I KNOW that strikeouts are overrated... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

cheesemoney · 09-01-2003, 11:22 PM

I love to watch em. But they really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. They can actually hurt you. The only time that a strike out isn't just eye candy is when you have a runner on second or third with nobody out. In all other cases with baserunners, a 1 pitch groundball to an infielder is ideal (preferably hit hard).

I had an argument with a friend over the Cy young award this year. He still wants Halladay -- because he says halladay has a lot of K's. He says that that makes him the most dominating pitcher in the league. I told him that he'd have a hellova lot more complete games if he'd turned those k's into 1 or 2 pitch ground balls--helping his team win more.

What do you guys think? I know that they are fun. I remember going to see Nolan Ryan get his 3000th strike out when I was a little kid. Do you guys think that the world is changing and eyes are starting to open up regarding this K thing. Pitchers like Maddux are so successful due to their amazing control. He has an amazing K to BB ratio, which is a completely different (and more desirable) animal.

Cheese

Kurant · 09-02-2003, 04:45 AM

Greg Maddox. Nuff' said.

You don't need K's or B's or M's or w's. He's never been a big strikeout artist, just consistent, over the plate, accurate and one hell of a placement pitcher, and don't forget, one of the greatest of all time.

There is still 30 games left, alot of time to tell, Halladay had a strong outing yesterday, -1 ER -10k's -complete game. We'll see, at least 6-8 starts left for the guys with 4 man rotations, but, I vote Halladay myself.

But who am I to decide, hehe...

soxsfans · 09-02-2003, 01:26 PM

Halladay, Loiaza, and Hudson are pretty close in my book.

cheesemoney · 09-02-2003, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurant
Greg Maddox. Nuff' said.

You don't need K's or B's or M's or w's. He's never been a big strikeout artist, just consistent, over the plate, accurate and one hell of a placement pitcher, and don't forget, one of the greatest of all time.

There is still 30 games left, alot of time to tell, Halladay had a strong outing yesterday, -1 ER -10k's -complete game. We'll see, at least 6-8 starts left for the guys with 4 man rotations, but, I vote Halladay myself.

But who am I to decide, hehe...

Of course Halladay will have to lower his ERA a WHOLE POINT in order to be really considered with Hudson and Loiza.

AL9045 · 09-02-2003, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheesemoney
Of course Halladay will have to lower his ERA a WHOLE POINT in order to be really considered with Hudson and Loiza.

Well if neither the A's or the White Sox make it, Halladay has a better chance, whether he lowers it a point or not.

Sen · 09-02-2003, 08:49 PM

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that K's are overrated.

Cheesemoney said " In all other cases with baserunners, a 1 pitch groundball to an infielder is ideal (preferably hit hard)." I think this is an oversimplification. Of course, in an ideal world, they would turn the dp, but when the batter puts the bat on the ball, there's always a chance that, A: it will drop for a hit, or B: it will be a fly ball to the outfield resulting in a sacrifice.

By getting a K for the second out of an inning w/ a runner on 3rd, you greatly decrease the chances that the runner will score. Even if the next batter hits a ground ball, then the fielders only have to get one out, instead of turning 2. Furthermore, what if the pitcher follows up a 2nd out K w/ a 3rd out K? Then K's are VERY important and exhibit a pitcher's dominance.

djtestudo · 09-02-2003, 09:08 PM

I think a K is mostly to make an impression: the pitcher was able to get three pitches through the batter's ideal hitting zone, or by tricking the batter into swinging at one that isn't, without the batter putting the ball in play. They are practical in that you got the guy out without risking a fielding or throwing error.

I don't think they should be that important a stat, as they are considered part of the pitcher's "triple crown", but that they are more like home runs: impressive, valuable, but not of premier importance.

cheesemoney · 09-03-2003, 11:55 PM

Except that a homerun is great... it generates a run all on its own... a k is akin to a groundball to the pitcher. Its an out, nothing more, nothing less. It just tires your arm out a lot more.

Cheese

Panopticon · 09-04-2003, 11:42 AM

My picks for Cy Young are Loaiza in the AL and Mark Prior in the NL...

As far as strikeouts go, I think they are very important. I'd rather have some guy wiff than have him put a ball into play. You never know whats going to happen once that ball is in play. Like others have said, if there is a guy on third with no outs, he's going to score on almost any ball that is put into play. You need the K there. I don't think they are overrated at all.

madmann · 09-04-2003, 12:33 PM

Maddox isn't getting the strike zone he used to. He's used to getting the call on balls 4-6 inches off the outside corner. Guys had to swing at bad pitches when that happened.

madmann · 09-04-2003, 12:39 PM

And further more, I think walks are underrated. When a batter works the pitcher for a walk, it takes at least 4 pitches, usually more. Over the course of a season, baseball is a game of attrition. And it's the pitching staff that gets attrited.

348Dav · 09-04-2003, 09:45 PM

NL - Eric Gagne

AL - Loaiza

Gagne is unbelievable. If you have been to Dodger Stadium and seen him pitch, you know what i'm talking about. He toys with hitters, he can make them look horrible on any of his 3 devastating pitches. The atmosphere in the stadium is incredible when they open the bullpen door and he comes trotting out to "Welcome to the Jungle." Anybody who can get lazy SoCal Dodger fans off their ass should win the Cy Young.

BTW I am also a lazy SoCal Dodger fan so pardon my horrible bias.

cheesemoney · 09-04-2003, 10:01 PM

Gagne is amazing this year...
he still has lost EVERY game that he went into where the score was tied...
Smoltz has the most amazing era i've just about ever seen for a reliever. It should be interesting.
Jason Schmidt deserves the cy young. He has about 4 times as many innings as either of those 2.
And he's been rock solid.

djtestudo · 09-05-2003, 08:51 AM

Russ Ortiz. Best pitcher on a somewhat weak Atlanta staff. Going to lead the league in wins.

Gagne doesn't even think he should win the Cy Young, because it's more of a starter award. He does think he should be in the running for the MVP, though.

09-01-2003, 11:22 PM	#1 (permalink)
cheesemoney Loser Location: Paradise	I KNOW that strikeouts are overrated... I love to watch em. But they really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. They can actually hurt you. The only time that a strike out isn't just eye candy is when you have a runner on second or third with nobody out. In all other cases with baserunners, a 1 pitch groundball to an infielder is ideal (preferably hit hard). I had an argument with a friend over the Cy young award this year. He still wants Halladay -- because he says halladay has a lot of K's. He says that that makes him the most dominating pitcher in the league. I told him that he'd have a hellova lot more complete games if he'd turned those k's into 1 or 2 pitch ground balls--helping his team win more. What do you guys think? I know that they are fun. I remember going to see Nolan Ryan get his 3000th strike out when I was a little kid. Do you guys think that the world is changing and eyes are starting to open up regarding this K thing. Pitchers like Maddux are so successful due to their amazing control. He has an amazing K to BB ratio, which is a completely different (and more desirable) animal. Cheese

09-02-2003, 08:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sen Insane Location: Midwest	I'm not sure I agree with the premise that K's are overrated. Cheesemoney said " In all other cases with baserunners, a 1 pitch groundball to an infielder is ideal (preferably hit hard)." I think this is an oversimplification. Of course, in an ideal world, they would turn the dp, but when the batter puts the bat on the ball, there's always a chance that, A: it will drop for a hit, or B: it will be a fly ball to the outfield resulting in a sacrifice. By getting a K for the second out of an inning w/ a runner on 3rd, you greatly decrease the chances that the runner will score. Even if the next batter hits a ground ball, then the fielders only have to get one out, instead of turning 2. Furthermore, what if the pitcher follows up a 2nd out K w/ a 3rd out K? Then K's are VERY important and exhibit a pitcher's dominance. __________________ "I want to announce my presence with authority!" "You want to what?" "I want to announce my presence with authority!!"

09-02-2003, 09:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I think a K is mostly to make an impression: the pitcher was able to get three pitches through the batter's ideal hitting zone, or by tricking the batter into swinging at one that isn't, without the batter putting the ball in play. They are practical in that you got the guy out without risking a fielding or throwing error. I don't think they should be that important a stat, as they are considered part of the pitcher's "triple crown", but that they are more like home runs: impressive, valuable, but not of premier importance. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

09-04-2003, 11:42 AM	#9 (permalink)
Panopticon Psycho	My picks for Cy Young are Loaiza in the AL and Mark Prior in the NL... As far as strikeouts go, I think they are very important. I'd rather have some guy wiff than have him put a ball into play. You never know whats going to happen once that ball is in play. Like others have said, if there is a guy on third with no outs, he's going to score on almost any ball that is put into play. You need the K there. I don't think they are overrated at all. __________________ .:Panopticon:.

09-05-2003, 08:51 AM	#14 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Russ Ortiz. Best pitcher on a somewhat weak Atlanta staff. Going to lead the league in wins. Gagne doesn't even think he should win the Cy Young, because it's more of a starter award. He does think he should be in the running for the MVP, though. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

09-02-2003, 04:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	Greg Maddox. Nuff' said. You don't need K's or B's or M's or w's. He's never been a big strikeout artist, just consistent, over the plate, accurate and one hell of a placement pitcher, and don't forget, one of the greatest of all time. There is still 30 games left, alot of time to tell, Halladay had a strong outing yesterday, -1 ER -10k's -complete game. We'll see, at least 6-8 starts left for the guys with 4 man rotations, but, I vote Halladay myself. But who am I to decide, hehe...

09-02-2003, 01:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
soxsfans Junkie	Halladay, Loiaza, and Hudson are pretty close in my book.

09-03-2003, 11:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
cheesemoney Loser Location: Paradise	Except that a homerun is great... it generates a run all on its own... a k is akin to a groundball to the pitcher. Its an out, nothing more, nothing less. It just tires your arm out a lot more. Cheese

09-04-2003, 12:33 PM	#10 (permalink)
madmann Upright	Maddox isn't getting the strike zone he used to. He's used to getting the call on balls 4-6 inches off the outside corner. Guys had to swing at bad pitches when that happened.

09-04-2003, 12:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
madmann Upright	And further more, I think walks are underrated. When a batter works the pitcher for a walk, it takes at least 4 pitches, usually more. Over the course of a season, baseball is a game of attrition. And it's the pitching staff that gets attrited.

09-04-2003, 09:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
348Dav Tilted Location: Anaheim	NL - Eric Gagne AL - Loaiza Gagne is unbelievable. If you have been to Dodger Stadium and seen him pitch, you know what i'm talking about. He toys with hitters, he can make them look horrible on any of his 3 devastating pitches. The atmosphere in the stadium is incredible when they open the bullpen door and he comes trotting out to "Welcome to the Jungle." Anybody who can get lazy SoCal Dodger fans off their ass should win the Cy Young. BTW I am also a lazy SoCal Dodger fan so pardon my horrible bias.

09-04-2003, 10:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
cheesemoney Loser Location: Paradise	Gagne is amazing this year... he still has lost EVERY game that he went into where the score was tied... Smoltz has the most amazing era i've just about ever seen for a reliever. It should be interesting. Jason Schmidt deserves the cy young. He has about 4 times as many innings as either of those 2. And he's been rock solid.