Colin Campbell to NHL Goalies: NO MORE PUCK FOR YOU!! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

archer2371 · 02-12-2004, 01:43 PM

Actually, it's more like a LOT more puck for them, they just can't do anything about it.

here's the linkah
and here's the article:

Quote:

Wednesday, February 11, 2004
Updated: February 12, 4:42 AM ET

Associated Press
HENDERSON, Nev. -- Martin Brodeur, Trevor Kidd and other NHL goalies are unhappy with the general managers' plans on how to create more offense.

Colin Campbell, the league's hockey operations director, is tired of hearing the complaints.

Reducing the width of goaltenders' pads and prohibiting them from going behind the goal line to play the puck are not good solutions to those who play the position. That small group, however, is in the minority.

"I might seem a little aggravated, but every time we do something to do the right thing for the game, we get knee-jerk reactions from some aspect of our business," Campbell said. "We're just trying to do the right thing."

These were part of the solutions the GMs are proposing to add scoring to hockey, a sport in which goals per game have dwindled to five.

As general managers hurried from the board room to the airport after a three-day meeting outside Las Vegas, most talked about Tuesday's significant announcement.

Pads would be reduced from 12 inches to 10 and goalies wouldn't be able to play pucks behind the line if the changes are approved by a panel of hockey experts and then the board of governors this summer.

The proposed adjustments drew the ire of Vezina Trophy winner Brodeur and Toronto's Kidd.

After practice Wednesday, Kidd held up 11-inch pads used in developmental leagues and was incredulous that the NHL wanted to make them even smaller.

Campbell was not impressed.

"Trevor Kidd can say that, but if I were him I'd work on my game," Campbell said. "We work hard. We don't just grab things from our back pocket and say, 'Let's try this.' We do a lot of work on this."

Brodeur has made an art of getting to pucks behind his net and then acting like a third defenseman to get them out. That skill would be taken away from his game.

"Seeing a goalie handling the puck, that's pretty exciting," Campbell said sarcastically. "I thought it was pretty exciting seeing Mike Gartner and Guy Lafleur going down the wing and scoring. Now we have to go down and shove it through the side of their pads or jam it in at the side of the net."

Brodeur, a cornerstone of New Jersey's three Stanley Cup titles in nine years, was upset by the thought of being penalized for adding a dimension to his position.

"With the equipment, whatever they want to do is fine with me," he said. "But preventing somebody's talent and somebody's reaction, I mean I'm not hurting anybody. I'm not setting a bad example for kids by playing the puck behind the line, so I don't know if this is something I should be penalized for.

"But the league is at a state right now that it looks like they don't know what they're doing and they're just looking for ways to try to improve the game. Coming from people that know hockey, it's amazing that they're about to come out with these things."

Campbell's rebuttal was that goalies were never intended to be puck handlers. The pads are there for safety and not to block shots, and their sticks are solely meant to stop shots.

"We had suggestions like, 'Let's give them two blockers, not a catching mitt,"' Campbell said. "So we looked at everything."

The general managers also agreed that the tag-up offside rule should be reinstated; that nets be moved back 3 feet toward the end boards to 10 feet; and that blue lines would also move in 3 feet to keep the distance the same between the blue line and the goal, and increase the neutral zones to 60 feet from 54.

After a one-year experiment in the AHL, the shootout might be added to NHL play to eliminate ties.

"Over the next three or four months some of these things are going to be refined and thought about," said Detroit GM Ken Holland, a former goalie. "It's a great game, but we've got to figure out how to make it better."

Campbell expressed confidence that the work done this week produced changes that will be approved.

"Everything from my point of view is hard and fast with the exception of the interpretation on the goaltenders not handling the puck," Campbell said. "We'll meet again in six to eight weeks with the definitions on how this will be put into use."

During the final day of meetings, the group was given an update regarding the collective bargaining agreement that expires Sept. 15.

Arthur Levitt, the former chair of the U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission, will present results of his study into the NHL's finances during a news conference Thursday in New York. Levitt was retained by the NHL a year ago.

Oy, is it just me or is the NHL getting dumber, and dumber, and dumber every year? Look, this is not the answer to improve scoring. Take out the Red Line which would eliminate the two line pass rule, and THAT would improve scoring and breakaways. Maybe even make the trap illegal (tho I don't know how that work, it's probably unfeasible anyways). I'm a strong advocate for the goalies, cuz I used to be one myself. I know what it's like to sit in for the entire game and try to be the hero. It was hard enough as is, and if they make these changes it would be even harder. Puck handling has become an essential skill for some goalies out there, and I don't think it's fair to take away that awesome skill. How about this NHL, loosen your illegal stick rules to allow for some bigger blades on those twigs, THAT will most definitely increase scoring and accuracy. To me, Mr. Campbell sounds like one of those really annoying idiots at school that whoever had a complaint they would make fun of with a very immature "Wahhhhh, does the wittle baby want to cwy?" Ugh, I just hate the tone that this guy has, and I wish these GM meetings would produce something that's actually productive!!

grumpyolddude · 02-12-2004, 05:47 PM

No problem with the equipment rule. The league should eliminate baggy jerseys, too. A goalie should be stopping shots with his talent, not his tailor (Roy, Gigiure, etc.)

Moving the goal may be alright, but preventing the goalie from playing the puck behind the goal line is going too far. Change the equipment, but let the players play!

Kaos · 02-12-2004, 06:26 PM

Equipment rule is fine. I think the goalies may even improve their game with lighter equipment and thus be more agile than ever.

The rest is pure garbage. A high scoring game does not make for more exciting hockey. A tense 1-1 tie game with lots of awesome scoring chances, and even more awesome goalie saves makes a great game. Getting rid of the Red Line and the Two line pass rule would help this.

And not being able to play the puck???? Goalies like Brodeur's, Belfour's, etc great puck handling and quick passes during a change-up create scoring chances!

Now they need a limit on how long the goalie can hold the puck since they cannot be hit. Maybe a delay of game penalty if they hold onto the puck for more than 3 seconds or something.

They want to minimize injuries? Ain't gonna happen if the goalie can't stop the puck when it's shot into the zone. How many players (defence and forwards) are going to be going full tilt at the boards when the puck is shot in and the goalie has to let it cycle around the boards.

FleaCircus · 02-12-2004, 06:27 PM

I'm okay with the resizing the goalie equipment and reinstating the tag-up offsides rule, but how does moving the goal line back 3 feet affect anything when they're also moving the blue line 3 feet?

If they want a higher-scoring game, 3 extra feet in the offensive zones would do more than 6 feet in the neutral zone.

As far as not allowing the goalies to play the puck, the specifics on that are still pretty vague. I'm waiting for more before I get angry at that one.

TheShadow · 02-12-2004, 09:10 PM

I'm in agreement with the pad reduction. Some goalies are just sitting on the crease with giant pads, stopping everything, which makes the game extremely boring.

As for the no playing behind the line idea, it's a horrible idea. It would take away alot from goalies who happen to excel in that area...

absorbentishe · 02-13-2004, 06:17 AM

I'm in total agreement with everyone else here, the pads need/have needed to be changed for a while. But for the goalie not playing the puck, not sure how this will help. If a goal plays the puck wrong, falls down, etc, the opposing team has an empty net. This does happen, but when he plays it right, it may lead to his team to rushing and scoring.

Guess we just need to wait until the final rules are in place before we can really make judgement.

FleaCircus · 02-13-2004, 02:40 PM

I heard a little more about this goalie thing. The current rumor about the interpretation of the "goalies can't play the puck" rule doesn't prevent the goalie from playing the puck ahead of the goal line (like some goalies do in a power play situation.)

However, if the puck crosses the goal line, then the goalie may play the puck, but he can not move the puck back across the goal line toward center ice.

This is all still rumor, and things may change, but this seems to be a more complete explanation of the proposal.

Spartak · 02-13-2004, 03:28 PM

Five goals per game ? OH NO THATS SO TERRIBLE!!! We must strive to make every NHL game like the all-star game!!!

Honestly, what the hell is he smoking ? The pads I can agree with, but not letting the goalie play the puck and turning him into a sitting duck ? What the hell is that all about ? And what about international hockey ? Goalies can play the puck in that, but not in the mighty NHL ?

Give me a break. What I think is happening, is the players are loving their enormous contracts (while driving the NHL into the ground financially) and therefore are not playing as hard because they are too afraid of losing them. I say salary cap their asses and make them play for their contracts.

Cheers.

silent_jay · 02-13-2004, 05:18 PM

i'm fine with the pad and equiptment changes, and i like the tag up rule, moving the nets back would be great, but goalies not playing the puck is terrible I agree with Belfour when he said that this is a rule made up by GM's with goalies who can't play the puck. and why does the NHL want to make the red and blue lines wider that is just stupid to even be considered.

saut · 02-15-2004, 08:46 AM

I always thought the goalie was the most exciting part of a hockey game... for me, there's nothing better than watching a great goalie diving all over and making incredible saves.

My jaw dropped when I saw they were considering taking away the goalie's glove and replacing it with a second blocker - as someone who used to play goalie, catching the puck was always a very,very satisfying experience.

Hopefully they can come up with something else to spice hockey up without crippling the most crucial player on the ice.

Nikilidstrom · 02-15-2004, 10:19 AM

Has anyone considered the defensemen in this situation? They are going to be skating their fool asses off trying to chase the puck down on dump ins. teams are going to have to go with a 4th defensive pairing just to keep them from collapsing on the ice.

And the no red line deal was tried in the AHL, and it didn't work. Caused alot more offsides and even more/longer dump ins when accompanied with moving the bluelines. As far as I'm concerned, the more rules like this implemented to make it more like international hockey, the less I'll watch. The Olympics featured the most boring hockey I have ever seen. Breakaway after breakaway after breakaway is not what I consider entertaining hockey.

One more thing. The possible addition of a shootout is absurd. While it will artificially add 2 or 3 goals a game in situations where there would normally be a tie, it is an insulting way to steal a game from a less talented team who just got done grinding out a hard fought tie with a better team. If you put teams like L.A.(with injuries), Minnesota, or Nashville, against the majority of teams in the league in a shootout, they are going to lose, because they simply do not have the sniper type players that a team like the Wings or the Avs have. San Jose would also be nowhere if this rule had been in place this season, and if any team deserves to be where they are at right now, it is the Sharks.

Tirian · 02-17-2004, 08:54 AM

ditto to much of what has already been said.

in addition to the goalies pads getting smaller, I'd also suggest making the catching mit a little smaller. Like my old brown leather one from the 70's. ya it requires great skill and little luck to catch a puck in that thing. ok maybe not that small, but they should not allow the butterfly nets currently in use either!

and at the risk of repeating myself - the day the NHL starts using the shootout is the day I retire as a hockey fan!!!!!!!

silent_jay · 02-17-2004, 09:21 AM

me too i can't stand the idea of a shoot out all that is accomplished is that one team was luckier than the other on that particular day

bigbad · 02-21-2004, 04:32 AM

The size thing is great, the tag-up offside should help keep game times to a reasonable limit, the moving the net back might help or might not can't say at the moment, but the goalie behind the net thing is stupid and I totally disagree with it. While it would help Vancouver more than most teams (since Cloutier can't handle a puck worth shit) I think that it would take out a huge part of most goalies' games. I also hate the new penalty shot rule they put in, they should have to have control of it in order for a penalty shot to be called.

silent_jay · 02-21-2004, 06:36 AM

Clouthier is one of the best puck handling goaltenders in the NHL

bigbad · 02-21-2004, 07:45 PM

Cloutier couldn't handle a friggin beachball lol. In order to get anywhere while we still have the players capable of making a run we need to get a REAL goalie, and soon. At the moment our farm system is looking pretty poor, so this may be the last time for a long while that we actually have a chance, but it's all wasted if we keep Cloutier as our starter.

silent_jay · 02-21-2004, 08:19 PM

Clouthier is a fine goaltender fans are fickle and when he plays bad people complain, I hope Burke doesn't jump the gun, wait till the play-offs. Look at my Lefa they're stuck with Trevor Kidd for a back-up, Trevor freakin Kidd. Don't put down Clouthier too much because the same fans that are doing that now will be hopping back on the bandwagon when play picks up.

And why are people people complaining and blaming Clouthier for the 4-5-0-1 record in the last 10 because I'm sure there are more players on the team than him. Be thankful the Canucks are 6 points out of first in the NHL last time I looked that's a pretty good spot to be in just after the all-star break.

bigbad · 02-23-2004, 01:32 AM

I'm not blaming him for it, the whole team has been playing like shit lately, but I've been anti-Cloutier for years now, even when the Canucks were playing extremely well, so no bandwagon here

And I'm damn thankful Canucks are doing so well, it sucked to be a Canucks fan in the late 90's and I was mocked for it harsh, now you see people joining the bandwagon in cities all over the place.

silent_jay · 02-23-2004, 06:30 AM

You should have tried bieng a Leafs fan in the 80's it wasn't pretty.

bigbad · 02-23-2004, 09:05 PM

I bet hehe

Still, we both had it better than a Rangers fan for 50-something years, eh?

silent_jay · 02-23-2004, 11:04 PM

Those poor Rangers fans they waited so long and they will probably have to wait another 50 some years the way thing are going.

What's this about the NHL wanting the blue and red lines too be like 2 feet thick or somethjing like that, that's just insane would that ever be distracting to be watching a game with these big ass lines.

bigbad · 02-24-2004, 12:15 AM

LOL I couldn't see the point of those either, it's gonna start looking like a French flag down there

silent_jay · 02-24-2004, 05:34 AM

I never thought about it looking like the French flag down on the rink, what was it I heard about giving the goalies another blocker instead of a trapper WTF is the NHL smoking and I don't think it's green.

bigbad · 02-27-2004, 01:43 AM

LOL I heard that one too, I would pity the poor guys who spent so much work perfecting their glove saves only to have it go to waste. While I like the fact they are trying to do something to save the league, there are too many REALLY way out there ideas floating around.

silent_jay · 02-27-2004, 07:36 AM

I agree the ideas are way out there, and they have to figure something out to save thre league

02-12-2004, 05:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
grumpyolddude Deliberately unfocused Location: Amazon.com and CDBaby	No problem with the equipment rule. The league should eliminate baggy jerseys, too. A goalie should be stopping shots with his talent, not his tailor (Roy, Gigiure, etc.) Moving the goal may be alright, but preventing the goalie from playing the puck behind the goal line is going too far. Change the equipment, but let the players play! __________________ "Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

02-12-2004, 06:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
FleaCircus Insane Location: Denver, CO	I'm okay with the resizing the goalie equipment and reinstating the tag-up offsides rule, but how does moving the goal line back 3 feet affect anything when they're also moving the blue line 3 feet? If they want a higher-scoring game, 3 extra feet in the offensive zones would do more than 6 feet in the neutral zone. As far as not allowing the goalies to play the puck, the specifics on that are still pretty vague. I'm waiting for more before I get angry at that one. __________________ "We must have waffles. We must all have waffles, forthwith. Oh, we must think. We must all have waffles and think, each and every one of us to the very best of his ability." -- Professor Goldthwait Higginson Dorr, Ph.D.

02-12-2004, 09:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
TheShadow Crazy Location: Vancouver, Canada	I'm in agreement with the pad reduction. Some goalies are just sitting on the crease with giant pads, stopping everything, which makes the game extremely boring. As for the no playing behind the line idea, it's a horrible idea. It would take away alot from goalies who happen to excel in that area... __________________ You know that song that goes like...

02-13-2004, 02:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
FleaCircus Insane Location: Denver, CO	I heard a little more about this goalie thing. The current rumor about the interpretation of the "goalies can't play the puck" rule doesn't prevent the goalie from playing the puck ahead of the goal line (like some goalies do in a power play situation.) However, if the puck crosses the goal line, then the goalie may play the puck, but he can not move the puck back across the goal line toward center ice. This is all still rumor, and things may change, but this seems to be a more complete explanation of the proposal. __________________ "We must have waffles. We must all have waffles, forthwith. Oh, we must think. We must all have waffles and think, each and every one of us to the very best of his ability." -- Professor Goldthwait Higginson Dorr, Ph.D.

02-13-2004, 03:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
Spartak Bang bang Location: New Zealand	Five goals per game ? OH NO THATS SO TERRIBLE!!! We must strive to make every NHL game like the all-star game!!! Honestly, what the hell is he smoking ? The pads I can agree with, but not letting the goalie play the puck and turning him into a sitting duck ? What the hell is that all about ? And what about international hockey ? Goalies can play the puck in that, but not in the mighty NHL ? Give me a break. What I think is happening, is the players are loving their enormous contracts (while driving the NHL into the ground financially) and therefore are not playing as hard because they are too afraid of losing them. I say salary cap their asses and make them play for their contracts. Cheers. __________________ I can read your mind... looking at you... I can read your mind...

02-12-2004, 06:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Kaos Ssssssssss Location: Ontario	Equipment rule is fine. I think the goalies may even improve their game with lighter equipment and thus be more agile than ever. The rest is pure garbage. A high scoring game does not make for more exciting hockey. A tense 1-1 tie game with lots of awesome scoring chances, and even more awesome goalie saves makes a great game. Getting rid of the Red Line and the Two line pass rule would help this. And not being able to play the puck???? Goalies like Brodeur's, Belfour's, etc great puck handling and quick passes during a change-up create scoring chances! Now they need a limit on how long the goalie can hold the puck since they cannot be hit. Maybe a delay of game penalty if they hold onto the puck for more than 3 seconds or something. They want to minimize injuries? Ain't gonna happen if the goalie can't stop the puck when it's shot into the zone. How many players (defence and forwards) are going to be going full tilt at the boards when the puck is shot in and the goalie has to let it cycle around the boards.

02-13-2004, 06:17 AM	#6 (permalink)
absorbentishe Boy am I horny today Location: T O L E D O, Toledo!!	I'm in total agreement with everyone else here, the pads need/have needed to be changed for a while. But for the goalie not playing the puck, not sure how this will help. If a goal plays the puck wrong, falls down, etc, the opposing team has an empty net. This does happen, but when he plays it right, it may lead to his team to rushing and scoring. Guess we just need to wait until the final rules are in place before we can really make judgement.

02-13-2004, 05:18 PM	#9 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	i'm fine with the pad and equiptment changes, and i like the tag up rule, moving the nets back would be great, but goalies not playing the puck is terrible I agree with Belfour when he said that this is a rule made up by GM's with goalies who can't play the puck. and why does the NHL want to make the red and blue lines wider that is just stupid to even be considered. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-15-2004, 08:46 AM	#10 (permalink)
saut Registered User Location: Pittsburgh	I always thought the goalie was the most exciting part of a hockey game... for me, there's nothing better than watching a great goalie diving all over and making incredible saves. My jaw dropped when I saw they were considering taking away the goalie's glove and replacing it with a second blocker - as someone who used to play goalie, catching the puck was always a very,very satisfying experience. Hopefully they can come up with something else to spice hockey up without crippling the most crucial player on the ice.

02-15-2004, 10:19 AM	#11 (permalink)
Nikilidstrom Stick it in your five hole! Location: Michigan, USA	Has anyone considered the defensemen in this situation? They are going to be skating their fool asses off trying to chase the puck down on dump ins. teams are going to have to go with a 4th defensive pairing just to keep them from collapsing on the ice. And the no red line deal was tried in the AHL, and it didn't work. Caused alot more offsides and even more/longer dump ins when accompanied with moving the bluelines. As far as I'm concerned, the more rules like this implemented to make it more like international hockey, the less I'll watch. The Olympics featured the most boring hockey I have ever seen. Breakaway after breakaway after breakaway is not what I consider entertaining hockey. One more thing. The possible addition of a shootout is absurd. While it will artificially add 2 or 3 goals a game in situations where there would normally be a tie, it is an insulting way to steal a game from a less talented team who just got done grinding out a hard fought tie with a better team. If you put teams like L.A.(with injuries), Minnesota, or Nashville, against the majority of teams in the league in a shootout, they are going to lose, because they simply do not have the sniper type players that a team like the Wings or the Avs have. San Jose would also be nowhere if this rule had been in place this season, and if any team deserves to be where they are at right now, it is the Sharks.

02-17-2004, 08:54 AM	#12 (permalink)
Tirian Addict Location: Canada	ditto to much of what has already been said. in addition to the goalies pads getting smaller, I'd also suggest making the catching mit a little smaller. Like my old brown leather one from the 70's. ya it requires great skill and little luck to catch a puck in that thing. ok maybe not that small, but they should not allow the butterfly nets currently in use either! and at the risk of repeating myself - the day the NHL starts using the shootout is the day I retire as a hockey fan!!!!!!!

02-17-2004, 09:21 AM	#13 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	me too i can't stand the idea of a shoot out all that is accomplished is that one team was luckier than the other on that particular day __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-21-2004, 04:32 AM	#14 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	The size thing is great, the tag-up offside should help keep game times to a reasonable limit, the moving the net back might help or might not can't say at the moment, but the goalie behind the net thing is stupid and I totally disagree with it. While it would help Vancouver more than most teams (since Cloutier can't handle a puck worth shit) I think that it would take out a huge part of most goalies' games. I also hate the new penalty shot rule they put in, they should have to have control of it in order for a penalty shot to be called.

02-21-2004, 06:36 AM	#15 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Clouthier is one of the best puck handling goaltenders in the NHL __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-21-2004, 07:45 PM	#16 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	Cloutier couldn't handle a friggin beachball lol. In order to get anywhere while we still have the players capable of making a run we need to get a REAL goalie, and soon. At the moment our farm system is looking pretty poor, so this may be the last time for a long while that we actually have a chance, but it's all wasted if we keep Cloutier as our starter.

02-21-2004, 08:19 PM	#17 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Clouthier is a fine goaltender fans are fickle and when he plays bad people complain, I hope Burke doesn't jump the gun, wait till the play-offs. Look at my Lefa they're stuck with Trevor Kidd for a back-up, Trevor freakin Kidd. Don't put down Clouthier too much because the same fans that are doing that now will be hopping back on the bandwagon when play picks up. And why are people people complaining and blaming Clouthier for the 4-5-0-1 record in the last 10 because I'm sure there are more players on the team than him. Be thankful the Canucks are 6 points out of first in the NHL last time I looked that's a pretty good spot to be in just after the all-star break. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-23-2004, 01:32 AM	#18 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	I'm not blaming him for it, the whole team has been playing like shit lately, but I've been anti-Cloutier for years now, even when the Canucks were playing extremely well, so no bandwagon here And I'm damn thankful Canucks are doing so well, it sucked to be a Canucks fan in the late 90's and I was mocked for it harsh, now you see people joining the bandwagon in cities all over the place.

02-23-2004, 06:30 AM	#19 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	You should have tried bieng a Leafs fan in the 80's it wasn't pretty. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-23-2004, 09:05 PM	#20 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	I bet hehe Still, we both had it better than a Rangers fan for 50-something years, eh?

02-23-2004, 11:04 PM	#21 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Those poor Rangers fans they waited so long and they will probably have to wait another 50 some years the way thing are going. What's this about the NHL wanting the blue and red lines too be like 2 feet thick or somethjing like that, that's just insane would that ever be distracting to be watching a game with these big ass lines. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-24-2004, 12:15 AM	#22 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	LOL I couldn't see the point of those either, it's gonna start looking like a French flag down there

02-24-2004, 05:34 AM	#23 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I never thought about it looking like the French flag down on the rink, what was it I heard about giving the goalies another blocker instead of a trapper WTF is the NHL smoking and I don't think it's green. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

02-27-2004, 01:43 AM	#24 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	LOL I heard that one too, I would pity the poor guys who spent so much work perfecting their glove saves only to have it go to waste. While I like the fact they are trying to do something to save the league, there are too many REALLY way out there ideas floating around.

02-27-2004, 07:36 AM	#25 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I agree the ideas are way out there, and they have to figure something out to save thre league __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder