NBA Defensive Player of the Year - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

NoseyJoe · 01-24-2004, 08:19 PM

I believe it HAS to be Big Ben Wallace again, although there are some who believe it should go to Ron Artest. Would anyone like to disagree?

ReggErving · 01-27-2004, 07:01 PM

I would love to disagree, the man didn't deserve it last year and unless Artest thumb is going to fall off he won't get it this year. The only thing Wallace has going for him is that is hitting the boards and not actually the leading rebounder right now. Artest averages more steals a game and basically folks, people don't score on him like they do Big Ben. Wallace is a good player and I think a better player this year because he is putting offesive numbers up but defensively he hasn't done it to compare to Ron. Artest would have made it along with an All-Star nod if it wasn't for the bad rep he got. Things are different this year.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-27-2004, 07:19 PM

Artest all the way, he D's up people and shuts them down. All Wallace does is stand in the paint like a goon cleaning up the boards.

dragon2fire · 01-28-2004, 12:45 AM

ron is playing just plain sick d right now

its a big part of the pacers success

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 07:23 AM

People around the league complain about Artest's tenacity. I think that spells it out right there. He is the best at keeping his body (not his hands) between opponents and the basket.

cactus_bangers · 01-28-2004, 11:24 AM

damn its tough to call. i agree that artest is a badass defender who really hinders whoever he's covering. then again, wallace is a great defender as well - he makes opponents think twice about driving the lane, and he's great at swatting down shots and pulling boards. im gonna have to go with wallace, with artest a close second. i also like bruce bowen, doug christie, and andrei kirilenko in this one.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cactus_bangers
damn its tough to call. i agree that artest is a badass defender who really hinders whoever he's covering. then again, wallace is a great defender as well - he makes opponents think twice about driving the lane, and he's great at swatting down shots and pulling boards. im gonna have to go with wallace, with artest a close second. i also like bruce bowen, doug christie, and andrei kirilenko in this one.

When examining Defense are we required to factor rebounding into the equation? If so we must factor some of Artest's other bright spots (ball handling, shooting..etc etc).

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-28-2004, 01:06 PM

I don't like Wallace because he has no fundamentals or finese(sp). He just plays off the basket and pads his stats. I'm not taking away from him that he is an insane athlete, but he is no where near as defensively sound as Artest. Plus when you look at the scheme of the Eastern conference, it is all about the guards, the likes of Pierce, Mcgrady, Lebron, Rip Hamilton, Vinsanity, Allan Houston, and Mike Redd. Those are the players that Artest is D'ing up night after night, not some second rate Forward or Center such as Wallace.

Also looking at box scores for 2 of the last 4 games (where Detriot is 1-3) when Wallace's was playing his would be rival's at the 4-5 spot, he hasn't done shit... he doesn't slow people down.

KG dropped 22 pts 17 boards 2 blks and 6 dimes
Jermaine O Neal dropped 28pts 15 boards 4 blks

I will give him that Duncan (17 and 10) and Shareef (14 and 4) were held down soundly.

Halx · 01-28-2004, 01:40 PM

i'd like to give the award to the whole Lakers starting lineup. When they have all 5 of their main guys playing... the whole team acts as one unit and you can't fucking score on 'em

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-28-2004, 01:42 PM

Looks like the Diesel is coming back...

NoseyJoe · 01-28-2004, 08:41 PM

I think people get down on Big Ben because he doesnt guard the likes of T-Mac and Kobe. However, he guards players like KG and Tim Duncan who are almost 6 inches taller than him, and he routinely shuts them down. I still vote for Wallace.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-28-2004, 09:00 PM

Routinely shuts them down?

3 games vs. Jermaine O' Neal this season, O'Neal has dropped 69 pts 41 boards and 11 blks.

KG dropped 22 pts 17 boards 2 blks and 6 dimes the only time they've played this season.

Wallace isn't a consistent defensive stopper, he is just a board goon.

cactus_bangers · 01-29-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bookman
When examining Defense are we required to factor rebounding into the equation? If so we must factor some of Artest's other bright spots (ball handling, shooting..etc etc).

yes you do factor in rebounding....thats why there exists a "defensive rebounding" statistic...of which wallace ranks 3rd. ball-handling and shooting dont factor in, defensively.

and mojo, how can you say that wallace "pads his stats"? its his job to lurk in the paint, grab boards and knock down some shots. you dont accuse a player like peja of "padding his stats" because he hangs around the perimeter taking jumpers do you?

powerclown · 01-29-2004, 02:42 PM

Easily the best defensive player since another Piston, Dennis Rodman.

[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PwDiAkUTOGtrIU3NRrk81uNIhRuZQcrLFyyVRUb8RHnNbljkq9elYCVAwQfkFOlrco8*1HLx4z8IzyRCaxWDsrGbAgHPdJRe/gotw.jpg?dc=4675457639149332201[/IMG]

============================================
Total Rebounds:
Wallace: 587
Artest: 236

Rebounds per Game
Wallace: 13.0 (Offensive: 4.8, Defensive: 8.9)
Artest: 5.2 (Offensive: 1.3, Defensive: 4.0)

Blocks
Wallace: 140
Artest: 37

Blocks
Wallace: 140
Artest: 37

Blocks
Wallace: 140
Artest: 37

Steals
Artest: 94
Wallace: 82

Efficiency Rating: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G
Wallace: 21.27
Artest: 16.80

Double Doubles:
Wallace: 20
Artest: 7

/fanboy

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-29-2004, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cactus_bangers
yes you do factor in rebounding....thats why there exists a "defensive rebounding" statistic...of which wallace ranks 3rd. ball-handling and shooting dont factor in, defensively.

and mojo, how can you say that wallace "pads his stats"? its his job to lurk in the paint, grab boards and knock down some shots. you dont accuse a player like peja of "padding his stats" because he hangs around the perimeter taking jumpers do you?

Artest bodies up his man, Wallace plays off and then lunges for the kill. Two very different styles of defense. Also I don't see how the efficency rating hurts Artest. Wallace sucks on offense, he gets limited touches and doesn't handle the ball, he isn't there to take shots. Artest being a well rounded player handles the ball and is expected to take shots.

I'm not knocking Wallace, all I'm saying is that as far as the East goes Artest guards better players day in day out.

thephuse · 01-29-2004, 06:32 PM

who cares?.. NBA is all about offense

sixate · 01-29-2004, 06:53 PM

It's gonna come down to Artest and Wallace. You can't say that because Wallace gets more boards he's a better defender. He's a better rebounder. He should get more boards and blocks, he's a fucking center! Artest gets the best player on the other team every single night, and he never gets burned on D. There's no good big men in the East so Wallace can roam and do whatever he wants. They each have two different styles of D, and that's because they play different positions on the floor. I'd take Artest over Wallace any day of the week. Having Big Ben on your team is like playing with 4 guys on offense. So IMO that nullifies his D.

Nimbletoe · 01-29-2004, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Wallace sucks on offense, he gets limited touches and doesn't handle the ball, he isn't there to take shots. Artest being a well rounded player handles the ball and is expected to take shots.

Last I read, this is a thread about the NBA defensive player of the year. What does taking shots have to do with defense?

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-29-2004, 08:08 PM

Someone was knocking Artest about efficency. I was pointing out how not only Wallace can't score, but he doesn't get any touches. So the argument about overall efficency is moot. PLus I would hope that he grabbed more boards. Anyday that a 2-3 out boards a 4-5 is a sad pathetic day for the sport of basketball.

ReggErving · 01-29-2004, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixate
It's gonna come down to Artest and Wallace. You can't say that because Wallace gets more boards he's a better defender. He's a better rebounder. He should get more boards and blocks, he's a fucking center! Artest gets the best player on the other team every single night, and he never gets burned on D. There's no good big men in the East so Wallace can roam and do whatever he wants. They each have two different styles of D, and that's because they play different positions on the floor. I'd take Artest over Wallace any day of the week. Having Big Ben on your team is like playing with 4 guys on offense. So IMO that nullifies his D.

Thank you sixate. Benji doesn't shut players down like Ron does. Wallace is a center and you know the Shaq and Duncan would chew him up.

powerclown · 01-29-2004, 09:41 PM

Quote:

There's no good big men in the East so Wallace can roam and do whatever he wants.

You must have missed the Pistons/Timberwolves game the other night. Wallace did a damn good job guarding Garnett, holding him to 8-23 shooting, and had an absolutely awesome block on Garnett late in the game, that Garnett gave him props for right after it happened. Phenomenal game too, T-Wolves won 80-79.

Quote:

Benji doesn't shut players down like Ron does. Wallace is a center and you know the Shaq and Duncan would chew him up.

Wallace switches between forward & center, Memet Okur is the Piston's true center. Trust me, Wallace shuts players down, he usually dominates them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-2nd OVERALL (East & West) in #votes, 2004 NBA All-Star Game.
-2002-03 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
-2001-02 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
-Named to the NBA All-Defensive team in 2001-02
-Named by USA Basketball as a member of the USA team that will compete at the World Basketball Championships in Indiana during the 2002 summer
-One of four players in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks during the same season (01-02) - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1975-76, Bill Walton 1976-77 and Hakeem Olajuwon 1989-90
-Led NBA in rebounds and blocks in 2001-02
-Set a franchise record for blocks (278) in a season (2001-02) - Bob Lanier had 247 in 1973-74

Oh, and Wallace just got his 20th double-double of the year against Boston on Wed., scoring 14, with 15 rebounds.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-29-2004, 09:53 PM

If you call 22 pts 17 boards 2 blks and 6 dimes shutting down then you have no idea how the sport works. KG is the Ticket and the MVP. Wallace can't touch him.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-29-2004, 09:54 PM

Oh yeah and KG just got his 38th double double of the season. Wallace wishes he was half the player that the Big Ticket is.

Stat line!

to date:

KG:
1075 pts 621 boards 227 assists 57 steals 99 blks and 114 TO's...

Wallace
439 pts 587 boards 93 assits 82 steals 140 blks 61 To's

To date Wolves record:
31-13

Detriot
30-16

Big Ticket > Big Ben

powerclown · 01-29-2004, 10:50 PM

Quote:

If you call 22 pts 17 boards 2 blks and 6 dimes shutting down then you have no idea how the sport works. KG is the Ticket and the MVP. Wallace can't touch him.

I never said he shut down KG and I never said he was a better overall player than KG.

What I'm saying is he should definitely be considered for Defensive Player of the Year.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-29-2004, 11:04 PM

You said wallace held him... I construced that as you saying he D'd him up. All I was doing was making a point to the contrary. Sorry, my bad.

Nimbletoe · 01-29-2004, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReggErving
Wallace is a center and you know the Shaq and Duncan would chew him up.

Did you see the recent Pistons/Spurs game, where Wallace did indeed shut Duncan down? I did!

cactus_bangers · 01-30-2004, 08:30 AM

c'mon guys, you CANNOT deny rebounding as a defensive skill. wallace grabs around 9 defensive boards a game. this means he eliminates a potential 9 offensive boards for the opposing team, which means he eliminates a potential 18 or so points for the opposing team.

you also cannot deny that he helps shut down players in the post. people keep mentioning that KG, shaq, and duncan routinely have their way with wallace - well, they should; they're all potential MVP candidates, after all. look at how he shuts down most forwards in the game. just because big ben gets dominated by the greatest forwards in the game doesnt mean he can't play D - artest still gets abused by the likes of michael redd, T-mac, pierce, iverson...yet he's still a great defensive player.

also, look at the intangible wallace brings to the court - guards are less likely to penetrate the lane when they know wallace is in it. they're more likely to take a lower percentage outside shot.

Parker · 01-30-2004, 12:20 PM

I would also have to put my vote in for Ron Artest. He shuts people down day in and day out. Ben Wallace is a great rebounder and shot blocker, but he does not shut down his opponent night in and night out like Artest.

NoseyJoe · 01-30-2004, 03:03 PM

The thing here is that you guys are talking a lot about who he doesn't shut down. KG, TD, etc. However, when the Pistons play those teams it is routinely Mehmet Okur who guards those players, and when he begins to slip, Big Ben comes in and shuts them DOWN!!!

powerclown · 01-30-2004, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Ben Wallace is a great rebounder and shot blocker, but he does not shut down his opponent night in and night out like Artest.

Are you on crack?

This is exactly what Wallace is known for, playing his a$$ off for all 82 games. This is the reason he is the Pistons' team leader, the reason he is the Defender he is, and the reason he was #2 in the AllStar vote.

ReggErving · 01-30-2004, 05:33 PM

This is exactly what Wallace is known for, playing his a$$ off for all 82 games. This is the reason he is the Pistons' team leader, the reason he is the Defender he is, and the reason he was #2 in the AllStar vote.

[/B][/QUOTE]

He really isn't that great and you can't use that #2 stat in All-Star votes because we know that the All-Star votes are based on nothing but popularity than performance.

powerclown · 01-30-2004, 06:03 PM

^^^

nuff said.

powerclown · 01-30-2004, 06:49 PM

DETROIT 90 - TORONTO 89 OT

Great game...Big Ben blocks Carter's shot for the win..

Jephree · 01-31-2004, 10:09 AM

artest

Bigt6909 · 02-04-2004, 06:02 PM

Ron Artest is a piece of crap. Granted he is a good defender and it will come down to him and ben wallace, it's gonna be ben to win it AGAIN.

For those of you who said that he doesnt deserve the award let me know what kind of drugs you're taking and where i can get some. He is a force in the lane. Think about all the time that he comes out of no where to block a shot that he isn't even gaurding. He is all over the court and a great defender of the entire team.

sixate · 02-05-2004, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bigt6909
Ron Artest is a piece of crap. Granted he is a good defender and it will come down to him and ben wallace, it's gonna be ben to win it AGAIN.

For those of you who said that he doesnt deserve the award let me know what kind of drugs you're taking and where i can get some. He is a force in the lane. Think about all the time that he comes out of no where to block a shot that he isn't even gaurding. He is all over the court and a great defender of the entire team.

The other night Carlos Boozer lit him up for 21 points and 15 boards. He also guarded Z a bit, and he had 15 points, 9 boards, and 5 blocks...... He didn't stop shit all night long, and the Cavs won.

cactus_bangers · 02-05-2004, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixate
The other night Carlos Boozer lit him up for 21 points and 15 boards. He also guarded Z a bit, and he had 15 points, 9 boards, and 5 blocks...... He didn't stop shit all night long, and the Cavs won.

without big ben in the paint boozer would have had 20 boards and Z would have had 14 or so....instead he outboarded them both with 17 rebounds of his own, and added 5 of his own blocks. lebron james, cleveland's slasher, was held to 12 points with a horrible shooting percentage...guess who took out his lane penetration. also cleveland, one of the top rebounding teams in the league, allowed detroit to outrebound them, and grab more total boards than they usually let opponents get.

big ben.

Nimbletoe · 02-05-2004, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixate
The other night Carlos Boozer lit him up for 21 points and 15 boards. He also guarded Z a bit, and he had 15 points, 9 boards, and 5 blocks...... He didn't stop shit all night long, and the Cavs won.

Pistons were without Okur that night, who would have been on one of them. Of course their big guys are gonna have decent nights if we're missing our 2nd best big guy.

sixate · 02-05-2004, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cactus_bangers
without big ben in the paint boozer would have had 20 boards and Z would have had 14 or so....instead he outboarded them both with 17 rebounds of his own, and added 5 of his own blocks. lebron james, cleveland's slasher, was held to 12 points with a horrible shooting percentage...guess who took out his lane penetration. also cleveland, one of the top rebounding teams in the league, allowed detroit to outrebound them, and grab more total boards than they usually let opponents get.

big ben.

And he(Wallace) only had 5 points, and shot 25% from the field and the foul line. So I guess that Boozer should be considered defensive player of the year also, right?

Z backed his ass down and scored on him easily three times late in the fourth quarter. Wallace had no chance, and if he was so good why did Boozer score so much. I would take Boozer any day of the week over Ben.

But that's just my opinion. I hate one dimensional players.

cactus_bangers · 02-06-2004, 08:38 AM

wallace had to body up not only boozer all night, but Z, who is about half a foot taller than wallace, and has even greater reach. so yeah, wallace shouldnt have shut him down. he's a natural PF, not a center, so had okur not been out, wallace wouldn't have had to play Z as much.

wallace isnt a scorer at all. his 10 points he averages per game come mostly from random offensive putbacks, a foul shot here and there, and a couple FGs inside. so yeah, boozer didnt shut him down, since there's not much to shut down.

put one guy (no matter how good) on 2 big men, especially working in the post, and they're gonna go a little wild on him.

although this brings up something.....whats going on with boozer? damn he's been blowing up lately...

01-24-2004, 08:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
NoseyJoe Tilted Location: Michigan	NBA Defensive Player of the Year I believe it HAS to be Big Ben Wallace again, although there are some who believe it should go to Ron Artest. Would anyone like to disagree? __________________ "the only difference between suicide and martyrdom is press coverage." -- Chuck Palahniuk

01-27-2004, 07:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
ReggErving Addict	I would love to disagree, the man didn't deserve it last year and unless Artest thumb is going to fall off he won't get it this year. The only thing Wallace has going for him is that is hitting the boards and not actually the leading rebounder right now. Artest averages more steals a game and basically folks, people don't score on him like they do Big Ben. Wallace is a good player and I think a better player this year because he is putting offesive numbers up but defensively he hasn't done it to compare to Ron. Artest would have made it along with an All-Star nod if it wasn't for the bad rep he got. Things are different this year. __________________ ...sitting on your bed with a samauri pose.

01-27-2004, 07:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Artest all the way, he D's up people and shuts them down. All Wallace does is stand in the paint like a goon cleaning up the boards. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-28-2004, 01:06 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I don't like Wallace because he has no fundamentals or finese(sp). He just plays off the basket and pads his stats. I'm not taking away from him that he is an insane athlete, but he is no where near as defensively sound as Artest. Plus when you look at the scheme of the Eastern conference, it is all about the guards, the likes of Pierce, Mcgrady, Lebron, Rip Hamilton, Vinsanity, Allan Houston, and Mike Redd. Those are the players that Artest is D'ing up night after night, not some second rate Forward or Center such as Wallace. Also looking at box scores for 2 of the last 4 games (where Detriot is 1-3) when Wallace's was playing his would be rival's at the 4-5 spot, he hasn't done shit... he doesn't slow people down. KG dropped 22 pts 17 boards 2 blks and 6 dimes Jermaine O Neal dropped 28pts 15 boards 4 blks I will give him that Duncan (17 and 10) and Shareef (14 and 4) were held down soundly. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 01-28-2004 at 01:34 PM..

01-28-2004, 01:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	i'd like to give the award to the whole Lakers starting lineup. When they have all 5 of their main guys playing... the whole team acts as one unit and you can't fucking score on 'em __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-28-2004, 12:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
dragon2fire Junkie	ron is playing just plain sick d right now its a big part of the pacers success

01-28-2004, 07:23 AM	#5 (permalink)
Bookman Insane	People around the league complain about Artest's tenacity. I think that spells it out right there. He is the best at keeping his body (not his hands) between opponents and the basket.

01-28-2004, 11:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
cactus_bangers Upright	damn its tough to call. i agree that artest is a badass defender who really hinders whoever he's covering. then again, wallace is a great defender as well - he makes opponents think twice about driving the lane, and he's great at swatting down shots and pulling boards. im gonna have to go with wallace, with artest a close second. i also like bruce bowen, doug christie, and andrei kirilenko in this one.

01-28-2004, 01:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Looks like the Diesel is coming back... __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-28-2004, 08:41 PM	#11 (permalink)
NoseyJoe Tilted Location: Michigan	I think people get down on Big Ben because he doesnt guard the likes of T-Mac and Kobe. However, he guards players like KG and Tim Duncan who are almost 6 inches taller than him, and he routinely shuts them down. I still vote for Wallace. __________________ "the only difference between suicide and martyrdom is press coverage." -- Chuck Palahniuk

01-28-2004, 09:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Routinely shuts them down? 3 games vs. Jermaine O' Neal this season, O'Neal has dropped 69 pts 41 boards and 11 blks. KG dropped 22 pts 17 boards 2 blks and 6 dimes the only time they've played this season. Wallace isn't a consistent defensive stopper, he is just a board goon. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-29-2004, 02:42 PM	#14 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	GET OUT THE WAY!!! Easily the best defensive player since another Piston, Dennis Rodman. [IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PwDiAkUTOGtrIU3NRrk81uNIhRuZQcrLFyyVRUb8RHnNbljkq9elYCVAwQfkFOlrco81HLx4z8IzyRCaxWDsrGbAgHPdJRe/gotw.jpg?dc=4675457639149332201[/IMG] ============================================ Total Rebounds: Wallace: 587 Artest: 236 Rebounds per Game Wallace: 13.0 (Offensive: 4.8, Defensive: 8.9) Artest: 5.2 (Offensive: 1.3, Defensive: 4.0) Blocks Wallace: 140 Artest: 37 Blocks Wallace: 140 Artest: 37 Blocks Wallace: 140 Artest: 37 Steals Artest: 94 Wallace: 82 Efficiency Rating: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G Wallace: 21.27 Artest: 16.80 Double Doubles: Wallace: 20 Artest: 7 /fanboy Last edited by powerclown; 01-29-2004 at 02:51 PM..*

01-29-2004, 06:32 PM	#16 (permalink)
thephuse Psycho Location: NY	who cares?.. NBA is all about offense __________________ b000yahed up your w000pah!! Joygasm~!!

01-29-2004, 06:53 PM	#17 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	It's gonna come down to Artest and Wallace. You can't say that because Wallace gets more boards he's a better defender. He's a better rebounder. He should get more boards and blocks, he's a fucking center! Artest gets the best player on the other team every single night, and he never gets burned on D. There's no good big men in the East so Wallace can roam and do whatever he wants. They each have two different styles of D, and that's because they play different positions on the floor. I'd take Artest over Wallace any day of the week. Having Big Ben on your team is like playing with 4 guys on offense. So IMO that nullifies his D.

01-29-2004, 08:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Someone was knocking Artest about efficency. I was pointing out how not only Wallace can't score, but he doesn't get any touches. So the argument about overall efficency is moot. PLus I would hope that he grabbed more boards. Anyday that a 2-3 out boards a 4-5 is a sad pathetic day for the sport of basketball. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-29-2004, 09:53 PM	#22 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	If you call 22 pts 17 boards 2 blks and 6 dimes shutting down then you have no idea how the sport works. KG is the Ticket and the MVP. Wallace can't touch him. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-29-2004, 09:54 PM	#23 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Oh yeah and KG just got his 38th double double of the season. Wallace wishes he was half the player that the Big Ticket is. Stat line! to date: KG: 1075 pts 621 boards 227 assists 57 steals 99 blks and 114 TO's... Wallace 439 pts 587 boards 93 assits 82 steals 140 blks 61 To's To date Wolves record: 31-13 Detriot 30-16 Big Ticket > Big Ben __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 01-29-2004 at 09:59 PM..

01-29-2004, 11:04 PM	#25 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	You said wallace held him... I construced that as you saying he D'd him up. All I was doing was making a point to the contrary. Sorry, my bad. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-30-2004, 08:30 AM	#27 (permalink)
cactus_bangers Upright	c'mon guys, you CANNOT deny rebounding as a defensive skill. wallace grabs around 9 defensive boards a game. this means he eliminates a potential 9 offensive boards for the opposing team, which means he eliminates a potential 18 or so points for the opposing team. you also cannot deny that he helps shut down players in the post. people keep mentioning that KG, shaq, and duncan routinely have their way with wallace - well, they should; they're all potential MVP candidates, after all. look at how he shuts down most forwards in the game. just because big ben gets dominated by the greatest forwards in the game doesnt mean he can't play D - artest still gets abused by the likes of michael redd, T-mac, pierce, iverson...yet he's still a great defensive player. also, look at the intangible wallace brings to the court - guards are less likely to penetrate the lane when they know wallace is in it. they're more likely to take a lower percentage outside shot.

01-30-2004, 12:20 PM	#28 (permalink)
Parker Crazy	I would also have to put my vote in for Ron Artest. He shuts people down day in and day out. Ben Wallace is a great rebounder and shot blocker, but he does not shut down his opponent night in and night out like Artest.

01-30-2004, 03:03 PM	#29 (permalink)
NoseyJoe Tilted Location: Michigan	The thing here is that you guys are talking a lot about who he doesn't shut down. KG, TD, etc. However, when the Pistons play those teams it is routinely Mehmet Okur who guards those players, and when he begins to slip, Big Ben comes in and shuts them DOWN!!! __________________ "the only difference between suicide and martyrdom is press coverage." -- Chuck Palahniuk

01-30-2004, 05:33 PM	#31 (permalink)
ReggErving Addict	This is exactly what Wallace is known for, playing his a$$ off for all 82 games. This is the reason he is the Pistons' team leader, the reason he is the Defender he is, and the reason he was #2 in the AllStar vote. [/B][/QUOTE] He really isn't that great and you can't use that #2 stat in All-Star votes because we know that the All-Star votes are based on nothing but popularity than performance. __________________ ...sitting on your bed with a samauri pose.

01-30-2004, 06:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	^^^ nuff said.

01-30-2004, 06:49 PM	#33 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Friday Jan 30: Pistons v Raptors (@ Toronto) DETROIT 90 - TORONTO 89 OT Great game...Big Ben blocks Carter's shot for the win.. Last edited by powerclown; 01-30-2004 at 11:25 PM..

01-31-2004, 10:09 AM	#34 (permalink)
Jephree AKA: Boner Stabone Location: The one and only, SoCaLi	artest __________________ When's the next good swell in SoCal?

02-04-2004, 06:02 PM	#35 (permalink)
Bigt6909 Crazy Location: Michigan	Ron Artest is a piece of crap. Granted he is a good defender and it will come down to him and ben wallace, it's gonna be ben to win it AGAIN. For those of you who said that he doesnt deserve the award let me know what kind of drugs you're taking and where i can get some. He is a force in the lane. Think about all the time that he comes out of no where to block a shot that he isn't even gaurding. He is all over the court and a great defender of the entire team. __________________ Beer. Now there's a temporary solution. --Homer Simpson

02-06-2004, 08:38 AM	#40 (permalink)
cactus_bangers Upright	wallace had to body up not only boozer all night, but Z, who is about half a foot taller than wallace, and has even greater reach. so yeah, wallace shouldnt have shut him down. he's a natural PF, not a center, so had okur not been out, wallace wouldn't have had to play Z as much. wallace isnt a scorer at all. his 10 points he averages per game come mostly from random offensive putbacks, a foul shot here and there, and a couple FGs inside. so yeah, boozer didnt shut him down, since there's not much to shut down. put one guy (no matter how good) on 2 big men, especially working in the post, and they're gonna go a little wild on him. although this brings up something.....whats going on with boozer? damn he's been blowing up lately...