey..Somewhere else but not in hockey for sake..!

Cubby · 03-18-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Annabella
I think that thigs that Bertuzzi did don't belong to ice-hockey..Somewhere else but not in hockey for sake..!

Where else would they belong? Obviously sucker punches and such shouldn't belong anywhere. Bertuzzi did the crime and will serve the punishment. But I'm curious to know where you think that type of thing belongs...??

silent_jay · 03-18-2004, 01:03 PM

moi aussi

silent_jay · 03-23-2004, 08:55 AM

Now Belak gets 6 regular season games and 2 play-off games for his stick swinging thing, which was not bad at all. It warranted a suspension of maybe 2 games, because the guy who got high sticked brought Belaks stick around because he was hooking him. I know you're supposed to be in control of your stick at all times but come on. Havlat cross-checks Recci in the head a few weeks ago and gets nothing, not even a freakin penalty. I think the league should stop trying to change the game and start looking at the way players are disciplined, that is the main problem with the league, not the size of pads, or blockers, or the red and blue lines. It's the fact that Colin Campbell has his head shoved so far up his ass he hasn't seen the light since 1975. As Roenick said "NHL WAKE UP"

And what is Selane bitching about I seem to remember him throwing elbows and high sticks all over the place for the maority of his career, he should practice what he preaches. He could always go back to Finland and play I'm sure no one would miss him.

Cubby · 03-24-2004, 03:18 PM

I'm not sure silent_jay I thought Belak's swing was pretty brutal..although I only saw it a few times. Not nearly the coverage on that hit, than on Bertuzzi's.

I do so agree with you though about discipline. The league needs to be consistent. If they are now saying this is the new standard on hits and these will be the suspensions you get, then fine but don't change your suspensions just because it getting close to the playoffs.

The same thing goes for penalties in my mind. At the beginning of every year the league starts calling all sorts of obstruction penalties saying that it is the way they need to go to keep the flow of the game. By playoff time and into playoffs, 75% of those penalties are not called. This of course lets the weaker, clutch and grab teams have much better success in the playoffs.

Consistency is the key...

silent_jay · 03-24-2004, 10:56 PM

The play-offs have basically turned into a free for all, the last 10-15 minutes look like Aussie rules football on most nights, I agree cubby they need to develop a system and stick with it.

03-14-2004, 06:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
Artermis Insane Location: I live where all the morons live	Bertuzzi part II I got a question or two. What is worse a cross check from behind into the boards or a punch from behind? You Av fans have short memories. I remember what Claude did to Draper and to me that was not only way more dangerous but also could have killed him. How long did Claude get? Did the Av fans whine and make excuses for him? Yeah they did on both accounts. What he did was wrong but not anything worse than at least one other play in every game. I also do not want to see the police involved. Which is worse sucker punch or a QB lying on the ground with some guy jamming two fingers into your throat with having the added pleasure of having nice leverage? If that did not get the police out to arrest him than this hardly should either. I believe someone slashing you on purpose from behind is about as bad as getting punched. The problem wasnt the punch but the fact that he got knocked the fuck out. BTW the Av players (who all did the right thing actually) probably did as much damage to their teammate as Bertuzzi did. Btw what he did was awful and I can see a 20 game suspension for it but most of guys are making more out of this and just are swallowing the media spin hook, line and sinker. Art

03-14-2004, 07:34 AM	#3 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I agree Lemieux was 100 times worse with his hit on Draper, poor Bertuzzi media kicks the shit out of him, NHL scapegoats him, tough week. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-14-2004, 09:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
Fly see the links to my music? Location: Beautiful British Columbia	........and our chances for a cup are fucked now. hopefully the new guys will step it up. __________________ BASTARD SterlingStudios

03-14-2004, 09:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	All he got was a ban for the rest of the season, this is unreasonably lenient, it doesnt send out any kind of message. When I saw people complaing about the harsh punishment, I assumed he had been given a life ban, something that I would approve of. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-14-2004, 10:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	thats a great article thanks for sharing it __________________ Feh.

03-14-2004, 09:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Well, I would definitely agree with all of you regarding Claude's stupidity versus Bert's. However, Claude lucked-out and didn't break Draper's neck. I think if Bert had not injured Moore so severely, he'd be in the Canucks' line-up come playoff time. Bettman and Campbell always play to the drama with the media.

03-14-2004, 09:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
ToiletDuck Insane Location: In beautiful (YOUR AREA)	Yes, he out for the rest of the season and next season is up in the air. But he may have screwed his team in the most important time of the season as well.

03-14-2004, 10:50 AM	#10 (permalink)
Artermis Insane Location: I live where all the morons live	The term broken neck always brings up visions of paralysis and HALOs but in all honestly this is probably not career threatening and certainly was not life threatening. If they want to make the game more international...then do it..make the ice area larger and do away with fighting but remember you will see even more stick work than you see now. Right now the NHL is in flux by not knowing in which direction they are going to go and until they get a strong leader as Commish we will have the media dictating what the NHL will become. Art btw great article

03-14-2004, 03:59 PM	#11 (permalink)
Qazwsxedc Insane	how long was draper out for again - not as long as moore right? i think the penalty that Bertuzzi got reflected upon the injury sustained by Moore. Had Moore not broken his neck, i'm certain Bertuzzi would be playing in the playoffs.

03-14-2004, 04:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	we have yet to see how long moore will be out __________________ Feh.

03-15-2004, 12:16 AM	#14 (permalink)
Radio Monk33 Psycho	I totally agree that the suspension is fair. Abit too strict, but thats just due to all the media attention. However, the additional 250 000$ fine to the Canucks is just bullshit. It's already penalizing the organization enough...and its not like the owner told Bertuzzi to suckerpunch Moore. __________________ "Punk rock had this cool, political personal message. It was a bit more cerebral than just stupid cock rock, you know" -Kurt Cobain

03-15-2004, 07:00 AM	#15 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Nobody planned this thing 2-3 weeks in advance, players say things like that all the time, and Bertuzzi never made these "bounty" comments it was Brad May, so why was Bertuzzi the one who suffered for them. Why would the suspension have been lighter if the game was played in Denver? This makes no sense to me. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-15-2004, 07:37 AM	#16 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	goddamn double post. Last edited by Kurant; 03-15-2004 at 07:40 AM..

03-15-2004, 07:39 AM	#17 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	It makes sense to me. He broke a mans neck, he did it purposely and he got suspended. He's gone, thank god. Shit like that has no place in professional sports. Silent_jay, you really honestly think he deserved nothing? For a hit he had no intention on chasing a puck, hitting on a board, nothing. His intention was to hurt Moore, and he did so with a broken neck. He blindsided him, he punched him in the side of the head, tackled him, drove his head into the ice, kept his left hand on his helmet while his head was smashed into the ice, and continued to punch him? I don't give a god damn if you think that's what hockey should be, and is, it's unnwarrentied, and doesn't need to be there. You can say if this, if that, if this happend, well, guess what, it didn't happen. If means nothing. I'm confused, what the fuck about that screams ANYTHING hockey resembles? Not one god damn thing. Reguardless of past hits, or past anything, the bottom line is he did it, it was intentional, and now he's been suspended. You can say the suspension is wrong, but to call a hit like that part of hockey, well my friend, you need your head checked. Seeya Bartuzzi, hopefully your ass is gone another year. Last edited by Kurant; 03-15-2004 at 07:44 AM..

03-16-2004, 06:32 AM	#25 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Wow she is a wise lady when it comes to hockey, maybe now people understand why some of us see this is just another incident. Great post nash thanks. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-16-2004, 12:40 PM	#27 (permalink)
Cubby Insane Location: BC, Canada	I've been thinking about penalties that match the injury as well but that would open a whole new can. Would you then suspend the person that takes a swing at a stick only to break a finger? And would that suspension be the 4-6 weeks required to mend the bones? And then of course there is the concussions that have followed clean open ice hits...should those also be served as suspensions? I think basing it on the injury to a player is not going to work. You'd then also need to take into account pre-existing conditions. (eg. The next hit on Lindros may end his career, but it wouldn't be fair to suspend a player that hits him for ending his career as it is a culmulation of events). Just some thoughts.. __________________ Don't be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted!

03-17-2004, 03:17 PM	#29 (permalink)
Annabella Tilted	I think that thigs that Bertuzzi did don't belong to ice-hockey..Somewhere else but not in hockey for sake..! __________________ Milloin vaan voi kiihoittua!!

03-18-2004, 01:03 PM	#31 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	moi aussi __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-23-2004, 08:55 AM	#32 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Now Belak gets 6 regular season games and 2 play-off games for his stick swinging thing, which was not bad at all. It warranted a suspension of maybe 2 games, because the guy who got high sticked brought Belaks stick around because he was hooking him. I know you're supposed to be in control of your stick at all times but come on. Havlat cross-checks Recci in the head a few weeks ago and gets nothing, not even a freakin penalty. I think the league should stop trying to change the game and start looking at the way players are disciplined, that is the main problem with the league, not the size of pads, or blockers, or the red and blue lines. It's the fact that Colin Campbell has his head shoved so far up his ass he hasn't seen the light since 1975. As Roenick said "NHL WAKE UP" And what is Selane bitching about I seem to remember him throwing elbows and high sticks all over the place for the maority of his career, he should practice what he preaches. He could always go back to Finland and play I'm sure no one would miss him. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-24-2004, 03:18 PM	#33 (permalink)
Cubby Insane Location: BC, Canada	I'm not sure silent_jay I thought Belak's swing was pretty brutal..although I only saw it a few times. Not nearly the coverage on that hit, than on Bertuzzi's. I do so agree with you though about discipline. The league needs to be consistent. If they are now saying this is the new standard on hits and these will be the suspensions you get, then fine but don't change your suspensions just because it getting close to the playoffs. The same thing goes for penalties in my mind. At the beginning of every year the league starts calling all sorts of obstruction penalties saying that it is the way they need to go to keep the flow of the game. By playoff time and into playoffs, 75% of those penalties are not called. This of course lets the weaker, clutch and grab teams have much better success in the playoffs. Consistency is the key... __________________ Don't be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted!

03-24-2004, 10:56 PM	#34 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	The play-offs have basically turned into a free for all, the last 10-15 minutes look like Aussie rules football on most nights, I agree cubby they need to develop a system and stick with it. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder